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i phoned up the lodge earlier hoping to find out about a winter clibming corse. so i can improve and stop bullshtting. however they won't take me on the grounds that i am under 18 and can't cope with the phyical strain.
I allready exsplained that i had allready done some winter climbing and lead E1/2 on the big mountain crags, but want to progress to leading grade V.
what a load of bollocks. i am just as fit, if not fitter than some london pen pusher who fanices some ice climbing.
i have since spoken to several guide who have said they would have me, but can't because they don't have an ALAA licence.
Are the lodge being unreasonable?
I allready exsplained that i had allready done some winter climbing and lead E1/2 on the big mountain crags, but want to progress to leading grade V.
what a load of bollocks. i am just as fit, if not fitter than some london pen pusher who fanices some ice climbing.
i have since spoken to several guide who have said they would have me, but can't because they don't have an ALAA licence.
Are the lodge being unreasonable?
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: I reckon so. Just 'cause you're under 18 it don't mean that you're any better/worse than someone 20, 30 etc. It should go on experience and as you say you already have what i would call enough experience (well more than me at any rate!).
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
Probably not - they are probably worried about their legal responisibility towards you - if you are under 18 they are to some extent "in loco parentis", and if you get hurt they can't say that it was at your own risk and that you were fully aware of the potential dangers.
Probably not - they are probably worried about their legal responisibility towards you - if you are under 18 they are to some extent "in loco parentis", and if you get hurt they can't say that it was at your own risk and that you were fully aware of the potential dangers.
In reply to Wingman@work: + alice:
it isn't for insurence reasons. the lodge are an alaa redgistered orginisation, which allows them to take under 18s into the outdoor without supervison of their parnets/gardians.
it isn't for insurence reasons. the lodge are an alaa redgistered orginisation, which allows them to take under 18s into the outdoor without supervison of their parnets/gardians.
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
but want to progress to leading grade V.
Dear Tom
No. Some people who work at the Lodge read/post this site. They may think there is little hope for you and they have keep up their reputation.
Norrie
PS Get real, Grade V is not hard, for someone like you.
but want to progress to leading grade V.
>
> Are the lodge being unreasonable?
> Are the lodge being unreasonable?
Dear Tom
No. Some people who work at the Lodge read/post this site. They may think there is little hope for you and they have keep up their reputation.
Norrie
PS Get real, Grade V is not hard, for someone like you.
In reply to Norrie Muir: hopefully they will also realise that not allowing people on corses purley on age is a bollocks theory.
exspirence/fitness are much more important. as several of the guides i have spoken to have said.
if all else fails will you take me??
exspirence/fitness are much more important. as several of the guides i have spoken to have said.
if all else fails will you take me??
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: I went with PYB when 17 and so did 2 other guys on my course.
Ask PYB or ask the lodge for a parental consent form or anything else they might need that would help.
Ask PYB or ask the lodge for a parental consent form or anything else they might need that would help.
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
Tom
What are you looking for in a winter climbing course and what times over the winter are you wanting to get out. If you don'y mind me asking, exactly how old are you?
I'm just starting in the British Mountain Guides training scheme and will be doing some free guiding and instruction this winter to get some milage with clients in. Depending on a few things i might be able to help you out.
Send me an email on jaechamonix at hotmail dot com with you particulars.
James e
Tom
What are you looking for in a winter climbing course and what times over the winter are you wanting to get out. If you don'y mind me asking, exactly how old are you?
I'm just starting in the British Mountain Guides training scheme and will be doing some free guiding and instruction this winter to get some milage with clients in. Depending on a few things i might be able to help you out.
Send me an email on jaechamonix at hotmail dot com with you particulars.
James e
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
Apparently the Ice Factor has an AALA licence...
Please excuse the blatant plug.
Apparently the Ice Factor has an AALA licence...
Please excuse the blatant plug.
In reply to James Edwards: you have mail
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
In defence of the Lodge, I would suggest that it is neccessary for them to delineate on age, as this is more easily established than experience, fitness etc.
