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Have noticed recently that areas with bouldering guides to them are becoming really trashed. The plantation in the Peak and Burdage boulders are examples of this.
One of the fun elements of bouldering used to be finding the problems in the first place - now its a bit easy - you just buy the guide and follow the well worn path.
One of the fun elements of bouldering used to be finding the problems in the first place - now its a bit easy - you just buy the guide and follow the well worn path.
In reply to robw007:
Not completely sure I agree. I was discussing that with a mate of mine regarding the landing of Cresent Arete. He was of the opinion that actually the landing below popular boulders had if anything improved since the mid 90s and the avent of the bouldering mat.
You could argue that problems are getting trashed but anything off the rock (apart from access path maybe) has actually benefited from the bouldering wave.
Also guides have made people aware of bouldering areas outside the usual honeypots of Plantation, Burbage South, Roaches boulders or Cratcliffe.
A.-
Not completely sure I agree. I was discussing that with a mate of mine regarding the landing of Cresent Arete. He was of the opinion that actually the landing below popular boulders had if anything improved since the mid 90s and the avent of the bouldering mat.
You could argue that problems are getting trashed but anything off the rock (apart from access path maybe) has actually benefited from the bouldering wave.
Also guides have made people aware of bouldering areas outside the usual honeypots of Plantation, Burbage South, Roaches boulders or Cratcliffe.
A.-
In reply to robw007:
I completely agree
> Have noticed recently that areas with bouldering guides to them are becoming really trashed. ...
>
> One of the fun elements of bouldering used to be finding the problems in the first place ...
>
> One of the fun elements of bouldering used to be finding the problems in the first place ...
I completely agree
In reply to ArnaudG:
I am not sure what you mean - are you saying that the areas around the bases of the problems are getting better??!!
Surely the areas around the Burbage problems for one (can't name them as I don't have a guide!) are getting really bad.
Mud and soil where there was grass only three or four years ago - this must be due to increased traffic.
I am not sure what you mean - are you saying that the areas around the bases of the problems are getting better??!!
Surely the areas around the Burbage problems for one (can't name them as I don't have a guide!) are getting really bad.
Mud and soil where there was grass only three or four years ago - this must be due to increased traffic.
In reply to robw007:
Yes that's what I mean (well actually what he meant). His theory is that with mats there is a less localised impact at the base of the problem. Hence the turf has some chance to recover.
Haven't been to any of the most popular area for absolutely ages so can't comment on Burbage/Plantation etc
A.-
Yes that's what I mean (well actually what he meant). His theory is that with mats there is a less localised impact at the base of the problem. Hence the turf has some chance to recover.
Haven't been to any of the most popular area for absolutely ages so can't comment on Burbage/Plantation etc
A.-
In reply to robw007: if anyone thinks bouldering areas arent trashed ..have a look at Almscliff.but then again if you didnt know it 30 or even 40 years ago maybe you dont think its trashed ..
In reply to robw007:
"Have noticed recently that areas with climbing guides to them are becoming really trashed. The plantation in the Peak and Burdage boulders are examples of this.
One of the fun elements of climbing used to be finding the problems in the first place - now its a bit easy - you just buy the guide and follow the well worn path."
The same argument can be made against climbing guides and crags, particularly those that are within close proximity to high density areas and have easy access. Look at how Bamford Edge has changed since access has been lifted, it'll end up like Stanage in due course (unfortunately). The simple answer is that people should go to more far-flung places that see less traffic.
"Have noticed recently that areas with climbing guides to them are becoming really trashed. The plantation in the Peak and Burdage boulders are examples of this.
One of the fun elements of climbing used to be finding the problems in the first place - now its a bit easy - you just buy the guide and follow the well worn path."
The same argument can be made against climbing guides and crags, particularly those that are within close proximity to high density areas and have easy access. Look at how Bamford Edge has changed since access has been lifted, it'll end up like Stanage in due course (unfortunately). The simple answer is that people should go to more far-flung places that see less traffic.
In reply to slacky:
I think Bamford should be taken out of guide books full stop, to preserve it. The routes should be un recorded and people should go explore when they go there and lose the obsession with recording everything.
Also, the burbage south boulders have got totally trashed since 2000 or so, there are just huge mudfields around them, maybe when bouldering becomes less fashionable then they'll recover
I think Bamford should be taken out of guide books full stop, to preserve it. The routes should be un recorded and people should go explore when they go there and lose the obsession with recording everything.
Also, the burbage south boulders have got totally trashed since 2000 or so, there are just huge mudfields around them, maybe when bouldering becomes less fashionable then they'll recover
In reply to slacky:
Yes, in which case they need good guidebooks in order to find them. Not necessarily definitive route lists guides, since these have been around for years without making the far-flung crags any busier, but inspiring guides that tell it like it is, are up-to-date and use plenty of images to show people what to expect when they get there.
Rather than blaming guidebooks for bouldering erosion (which is still years behind the erosion at popular crags BTW) it would be a better idea to encourage proper use of guidebooks to help spread the load.
Alan
> The simple answer is that people should go to more far-flung places that see less traffic.
Yes, in which case they need good guidebooks in order to find them. Not necessarily definitive route lists guides, since these have been around for years without making the far-flung crags any busier, but inspiring guides that tell it like it is, are up-to-date and use plenty of images to show people what to expect when they get there.
Rather than blaming guidebooks for bouldering erosion (which is still years behind the erosion at popular crags BTW) it would be a better idea to encourage proper use of guidebooks to help spread the load.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
You mean like a hybrid bouldering pad and guidebook? You can read it, sleep on it and fall off on to it!
> (In reply to slacky)
> [...]
>
> it would be a better idea to encourage proper use of guidebooks to help spread the load.
> [...]
>
> it would be a better idea to encourage proper use of guidebooks to help spread the load.
You mean like a hybrid bouldering pad and guidebook? You can read it, sleep on it and fall off on to it!
In reply to MattG:
Well do your bit and stay away, that will help ease the pressure and you won't need to see the state the place is in!
Chris
> (In reply to slacky)
>
> I think Bamford should be taken out of guide books full stop, to preserve it. The routes should be un recorded and people should go explore when they go there and lose the obsession with recording everything.
>
> I think Bamford should be taken out of guide books full stop, to preserve it. The routes should be un recorded and people should go explore when they go there and lose the obsession with recording everything.
Well do your bit and stay away, that will help ease the pressure and you won't need to see the state the place is in!
Chris
In reply to slacky:
Yep - know where youre coming from! Have thought about this - and the early guides actually described the climbs - but with bouldering its more about the area. The nature of bouldering - as opposed to cragging - is that there is more pressure on the environment around the base of the problems. Hence erosion - big time - in the most popular areas.
I really don't think this is he case with cragging quite so much.
Yep - know where youre coming from! Have thought about this - and the early guides actually described the climbs - but with bouldering its more about the area. The nature of bouldering - as opposed to cragging - is that there is more pressure on the environment around the base of the problems. Hence erosion - big time - in the most popular areas.
I really don't think this is he case with cragging quite so much.
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
I really can't see the logic behind this at all. Please don't get me wrong - I think the rockfax series are mega - have got most of them and love them to bits.
BUT - whats wrong with spending a bit of time going out and exploring - finding the odd boulder with some good problems on yourself? Putting a bit of effort in and getting the reward?
> (In reply to slacky)
> [...]
>
> Yes, in which case they need good guidebooks in order to find them.
> [...]
>
> Yes, in which case they need good guidebooks in order to find them.
I really can't see the logic behind this at all. Please don't get me wrong - I think the rockfax series are mega - have got most of them and love them to bits.
BUT - whats wrong with spending a bit of time going out and exploring - finding the odd boulder with some good problems on yourself? Putting a bit of effort in and getting the reward?
In reply to slacky:
Corby's in Northumberland, you can see the grooves caused by mass abseiling and top roping groups.
Corby's in Northumberland, you can see the grooves caused by mass abseiling and top roping groups.
In reply to robw007:
There is nothing wrong with it, and there is nothing stopping people doing it now and many still do, especially where bouldering is concerned. However the bulk of climbers won't do this, they never have and they never will. They will only go to the known spots.
The idea that removing bouldering guides would stop erosion is folly. It would only serve to increase erosion at the most popular areas since these would become the only places the majority of climbers would know about.
Guidebooks actually have a crucial role to play in spreading the load and that is introducing climbers to the second tier of crags and areas. The popular ones will always be busy, and these need covering as well for obvious reasons, but the lesser venues are the ones that people need to be told about since most climbers are not going to stumble on them whilst exploring. It just doesn't happen like that.
Alan
> I really can't see the logic behind this at all. Please don't get me wrong - I think the rockfax series are mega - have got most of them and love them to bits.
> BUT - whats wrong with spending a bit of time going out and exploring - finding the odd boulder with some good problems on yourself? Putting a bit of effort in and getting the reward?
> BUT - whats wrong with spending a bit of time going out and exploring - finding the odd boulder with some good problems on yourself? Putting a bit of effort in and getting the reward?
There is nothing wrong with it, and there is nothing stopping people doing it now and many still do, especially where bouldering is concerned. However the bulk of climbers won't do this, they never have and they never will. They will only go to the known spots.
The idea that removing bouldering guides would stop erosion is folly. It would only serve to increase erosion at the most popular areas since these would become the only places the majority of climbers would know about.
Guidebooks actually have a crucial role to play in spreading the load and that is introducing climbers to the second tier of crags and areas. The popular ones will always be busy, and these need covering as well for obvious reasons, but the lesser venues are the ones that people need to be told about since most climbers are not going to stumble on them whilst exploring. It just doesn't happen like that.
Alan
In reply to saph:
Agreed, the right-hand side of Corby's is suffering, the soft rock and sandy soil make it an unsuitable venue for mass visits.
BUT is it the fault of guidebook writers popularising the place, climbers or the schools/outdoor centres who use the same bit of the crag week in week out!
