This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
I am curious. Have seen a couple of photos posted of screw placements with water pouring out. I havn't led much ice, mostly mixed and ridges and where I have led on ice I have only placed a screw once and just used rock gear, bulldogs etc. Now, how good are these placements then if water is pouring thro? The placements are only as good as the ice surely. Are these placements more of 'pyschological value'?
In reply to lasonj: No, that would be a rubbish placement....much like one I placed recently on craig meagaidh. I think it's psychologicaly worse than not placing one!
In reply to lasonj: People wouldn't trust it as protection, they just think it makes a good photo. I would think.
In reply to lasonj:
it usually happens when you place a screw only to find you have punctured through several layers of ice to the running water behind.
This is usually preceeded and followed by extensive dinner plating, lumps of shitty ice falling to the ground and a promise to oneselfhaqt you are going to take up golf on your weekends instead.
it usually happens when you place a screw only to find you have punctured through several layers of ice to the running water behind.
This is usually preceeded and followed by extensive dinner plating, lumps of shitty ice falling to the ground and a promise to oneselfhaqt you are going to take up golf on your weekends instead.
In reply to lasonj:
I remember placing my first ever ice screw on Sour Milk Ghyll in the Lakes. I kept turning it and turning it, more and more strenuously, until I realised the whole bloody section of ice I was on was moving towards me (there was water pouring out of the screw like a tap). It had gone through the ice, through the waterfall, and I was trying to screw it into the rock underneath, with the result that it was pushing the ice away from the rock. I gulped and headed upwards ASAP.
I remember placing my first ever ice screw on Sour Milk Ghyll in the Lakes. I kept turning it and turning it, more and more strenuously, until I realised the whole bloody section of ice I was on was moving towards me (there was water pouring out of the screw like a tap). It had gone through the ice, through the waterfall, and I was trying to screw it into the rock underneath, with the result that it was pushing the ice away from the rock. I gulped and headed upwards ASAP.
In reply to Steve Parker: Lol! I led a pitch on ice last year and in some places where you (delicately) placed your axe the water would seep through and around the pick. That ice was too thin for screws and I was terrified and headed up ASAP too!
In reply to lasonj:
Water pouring out a placement is never a good sign!
That screw I placed in Rjukan was swiftly removed and replaced in solid ice (after I took the piccie). The route I was on was very wide and there were probably numerous water courses running under the ice in places- a lot of the Rjukan routes take active drainage even in good condition.
I would be more worried on a Scottish route as we climb water ice routes that have only been formed for a few days, in comparison to the long build up (and stronger formations) of the Norwegian stuff.
Sometimes a poor runner can make the psychological difference between getting up something and failure though.
Davie
Water pouring out a placement is never a good sign!
That screw I placed in Rjukan was swiftly removed and replaced in solid ice (after I took the piccie). The route I was on was very wide and there were probably numerous water courses running under the ice in places- a lot of the Rjukan routes take active drainage even in good condition.
I would be more worried on a Scottish route as we climb water ice routes that have only been formed for a few days, in comparison to the long build up (and stronger formations) of the Norwegian stuff.
Sometimes a poor runner can make the psychological difference between getting up something and failure though.
Davie
In reply to lasonj:
Actually, us lot down here sometimes have to accept things like water pouring out of ice screws to get anything done at all. No, it's not a great sign, but very often if you want to go ghyll climbing in the Lakes, there's going to be water running just under the ice.
Actually, us lot down here sometimes have to accept things like water pouring out of ice screws to get anything done at all. No, it's not a great sign, but very often if you want to go ghyll climbing in the Lakes, there's going to be water running just under the ice.
In reply to Steve Parker:
That is nothing, some people in Scotland do winter routes, when the water is running over the rock when there is no ice.
> (In reply to lasonj)
>
> Actually, us lot down here sometimes have to accept things like water pouring out of ice screws to get anything done at all. No, it's not a great sign, but very often if you want to go ghyll climbing in the Lakes, there's going to be water running just under the ice.
>
> Actually, us lot down here sometimes have to accept things like water pouring out of ice screws to get anything done at all. No, it's not a great sign, but very often if you want to go ghyll climbing in the Lakes, there's going to be water running just under the ice.
That is nothing, some people in Scotland do winter routes, when the water is running over the rock when there is no ice.
Yes, I understand the pyschological bit, much as you might place a marginal bit of gear when on the rock. And that's what I thought, that they'd make sh*te placements. Does placing screws get any easier with practise cos they seem like a complete and utter faff and I always get nervous leading if there's ice cos I'm crap at placing them. I hope so.
