UKC

I was reading a few article in last months Climber last night that I hadn't got around to yet, including Libby Peter's column "go for it!" about understanding guidebooks.

Now Ms. Peter is a UIAGM guide so normally I would prostrate myself in the snow in front of her and say "we're not worthy" many times, but reading her discussion of sport climbing grades it just seemed to me completely wrong. I don't have the magazine in front of me so I can't quote word for word, but basically she said sport climbing grades tell you the hardest move on the climb and this is a bit of problem as you don't know if it is one hard move off the ground followed by easy climbing to the chain, or an intense pitch where every move is just as hard as the last.

I have for over a decade understood that the sport grade are the opposite: they represents the difficulty of the whole pitch so that routes with the same grade could have moves of quite different levels of difficulty: i.e. it is more like the UK adjective grade than the tech grade.

This was most clearly explained to me by two French brothers who we climbed with a bit in Lofoten some years ago, both who climbed 8a and who had put up hundreds of sports routes in France. They said to grade a new route they think the best way is to climb the route and as you clip the chain - that is when you grade it - your first impression that encompasses how hard the moves have been, how long it is, whether it is sustained or has rests etc.

So am I totally wrong? Or is Libby? Or amongst the world sport climbing community is this still a subject of discussion?

Presumably the editor of Climber must agree with her or he would have edited that paragraph? So that would seem to suggest that so far I'm in the minority.

In reply to TobyA:

Don't know if this is of any help:

http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=149

DJ

In reply to TobyA:

I agree with you and also noticed this error in Libby's column. An f6a could mean one hard move on a short climb or 30 easier moves with no rests. 30 moves of similar standard to the short f6a would be f7a.

In reply to TobyA:

My understanding is that you are correct rather than Libby Peter - the sports grade is for the route (well pitch) rather than the move. As you say, they are closer to the UK adjectival grade than the UK technical grade, though without the uncertainty/excitement of not knowing where the gear is.

The one issue with using a single scale for grading a route is that you don't know if the route is sustained or just has a hard crux move. But then the UK technical grade is the other way round: it tells you how hard the hardest move is but not how sustained it is.

boB

In reply to TobyA:

I think she's applying UK tech grade logic to sport grades, and she's quite wrong. IMO.

Oh, I see Bob just said that!

In reply to TobyA:

I'm with you.

In reply to TobyA:
I choked on the same sentence - I would agree with you entirely!

In reply to TobyA:

for the record, i agree with tobes

In reply to TobyA:


Given that the editor of 'Climber' can't even be bothered to write an editorial that goes beyond a regurgitation of the contents page, I doubt he even looked at Libby's article.

In reply to Removed User:

Hang about - what about his regular anti-wind-'factory' rants?

In reply to Monk: I must say, as that always rankled with me, he hasn't done that too much recently as far as I remember. I do remember another blatant mistake in an editorial though and thinking "shouldn't a climbing mag editor know that!?" Annoyed now as I don't remember what it was, but it was something quite fundamental not some small piece of mountaineering historical trivia.

In reply to Monk: > Hang about - what about his regular anti-wind-'factory' rants?

He's doing his bit by re-cycling them.

Perhaps Libby Peters was getting confused by the American system which does grade for the hardest move on the route (as I understand it) and takes little account of sustained-ness.

In reply to TobyA: From what I've found, French grades are like Aus and US grades, giving a grade for overall difficulty of the climb, rather than the crux move. Grading cruxes seems to be very much a british thing, given the nature of a lot of the climbing.

In reply to Stig:


Is that true? I've not climbed in the US but I thought it was more like the french grade? What I've heard though is that Yanks tend to be good at cracks so we all think they are desperate but not as good at face climbing so people say that is overgraded.

Just in case anyone cares, no Finnish climber has ever been able to tell me whether Finnish grades are like french grades or like a UK tech grade. From personal experience I would say the latter.

In reply to TobyA:

Yep I sat up and noticed that (well, OK, I was reading it on the bog so was already sat up as it were) and I agree with you entirely.

In reply to JonC:


I was on the bog too! I might read all the feature articles in bed before going to sleep, or on the sofa etc. but are you like me then and leave all the other bits and bobs that aren't so interesting for bog reading? Apologies to John Arran, Libby and Neil Gresham, but comp reports, 'starting out' advice, and training columns tend to get demoted to three-weeks-later loo reading.

In reply to TobyA:

Apologies accepted, but I thought it worth pointing out that I haven't written a comp report for nearly two years. I write the Alps & Beyond pages now (although clearly not very memorably!)

In reply to john arran: Sorry John - Alps and Beyond is almost always my first read in actual fact - you had italian blokes with no shirts on standing in the snow if I remember right from last time, along with that very attractive French lady eyeing up a belay in Venezuela with a certain amount of trepidation. See I do remember!

In which case it must be Mrs. Arran who writes the comp reports now. My apologies to her instead!

In reply to TobyA:


Well you obviously look at the pictures anyway.

In reply to TobyA:

Ok I'll take the compliment, even if the attractive ladies and topless Italian men are more memorable than the literary content!

In reply to john arran: Everybody knows that it is the photos that sell the mags John! And she is particularly lovely as well, even in a helmet. I'll leave the girls to comment on the topless Italian men - my only thought was they didn't look like the spent their winters eating too many chip suppers in Fort William like some British climbers.

In reply to TobyA:
and by sportclimbing grades you mean french? because i've found it differs for countries or areas. and then every area (person) grades slightly differently.

some guidebooks will say something along the lines of "easy 5a, but for one crux", this often means it's more of a 4 but for one harder move. and by saying 6a oblig, that often mostly means that there's at least one crux in it. i would say she's wrong or you right, only that it isn't science and that it depends on the opener/area etc.

In reply to TobyA:

lol - i didn't notice the topless italian blokes, honest..

agreed re loo reading, that's when i slowly make my way through the more hundrum stuff though actually I do kind of like the training/starting out stuff. I have a specific toilet set aside for climbing mag reading purposes actually.