UKC

I had a look through past threads and didn't find much on this.

I have done all of my ice climbing (including about 50 pitches of it last winter in France, seconding up to WI5+. leading up to WI4+) using old version Rambo vertical dual front points. Neither of my feet has never popped, not once. (Neither have either of my axes). They feel heavy and imprecise but secure. All the ice has been fairly fat, well established and not very cold (so not that brittle) but not slushy.

I was thinking of getting G14s/Terminators/new Rambos to enable me to switch back to duals if I didn't like monos. Or getting a pair of Darts for lightness. But this is not actually question about specific makes.

Has there been any testing of vertical versus horizontal front points and monos versus duals?

As loads of you probably know, none other than Will Gadd backs horizontal over vertical front points and dual over mono for most ice climbing, but backs vertical monos for homogenous, smooth, slowly formed warmer ice.

I know skill is the most important thing and either will generally do, but it has been striking that Gadd has challenged the conventional wisdom of the superiority of vertical monos for medium-hard ice.

In reply to Eric Herring:

I've used my G14s in mono mode on water ice. They only really come into their own when the going gets steep, where the penetrate very easily.
On easier angled ground I found they were less stable than dual points.

Haven't tried them on mixed.

In reply to Glen:

Ta Glen, that's exactly the kind of feedback re WI I'm keen to hear. The mixed stuff is a totally diff kettle of wossits, natch.

So much for the much-vaunted secondary points as stabilisers...

In reply to Eric Herring:

I tried my Rambos with monos once on water ice (about grade 4), but didn't really get on with them - I found they made my foot placements feel less stable so I ended up over-gripping.

Maybe with a lot of practice the benefits are realised but I don't get to ice climb all that much so have stuck to dual points.

In reply to Glen:

Monos rock on Mixed.

In reply to Jamie B.:

I am totally sold on that, yup. Woss your view of monos and WI?

In reply to Eric Herring: use monos for everything i do pretty much, always felt secure and stable with secondary points contacting, mave climbed as hard in dual horizontals and just found sometimes a bit smashy on foot placements, whereas monos are pretty much one kick only
hth

In reply to Eric Herring:

I've used my Charlet M10's on water ice without any trouble (both as mono's and dual's). I think it has a lot to do with the frame of the crampon as well. There tends to be more weight in a modular vertical frontpoint crampon that in a "normal" mountaineering crampon - therefore there's less vibration and more "punch" when you kick in. I've now switched to Grivel Airtechs for most stuff and although they don't feel so reassuring, I've had no problems on ice or mixed.

In reply to gear boy:
>dual horizontals and just found sometimes a bit smashy on foot placements,

I find the same with dual verticals, hence the contemplation of monos.

In reply to task-o:

Interesting. How hard do you climb on WI using the Airtechs (half the weight of my Rambos!).

In reply to Eric Herring:

Normally WI 3 or 4 - have done WI 5 but not very often (this is more down to my lack of talent than the crampons!). They're also excellent for mixed climbing as the points are fairly stubby. Depending on which boots you have it might be worth getting assymetric bars for them as this will give you a more natural kicking action than older style straight edge crampons.

In reply to Eric Herring: I use monos for all my ice climbing, although early season when climbing new ice made up of lots of little columns (it smooths out later in the season after some freeze thaw etc) I often think about using duals because the mono can got between the icicle columns and look in but actually be not really gripping anything. I even took a pic to illustrate this last friday so I'll try and put it up on my blog soonish. The greater damage done by dual points makes a better foothold in those conditions. But for everything else monos seem better to me.

In reply to Eric Herring: I've put the picture I was talking about up on my blog now. Click on the link next to my name above. Hope it helps.

In reply to TobyA:

Thanks for that Toby, really clear illustration. Looks like you are of the same mind as Will Gadd on that point.

You could end up with dual front points either side of one of your little ice columns and not realise it. But still more secure than a mono.

I guess in the end there is a lot of personal preference involved and the most important thing is usually the climber not the gear...

In reply to TobyA:

Interestingly Toby, I've actually found monos useful in this situation before.
On fluted ice, when I've had restricted movement (i.e. awkward position with out much room to swing), I've been able to simply stand on small lumps in the recesses between flutings, removing the need to kick the frontpoints in.
I wouldn't have been able to do this with dual points.

In reply to Glen: I guess it's always swings and roundabouts - I've just found that sometimes you glance quickly down at your foot, think it's in the ice stand up to make the next tool placement and then have your foot pop!

Even on fluted ice like this you can often stand on the "damage" your tool placements have made. So I've sometime noticed that getting off the ground is where your feet pop most - i.e. the first two metres of an ice fall where there aren't any tool placements! We were doing the route pictured here: http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2007/01/weekend-round-up.html (second pic down) and I think all four of us had feet pop just on that first little free standing bit! A bit like a bouldery start to a rock route that you keep falling off. Simon in the pic has climbed 8a in the past so just kept cranking one armers on the leashless tools when he couldn't get his crampons (and those were tradition horizontal dual points) to stick! Most annoying to the pathetically weak like myself.

In reply to TobyA: Why don't you "Cut Steps" Old school stylee in the first 2 meters?

In reply to Alasdair Fulton: That crossed my mind - although my new leashless tools don't even have an adze!

In reply to TobyA:

Noticed a big difference in my Rambo monos comapired to terminator monos which have the wee secondary points which i find help with this alot.

In reply to TobyA: You know what you need to do.......Sit Start!

{Ducks, and runs away}

Seriously, you could chip some nooks in the ice with your picks.