UKC

Ok so at the moment it is the general consensus that the eVent membrane is better than Gore-tex. But how so when (scientific bit coming up) both Gore-tex and eVent use a membrane of exactly the same chemical formula e-PTFE, both have oleophobic molecules integrated into its structure aswell as hudrophillic and hydrophobic molecules. So chemically theres no difference so why is it then that people get up in arms over this subject?

Over to you!

In reply to Gaz lord: Will tell you in a few weeks, I am off to Cham, and have used goretex and xcr. Just got a Latock alpine, so will see how it performs.

gore-tex need to put a layer of material next to the skin to stop oil contamination from the skin etc. otherwise the pores in the ptfc will get blocked . this means that the moisture must first condense on the pu layer next the skin then diffuse from that out of the ptfe layer .

Event does away with the layer next by treating the ptfe membrane in a some secret way . therefore water vaper can pass straight through the membrane without condenseing first , hense the term direct venting .

That is what i heard anyway . im sure there is other bits to it

my mistake gtx have a layer of oleophobic stuff!

Still if eVent is the most breathable why is it that Mountain Equipment, Mountain Hardwear, Arc'teryx and other top highly trusted brands dont use eVent. Must be a corporate thing!

In reply to Gaz lord:
They are contracted to Goretex.
In the same way that Lowe Alpine had to switch from Event to Goretex when they were bought by (Goretex contracted) Italian boot manufacturer Asolo

i Know of a small swedish brand klatermusen that switched to event a few years ago but have recently switched to using pu fabrics .This is because of the enviromental damage ptfe fabric manufacture courses to the enviroment due to teflon i think . they seem to think that a few years down the line most companys will have to switch as well .
In tests pu fabrics have been found to be just as breatherble with the added benifit of being streachy but oil contamination can be a problem on the tapes after heavy use .

Im sure gore tex are will be develping a new type of fabric to replace ptfe in a few years for when everyone realises how bad they are to the enviroment

ok, the difference is pretty much summed up by Winter burn in how eVent does away with the layer next to the skin by bonding that layer to each fiber instead, thus not having a permanent barrier and allowing "direct venting".

On the reasons why brands choose either Goretex or eVent, that a matter of consumer pressure and pressure from Gore and eVent themselves. Gore will not give a Goretex licence to anyone using eVent material, so suppliers have to choose between the 2. Although eVent is growing in popularity it still has a long way to go to match the brand awareness of Goretex, and remember that gore have lots of years of selling to not just climbers but the british market at every level, right down to the dog walkers and golfers amongst us. Educating these people to eVent and making them believe in it is not going to be easy. So, brands have to base their choice on mass market appeal. for very specialist brands like Montane and Rab who do not really have a mass market appeal this is easier, but for the likes of Berghaus and Mountain Equipment its a much tougher decision to make.

On the actual difference in performance between Goretex and eVent, from talking to a lot of reps from Gore, eVent and many manufactureres, I feel that eVent fairs best when compared to Goretex Paclite.
In comparison, eVent is more breathable than Paclite, similar in terms of weight and durability and possible pack size. If pushed against Paclite in the technical market it does very well. However, compared to standard Goretex and XCR it doesnt do so well because an eVent jacket will not be as durable. Many feel that eVent made a ballsup here by pushing eVent at a wide range of uses, when it works best for fast moving, lightweight designs.
Obviously durabillity is partly dictated by face fabric as well, but there seems to be a general feeling that an XCR jacket will last longer than an eVent one of similar weight.

hope that helps answer some questions. Personally I think eVent is great, I have a very lightweight Event shell and it definitely breaths a lot better than my old Berghaus Paclite did. But, having heard the durability arguements from various suppliers, I went with XCR for my Mountain Jacket.

In reply to winter_burn: Too true my old MHW jacket had black seam tape after use due to oil contamination! The next one should be environmentaly friendly and cheap!

In reply to Gaz lord:

The basic membrane in both Gore-tex and Event is expanded PTFE. This is a gas permeable membrane.

When Gore originally introduced Gore-tex, they used this membrane on its own, and it breathed beautifully. Unfortunately, it was found that the pores in the membrane became blocked by body oil contaminants, which led to a breach of the membrane by a process of reverse osmosis.

Their solution was to apply a thin PU layer to the ePTFE membrane to stop oil getting to the ePTFE. They don't like to talk about it, but, if you compare the breathability tests of Gore-tex and PU coated fabrics, you will notice that they behave in a very similar manner. Gore-tex breathes better than a PU coating because the PU layer is thinner.

Some Gore-tex fabrics are still pure, gas-permeable membranes that don't have the PU coating; Gore-tex Exchange, for instance, which uses the increased breathability and gas permability for applications such as bivvy bags and tents.

Event uses a different method of protecting the ePTFE pores, by applying a protective layer at a microscopic level, coating the inner surfaces of the pores themselves. Thus, the Event membrane remains gas permeable, as demonstrated by their 'bubbler' units.

Unfortunately, Event have also found that their pores become blocked by oil contaminants. However, their solution is to use a detergent wash to remove this oil, then wash with soap to remove detergent residues that would otherwise compromise the DWR (detergents are much better at removing oils than soaps).

is that true? I never saw that on the care labels, but I take your word for it.

I thought that detergents don't only compromise the DWR when there's detergent residues in the fabric, but that washing with detergents actually removes the DWR treatment. Again, I take your word for it and will follow your suggested process in future - wash with detergent first, then with pure soap - but are you sure? If detergent doesn't remove the DWR, that's good news, otherwise one would need to use some spray-on DWR after the detergent and soap wash cycles.

In reply to nb290:

Detergent doesn't as I understand it, remove the DWR. It simply negates the effect, acting as a wetting agent. By washing with soap, you can remove the detergent residues, thus restoring the DWR. The life of the DWR is finite, and any washing will affect it, so yes, after-market treatments such as Nikwax or Grangers are to be recommend eventually.

The advice re Event and detergent was given by Julie Greengrass, Montane's designer, on a thread on OM, following her discussion of the problem with BHA Technologies (Event manufacturer). It is not suggested that detergent is used for normal washing, but that it is the solution to the problem of oil contamination. Can't seem to find the thread at the moment, but I'll see if I can dig it out. I may already have posted in here, so search threads for outdoorsmagic.

I wouldn't recommend detergent on EPIC or Patagonia's Deluge DWR; these are silicone based, and I've heard reports that detergent residues seem to bind permanently, and soap washing doesn't remove them (Dave Hunter, formerly of this parish, and R&R's gear guru reported this problem).

In reply to welshdragon: I just no longer own a heavy jacket. I was sold this way against my better judgement to a precip ( the proper no frills one) and now have a precip and a superfly-if I can find the bloody thing.

forget the extra weight, it's not needed, just sold to you.

yes, they will wear out quicker.

In reply to captain paranoia:


http://www.OUTDOORSmagic.com/forum/forummessages.asp?URN=5&UTN=9681

Read the post by 'julie' (Greengrass).