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NEW REVIEW: Lake District Winter Climbs by Bob Wightman

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 Michael Ryan 18 Dec 2006
Bob Wightman writes.............."This is actually one of the most interesting parts of the guide, and I suspect the most work in terms of research, it has certainly expanded since the previous edition. The first winter ascent of Bowfell Buttress for example goes back from 1963 to 1937/8.

Also intriguing are hints of ascents of modern classics such as Botterill’s Slab in the early 1900s. Perhaps standards haven’t come on as much as we would like to think. Tellingly, given the rich history of the early pioneers, the last twenty years’ first ascents have few tales, has this most esoteric of climbing games become just another soulless tick?"

Read the full review here..... http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=286
 Norrie Muir 18 Dec 2006
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I had a quick peruse of the new guidebook at the weekend. It looked well laid out with plenty of photos and diagrams. Although I have never winter climbed in the Lakes, there is still plenty of potential for more routes, if good conditions ever occur.

I will however, stick with Scotland for winter climbing
 Erik B 18 Dec 2006
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Ive had a good read of this book, very uninspiring and drole it has to be said, some very poor photos as well, (Martins photos are good though). so to summarise, this book makes me glad I dont have to winter climb in the lakes, but if your keen on signing up to a highly boring history lesson in lakeland winter climbing then this is the book for you.

prana 18 Dec 2006
In reply to Erik B & Norris: roflmao
Simon22 18 Dec 2006
In reply to Erik B:

You don't need a book to make you glad you don't have to winter climb in the Lakes, the weather down here is enough! Good conditions are rarer than wins for Leeds these days. When it's good it's very good but most of the time it is horrid..............

This book has to be a definite improvement on the last one.
 Simon Caldwell 18 Dec 2006
In reply to Erik B:
> some very poor photos as well

Some of them are absolutely superb though...
 Skyfall 19 Dec 2006
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Mick, the link doesn't appear to link to Bob's review.
In reply to Erik B: most of the photos are piss poor. i agree. i didn't think it was 'that' boring, but maybe it is me.

the new routes bit is huge, and very dull compaired to the superb cloggy guide.
In reply to Norrie Muir: as it is a winter guide, why didn't they make it as two books, the actually guide book and the new routes and historical section book. they could have put them together similar to the permbroke or cornwall guide book. it would then mean that a much smaller book could be taken on the hill.
OP Michael Ryan 19 Dec 2006
In reply to JonC:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> Mick, the link doesn't appear to link to Bob's review.

Hi Jon

Empty your cache or refresh. We added Bob's review onto the existing FRCC blurb.

Mick

 Norrie Muir 19 Dec 2006
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
> (In reply to Norrie Muir) as it is a winter guide, why didn't they make it as two books, the actually guide book and the new routes and historical section book. they could have put them together similar to the permbroke or cornwall guide book. it would then mean that a much smaller book could be taken on the hill.

Why ask me, I never take a guidebook out in the winter, I'm not a sheep.
In reply to Norrie Muir: what happens if you go off route? you can't legitimate claim it them.

of course climbing is about having fun rather than ticking routes, but i still like to know what if done/doing.
 Simon Caldwell 19 Dec 2006
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
> it would then mean that a much smaller book could be taken on the hill

Do you actually have a copy? The one in front of me is a perfect size to take on the hill. If you cut out the non-climbing pages, you'd save maybe 10% of the weight, if that. If you're so bothered about weight, either do like Norrie and leave the book behind, or tear the pages out and take just the one or two you want on any particular day

Personally I don't think it's big enough, they should have added a section on rock climbing and one on scrambling, as that's what I usually end up doing when I try to go winter climbing in the Lakes. They could also have made space for some more of those excellent photos.
Simon22 19 Dec 2006
In reply to Simon Caldwell:


Save 10% of the weight, about 50g? Perhaps he should lighten his load before he hits the hill by emptying his bladder before worrying about the size of a guidebook.

 Norrie Muir 19 Dec 2006
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

For nearly a 1000 winter routes the guidebook is not that bulky. Mind you, one does not need much description for such short routes, it is not the Grit afterall.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
> (In reply to Tom Ripley)
> [...]
>
> Do you actually have a copy?