Chris
Agreed, the right-hand side of Corby's is suffering, the soft rock and sandy soil make it an unsuitable venue for mass visits.
BUT is it the fault of guidebook writers popularising the place, climbers or the schools/outdoor centres who use the same bit of the crag week in week out!
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Ah, Im staying away from everywhere at the moment coz I cant climb, so Im doing my bit right now
> (In reply to MattG)
> [...]
>
> Well do your bit and stay away, that will help ease the pressure and you won't need to see the state the place is in!
>
>
> Chris
> [...]
>
> Well do your bit and stay away, that will help ease the pressure and you won't need to see the state the place is in!
>
>
> Chris
Ah, Im staying away from everywhere at the moment coz I cant climb, so Im doing my bit right now
In reply to Chris Craggs: how many places see vast amounts of traffic now ..and how many times in the climbing press,have people writing articles about many spots increased the amount of traffic..could it be the fact writing about certain crags and getting paid for it leads to a,couldnt give a toss atitude...And dont get me wrong I read the articles and want to visit !!!!!!
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Just a rumour of course, but isn't Corby's going in some proposed new North East of England selected guide covering everything north of Leeds? It'd be nice if one of the major guidebook producers took a lead and omitted this overused crag on the grounds of environmental concern.
Just a rumour of course, but isn't Corby's going in some proposed new North East of England selected guide covering everything north of Leeds? It'd be nice if one of the major guidebook producers took a lead and omitted this overused crag on the grounds of environmental concern.
In reply to JDal:
As I suggested above, the overuse at Corby's has nothing to do with climbers - the right-hand side of the crag is used regularly as an abseiling venue and the area is suffering because of this.
A ban on abseiling would be more effective than not putting the place in a guide book! Perhaps a sign about the damage the area is suffering might also be a good idea?
Chris
As I suggested above, the overuse at Corby's has nothing to do with climbers - the right-hand side of the crag is used regularly as an abseiling venue and the area is suffering because of this.
A ban on abseiling would be more effective than not putting the place in a guide book! Perhaps a sign about the damage the area is suffering might also be a good idea?
Chris
In reply to ArnaudG:
I was amused to read in the recent BMC Roaches guide a comment along the lines that 'bouldering mats are environmentally friendly and should be used'. Even if there is an element of sense in this comment (I can accept that mats soften the effect of an individual landing, for example), it's a ludicrous post-facto rationalisation: the mats exist since people want to continually jump off problems with impunity.
If you wander round Stanage, for example, you see egregious misuse of mats: they are often dragged around - and indeed literally thrown around - with no thought for the impact on the ground underfoot. Of course, this is not the mats' fault - it's that of their owners.
> ... the opinion that actually the landing below popular boulders had if anything improved since the mid 90s and the advent of the bouldering mat.
I was amused to read in the recent BMC Roaches guide a comment along the lines that 'bouldering mats are environmentally friendly and should be used'. Even if there is an element of sense in this comment (I can accept that mats soften the effect of an individual landing, for example), it's a ludicrous post-facto rationalisation: the mats exist since people want to continually jump off problems with impunity.
If you wander round Stanage, for example, you see egregious misuse of mats: they are often dragged around - and indeed literally thrown around - with no thought for the impact on the ground underfoot. Of course, this is not the mats' fault - it's that of their owners.
In reply to robw007:
I suppose the basic question for me is why do you need a bouldering guide in the first place.
You see a boulder - try a problem. You grade it on whether you can do it or not.
Cragging guides are needed for route finding, access, serious etc - bouldering guides are not.
I suppose the basic question for me is why do you need a bouldering guide in the first place.
You see a boulder - try a problem. You grade it on whether you can do it or not.
Cragging guides are needed for route finding, access, serious etc - bouldering guides are not.
In reply to robw007:
Hi Rob,
Why do you need a bouldering guide?
Similar reasons to why you need any guide which is to get you to the problems you want to do.
If you are not after specific problems a simpler guide would be just directions to the bouldering area, then 'have at it'.
It is useful to bare in mind that most don't know where the bouldering areas are, it's only a few that are in the 'know'. And most don't have the time or the connections to find out. That's why we have guides, any guides. Well the fundamental reason, there is also the historical and image aspect of guidebooks that are alos attractive,
There is an addage that, "guns don't kill people, people do", not strictly true as you need both a gun and a person, the same with bouldering guides, "bouldering guides don't cause erosion, boulderers do"...or rather climbers do, but of course that isn't strictly true.......the whole climbing media, and I include this website and others, the climbing magazines, bouldering dvd's, climbing picture books,....and bouldering walls, top climbers, all of us in fact, the whole caboodle have popularised bouldering. Unfair just to say that it is just bouldering guides.
Anyway, it's a moot point as whatever you do you cannot stop the flow of information and apart from that if a bouldering area is good, the climbers will come, especially at the two areas you give as examples.
Mick
Hi Rob,
Why do you need a bouldering guide?
Similar reasons to why you need any guide which is to get you to the problems you want to do.
If you are not after specific problems a simpler guide would be just directions to the bouldering area, then 'have at it'.
It is useful to bare in mind that most don't know where the bouldering areas are, it's only a few that are in the 'know'. And most don't have the time or the connections to find out. That's why we have guides, any guides. Well the fundamental reason, there is also the historical and image aspect of guidebooks that are alos attractive,
There is an addage that, "guns don't kill people, people do", not strictly true as you need both a gun and a person, the same with bouldering guides, "bouldering guides don't cause erosion, boulderers do"...or rather climbers do, but of course that isn't strictly true.......the whole climbing media, and I include this website and others, the climbing magazines, bouldering dvd's, climbing picture books,....and bouldering walls, top climbers, all of us in fact, the whole caboodle have popularised bouldering. Unfair just to say that it is just bouldering guides.
Anyway, it's a moot point as whatever you do you cannot stop the flow of information and apart from that if a bouldering area is good, the climbers will come, especially at the two areas you give as examples.
Mick
In reply to Chris Craggs:
It saddened me the day I visited (a Sunday) and the place was crawling with groups. Apparently it's like that all the time.
Admittedly we visit semi-regularly as it's local but we try to do different routes
It saddened me the day I visited (a Sunday) and the place was crawling with groups. Apparently it's like that all the time.
Admittedly we visit semi-regularly as it's local but we try to do different routes
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Chris, wouldn't this just transfer the problem of group usage somewhere else? I don't know the crag involved, but realise as the sport becomes all the more popular all climbing locations are at a premium. Should'nt we agree to sacrifice certain areas to other users? (I'm not saying this about the crag involved in this thread), but there are certain crags that would fall into this catagory
Pete
> (In reply to JDal)
>
>
> A ban on abseiling would be more effective than not putting the place in a guide book! Perhaps a sign about the damage the area is suffering might also be a good idea?
>
> Chris
>
>
> A ban on abseiling would be more effective than not putting the place in a guide book! Perhaps a sign about the damage the area is suffering might also be a good idea?
>
> Chris
Chris, wouldn't this just transfer the problem of group usage somewhere else? I don't know the crag involved, but realise as the sport becomes all the more popular all climbing locations are at a premium. Should'nt we agree to sacrifice certain areas to other users? (I'm not saying this about the crag involved in this thread), but there are certain crags that would fall into this catagory
Pete
In reply to Pete Ford:
It would be a sad day to 'sacrifice' what is a lovely little crag. I don't know the area intimately, or how far the 'groups' come from, but I would have thought there must be either a quarry or disused railway bridge somewhere in the area where a lot less damage would be done.
Chris
It would be a sad day to 'sacrifice' what is a lovely little crag. I don't know the area intimately, or how far the 'groups' come from, but I would have thought there must be either a quarry or disused railway bridge somewhere in the area where a lot less damage would be done.
Chris
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Mick - I totally sympathise with your argument. Its sort of happened now - the monster is unleashed - but I (and many others) made a conscious decision to move closer to a climbing area so that I CAN go out and explore - find some problems and have a crack at them.
Why should climbing be like other consumerist sports - short cuts to the action are what seem to be required by people in a hurry and maybe the bouldering guides provide that short cut?
Mick - I totally sympathise with your argument. Its sort of happened now - the monster is unleashed - but I (and many others) made a conscious decision to move closer to a climbing area so that I CAN go out and explore - find some problems and have a crack at them.
Why should climbing be like other consumerist sports - short cuts to the action are what seem to be required by people in a hurry and maybe the bouldering guides provide that short cut?
> Why do you need a bouldering guide?
>
> Similar reasons to why you need any guide which is to get you to the problems you want to do.
>
> Similar reasons to why you need any guide which is to get you to the problems you want to do.
I just disagree with this. I can get to the problems I want to without a guide. Infact - I would rather get there without a guide - I appreciate the feeling of discovery - a feeling that we have little chance of experiencing these days.
In reply to robw007: Agreed but then so have guidebooks to doing routes using trad kit, etc. You could then start ranting about how magazine articles have started trashing the crags, maybe even how this website is responsible as well.
Maybe one solution to the whole issue is for people to no longer say where the decent climbing is anywhere and for people to explore. I guess this is what it was like before say the 1960's when info was passed on by word of mouth on the street/in the mountains.
It is a problem with any form of media - communicating to the masses is more effective but it has its negative sides.
In reality, we are all responsible for trashing the outdoor environment that we are responsible. I could rant for ages but I am as guilty as the next man.
Ben
Maybe one solution to the whole issue is for people to no longer say where the decent climbing is anywhere and for people to explore. I guess this is what it was like before say the 1960's when info was passed on by word of mouth on the street/in the mountains.
It is a problem with any form of media - communicating to the masses is more effective but it has its negative sides.
In reality, we are all responsible for trashing the outdoor environment that we are responsible. I could rant for ages but I am as guilty as the next man.