In reply to Norrie Muir:
Yeah, well some of us Scousers do winter routes when there's no rock, no ice, and no water, and we've got no ice axes. Last winter climb I did, I had to shove my mate into a crack in the air and use him as a step.
Yeah, well some of us Scousers do winter routes when there's no rock, no ice, and no water, and we've got no ice axes. Last winter climb I did, I had to shove my mate into a crack in the air and use him as a step.
In reply to lasonj:
they do get easier. First trick is to get comfy on your axe and feet, then place at hip level.
Experieince tells where to place, somewhere where you do not have to chip much in preparation.
The other trick is practice getting them to bite and using the palm of your hand to screw them in - i still find that can be quicker than using a handle on an turbo for example.
As the photo of Dean "my ice gear is on ebny and i used my salopettes as a latrine" Dorrel proves, ice screws do hold.
they do get easier. First trick is to get comfy on your axe and feet, then place at hip level.
Experieince tells where to place, somewhere where you do not have to chip much in preparation.
The other trick is practice getting them to bite and using the palm of your hand to screw them in - i still find that can be quicker than using a handle on an turbo for example.
As the photo of Dean "my ice gear is on ebny and i used my salopettes as a latrine" Dorrel proves, ice screws do hold.
In reply to lasonj: A screw with water coming out could be absolutely fine. If nothing else it means its not too cold when the ice becomes brittle and fractures. It all depends on how the screw feels. It really very hard to get a feel for this besides placing lots of ice screws and paying a lot of attention to the sound and feel and what you can see as you put it in.
Obviously if you are in Scotland in a gully and you have the choice of an obvious nut or a screw, place the nut. But on icefalls they are normally the only gear you can place.
My big tip is place them at about stomach-level, and not far out from your body otherwise you can push to start it. The steeper the ice, the more into your body the screw needs to be: http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=22919
Obviously if you are in Scotland in a gully and you have the choice of an obvious nut or a screw, place the nut. But on icefalls they are normally the only gear you can place.
My big tip is place them at about stomach-level, and not far out from your body otherwise you can push to start it. The steeper the ice, the more into your body the screw needs to be: http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=22919
In reply to lasonj: Best way I find to calm the mind when setting an ice screw. This is my recipe ...
Climb leashless if the route is not alpine and you can escape it relatively easily. Climb leashed but with quick release leashes if climbing a route where you really can't afford to drop an axe.
Plan the pitch and try and rack up to save your best screws (least blunt) for any desperate placements you can forsee (runout and vertical) where you will need to make the placement quickly. It's a big mental boost to know that the next screw you are going to place is brand new!
Be tactical about where and when you place screws, always place a good one just before the hard bit. But try not to run it out over the bulge in case it plates.
Definitely be on the lookout for good threads as you can save a ton of energy that way.
When the ice is good -
Set a good axe high on the non-screw setting hand, bend your kneees a bit to hang straightarmed on it. Prepare the placement using the axe in the hand you will use to set the screw, clearing the surface crap and any bumps of ice that will prevent the hanger turning and chipping a nice starter hole about 1" deep. Usual comments about getting the screw at hip level where you will be able to get the most weight on it.
This is the bit that has really helped my head this year - Now place the axe in the screw-setting hand solidly at shoulder level and slightly to the outside of the place you're going to set the screw. Clip a quick draw through the hole in the spike and clip to the rope. I equate this mentally with clipping the bolt on a sport route it really puts my head in a better place for the next bit ...
Set the screw using the palm of the hand and put as much weight as you possibly can on it. Don't be afraid to take your hand off the screw to get another turn on it. This is often the hardest bit for me, I'm trying to figure out an intelligent way to keep hold of the screw if it does fall out of the starter hole which isn't too much faff - does anyone have any systems they use?
Once the screw seems like it will continue to bite start turning it using the handle (assuming you've got Turbos or something like). If it feels as if it's stripping try torquing the screw a bit sideways in the hole sometimes it gets a bite that way and will continue driving. If it does strip go back to using the palm to drive it.
Carry a manivel to finish driving the screw when the ice is hard. If you have BDs (like me) it can save a lot of energy.
Once the screw is driven transfer the QD from the axe spike to the ice screw hanger. I use a QD setup with solid gates on the hanger end and wiregates on the rope end. Make sure the solid gate end is easy to place in and out of the spike hole in the axe otherwise you end up stressing about knocking your axe out when you unclip to transfer.