2 (both are christmas presents for people) actually, i bought the first two ever sold... well according to the guy in needlesports

there is a book on rock climbing, its called lake district rock and it is significantly better.
Simon22 19 Dec 2006
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

If this book tells you where a route goes and what sort of grade you can expect then it does it's job.

Most people don't need inspiration from glossy photos (and coffee table books and the internet can do that if that's your thing), just an idea of where to go and what to do when it gets cold.
 Simon Caldwell 19 Dec 2006
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
> it is significantly better

It may or may not be (though it's certainly significantly bigger!). I'll wait until I've used the new one before deciding.
Anonymous 20 Dec 2006
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

A very good piece of work by Messrs Davison, Reid et al.
Great photos in the main.

Only points of critcism:

1. A rather encyclopedic work, which due to its compact nature, hardly inspires.

2. The history section. Is it me or does it appear to be a homage to Mr Davison's obsession?

3. Not doubting some of the older claimed ascents. However is there a bias towards some very vague / hysterical descriptions by establishment fiqures?

Is it cos' I is Scottish?

Davie "Parafinn" Sanderson
 Skyfall 20 Dec 2006
In reply to Anonymous:

I wouldn't know because the copy I ordered from Needlesports over a week ago gas yet to arrive...
 Bob 20 Dec 2006
In reply to Anonymous:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> A very good piece of work by Messrs Davison, Reid et al.
> Great photos in the main.
>
> Only points of critcism:
>
> 1. A rather encyclopedic work, which due to its compact nature, hardly inspires.
You seem to be saying that you can be all encompassing and dry or selective and inspiring. I disagree, inspiration comes from within not simply from text or photos, though those can be a trigger.
>
> 2. The history section. Is it me or does it appear to be a homage to Mr Davison's obsession?
The Lakes has had a chequered history with regards recording of winter climbs - in the early days there was no real distinction between winter and summer ascents and it is only in recent years that our subdivision of climbing into cliques that has enforced this research. I think it is one of the best parts of the book. It is also needed otherwise people will keep claiming some variant or other that was done in the 18/1980s. Having had to sort out the mess when this wasn't done in just one edition of a guide, I can assure you it is needed.
>
> 3. Not doubting some of the older claimed ascents. However is there a bias towards some very vague / hysterical descriptions by establishment fiqures?

I think that Brian has dealt an even hand here - after all if there is no explicit record of the conditions of an ascent but it is known that one took place then it would be remiss of him to ignore the possibility. By putting the idea in print it may be that someone may come forward with more definite data to support or deny the hypothesis.

As an example, I am credited with the first winter ascent of Hopkinson's Gully in 1986. However before I wrote the route up I did some checking and found that Hopkinson (no less) had "led a party in icy conditions a considerable distance up the Pinnacle Face" in 1887. Now how far did he get? Enough to negate my claim? I don't know but added the comment above in the new routes book. Presumably, since the above quote is not in the new guide, Brian has found that it wasn't far enough to count as a first ascent.
>
> Is it cos' I is Scottish?

No

>

boB

Stephen Reid 20 Dec 2006
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Many thanks to Bob for the positive review. I'm sorry to read comments such as "very poor photos" - the effort made to get hold of them was enormous, but numerous appeals fell on largely deaf ears. This seems to be always the case with guidebooks though, no-one submits photos, and then when the guide appears lots of people critcise them, and then you discover most of those never carry a camera when they are climbing - if you don't take climbing photos yourself then your critism of the efforts of others is pretty worthless in my opinion. However, work is ongoing on other FRCC guides so please if you have any good climbing shots of the Lakes get it touch. I actually thought that they were a pretty good lot - this isn't Rjukan you know, with perfect conditions, sunshine, and loads of hand ab points. Most of the pictures were taken by leader or second en route - and it's hard to see how it could be otherwise.