Ben
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Chris,
There are horrible little quarry's /crags in most 'climbing' areas which are despised (but probably used) by climbers, (we have all used them!), which could be developed for outdoor centre use. This would not be an attempt to segregate and isolate groups, but to try and
sort out some of the friction between climbers and schools/centres which concerns lots of threads on UKC. Have I hijacked this?,sorry!
Pete
Chris,
There are horrible little quarry's /crags in most 'climbing' areas which are despised (but probably used) by climbers, (we have all used them!), which could be developed for outdoor centre use. This would not be an attempt to segregate and isolate groups, but to try and
sort out some of the friction between climbers and schools/centres which concerns lots of threads on UKC. Have I hijacked this?,sorry!
Pete
In reply to robw007:
I am vaguely intrigued how you find 'the problems you want' with out a guide?
Chris
>
> I just disagree with this. I can get to the problems I want to without a guide. In fact - I would rather get there without a guide - I appreciate the feeling of discovery - a feeling that we have little chance of experiencing these days.
> I just disagree with this. I can get to the problems I want to without a guide. In fact - I would rather get there without a guide - I appreciate the feeling of discovery - a feeling that we have little chance of experiencing these days.
I am vaguely intrigued how you find 'the problems you want' with out a guide?
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Hey Chris - you go out on the moors - wander up to a boulder and check it out!
Some of the problems on the boulder will be 'problems I want' coz theyre good and fun - some will be too hard or not much good.
But then I'll have a chat about it in the pub with some mates and we'll go out again - or we'll try somewhere else - its really quite simple really.
Hey Chris - you go out on the moors - wander up to a boulder and check it out!
Some of the problems on the boulder will be 'problems I want' coz theyre good and fun - some will be too hard or not much good.
But then I'll have a chat about it in the pub with some mates and we'll go out again - or we'll try somewhere else - its really quite simple really.
In reply to robw007:
OK - I get it - nice a idea.
Want us to do a guide them - "The RockFax Guide to Remote Bouldering"?
Chris
OK - I get it - nice a idea.
Want us to do a guide them - "The RockFax Guide to Remote Bouldering"?
Chris
In reply to robw007:
The issue of bouldering erosion is one that has started to be addressed in the Peak - have you been to the Pebble or the Business boulder recently at Stanage? - as these boulders have had some work done on the landing areas with better drainage cut and the pits beneath filled in with aggregate.
BMC volunteers co-ordinated this work along with many willfull and only too happy to help climbers and it has been a great success..
I agree there are problems and although I wouldn't really blame guides - I think they do a good job in highlighting other areas (know the boulderng at Tegness?? - if not - you will do soon if you get the New BMC Froggatt guide out in the future...)
Also if you want to help - you can always come to the next BMC Peak Area meet and give your ideas on what we can do to stop the erosion - all thoughts are welcome...(its Thursday next week - at the Devonshire Arms - Pilsley)
cheers!
Simon Jacques
Peak Bouldering Access Rep
The issue of bouldering erosion is one that has started to be addressed in the Peak - have you been to the Pebble or the Business boulder recently at Stanage? - as these boulders have had some work done on the landing areas with better drainage cut and the pits beneath filled in with aggregate.
BMC volunteers co-ordinated this work along with many willfull and only too happy to help climbers and it has been a great success..
I agree there are problems and although I wouldn't really blame guides - I think they do a good job in highlighting other areas (know the boulderng at Tegness?? - if not - you will do soon if you get the New BMC Froggatt guide out in the future...)
Also if you want to help - you can always come to the next BMC Peak Area meet and give your ideas on what we can do to stop the erosion - all thoughts are welcome...(its Thursday next week - at the Devonshire Arms - Pilsley)
cheers!
Simon Jacques
Peak Bouldering Access Rep
In reply to Chris Craggs:
er - no. Hey Chris you just can't help yourself can you?
er - no. Hey Chris you just can't help yourself can you?
In reply to Simon:
Yep - the trackside landing has been filled over the past year or so. Its a good effort - just felt a bit strange to have wood chippings at the bottom of a natural boulder.
But hey - good effort and excellent suggestion - I ought to come along and help out.
Yep - the trackside landing has been filled over the past year or so. Its a good effort - just felt a bit strange to have wood chippings at the bottom of a natural boulder.
But hey - good effort and excellent suggestion - I ought to come along and help out.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Hey mate - you should try it - just wander out - find a big boulder - get a few mates - and try and climb up it. Its mega - real fun! Some of the best bits about climbing.
Hey mate - you should try it - just wander out - find a big boulder - get a few mates - and try and climb up it. Its mega - real fun! Some of the best bits about climbing.
In reply to robw007:
The trackside is filled in sporadically by the warden at the Lodge next to the boulders - its not us thats been doing it!
I've only ever heard praise for the wood chips and they do the job and of course are natural I guess!
Unfortunately they dissapate and need re-doing from time to time and we decided that grit aggregate was better and harder wearing for Stanage...
...now how to help the pooly boulders at Burbage - sugesstions please!!
;0)
Cheers
Si
The trackside is filled in sporadically by the warden at the Lodge next to the boulders - its not us thats been doing it!
I've only ever heard praise for the wood chips and they do the job and of course are natural I guess!
Unfortunately they dissapate and need re-doing from time to time and we decided that grit aggregate was better and harder wearing for Stanage...
...now how to help the pooly boulders at Burbage - sugesstions please!!
;0)
Cheers
Si
In reply to robw007:
Yip, lots of people do that. Lots just go out and boulder without a guide. Find yourself a boulderfield and off you go. Used to do it all the time in the USA, just wander for hours exploring and climbing boulders. Bouldering guides don't stop you doing that you've just got to avoid the hotspots. I could do it today, I know where Crookrise is I could just get up there and wander allovers those moors climbing (short rocks without a rope).
Yes they do provide a short cut, not everyone has the luxury of time or geography.
Yes climbing is a consumerist sport, no avoiding that.
M
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> Mick - I totally sympathise with your argument. Its sort of happened now - the monster is unleashed - but I (and many others) made a conscious decision to move closer to a climbing area so that I CAN go out and explore - find some problems and have a crack at them.
> Mick - I totally sympathise with your argument. Its sort of happened now - the monster is unleashed - but I (and many others) made a conscious decision to move closer to a climbing area so that I CAN go out and explore - find some problems and have a crack at them.
Yip, lots of people do that. Lots just go out and boulder without a guide. Find yourself a boulderfield and off you go. Used to do it all the time in the USA, just wander for hours exploring and climbing boulders. Bouldering guides don't stop you doing that you've just got to avoid the hotspots. I could do it today, I know where Crookrise is I could just get up there and wander allovers those moors climbing (short rocks without a rope).
> Why should climbing be like other consumerist sports - short cuts to the action are what seem to be required by people in a hurry and maybe the bouldering guides provide that short cut?
Yes they do provide a short cut, not everyone has the luxury of time or geography.
Yes climbing is a consumerist sport, no avoiding that.
M
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I take exception to your comment earlier "As I suggested above, the overuse at Corby's has nothing to do with climbers" It has everything to do with climbers. The erosion at this crag is as bad where there is no abseiling (no anchors) as it is where there is.
The problem is that (a) it's next to the road, (b) it's the nearest half decent crag to Tyneside, (c) It gets climbed on a lot when it's damp. That's why it's trashed, it's not abseiling per se, it's the numbers of punters crawling all over it, top roping etc. All made worse by the new road drainage going straight over the top of the crag taking the devegetated sandy soil with it.
I have to admit, I suppose missing it out of a selective guide would only be a token gesture, but it would at least be an admission that climbers DO cause problems and that guidebook writers hae SOME responsibility.
Anyways, it isn't actually a very good crag (IMHO).
I take exception to your comment earlier "As I suggested above, the overuse at Corby's has nothing to do with climbers" It has everything to do with climbers. The erosion at this crag is as bad where there is no abseiling (no anchors) as it is where there is.
The problem is that (a) it's next to the road, (b) it's the nearest half decent crag to Tyneside, (c) It gets climbed on a lot when it's damp. That's why it's trashed, it's not abseiling per se, it's the numbers of punters crawling all over it, top roping etc. All made worse by the new road drainage going straight over the top of the crag taking the devegetated sandy soil with it.
I have to admit, I suppose missing it out of a selective guide would only be a token gesture, but it would at least be an admission that climbers DO cause problems and that guidebook writers hae SOME responsibility.
Anyways, it isn't actually a very good crag (IMHO).
In reply to JDal:
Thanks for the reply, I'll take your comments on board. I had a good look round the crag in June, and did't see much sign of wear and tear on the big wall on the left (where the best routes are), whereas on the upper right was battered and sandy - it was obvious where the abseilers were going over the edge. I'll be back up in the next couple of weeks so will give it another going over.
Its not impossible we might leave it out of the guide, but as you suggest, that may be pointless - a bit of education in the guide may be a better idea! (The NMC have suggest for example that we should include Crag Lough as it sees little attention - I am happy to consider that).
Chris
Thanks for the reply, I'll take your comments on board. I had a good look round the crag in June, and did't see much sign of wear and tear on the big wall on the left (where the best routes are), whereas on the upper right was battered and sandy - it was obvious where the abseilers were going over the edge. I'll be back up in the next couple of weeks so will give it another going over.
Its not impossible we might leave it out of the guide, but as you suggest, that may be pointless - a bit of education in the guide may be a better idea! (The NMC have suggest for example that we should include Crag Lough as it sees little attention - I am happy to consider that).
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs: Cheers Chris. The abseiling takes plaec down the lines of Gibbons Gambol/The Plonka and less often on the North Buttress, down the line of Audacity. When you're up, have a look at the rock right of The Plonka, particuarly the far right buttress(where the rope grooves are, caused by bad ropework, not abseiling)
And yes, missing out Crag Lough and Peel Crag, two of the best crags in the county, would be a bit daft. Unless you are doing a Selective Guide to Sedimentary Rock Climbing In North Eastern England
And yes, missing out Crag Lough and Peel Crag, two of the best crags in the county, would be a bit daft. Unless you are doing a Selective Guide to Sedimentary Rock Climbing In North Eastern England
In reply to Boy: funny!