Of course plenty of climbers below that age have the staying power to cope with long back-to-back days in foul weather, and many above that age don't! But a line has to be drawn somewhere and they obviously feel that below 18 the chances of somebody getting dangerously out of their depth start to increase exponentialy. Younger folk do tend to feel the cold more.
Wouldn't take it personal like.
In defence of the Lodge, I would suggest that it is neccessary for them to delineate on age, as this is more easily established than experience, fitness etc.
Of course plenty of climbers below that age have the staying power to cope with long back-to-back days in foul weather, and many above that age don't! But a line has to be drawn somewhere and they obviously feel that below 18 the chances of somebody getting dangerously out of their depth start to increase exponentialy. Younger folk do tend to feel the cold more.
Wouldn't take it personal like.
In reply to Jamie B.:
How about a young persons intro to winter climbing thing at glenmore lodge - surely an oppurtunity to make sure people are safe and stuff. Isn't there a UK winter climbing Conville thingy too?
How about a young persons intro to winter climbing thing at glenmore lodge - surely an oppurtunity to make sure people are safe and stuff. Isn't there a UK winter climbing Conville thingy too?
In reply to thingy: i don't want an intro thanks. i want to learn how to lead safley and push my grade.
james edwards, i've sent you a mail through the forums. cos your hotmail didn't work.
james edwards, i've sent you a mail through the forums. cos your hotmail didn't work.
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
Tough shit you little jerk. Not everyone in London is a pen pusher as you call them. Grow up, it is no wonder they won't allow little kids on the course (note correct spelling)!
> i phoned up the lodge earlier hoping to find out about a winter clibming corse. so i can improve and stop bullshtting. however they won't take me on the grounds that i am under 18 and can't cope with the phyical strain.
>
> I allready exsplained that i had allready done some winter climbing and lead E1/2 on the big mountain crags, but want to progress to leading grade V.
>
> what a load of bollocks. i am just as fit, if not fitter than some london pen pusher who fanices some ice climbing.
>
> i have since spoken to several guide who have said they would have me, but can't because they don't have an ALAA licence.
>
> Are the lodge being unreasonable?
>
> I allready exsplained that i had allready done some winter climbing and lead E1/2 on the big mountain crags, but want to progress to leading grade V.
>
> what a load of bollocks. i am just as fit, if not fitter than some london pen pusher who fanices some ice climbing.
>
> i have since spoken to several guide who have said they would have me, but can't because they don't have an ALAA licence.
>
> Are the lodge being unreasonable?
Tough shit you little jerk. Not everyone in London is a pen pusher as you call them. Grow up, it is no wonder they won't allow little kids on the course (note correct spelling)!
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
Hi again Tom
I've not got the email. I've always had problems with the ukc forwarding. Try my business email highmountaineering at gmail dot com
James
Hi again Tom
I've not got the email. I've always had problems with the ukc forwarding. Try my business email highmountaineering at gmail dot com
James
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
That logic doesn't necessarily hold, I'm afraid!
The fact they have an ALAA licence means they can legally take under-18s on the activities that licence covers.
They still need to find a company willing to insure them to do that, and that's getting harder. Parents are quite happily making insurance claims for kids who break their arm playing in a hall, and getting settlements of thousands of pounds - think of the possible insurance payout from ice-climbing injuries!
> it isn't for insurence reasons. the lodge are an alaa redgistered orginisation, which allows them to take under 18s into the outdoor without supervison of their parnets/gardians.
That logic doesn't necessarily hold, I'm afraid!
The fact they have an ALAA licence means they can legally take under-18s on the activities that licence covers.
They still need to find a company willing to insure them to do that, and that's getting harder. Parents are quite happily making insurance claims for kids who break their arm playing in a hall, and getting settlements of thousands of pounds - think of the possible insurance payout from ice-climbing injuries!
In reply to Rich Clayton:
A little harsh me thinks.
I think the point he is making is that they will accept some 40-odd year old overweight desk bound bloke whose only exercise he gets is walking to the pub 4 times a week but not a fit and strong 17 year old lad.