Place plenty of screws - the more you place the better you'll get at it!
When the ice is bad -
Do whatever you can from the above list!
Climb leashless if the route is not alpine and you can escape it relatively easily. Climb leashed but with quick release leashes if climbing a route where you really can't afford to drop an axe.
Plan the pitch and try and rack up to save your best screws (least blunt) for any desperate placements you can forsee (runout and vertical) where you will need to make the placement quickly. It's a big mental boost to know that the next screw you are going to place is brand new!
Be tactical about where and when you place screws, always place a good one just before the hard bit. But try not to run it out over the bulge in case it plates.
Definitely be on the lookout for good threads as you can save a ton of energy that way.
When the ice is good -
Set a good axe high on the non-screw setting hand, bend your kneees a bit to hang straightarmed on it. Prepare the placement using the axe in the hand you will use to set the screw, clearing the surface crap and any bumps of ice that will prevent the hanger turning and chipping a nice starter hole about 1" deep. Usual comments about getting the screw at hip level where you will be able to get the most weight on it.
This is the bit that has really helped my head this year - Now place the axe in the screw-setting hand solidly at shoulder level and slightly to the outside of the place you're going to set the screw. Clip a quick draw through the hole in the spike and clip to the rope. I equate this mentally with clipping the bolt on a sport route it really puts my head in a better place for the next bit ...
Set the screw using the palm of the hand and put as much weight as you possibly can on it. Don't be afraid to take your hand off the screw to get another turn on it. This is often the hardest bit for me, I'm trying to figure out an intelligent way to keep hold of the screw if it does fall out of the starter hole which isn't too much faff - does anyone have any systems they use?
Once the screw seems like it will continue to bite start turning it using the handle (assuming you've got Turbos or something like). If it feels as if it's stripping try torquing the screw a bit sideways in the hole sometimes it gets a bite that way and will continue driving. If it does strip go back to using the palm to drive it.
Carry a manivel to finish driving the screw when the ice is hard. If you have BDs (like me) it can save a lot of energy.
Once the screw is driven transfer the QD from the axe spike to the ice screw hanger. I use a QD setup with solid gates on the hanger end and wiregates on the rope end. Make sure the solid gate end is easy to place in and out of the spike hole in the axe otherwise you end up stressing about knocking your axe out when you unclip to transfer.
Place plenty of screws - the more you place the better you'll get at it!
When the ice is bad -
Do whatever you can from the above list!
In reply to Robbie H: What exactly is a manivel and are you not better to have the weight on your feet rather than hanging from axe??? Think it's more the getting the screw to bite that I find difficult, once it's in the rest is easy enough.
In reply to Robbie H:
I find the clipping into one axe while you place the screw a waste of time - I'd rather have the screw placed a couple of seconds quicker & know I'm secure. But I might use it in extremis.
I find the clipping into one axe while you place the screw a waste of time - I'd rather have the screw placed a couple of seconds quicker & know I'm secure. But I might use it in extremis.
In reply to lasonj:
Aye, what is a manivel?
Maybe that's what I've been missing, whtever it is.
Chip a good start hole with one pick and screws go in 100% better.
Davie
Aye, what is a manivel?
Maybe that's what I've been missing, whtever it is.
Chip a good start hole with one pick and screws go in 100% better.
Davie
In reply to KeithW:
I also find it a waste of time. I'm one of those old fashioned climbers who uses a wrist loop (i.e. a leash - and they're not clipper jobbies) - I make sure my solid axe is in that well that I ain't going anywhere. I experimented the other week - leashless saved me 3 seconds max. placing a screw.
Ta, Mick
I also find it a waste of time. I'm one of those old fashioned climbers who uses a wrist loop (i.e. a leash - and they're not clipper jobbies) - I make sure my solid axe is in that well that I ain't going anywhere. I experimented the other week - leashless saved me 3 seconds max. placing a screw.
Ta, Mick
In reply to lasonj: Sonja, see that ice AXE? use it to cut yourself a step..then faff with the screws, stops the Elvis leg, ken?
In reply to dek: Hey I never thought to do that (mind you the grades I'm climbing, there will be big steps about all over the place anyway, hehe)
In reply to dek:
PS - took a dander up to Dubh Loch at the wkend and there was a fair ish bit of ice in the Hanging Garden area (tho I could see chunks falling down as I looked up!) I mind you going on about that route, it looks amazing!