In reply to Boy:
Oh s**t - I've been rumbled - nice spot - going to have to work harder to cover my tracks in future!
Now - where was that guide .......
Oh s**t - I've been rumbled - nice spot - going to have to work harder to cover my tracks in future!
Now - where was that guide .......
In reply to robw007:
That is the problem with every sort of activity that becomes popular, some jerkoff makes a guide and makes really pristine places accessible to every other jerkoff that shows up and trashes the place.
Then when the site is no longer pristine...people complain.
I see these situations everyday in every form in my Environmental Engineering office.
> ....you just buy the guide and follow the well worn path.
That is the problem with every sort of activity that becomes popular, some jerkoff makes a guide and makes really pristine places accessible to every other jerkoff that shows up and trashes the place.
Then when the site is no longer pristine...people complain.
I see these situations everyday in every form in my Environmental Engineering office.
In reply to Delmarco:
... and your helpful suggestion towards coming up with a solution to contain the environmental impact of climbers, whilst maintaining the accessibility of the sport for everyone is .....?
Alan
> I see these situations everyday in every form in my Environmental Engineering office.
... and your helpful suggestion towards coming up with a solution to contain the environmental impact of climbers, whilst maintaining the accessibility of the sport for everyone is .....?
Alan
In reply to BenTiffin:
You, perhaps, are not as guilty for 'trashing' the place as the next man, precisely because your recognise the underlying problems, and your own personal responsibilities.
The issue seems mostly to be the moronic consumerist hordes who buy the new guidebook, then troop out en masse to get everything ticked, without a care in the world about what impact they have.
> In reality, we are all responsible for trashing the outdoor environment that we are responsible. I could rant for ages but I am as guilty as the next man.
You, perhaps, are not as guilty for 'trashing' the place as the next man, precisely because your recognise the underlying problems, and your own personal responsibilities.
The issue seems mostly to be the moronic consumerist hordes who buy the new guidebook, then troop out en masse to get everything ticked, without a care in the world about what impact they have.
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
You publish guides to make a living for yourself: that's a simple fact.
Unless you personally believe you somehow have a god-given responsibility to lead every unimaginative dolt by the nose to every piece of rock in the UK, then 'Accessibility of the sport' has nothing - not a thing - to do with the availability of guidebooks. So let's not confuse the issues.
> ... and your helpful suggestion towards coming up with a solution to contain the environmental impact of climbers, whilst maintaining the accessibility of the sport for everyone is .....?
You publish guides to make a living for yourself: that's a simple fact.
Unless you personally believe you somehow have a god-given responsibility to lead every unimaginative dolt by the nose to every piece of rock in the UK, then 'Accessibility of the sport' has nothing - not a thing - to do with the availability of guidebooks. So let's not confuse the issues.
In reply to qwerty2:
Actually I didn't mention guidebooks, I just questioned the argument being presented by someone claiming to be an environmental officer when in fact all he really managed to do was slag off guidebook users and producers and not offer any solutions.
What is your solution? Reduce the number of climbers, or educate the existing climbers?
Alan
> Unless you personally believe you somehow have a god-given responsibility to lead every unimaginative dolt by the nose to every piece of rock in the UK, then 'Accessibility of the sport' has nothing - not a thing - to do with the availability of guidebooks. So let's not confuse the issues.
Actually I didn't mention guidebooks, I just questioned the argument being presented by someone claiming to be an environmental officer when in fact all he really managed to do was slag off guidebook users and producers and not offer any solutions.
What is your solution? Reduce the number of climbers, or educate the existing climbers?
Alan
In reply to Delmarco:
Delmarco
May I ask what you are doing to mitigate the impacts you have on the crag environment?
M
> (In reply to robw007)
> [...]
>
> That is the problem with every sort of activity that becomes popular, some jerkoff makes a guide and makes really pristine places accessible to every other jerkoff that shows up and trashes the place.
> Then when the site is no longer pristine...people complain.
> [...]
>
> That is the problem with every sort of activity that becomes popular, some jerkoff makes a guide and makes really pristine places accessible to every other jerkoff that shows up and trashes the place.
> Then when the site is no longer pristine...people complain.
Delmarco
May I ask what you are doing to mitigate the impacts you have on the crag environment?
M
But there again.....
"In those early days when virtually no climbs had been done, Tom Patey, a doctor living in Ullapool, had us all undertake a code of practice truly inspirational in its concept. He considered Sutherland to be God’s last bit of sanity where, if climbs and adventures were not recorded, adventures would still be available for future generations.
A climb undertaken from a guidebook is a done deal. An 800 ft rock face with no information available is the real thing all over again. "
http://www.jmt.org/news/2005/38/38_sandwood.html
"In those early days when virtually no climbs had been done, Tom Patey, a doctor living in Ullapool, had us all undertake a code of practice truly inspirational in its concept. He considered Sutherland to be God’s last bit of sanity where, if climbs and adventures were not recorded, adventures would still be available for future generations.
A climb undertaken from a guidebook is a done deal. An 800 ft rock face with no information available is the real thing all over again. "
http://www.jmt.org/news/2005/38/38_sandwood.html
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
You made a very wierd reference to 'accessibility' which I took - perhaps incorrectly? - to be a indirect reference to, amongst other things, guidebook information.
My 'solution' to the question that started this thread(namely: 'Have noticed recently that areas with bouldering guides to them are becoming really trashed.')? One answer's obvious, isn't it? Resist the temptation to publish guides to every pebble on earth.
> Actually I didn't mention guidebooks ...
You made a very wierd reference to 'accessibility' which I took - perhaps incorrectly? - to be a indirect reference to, amongst other things, guidebook information.
> What is your solution? Reduce the number of climbers, or educate the existing climbers?
My 'solution' to the question that started this thread(namely: 'Have noticed recently that areas with bouldering guides to them are becoming really trashed.')? One answer's obvious, isn't it? Resist the temptation to publish guides to every pebble on earth.
In reply to qwerty2:
No it isn't obvious. As long as there is a need for guidebooks, of any kind, they will be published. And there is a need or they wouldn't sell. Doesn't matter whether it is by Ground Up, Rockfax, Climbers Club, Supertopo, Maximus Press, Wolverine, FRCC. Tom, Dick or Steve Crowe, as an article in one of the mags or as a web guide, they will be published
As I said above you just cannot stop the flow of information.
Although in principle I agree with you.
Next move qwerty2.
Mick
> (In reply to Alan James - UKC)
> One answer's obvious, isn't it? Resist the temptation to publish guides to every pebble on earth.
No it isn't obvious. As long as there is a need for guidebooks, of any kind, they will be published. And there is a need or they wouldn't sell. Doesn't matter whether it is by Ground Up, Rockfax, Climbers Club, Supertopo, Maximus Press, Wolverine, FRCC. Tom, Dick or Steve Crowe, as an article in one of the mags or as a web guide, they will be published
As I said above you just cannot stop the flow of information.
Although in principle I agree with you.
Next move qwerty2.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
You confuse the phrase 'need for guidebooks' with 'need for my company to make moolah'.
But we have clashed on this subject here before.
Just, for once, consider saying no when someone waggles some dollar bills before your eyes?
> ... As long as there is a need for guidebooks ... they will be published
You confuse the phrase 'need for guidebooks' with 'need for my company to make moolah'.
But we have clashed on this subject here before.
Just, for once, consider saying no when someone waggles some dollar bills before your eyes?
In reply to Delmarco:
That realy is rather offensive - everyone who produces guides (CC, FRCC, BMC, RockFax, Vertebrate Graphics plus all the rest) and everyone who uses a guide is a "jerkoff".
Obviously you don't produce guides, and I assume you never feel the need to use them either?
Chris
That realy is rather offensive - everyone who produces guides (CC, FRCC, BMC, RockFax, Vertebrate Graphics plus all the rest) and everyone who uses a guide is a "jerkoff".
Obviously you don't produce guides, and I assume you never feel the need to use them either?
Chris
In reply to qwerty2:
You are personalising it. I'm not. Doesn't matter who. Someone will do it.
Saying to me, 'don't write or publish a guidebook' will not make guidebooks go away.
So what is your answer?
Mick
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> Just, for once, consider saying no when someone waggles some dollar bills before your eyes?
You are personalising it. I'm not. Doesn't matter who. Someone will do it.
Saying to me, 'don't write or publish a guidebook' will not make guidebooks go away.
So what is your answer?
Mick
In reply to qwerty2:
For the record qwerty 2
Guidebooks do inspire peeps to go to areas and do guide people to areas and they do contribute, indirectly, to erosion at cliffs/bouldering areas. I would never deny that.
For the record qwerty 2
Guidebooks do inspire peeps to go to areas and do guide people to areas and they do contribute, indirectly, to erosion at cliffs/bouldering areas. I would never deny that.
In reply to qwerty2:
There are plenty of areas in bouldering guides that aren't trashed. In actual fact it is only really the popular spots that are getting trashed.
Could it be that the quality of the bouldering and its accessibility might be why they are getting trashed?
Do these popular spots become less popular if they aren't included in a book?
I don't actually know the answer to these questions but I don't think boulderers are suddenly going to disappear. I suspect there would be plenty of people who still want to go bouldering, only, because there is no guidebook, many of them may well miss many of the alternative venues which could lead to a concentration of the erosion on the well known and trashed venues.
All guesswork I admit. However the only real way to stop erosion is by education (which guidebooks have a significant role in) or by reducing the number of climbers, which would be way beyond the scope of just guidebook producers.
Well, we don't actually do that do we?
Do you think that including the superb boulders on Kinder in a guidebook will have any significant impact on the erosion there?