A little harsh me thinks.
I think the point he is making is that they will accept some 40-odd year old overweight desk bound bloke whose only exercise he gets is walking to the pub 4 times a week but not a fit and strong 17 year old lad.
Tom
Can you phone the me on 01479 861256 - ask to speak to George Mc
Cheers fur noo
George
Can you phone the me on 01479 861256 - ask to speak to George Mc
Cheers fur noo
George
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
There you are, a message to call the lodge, stop stamping your feet now.
Of course, you may still not be fit enough for a climbing course but up to a winter skills course.
There you are, a message to call the lodge, stop stamping your feet now.
Of course, you may still not be fit enough for a climbing course but up to a winter skills course.
In reply to george mc:
Dear George
Tom knows a great deal about Scottish winter climbing, by the end of the course, your knowledge will have increased 10 fold. It is a shame as it is his experience of Scottish winter climbing that lets him down. I look forward to Tom's tales of actually winter climbing, so make sure he does not do soft touch routes.
Norrie
Dear George
Tom knows a great deal about Scottish winter climbing, by the end of the course, your knowledge will have increased 10 fold. It is a shame as it is his experience of Scottish winter climbing that lets him down. I look forward to Tom's tales of actually winter climbing, so make sure he does not do soft touch routes.
Norrie
Concerns about the difficulty of identifying safety standards at Adventure Activities Centres or individuals resulted (in 1995) in the Government introducing compulsory inspection and licensing for activity centres providing adventure activities to young people (17 years old and under) known as the Adventure Activities Licensing Act (AALA).
The Licensing Scheme came into force on 16 April 1996 and all those who provide adventure activities that come within scope of the Licensing Regulations 1996 must be licensed. Winter climbing (including mountaineering etc) comes within scope of the legislation. Glenmore Lodge is a licensed provider of adventure courses. If an individual is under 18 then we do need the consent of either parents/guardians before we can take a booking. That is the law and we have to abide by the law.
As I am sure you all know winter mountaineering is physically tough. Our courses, especially the climbing courses do entail a great deal of physical effort. By the end of the week most of the people attending the course are pretty tired, as you’d expect. The majority of people who attend our course are not unfit; on the contrary they are usually active in the outdoors and are correspondingly fit. There is also the risk that the unexpected can happen and we find ourselves when out on the hill having to cope with ferocious conditions which can make enormous physical and mental demands on both instructors and students. We have to be very clear, even when working with over 18s that our students will cope with this environment.
As a general principle individuals under 18 may or may not have these physical and mental reserves. An individual in their early to mid teens is still in a state of physical and emotional development, as such coping with such extreme conditions can prove problematic.
Obviously having experience of being out in winter matters, but as a provider of the activity we (Glenmore Lodge) have a Duty of care and are operating ‘In Loco parentis’. That means we have to make very sure that before taking under 18 year on courses that we can safely and reasonably discharge that duty. As the majority of our winter students are fit and experienced adults, you can see that we cannot just allow as a matter of course under 18s to book on a course without any sort of check or confirmation of their experience. Failing to confirm their experience could lead to the situation where you have a strong, fit and active twenty or thirty something, with a fourteen year old who has been climbing in an indoor wall a couple of times.
However, as the Scottish national centre we do recognise that there are a great many strong, fit and active teenagers just itching to develop their winter mountaineering and climbing skills. In such situations we treat each case on their individual merits. Part of that process, and as required from us by law, would be to contact the parents/guardians of the individual and discuss the nature of their course their youngster is looking to undertake. For sure we would also check their climbing background, experience, fitness etc.
It makes this whole process easier if under 17s were to come as a pair, then provided their experience etc is appropriate for the course, and the have the appropriate consent then we can team them up and run their course – no problem. Equally they can book on a course alongside a parent/guardian who they would be teamed up with (again this has happened in the past).