PS - took a dander up to Dubh Loch at the wkend and there was a fair ish bit of ice in the Hanging Garden area (tho I could see chunks falling down as I looked up!) I mind you going on about that route, it looks amazing!
In reply to lasonj:
I dont remember that!
Must have been pissed then, or getting senile? Hang on i dont drink!
> (In reply to dek)
>
I mind you going on about that route, it looks amazing!
>
I dont remember that!
Must have been pissed then, or getting senile? Hang on i dont drink!
In reply to dek: I can't remember what we were discussing but you recommended that route to me and I remember saying to you, 'you trying to get me killed!'
In reply to KeithW: What Robbie H describes is mostly relevant for steep/overhanging ice. If it is not steep, of course you will be resting on your feet and you wont feel the need to clip in your ice axe. BTW, even putting the rope over the axe helps.
In reply to lasonj:
A manivel (actually I just looked it up and it's spelt "manivelle") is something like a "Charlet Moser turbine"
Needlesports sell them with their ice protection. But I only use them when the ice is hard and they don't help with getting the screw started, only finishing off driving it. But they can save a fair bit of energy at that.
Regarding having weight on feet. Yes, as much as possible.
The clipped axe isn't hung on it's just an extra point of protection while you place the screw as you will be pulling out a bit on the axe you have placed high (to pull on when you get the pressure on the screw), this is often the part of the process that feels sketchy.
Re. hanging on the high axe. This all presumes that the climb is steep enough that in order to place the screw you _have_ to use your axe to hold yourself into the ice. In other words if you try to stand on the ice with no axe you will peel backwards. It's nice to keep a certain amount of weight on the axe as it creates tension through the body which is what allows you to place pressure on the screw (think body=bowstring screw=arrow). Plus a steady weight on the axe minimises the chances of it popping unexpectedly.
Getting the screw to bite ... Chip a good starter hole and torque it a bit when it first starts.
A manivel (actually I just looked it up and it's spelt "manivelle") is something like a "Charlet Moser turbine"
Needlesports sell them with their ice protection. But I only use them when the ice is hard and they don't help with getting the screw started, only finishing off driving it. But they can save a fair bit of energy at that.
Regarding having weight on feet. Yes, as much as possible.
The clipped axe isn't hung on it's just an extra point of protection while you place the screw as you will be pulling out a bit on the axe you have placed high (to pull on when you get the pressure on the screw), this is often the part of the process that feels sketchy.
Re. hanging on the high axe. This all presumes that the climb is steep enough that in order to place the screw you _have_ to use your axe to hold yourself into the ice. In other words if you try to stand on the ice with no axe you will peel backwards. It's nice to keep a certain amount of weight on the axe as it creates tension through the body which is what allows you to place pressure on the screw (think body=bowstring screw=arrow). Plus a steady weight on the axe minimises the chances of it popping unexpectedly.
Getting the screw to bite ... Chip a good starter hole and torque it a bit when it first starts.
In reply to KeithW: I agree it's a second or so of extra faff. Whether the technique works for you probably depends on whether you have confidence in the axe holding a fall or not ie. the quality of the placement and (perhaps) the attentiveness of your belayer.
If the axe blows when you fall on it you have a sharp, pointy object rattling around your groin while you fall past your last screw. Probably not a confidence builder.
I like it cause I took a winger last year and am still feeling a little cautious. So the feeling of being on "top rope" while messing about with icescrews etc. helps me.
I am always in extremis when I climb ice
If the axe blows when you fall on it you have a sharp, pointy object rattling around your groin while you fall past your last screw. Probably not a confidence builder.
I like it cause I took a winger last year and am still feeling a little cautious. So the feeling of being on "top rope" while messing about with icescrews etc. helps me.
I am always in extremis when I climb ice
In reply to Robbie H:
Where is your school French gone??? I teach to my kids what a manivelle is from 12 to 18 years old just in case they find themselves climbing ice routes (very likely in a poor suburb of glasgow).
A manivelle literally means a turning handle.
cheers for now
erick
Where is your school French gone??? I teach to my kids what a manivelle is from 12 to 18 years old just in case they find themselves climbing ice routes (very likely in a poor suburb of glasgow).
A manivelle literally means a turning handle.
cheers for now
erick
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Elsewhere on the site
Winter Conditions
This Winter Conditions page gives a summary of what is being climbed at the moment, what is 'in' nick and what the prospects are...
Loading Notifications...