Do you think that leaving the Plantation boulders out of a guidebook will stop people climbing there?
Alan
> My 'solution' to the question that started this thread(namely: 'Have noticed recently that areas with bouldering guides to them are becoming really trashed.')?
There are plenty of areas in bouldering guides that aren't trashed. In actual fact it is only really the popular spots that are getting trashed.
Could it be that the quality of the bouldering and its accessibility might be why they are getting trashed?
Do these popular spots become less popular if they aren't included in a book?
I don't actually know the answer to these questions but I don't think boulderers are suddenly going to disappear. I suspect there would be plenty of people who still want to go bouldering, only, because there is no guidebook, many of them may well miss many of the alternative venues which could lead to a concentration of the erosion on the well known and trashed venues.
All guesswork I admit. However the only real way to stop erosion is by education (which guidebooks have a significant role in) or by reducing the number of climbers, which would be way beyond the scope of just guidebook producers.
> One answer's obvious, isn't it? Resist the temptation to publish guides to every pebble on earth.
Well, we don't actually do that do we?
Do you think that including the superb boulders on Kinder in a guidebook will have any significant impact on the erosion there?
Do you think that leaving the Plantation boulders out of a guidebook will stop people climbing there?
Alan
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
You really have to define the word "trashed" in that context. Aesthetically maybe...that is subjective, but I think most people would agree that chipped holds and graffiti on the rock defines, 'trashed'.
Trashed = loss of species??????
When we say, 'trashed" what do we mean?
> (In reply to qwerty2)
> [...]
>
> There are plenty of areas in bouldering guides that aren't trashed.
> [...]
>
> There are plenty of areas in bouldering guides that aren't trashed.
You really have to define the word "trashed" in that context. Aesthetically maybe...that is subjective, but I think most people would agree that chipped holds and graffiti on the rock defines, 'trashed'.
Trashed = loss of species??????
When we say, 'trashed" what do we mean?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I always find it slightly ironic that we worry about the grass getting trashed around the odd boulder whilst just over the hill the heart is being ripped out of the Peak as a million tonnes of limestone a week are quarried away!
Chris
I always find it slightly ironic that we worry about the grass getting trashed around the odd boulder whilst just over the hill the heart is being ripped out of the Peak as a million tonnes of limestone a week are quarried away!
Chris
In reply to robw007:
This has become really interesting - its the Alan, Chris and Mick roadshow against the world!
What I am suprised about is that there are no bouldering gurus coming out in support of the guidebook writers?
Could it be that even the hard core boulderers see the guides for what they are?
This has become really interesting - its the Alan, Chris and Mick roadshow against the world!
What I am suprised about is that there are no bouldering gurus coming out in support of the guidebook writers?
Could it be that even the hard core boulderers see the guides for what they are?
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Quick Chris - a straw - over there grab it!
Quick Chris - a straw - over there grab it!
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Really?
> (In reply to robw007)
>
> No probs, I don't do bouldering or bouldering guides!
>
> No probs, I don't do bouldering or bouldering guides!
Really?
In reply to robw007:
Well they aren't exactly coming out in support of your tenuous point either.
Why don't you try answering some of the points that we have made?
Alan
> This has become really interesting - its the Alan, Chris and Mick roadshow against the world!
> What I am suprised about is that there are no bouldering gurus coming out in support of the guidebook writers?
> What I am suprised about is that there are no bouldering gurus coming out in support of the guidebook writers?
Well they aren't exactly coming out in support of your tenuous point either.
Why don't you try answering some of the points that we have made?
Alan
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I don't have a Dept!
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> Thought that was your Dept?
>
> Thought that was your Dept?
I don't have a Dept!
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
I wouldn't expect them to - who ever they are by the way. But if you produce bouldering guides - surely boulderers would support that effort?
And I would add that my point - tenuous or not - has a reasonable amount of support from those that DON'T make money out of producing literature from our sport - worthy or not.
I wouldn't expect them to - who ever they are by the way. But if you produce bouldering guides - surely boulderers would support that effort?
And I would add that my point - tenuous or not - has a reasonable amount of support from those that DON'T make money out of producing literature from our sport - worthy or not.
In reply to robw007:
This is going nowhere. How did you find out about the boulders you climb on, by walking past them one day and finding them or did you have a guide book to them, or a BMC guide to the local crags?
As has been said many times on here now there are guides to lots of boulders in different areas and ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.
So some areas were not covered before that are getting 'trashed' in your words, well that is the fault of LAZY boulderers, who head for the nearest places to the road for a short fix. How many boulderers haul a mat to the top of Stanage or High Neb for some bouldering? Same about Kinder, lots of good bouldering on the top that I read about when I was first starting out, in fact when I was about 14 and walking in the area and bought the Sheffield Clarion Ramblers handbooks for information on the area, and the shooting huts and dosses available for those keen enough to use them;
http://www.wishful-thinking.org.uk/genuki/DBY/Bibliography/Review49.html
People are not restricted as to where they go, we had all the Vallot guides when doing some routes in chamonix but as in the following thread, it seems British climbers are only focused in the main on easily accessible routes, and then they moan about a couple of mountains in Britain having railways up them, the hypocritical lot.
I wonder how many of the trashers walk up from Hathersage to the crag?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=203763
This is going nowhere. How did you find out about the boulders you climb on, by walking past them one day and finding them or did you have a guide book to them, or a BMC guide to the local crags?
As has been said many times on here now there are guides to lots of boulders in different areas and ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.
So some areas were not covered before that are getting 'trashed' in your words, well that is the fault of LAZY boulderers, who head for the nearest places to the road for a short fix. How many boulderers haul a mat to the top of Stanage or High Neb for some bouldering? Same about Kinder, lots of good bouldering on the top that I read about when I was first starting out, in fact when I was about 14 and walking in the area and bought the Sheffield Clarion Ramblers handbooks for information on the area, and the shooting huts and dosses available for those keen enough to use them;
http://www.wishful-thinking.org.uk/genuki/DBY/Bibliography/Review49.html
People are not restricted as to where they go, we had all the Vallot guides when doing some routes in chamonix but as in the following thread, it seems British climbers are only focused in the main on easily accessible routes, and then they moan about a couple of mountains in Britain having railways up them, the hypocritical lot.
I wonder how many of the trashers walk up from Hathersage to the crag?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=203763
In reply to robw007:
mmmmmm...how quick do you forget?
Its not about guides at the end of the day - they do a good job - ok I'm biased - I do them - but in this case moreover its trying to put something back isn' it?
and naff all has come from you in this text - money where mouth is mate!!
si
> (In reply to robw007)
>
> What I am suprised about is that there are no bouldering gurus coming out in support of the guidebook writers?
>
> What I am suprised about is that there are no bouldering gurus coming out in support of the guidebook writers?
> Could it be that even the hard core boulderers see the guides for what they are?
mmmmmm...how quick do you forget?
Its not about guides at the end of the day - they do a good job - ok I'm biased - I do them - but in this case moreover its trying to put something back isn' it?
and naff all has come from you in this text - money where mouth is mate!!
si
In reply to Chris Craggs:
The main problem with Corby's is that it is *so* accessible with a walk-in time of 1-2 minutes (or quicker if you fall down the hill) and is located about 10-15 minutes outside of the town of Alnwick (which is an easily accessed town unless you try to do it by a bus).
I'm a bit hazy on instructoral qualifications and insurance, but I can guess they reap massive benefits going to a crag that takes a 1 minute to walk in rather than one that takes about 30 minutes to an hour.
The main problem with Corby's is that it is *so* accessible with a walk-in time of 1-2 minutes (or quicker if you fall down the hill) and is located about 10-15 minutes outside of the town of Alnwick (which is an easily accessed town unless you try to do it by a bus).
I'm a bit hazy on instructoral qualifications and insurance, but I can guess they reap massive benefits going to a crag that takes a 1 minute to walk in rather than one that takes about 30 minutes to an hour.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Mickey,
Trashed = Bridestones
The Ent
> (In reply to Alan James - UKC)
> [...]
>
> You really have to define the word "trashed" in that context. Aesthetically maybe...that is subjective, but I think most people would agree that chipped holds and graffiti on the rock defines, 'trashed'.
>
> Trashed = loss of species??????
>
> When we say, 'trashed" what do we mean?
> [...]
>
> You really have to define the word "trashed" in that context. Aesthetically maybe...that is subjective, but I think most people would agree that chipped holds and graffiti on the rock defines, 'trashed'.
>
> Trashed = loss of species??????
>
> When we say, 'trashed" what do we mean?
Mickey,
Trashed = Bridestones
The Ent
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Can I recommend you start stocking them in Rock and Run? Might be useful in case you deck out again off the rock shoe wall!
> You mean like a hybrid bouldering pad and guidebook? You can read it, sleep on it and fall off on to it!
Can I recommend you start stocking them in Rock and Run? Might be useful in case you deck out again off the rock shoe wall!
In reply to Delmarco:
I don't think that anyone can deny that the climbing media increases the popularity of popular areas. Especially these days when magazines, guidebooks and the web are full of big colour pictures which are more inspiring than just words.
But as someone once said, the long term popularity of an area depends how good the area actually is. If an area is hyped as great and is poor people won't go again.
Word of mouth, personal recommendations are also just as important in the flow of information.
The climbing media isn't going to go away, nor will climbers ever stop telling each other that so and so route or crag is brilliant. There's no point in throwing insults and personalising the argument that it is so and so's fault.....although many of us like doing that.
There is a problem at some areas and I think you will find that where there is climbers usually do something about it.
Mick
> (In reply to robw007)
> [...]
>
> That is the problem with every sort of activity that becomes popular, some jerkoff makes a guide and makes really pristine places accessible to every other jerkoff
> [...]