I guess as can be seen from earlier posts there is a bit of confusion about the provision of outdoor course for under 18s. To recap, if you are providing climbing courses for individuals who are 17 or under for financial reward then you come within scope of AALA. This is law, and failing to abide by the law could see you or the organisation in court. Regardless of your views of such legislation that is the law of the land. Glenmore Lodge as a recognised provider of such course operates within the scope of the AALA when providing course for 17 year olds and under. The law requires us to operate in a specific way in such cases, again regardless of your views we have to abide by the law. However, within this legal framework we do our utmost to see how best we can accommodate an individuals mountaineering aspirations.
Hope the above does help to clear up some of this confusion.
George McEwan
Glenmore Lodge Head of Mountaineering
The Licensing Scheme came into force on 16 April 1996 and all those who provide adventure activities that come within scope of the Licensing Regulations 1996 must be licensed. Winter climbing (including mountaineering etc) comes within scope of the legislation. Glenmore Lodge is a licensed provider of adventure courses. If an individual is under 18 then we do need the consent of either parents/guardians before we can take a booking. That is the law and we have to abide by the law.
As I am sure you all know winter mountaineering is physically tough. Our courses, especially the climbing courses do entail a great deal of physical effort. By the end of the week most of the people attending the course are pretty tired, as you’d expect. The majority of people who attend our course are not unfit; on the contrary they are usually active in the outdoors and are correspondingly fit. There is also the risk that the unexpected can happen and we find ourselves when out on the hill having to cope with ferocious conditions which can make enormous physical and mental demands on both instructors and students. We have to be very clear, even when working with over 18s that our students will cope with this environment.
As a general principle individuals under 18 may or may not have these physical and mental reserves. An individual in their early to mid teens is still in a state of physical and emotional development, as such coping with such extreme conditions can prove problematic.
Obviously having experience of being out in winter matters, but as a provider of the activity we (Glenmore Lodge) have a Duty of care and are operating ‘In Loco parentis’. That means we have to make very sure that before taking under 18 year on courses that we can safely and reasonably discharge that duty. As the majority of our winter students are fit and experienced adults, you can see that we cannot just allow as a matter of course under 18s to book on a course without any sort of check or confirmation of their experience. Failing to confirm their experience could lead to the situation where you have a strong, fit and active twenty or thirty something, with a fourteen year old who has been climbing in an indoor wall a couple of times.
However, as the Scottish national centre we do recognise that there are a great many strong, fit and active teenagers just itching to develop their winter mountaineering and climbing skills. In such situations we treat each case on their individual merits. Part of that process, and as required from us by law, would be to contact the parents/guardians of the individual and discuss the nature of their course their youngster is looking to undertake. For sure we would also check their climbing background, experience, fitness etc.
It makes this whole process easier if under 17s were to come as a pair, then provided their experience etc is appropriate for the course, and the have the appropriate consent then we can team them up and run their course – no problem. Equally they can book on a course alongside a parent/guardian who they would be teamed up with (again this has happened in the past).
I guess as can be seen from earlier posts there is a bit of confusion about the provision of outdoor course for under 18s. To recap, if you are providing climbing courses for individuals who are 17 or under for financial reward then you come within scope of AALA. This is law, and failing to abide by the law could see you or the organisation in court. Regardless of your views of such legislation that is the law of the land. Glenmore Lodge as a recognised provider of such course operates within the scope of the AALA when providing course for 17 year olds and under. The law requires us to operate in a specific way in such cases, again regardless of your views we have to abide by the law. However, within this legal framework we do our utmost to see how best we can accommodate an individuals mountaineering aspirations.
Hope the above does help to clear up some of this confusion.
George McEwan
Glenmore Lodge Head of Mountaineering
In reply to James Edwards: james you've got mail on the highmountaineering site. can you give me a ring on 01768 881386 please?
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: just go with PYB they took my brother when he was 17 on a winter course
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
Judging by this thread I think you'd struggle with the "mental strain" more than the physical. If you throw your toys out of the pram at a small set back like this how are you going to cope when your nearly hypothermic, shitting yourself, belaying of a tied off peg, lost, it's getting dark and your generally having an epic?