The first ascents list is as close to a historical section as you're ever likely to get for the Lakes - until Mike Cocker, Colin Wells and Brian Davison started to do some serious research into the archives very little was known about the history of winter climbing - but there is still more to be discovered no doubt. Davey S is just a bit miffed as he was beaten to the ascent of C Buttress by some 70 years! But he's not the only one who has discovered that their plum line was actually climbed by some chap in tweeds and nails long before they were born. C'est la vie!

 sutty 20 Dec 2006
 Exile 21 Dec 2006
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
It tells you where the routes are and what to expect, so it's a good guide.

I've climbed in the Lakes for 12 years and it's given me quite a few new ideas.

I think it's great.

(Are photoes really that important? I think the ones included give a good impression. If you don't like the history / first ascents section, don't read it.)
Robert Lyons 21 Dec 2006
In reply to Exile:

I've been looking forward to this being published for a while now, and I've just bought a copy. Great book, on all counts, and I'd just like to say immense thanks to the people that put all hard, boring work into it, it's greatly appreciated.

Cheers!
Anonymous 21 Dec 2006
In reply to Bob:
Dear Bob, my critcisms are minor and I would have hoped you would take this into consideration in your response.
I still think the winter guide is a great piece of work. The photos IMO are great!
I agree it can be a nightmare sorting out the history. The same is true for instance in Scotland. Some of the old timers, I personally know, would question the validity of their own ascents, terming them as cold rock climbs.

Things move on and this guide is a great platform for a sensible future development of the sport. (Conditions permitting)

In reply to Steve,
Dear Steve, you can rely on me to take a poke at the establishment, no offence intended.
Beaten by 70 years to a FWA? Does your shop sell any tweeds or nails? Also, I just need to get out of bed earlier. Great piece of work, thank you.

Davie Paraffin Sanderson
Removed User 21 Dec 2006
In reply to Anonymous:

Santa hasn't brought my copy yet, but I believe Oblique Chimney was an an example of an early 6 a hundred years ago, more recently re-claimed.
 Skyfall 21 Dec 2006
In reply to Stephen Reid:

I have seen a copy now and I think it looks great. A vast, vast improvement on the previous version. Whilst it is easy to say "hard not to be an improvement" and to criticise, it moves things on immensely. I also thought the photos were good. On my profile pics, there is a pic of what I think is the window on window gully, but I was never quite sure if it was the right "window".

Would like to say congrat's to the guidebook team and say that it has already inspired me to get out when conditions come right again (which they will, whatever people say).

Jon
 Simon Caldwell 21 Dec 2006
In reply to JonC:
> On my profile pics, there is a pic of what I think is the window on window gully, but I was never quite sure if it was the right "window".

Looks like it to me - here's my pic of the same thing:
http://climbing.me.uk/GreatEnd2/slides/IMG_9229.html
Removed User 21 Dec 2006
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Those are very nice pics in your album.
 Skyfall 21 Dec 2006
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

V nice shots. Thanks. Did I see one of your pics (Blea Gill?) in the new guide...?
ceri 21 Dec 2006
In reply to sutty: I know what you mean. we took lots of pictures in norway, and so many of them look really dark and blue, asthe light intensity was low and our basic point and click cameras couldnt compensate.
ceri 21 Dec 2006
In reply to JonC: it is a pic of SImon on the webpage with the review on, i think.
potted shrimp 21 Dec 2006
In reply to Bob: you are utterly right about the absence of a distinction between summer and winter ascents..even as late as 1949-50 it was normal to climb e.g. Bowfell Buttress under snow/ice conditions in nails (tricounis) and there was no particular point made about a "winter ascent".
I remember as a young lad being overawed to be doing BB with George Bower and being told at the crux by George that the thing to do in the prevailing blizzard was "fight the bugger".
potted shrimp 21 Dec 2006
In reply to Stephen Reid: it is indeed la vie Steve...well said..
 Simon Caldwell 21 Dec 2006
In reply to JonC:
> Did I see one of your pics (Blea Gill?) in the new guide...?

There's a Blea Gill one of me, and a Great End one by me
 Skyfall 21 Dec 2006
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Fame!

Well, if this guide is in publication for as long as the last one, you'll be a geriatric by the time it's replaced..

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