>
> That is the problem with every sort of activity that becomes popular, some jerkoff makes a guide and makes really pristine places accessible to every other jerkoff
I don't think that anyone can deny that the climbing media increases the popularity of popular areas. Especially these days when magazines, guidebooks and the web are full of big colour pictures which are more inspiring than just words.
But as someone once said, the long term popularity of an area depends how good the area actually is. If an area is hyped as great and is poor people won't go again.
Word of mouth, personal recommendations are also just as important in the flow of information.
> jerkoff makes a guide
The climbing media isn't going to go away, nor will climbers ever stop telling each other that so and so route or crag is brilliant. There's no point in throwing insults and personalising the argument that it is so and so's fault.....although many of us like doing that.
There is a problem at some areas and I think you will find that where there is climbers usually do something about it.
Mick
However the only real way to stop erosion is by education (which guidebooks have a significant role in)
"EDUCATION" A great word used frequently as the only feasible solution to most of the self inflicted problems of humanity. Briefly, Alan, if you could just outline the pertinent points that you would include in your lesson to the boulderer that will repair or halt the damage. After all slowing down the damage isn't really acceptable is it?
Obesity - solution? Education. So people need telling that too many sausage sandwiches are bad for you? Reality is educated people still stuff there faces.
Global Warming - solution? Education. We all know the damage our cars and flights cause and continue, with the full understanding of the cosequences of our behaviour, to travel more than ever every year.
Cigarettes and cancer - solution? Education. How long has the link been commonly known even by the greatest halfwit never mind the holder of a doctorate in Medical Molecular Biology? Yet smoking is on the increase, again.
The list is endless and education is clearly a wholly inadequate solution in itself.
Please don't take this as a personal challenge to your wisdom. That seems to be the way these website conversations go and it leaves me feeling heavy hearted. That's why I tend not to join in. It's a bit like waving two fingers at the guy in the next car from the safety of your locked door with foot on the accelerator, don't you think. I am genuinely interested in your suggestions of effective education and will happily stand corrected if you can convince me that it is, in itself, a sufficient method. My fear is that, as with most human activity, once the ball is rolling it doesn't stop. I am a great pessimist.
I do boulder, at crags where I see other boulderers and at jumbles of rocks I spot on OS maps. Perhaps OS maps should be banned. I do step on daisies by accident occasionally, though if there are greenfly all over the topouts I blow them out of the way if I can hold on long enough and drop off if I can't. Probably killing the family of ants out for a stroll below me in the process! It's a mixed up world, eh?
Cheers Kaj
"EDUCATION" A great word used frequently as the only feasible solution to most of the self inflicted problems of humanity. Briefly, Alan, if you could just outline the pertinent points that you would include in your lesson to the boulderer that will repair or halt the damage. After all slowing down the damage isn't really acceptable is it?
Obesity - solution? Education. So people need telling that too many sausage sandwiches are bad for you? Reality is educated people still stuff there faces.
Global Warming - solution? Education. We all know the damage our cars and flights cause and continue, with the full understanding of the cosequences of our behaviour, to travel more than ever every year.
Cigarettes and cancer - solution? Education. How long has the link been commonly known even by the greatest halfwit never mind the holder of a doctorate in Medical Molecular Biology? Yet smoking is on the increase, again.
The list is endless and education is clearly a wholly inadequate solution in itself.
Please don't take this as a personal challenge to your wisdom. That seems to be the way these website conversations go and it leaves me feeling heavy hearted. That's why I tend not to join in. It's a bit like waving two fingers at the guy in the next car from the safety of your locked door with foot on the accelerator, don't you think. I am genuinely interested in your suggestions of effective education and will happily stand corrected if you can convince me that it is, in itself, a sufficient method. My fear is that, as with most human activity, once the ball is rolling it doesn't stop. I am a great pessimist.
I do boulder, at crags where I see other boulderers and at jumbles of rocks I spot on OS maps. Perhaps OS maps should be banned. I do step on daisies by accident occasionally, though if there are greenfly all over the topouts I blow them out of the way if I can hold on long enough and drop off if I can't. Probably killing the family of ants out for a stroll below me in the process! It's a mixed up world, eh?
Cheers Kaj
> mmmmmm...how quick do you forget?
>
> Its not about guides at the end of the day - they do a good job - ok I'm biased - I do them - but in this case moreover its trying to put something back isn' it?
>
> and naff all has come from you in this text - money where mouth is mate!!
>
> Its not about guides at the end of the day - they do a good job - ok I'm biased - I do them - but in this case moreover its trying to put something back isn' it?
>
> and naff all has come from you in this text - money where mouth is mate!!
I am genuinely in awe of guidebook writers and the amount of effort they put in to developing the end result.
As you quite graphically point out - its easy to point the finger and do nothing about it.
Well a thread like this is doing something about it - its raising the question and by a look at the 1,000 plus views its something that many of us care about. Understandably we all come at from a slightly different angles - but as Kaj says above - isn't about education? And before you can educate you have to debate.
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
How does a giveaway .pdf to the Burbage valley fit with spreading the load?
> Rather than blaming guidebooks for bouldering erosion ... it would be a better idea to encourage proper use of guidebooks to help spread the load.
How does a giveaway .pdf to the Burbage valley fit with spreading the load?
In reply to robw007:
You started this debate with an idea you believed in. You thought bouldering areas are getting eroded. These bouldering areas are appearing in guidebooks, therefore it must be the guidebooks that caused it.
That's it, you haven't come up with any actual evidence beyond this initial statement. Yet several people have pointed out that it isn't so simple. There are areas that have been in guidebooks which are not even slightly busy. And you haven't yet answered the question what do you think would happen to the busy areas if they were not covered in guidebooks.
Support your argument first, or counter the ones put up by others. Speculating about where the argument comes from doesn't actually change the point that they are making.
Alan
> I wouldn't expect them to - who ever they are by the way. But if you produce bouldering guides - surely boulderers would support that effort?
> And I would add that my point - tenuous or not - has a reasonable amount of support from those that DON'T make money out of producing literature from our sport - worthy or not.
> And I would add that my point - tenuous or not - has a reasonable amount of support from those that DON'T make money out of producing literature from our sport - worthy or not.
You started this debate with an idea you believed in. You thought bouldering areas are getting eroded. These bouldering areas are appearing in guidebooks, therefore it must be the guidebooks that caused it.
That's it, you haven't come up with any actual evidence beyond this initial statement. Yet several people have pointed out that it isn't so simple. There are areas that have been in guidebooks which are not even slightly busy. And you haven't yet answered the question what do you think would happen to the busy areas if they were not covered in guidebooks.
Support your argument first, or counter the ones put up by others. Speculating about where the argument comes from doesn't actually change the point that they are making.
Alan
In reply to kajsurfer:
But guidebooks aren't there to provide an answer, they are just there as part of a wider scene faced with a problem. I believe that guidebooks can help by presenting alternative venues, by alerting (educating?) people into correct behaviour, and highlighting potential problem areas. Not covering areas in books doesn't make climbers go away, it will just transfer the burden somewhere else, and I am certain that 'somewhere else' will be the popular, established, well-eroded areas. Believing that in the absence of information climbers will spread themselves thinly across all available areas is obviously nonsense, yet that is exactly the premise behind the statement that started this thread.
Having said all that, I think the underlying message behind your post is spot on - the only real way to stop erosion is to stop climbing. But if you start travelling down that road then you quickly realise that you also have to stop shopping for most packaged goods, eating food produced in the wrong way, driving anywhere, etc.....
Alan
> Please don't take this as a personal challenge to your wisdom. That seems to be the way these website conversations go and it leaves me feeling heavy hearted. That's why I tend not to join in. It's a bit like waving two fingers at the guy in the next car from the safety of your locked door with foot on the accelerator, don't you think. I am genuinely interested in your suggestions of effective education and will happily stand corrected if you can convince me that it is, in itself, a sufficient method. My fear is that, as with most human activity, once the ball is rolling it doesn't stop. I am a great pessimist.
But guidebooks aren't there to provide an answer, they are just there as part of a wider scene faced with a problem. I believe that guidebooks can help by presenting alternative venues, by alerting (educating?) people into correct behaviour, and highlighting potential problem areas. Not covering areas in books doesn't make climbers go away, it will just transfer the burden somewhere else, and I am certain that 'somewhere else' will be the popular, established, well-eroded areas. Believing that in the absence of information climbers will spread themselves thinly across all available areas is obviously nonsense, yet that is exactly the premise behind the statement that started this thread.
Having said all that, I think the underlying message behind your post is spot on - the only real way to stop erosion is to stop climbing. But if you start travelling down that road then you quickly realise that you also have to stop shopping for most packaged goods, eating food produced in the wrong way, driving anywhere, etc.....
Alan
In reply to duncan:
Well that hasn't been available from the site for over two years.
We have changed what we give away as free downloads to market guides in recent years and tend now to focus on fairly obscure and out of the way areas - Monk's Buttress, Curbar North, etc.
Alan
> How does a giveaway .pdf to the Burbage valley fit with spreading the load?
Well that hasn't been available from the site for over two years.
We have changed what we give away as free downloads to market guides in recent years and tend now to focus on fairly obscure and out of the way areas - Monk's Buttress, Curbar North, etc.
Alan
In reply to Simon:
This is the way forward IMHO - healthy debate and collective solutions.
> (In reply to robw007)
>
> The issue of bouldering erosion is one that has started to be addressed in the Peak - have you been to the Pebble or the Business boulder recently at Stanage? - as these boulders have had some work done on the landing areas with better drainage cut and the pits beneath filled in with aggregate.
>
> BMC volunteers co-ordinated this work along with many willfull and only too happy to help climbers and it has been a great success..
>
> I agree there are problems and although I wouldn't really blame guides - I think they do a good job in highlighting other areas (know the boulderng at Tegness?? - if not - you will do soon if you get the New BMC Froggatt guide out in the future...)