Or maybe they've just read your kit list threads...
Judging by this thread I think you'd struggle with the "mental strain" more than the physical. If you throw your toys out of the pram at a small set back like this how are you going to cope when your nearly hypothermic, shitting yourself, belaying of a tied off peg, lost, it's getting dark and your generally having an epic?
Or maybe they've just read your kit list threads...
In reply to Removed User: well thanks for useful contribution to this thread. however, i have now spoken to the lodge and they are happy to have me on a course.
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
'I have since spoken to several guide who have said they would have me, but can't because that don't have an AALA licence.'
I wonder why?
Daily Mail,(page 23) Thursday, Oct 19, 2006. A report by the governments 'Better Regulation Commission' has: '...ridiculed the Adventure Activities Licensing Authority set up in the aftermath of the 1993 Lyme Bay canoeing disaster...whilst only 13 organisations have been refused licences, 600 activity centres have closed (your freedom of choice reduced) thanks to the additional costs involved.'
The vast majority of activity centers do not receive massive government grants with which to survive / compete.
'I have since spoken to several guide who have said they would have me, but can't because that don't have an AALA licence.'
I wonder why?
Daily Mail,(page 23) Thursday, Oct 19, 2006. A report by the governments 'Better Regulation Commission' has: '...ridiculed the Adventure Activities Licensing Authority set up in the aftermath of the 1993 Lyme Bay canoeing disaster...whilst only 13 organisations have been refused licences, 600 activity centres have closed (your freedom of choice reduced) thanks to the additional costs involved.'
The vast majority of activity centers do not receive massive government grants with which to survive / compete.
In reply to climbright:
You don't want believe everything you read mate, especially from such a worthy media organ at the Dail Mail. Here read the report for yourself and make up your own mind whether it 'ridicules' the AALA legislation...
http://www.brc.gov.uk/downloads/pdf/risk_res_reg.pdf
Cheers fur noo
George
> (In reply to Tom Ripley)
>
> 'I have since spoken to several guide who have said they would have me, but can't because that don't have an AALA licence.'
>
> I wonder why?
>
> Daily Mail,(page 23) Thursday, Oct 19, 2006. A report by the governments 'Better Regulation Commission' has: '...ridiculed the Adventure Activities Licensing Authority set up in the aftermath of the 1993 Lyme Bay canoeing disaster...whilst only 13 organisations have been refused licences, 600 activity centres have closed (your freedom of choice reduced) thanks to the additional costs involved.'
>
> The vast majority of activity centers do not receive massive government grants with which to survive / compete.
>
> 'I have since spoken to several guide who have said they would have me, but can't because that don't have an AALA licence.'
>
> I wonder why?
>
> Daily Mail,(page 23) Thursday, Oct 19, 2006. A report by the governments 'Better Regulation Commission' has: '...ridiculed the Adventure Activities Licensing Authority set up in the aftermath of the 1993 Lyme Bay canoeing disaster...whilst only 13 organisations have been refused licences, 600 activity centres have closed (your freedom of choice reduced) thanks to the additional costs involved.'
>
> The vast majority of activity centers do not receive massive government grants with which to survive / compete.
You don't want believe everything you read mate, especially from such a worthy media organ at the Dail Mail. Here read the report for yourself and make up your own mind whether it 'ridicules' the AALA legislation...
http://www.brc.gov.uk/downloads/pdf/risk_res_reg.pdf
Cheers fur noo
George
In reply to george mc:
It's an interesting read, thanks.
The assumption seems to be that there were 1500 centres (estimated, because they weren't previously licenced), half applied for licences and the half that didn't must have therefore closed. It is pretty questionable logic. Did vast numbers of centres really close in 1995? Were hundreds of instructors suddenly unemployed? I don't work in the industry but I know people who do and I can't say I remember it that way. What may have happened is a significant number of freelance instructors, previously operating as "centres", continued to operate much as before with adults but became subcontractors to larger centres so far as work with minors was concerned.
It's an interesting read, thanks.