>
> Also if you want to help - you can always come to the next BMC Peak Area meet and give your ideas on what we can do to stop the erosion - all thoughts are welcome...(its Thursday next week - at the Devonshire Arms - Pilsley)
>
> cheers!
>
> Simon Jacques
> Peak Bouldering Access Rep
>
> The issue of bouldering erosion is one that has started to be addressed in the Peak - have you been to the Pebble or the Business boulder recently at Stanage? - as these boulders have had some work done on the landing areas with better drainage cut and the pits beneath filled in with aggregate.
>
> BMC volunteers co-ordinated this work along with many willfull and only too happy to help climbers and it has been a great success..
>
> I agree there are problems and although I wouldn't really blame guides - I think they do a good job in highlighting other areas (know the boulderng at Tegness?? - if not - you will do soon if you get the New BMC Froggatt guide out in the future...)
>
> Also if you want to help - you can always come to the next BMC Peak Area meet and give your ideas on what we can do to stop the erosion - all thoughts are welcome...(its Thursday next week - at the Devonshire Arms - Pilsley)
>
> cheers!
>
> Simon Jacques
> Peak Bouldering Access Rep
This is the way forward IMHO - healthy debate and collective solutions.
In reply to robw007:
Then 'debate' and 'offer solutions'. So far you have done neither.
Alan
> This is the way forward IMHO - healthy debate and collective solutions.
Then 'debate' and 'offer solutions'. So far you have done neither.
Alan
In reply to robw007: Climbing is more popular, which I'd put down to more disposable income amongst young people, simple as that. If bouldering guidebooks weren't available everybody would just head to Burbage south and the plantation anyway, they are the popular talked about spots. If you turn your question round you could ask why some areas that are in the guidebooks aren't trashed, and don't get as busy?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Well then, I withdraw my rather cheap shot. Apologies.
*If* we accept that, then I have no answer, because the evidence of my own eyes is that bouldering guides attract too many people to honeypot areas, and too many of those people seem to be ignorant of the problems they create - or, even worse, maybe just don't care about it.
I agree with the premise that started this thread, and would wish the guides away if I could. Why any person with at least one functioning eye needs a guide to the boulders of, say, the Plantation, is completely beyond me.
> You are personalising it. I'm not.
Well then, I withdraw my rather cheap shot. Apologies.
> Doesn't matter who. Someone will do it.
>
> Saying to me, 'don't write or publish a guidebook' will not make guidebooks go away.
>
> So what is your answer?
>
> Saying to me, 'don't write or publish a guidebook' will not make guidebooks go away.
>
> So what is your answer?
*If* we accept that, then I have no answer, because the evidence of my own eyes is that bouldering guides attract too many people to honeypot areas, and too many of those people seem to be ignorant of the problems they create - or, even worse, maybe just don't care about it.
I agree with the premise that started this thread, and would wish the guides away if I could. Why any person with at least one functioning eye needs a guide to the boulders of, say, the Plantation, is completely beyond me.
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
Oh - ok Alan - I'll just solve the Peak District erosion issue all on my ownsome.
Debate? - having it now - possible opportunity to have a more reasoned and informed debate on Thursday (which is why I copied the thread from Simon).
Offer solutions? - Peak District Access plan for 2007-2012? Where all significant stakeholders have an opportunity to have their say on access and environmental issues that could impact on the Peak over the next 5 years. Outcome a more strategic plan that feels 'owned' by all key stakeholders, guidebook writers/climbers/bmc/landowners etc. Dealing with erosion issues and good practice guides to sensitive areas which are continually monitored and fed back to the users - craggers/boulderers.
In view of the excellent work that is being carried out by a few - its about a more joined up approach now that this is becoming a serious issues in our area. A communication strategy that informs as many people as possible about environmental hazards through as many channels as possible. Environmental sections in the climbing mags - maybe an add on to the access literature the BMC issues including sensitive environmental areas and good practice guides to those areas.
Now I know alot of this is starting to happen - I am saying lets try and join it up as we have a responsibility to our kids and their kids after them to leave them with a healthy thriving environment in which to climb/walk/be.
I realise all this takes resources - at present it is based mainly on voluteers. Well maybe its time to for us lobby for something a bit more substantial from local/central government? (sorry got a bit carried away at the end there - its the idealist in me again!)
Oh - ok Alan - I'll just solve the Peak District erosion issue all on my ownsome.
Debate? - having it now - possible opportunity to have a more reasoned and informed debate on Thursday (which is why I copied the thread from Simon).
Offer solutions? - Peak District Access plan for 2007-2012? Where all significant stakeholders have an opportunity to have their say on access and environmental issues that could impact on the Peak over the next 5 years. Outcome a more strategic plan that feels 'owned' by all key stakeholders, guidebook writers/climbers/bmc/landowners etc. Dealing with erosion issues and good practice guides to sensitive areas which are continually monitored and fed back to the users - craggers/boulderers.
In view of the excellent work that is being carried out by a few - its about a more joined up approach now that this is becoming a serious issues in our area. A communication strategy that informs as many people as possible about environmental hazards through as many channels as possible. Environmental sections in the climbing mags - maybe an add on to the access literature the BMC issues including sensitive environmental areas and good practice guides to those areas.
Now I know alot of this is starting to happen - I am saying lets try and join it up as we have a responsibility to our kids and their kids after them to leave them with a healthy thriving environment in which to climb/walk/be.
I realise all this takes resources - at present it is based mainly on voluteers. Well maybe its time to for us lobby for something a bit more substantial from local/central government? (sorry got a bit carried away at the end there - its the idealist in me again!)
In reply to robw007:
>Well maybe its time to for us lobby for something a bit more substantial from local/central government? (sorry got a bit carried away at the end there - its the idealist in me again!)
ROFLMAO. you mean the government that gives more money to the Opera house than all the National parks combined?
>Well maybe its time to for us lobby for something a bit more substantial from local/central government? (sorry got a bit carried away at the end there - its the idealist in me again!)
ROFLMAO. you mean the government that gives more money to the Opera house than all the National parks combined?
In reply to robw007:
Some good points, although I think we need to keep it in perspective, after all, there are a few bigger environmental issues which our generation needs to address.
Maybe you should have started the thread with this post with that rather than the rather nonsensical way that you did start it.
Alan
> Debate? - having it now
snip
> ..... at present it is based mainly on voluteers. Well maybe its time to for us lobby for something a bit more substantial from local/central government? (sorry got a bit carried away at the end there - its the idealist in me again!)
Some good points, although I think we need to keep it in perspective, after all, there are a few bigger environmental issues which our generation needs to address.
Maybe you should have started the thread with this post with that rather than the rather nonsensical way that you did start it.
Alan
In reply to qwerty2:
Could it not just be that over the last few years, bouldering has got significantly more popular for many different reasons, and hence the popular areas are busier?
Do you think that without the guidebooks people are going to suddenly leave these popular areas and go and boulder on Dovestones Tor and Kinder instead?
Alan
> *If* we accept that, then I have no answer, because the evidence of my own eyes is that bouldering guides attract too many people to honeypot areas, and too many of those people seem to be ignorant of the problems they create - or, even worse, maybe just don't care about it.
> I agree with the premise that started this thread, and would wish the guides away if I could. Why any person with at least one functioning eye needs a guide to the boulders of, say, the Plantation, is completely beyond me.
> I agree with the premise that started this thread, and would wish the guides away if I could. Why any person with at least one functioning eye needs a guide to the boulders of, say, the Plantation, is completely beyond me.
Could it not just be that over the last few years, bouldering has got significantly more popular for many different reasons, and hence the popular areas are busier?
Do you think that without the guidebooks people are going to suddenly leave these popular areas and go and boulder on Dovestones Tor and Kinder instead?
Alan
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
Point taken - however the memory of a sudden massive (almost overnight) influx of climbers following guide books around burbage boulders still lingers.
But you are correct - we all want the same thing from an environmental perspective and we are obviously on the same side - its how we go about tackling it thats the interesting thing.
I also accept that we have bigger environmental issues globally to consider - but that shouldn't allow us to take our eye of the local issues.
And as an editor of the leading brand of guides you are in a very powerful/priviledged position.
Point taken - however the memory of a sudden massive (almost overnight) influx of climbers following guide books around burbage boulders still lingers.
But you are correct - we all want the same thing from an environmental perspective and we are obviously on the same side - its how we go about tackling it thats the interesting thing.
I also accept that we have bigger environmental issues globally to consider - but that shouldn't allow us to take our eye of the local issues.
And as an editor of the leading brand of guides you are in a very powerful/priviledged position.
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
But this is circular: one of the reasons bouldering has gotten more popular is precisely because there are now guidebooks which lead people by the nose. (And it's bigged up by the mags. And fashion. And ...)
No, I don't expect people to go to Kinder instead, but there's a difference between people bouldering around on their own initiative - as they have done for donkeys years -, and lumpen unimaginative dolts who - guidebook and mat safely in hand - first tick everything on 'Boulder 1', then go on to 'Boulder 2', etc etc.
But we don't agree; and I accept that you've won and I've lost. Until the fashion turns, we're stuck with what we now see, I'm afraid.
> Could it not just be that over the last few years, bouldering has got significantly more popular for many different reasons, and hence the popular areas are busier?
>
> Do you think that without the guidebooks people are going to suddenly leave these popular areas and go and boulder on Dovestones Tor and Kinder instead?
>
> Do you think that without the guidebooks people are going to suddenly leave these popular areas and go and boulder on Dovestones Tor and Kinder instead?
But this is circular: one of the reasons bouldering has gotten more popular is precisely because there are now guidebooks which lead people by the nose. (And it's bigged up by the mags. And fashion. And ...)
No, I don't expect people to go to Kinder instead, but there's a difference between people bouldering around on their own initiative - as they have done for donkeys years -, and lumpen unimaginative dolts who - guidebook and mat safely in hand - first tick everything on 'Boulder 1', then go on to 'Boulder 2', etc etc.
But we don't agree; and I accept that you've won and I've lost. Until the fashion turns, we're stuck with what we now see, I'm afraid.
In reply to robw007:
Exactly, which is why getting rid of bouldering guidebooks would remove that influence.
Hang on a minute, we don't actually publish a book to Peak Bouldering anymore. If we do in the future (no plans at present) then I am sure environmental concerns would be a significant part of our approach to the book.
Having said all that, I still can never quite get my head around the fuss about bouldering erosion when the near-by crags are in so much worse a state. It seems to all be to do with the fact we can see it happening before our eyes that makes people feel uncomfortable.
Alan
> And as an editor of the leading brand of guides you are in a very powerful/priviledged position.
Exactly, which is why getting rid of bouldering guidebooks would remove that influence.
Hang on a minute, we don't actually publish a book to Peak Bouldering anymore. If we do in the future (no plans at present) then I am sure environmental concerns would be a significant part of our approach to the book.
Having said all that, I still can never quite get my head around the fuss about bouldering erosion when the near-by crags are in so much worse a state. It seems to all be to do with the fact we can see it happening before our eyes that makes people feel uncomfortable.
Alan
In reply to robw007:
I know this thread is a bit Peak - centric but any of you guys read the new Lakes Rockfax ?
Obviously not you Rob as you get any info you need off the web ;0)
One of the first intro pages is basically the BMC's 10 commandments of bouldering and educates those who don't know how to boulder with minimal impact. That should stop those " punters " someone referred to earlier from causing too much damage. Why do people assume that because someone can climb/boulder hard they are going to treat a boulder/crag with respect ? High grade climbers can cause damage too. It's not an elitist issue.
The Lakes guide also promotes many out of the way areas with walk in's well over an hour long, has pointers to un-developed areas and generally encourages spreading the load rather than everyone crowding round the Bowderstone. It's the best mix of "recording every pebble on earth" whilst keeping with the traditions that Rob professes that i've come across.
You should consider yourself lucky Rob that you have the time to spend wandering all over the moors exploring new places.I am genuinely envious. However do you not think that by telling your friends about these places, who will then tell their friends etc etc , you could be storing up problems for the future ?
I know this thread is a bit Peak - centric but any of you guys read the new Lakes Rockfax ?
Obviously not you Rob as you get any info you need off the web ;0)
One of the first intro pages is basically the BMC's 10 commandments of bouldering and educates those who don't know how to boulder with minimal impact. That should stop those " punters " someone referred to earlier from causing too much damage. Why do people assume that because someone can climb/boulder hard they are going to treat a boulder/crag with respect ? High grade climbers can cause damage too. It's not an elitist issue.
The Lakes guide also promotes many out of the way areas with walk in's well over an hour long, has pointers to un-developed areas and generally encourages spreading the load rather than everyone crowding round the Bowderstone. It's the best mix of "recording every pebble on earth" whilst keeping with the traditions that Rob professes that i've come across.
You should consider yourself lucky Rob that you have the time to spend wandering all over the moors exploring new places.I am genuinely envious. However do you not think that by telling your friends about these places, who will then tell their friends etc etc , you could be storing up problems for the future ?
In reply to biscuit:
Sounds good - I'll have to get it .... oops nearly let my holier than though guard slip then!
Yeh the 'lucky' card is an interesting one - I made a conscious decision to come to Sheffield in 1979.
I'm not sure I am upholding any traditions - its more of a joined up approach to the environmental issues we face in an area surrounded by 3 or 4 cities that interests me.
Anyway - will have to get some work done otherwise I'm going to have one heck of alot of time to wander Peak/do volunteer work/go to area meetings etc etc!
Sounds good - I'll have to get it .... oops nearly let my holier than though guard slip then!
Yeh the 'lucky' card is an interesting one - I made a conscious decision to come to Sheffield in 1979.
I'm not sure I am upholding any traditions - its more of a joined up approach to the environmental issues we face in an area surrounded by 3 or 4 cities that interests me.
Anyway - will have to get some work done otherwise I'm going to have one heck of alot of time to wander Peak/do volunteer work/go to area meetings etc etc!
Limestone quarrying in the Peak district may be unsavoury to most of us but it's the tip of a bl**dy big iceberg. Are we not all Nimby's? Think about what we're doing right now. How do we sustain any arguement in the face of the following unsavoury but easily "googled facts"? Does our worry about erosion of bouldering areas really come down to a concern for the aesthetics of our local haunt and a preference for green grass at the bottom of a favourite V2 over bare earth. Maybe being a bit cheesed that too many hopefuls have been chucking themselves at a three star V7 and have snapped a crucial pebble off. This level of environmental degradation pales beside the stuff we all choose to ignore.
From a study by the United Nations University:
"The study examines a variety of environmental impacts associated with computer production processes. The main impacts are believed to be:
Significant energy use in the production and operation of computers.
Possible long-term health effects on workers, families and neighboring communities due to chemical exposure and emissions from production stages such as microchip fabrication.
Possible health impacts due to exposure to hazardous materials contained in computer products, in particular brominated flame retardants and lead. The main risk of exposure is probably from computers that have been dumped in landfills or from environmentally unsafe recycling processes in the developing world.
The high-tech nature of computer manufacturing makes it extremely energy intensive and therefore significant for climate change and depletion of fossil fuel resources.
Although computers use relatively less energy when they are in operation, the combination of a high-energy manufacturing process and a short lifespan raise its lifetime environment-related energy impacts to about the same level as a refrigerator, which is one of the more energy-intensive appliances in the home.
Monitors, and to a lesser extent computers, contain significant quantities of heavy metals such as lead, mercury, cadmium and chromium, which pose potential health risks to production workers and environmental risks to water supplies near landfills where they are eventually dumped."
"This study clearly shows that our current understanding of the health and environmental impacts of computers is inadequate," said UN Under Secretary-General and UNU Rector Hans van Ginkel. "We can no longer ignore the potential for serious long-term problems."
That may well be true but I bet anyone a slice of carrot cake that "ignore it" we will!
From a study by the United Nations University:
"The study examines a variety of environmental impacts associated with computer production processes. The main impacts are believed to be:
Significant energy use in the production and operation of computers.
Possible long-term health effects on workers, families and neighboring communities due to chemical exposure and emissions from production stages such as microchip fabrication.
Possible health impacts due to exposure to hazardous materials contained in computer products, in particular brominated flame retardants and lead. The main risk of exposure is probably from computers that have been dumped in landfills or from environmentally unsafe recycling processes in the developing world.
The high-tech nature of computer manufacturing makes it extremely energy intensive and therefore significant for climate change and depletion of fossil fuel resources.
Although computers use relatively less energy when they are in operation, the combination of a high-energy manufacturing process and a short lifespan raise its lifetime environment-related energy impacts to about the same level as a refrigerator, which is one of the more energy-intensive appliances in the home.
Monitors, and to a lesser extent computers, contain significant quantities of heavy metals such as lead, mercury, cadmium and chromium, which pose potential health risks to production workers and environmental risks to water supplies near landfills where they are eventually dumped."
"This study clearly shows that our current understanding of the health and environmental impacts of computers is inadequate," said UN Under Secretary-General and UNU Rector Hans van Ginkel. "We can no longer ignore the potential for serious long-term problems."
That may well be true but I bet anyone a slice of carrot cake that "ignore it" we will!
In reply to kajsurfer:
> This level of environmental degradation pales beside the stuff we all choose to ignore.
>
too right >
In reply to JDal:
I have witnessed groups abbing down Audacity a few times this year - I've only been going to the crag on-off for 6 months which isn't good
I have witnessed groups abbing down Audacity a few times this year - I've only been going to the crag on-off for 6 months which isn't good
In reply to kajsurfer:
Speak for yourself about what we do or don't 'choose to ignore', but equally don't dismiss the little (?) local efforts we *can* make.
> ... This level of environmental degradation pales beside the stuff we all choose to ignore ...
Speak for yourself about what we do or don't 'choose to ignore', but equally don't dismiss the little (?) local efforts we *can* make.
In reply to qwerty2:
My computer is second hand recycled. I don't leave my telly on standby. I only use ecofriendly soap and lightbulbs. I eat organic food. We follow the if it's yellow let it mellow approach to toilet flushing. We share baths. I don't run the tap while brushing my teeth. I don't eat animal hostilities. I recycle all the waste I can and never use supermarket plastic bags. All commendable I reckon, BUT I am typing this and will travel by fossil fuel again. I ignore the damage I cause to maintain my sanity, try to compensate to some degree with all the things I have mentioned already, BUT as a society and species we do IGNORE, will continue to IGNORE and it will continue to get worse. I am a pessimist as I have said before but I do try to do my hopeless bit. I dismiss no effort and applaude it with all my heart and soul. Please, don't put words into my mouth.
Love and Peace Kaj
> (In reply to kajsurfer)
>
> [...]
>
> Speak for yourself about what we do or don't 'choose to ignore', but equally don't dismiss the little (?) local efforts we *can* make.
>
> [...]
>
> Speak for yourself about what we do or don't 'choose to ignore', but equally don't dismiss the little (?) local efforts we *can* make.
My computer is second hand recycled. I don't leave my telly on standby. I only use ecofriendly soap and lightbulbs. I eat organic food. We follow the if it's yellow let it mellow approach to toilet flushing. We share baths. I don't run the tap while brushing my teeth. I don't eat animal hostilities. I recycle all the waste I can and never use supermarket plastic bags. All commendable I reckon, BUT I am typing this and will travel by fossil fuel again. I ignore the damage I cause to maintain my sanity, try to compensate to some degree with all the things I have mentioned already, BUT as a society and species we do IGNORE, will continue to IGNORE and it will continue to get worse. I am a pessimist as I have said before but I do try to do my hopeless bit. I dismiss no effort and applaude it with all my heart and soul. Please, don't put words into my mouth.
Love and Peace Kaj
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