The assumption seems to be that there were 1500 centres (estimated, because they weren't previously licenced), half applied for licences and the half that didn't must have therefore closed. It is pretty questionable logic. Did vast numbers of centres really close in 1995? Were hundreds of instructors suddenly unemployed? I don't work in the industry but I know people who do and I can't say I remember it that way. What may have happened is a significant number of freelance instructors, previously operating as "centres", continued to operate much as before with adults but became subcontractors to larger centres so far as work with minors was concerned.
In reply to climbright:
Ironic isnt it, one of the things highlighted in the report is the media's use of emotive language to 'make' news. The report doesnt seem to 'ridicule' the AALA at all. It only points out how regulation is often the default response to issues whipped up by the media and that AALA is an example of where it did not entirely solve the original problem and created a few further issues of its own. The Mail has taken a half truth and painted it in the most 'newsworthy (read 'sensationalist') manner possible.
Re: the figures quoted as Stefan says there does seem to be a bit of an assumption here. Many sole providers have gone to freelancing for larger licensed outfits and many providers limit themself to working with adults/children with parents present only and so do not fall within the remit of the license.
Interesting report - cheers George.
Al
Ironic isnt it, one of the things highlighted in the report is the media's use of emotive language to 'make' news. The report doesnt seem to 'ridicule' the AALA at all. It only points out how regulation is often the default response to issues whipped up by the media and that AALA is an example of where it did not entirely solve the original problem and created a few further issues of its own. The Mail has taken a half truth and painted it in the most 'newsworthy (read 'sensationalist') manner possible.
Re: the figures quoted as Stefan says there does seem to be a bit of an assumption here. Many sole providers have gone to freelancing for larger licensed outfits and many providers limit themself to working with adults/children with parents present only and so do not fall within the remit of the license.
Interesting report - cheers George.
Al
In reply to Stefan Lloyd:
In Scotland a number of Centres didn't apply for licences and closed round about that time - but it had nothing to do with AALA. It was instead to do with reorganisation of Local Authorities which, due to the creation of smaller authorities, meant that some centres could no longer be supported. Unfortunately Centres do come and go - licensing may have had some effect but I never came across this - by far the biggest effect was the changes to the Local Authorities which led to the loss of some well established providers.
In Scotland a number of Centres didn't apply for licences and closed round about that time - but it had nothing to do with AALA. It was instead to do with reorganisation of Local Authorities which, due to the creation of smaller authorities, meant that some centres could no longer be supported. Unfortunately Centres do come and go - licensing may have had some effect but I never came across this - by far the biggest effect was the changes to the Local Authorities which led to the loss of some well established providers.
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: Get hold of Andy Nisbet. As well as being one of the countries top winter climbers for over the past 30 years he is also a top guide and still climbs at VII at 53!!! I booked him last year and we did the tower on Nevis, he was happy to climb grade IV with me and i was only 16 at the time.
John
John
In reply to Swain16:
He is also a very decent and accommodating bloke who sent me a copy of a very rare Inverness area guide book despite not knowing me from Adam.
A good man (not to mention a greatly experienced climber) for sure.
In fact I have his personal e-mail address and would put you in touch if you're seriously interested Tom.
Andy
> Get hold of Andy Nisbet. As well as being one of the countries top winter climbers for over the past 30 years he is also a top guide and still climbs at VII at 53!!!
He is also a very decent and accommodating bloke who sent me a copy of a very rare Inverness area guide book despite not knowing me from Adam.
A good man (not to mention a greatly experienced climber) for sure.
In fact I have his personal e-mail address and would put you in touch if you're seriously interested Tom.
Andy
In reply to Mac Ghille Aindrais:
I'd support your recomendation for Andy. Even though I fit the OP's description of fat, deskbound and over-40 (but since when have any of those been a crime FFS) he's managed to help me have some tremendous days out in the winter.
I'd support your recomendation for Andy. Even though I fit the OP's description of fat, deskbound and over-40 (but since when have any of those been a crime FFS) he's managed to help me have some tremendous days out in the winter.
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