/ NEW ARTICLE: FAQ - Ropes

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Stefan Kruger has kindly allowed us to use his old FAQ list originally created for uk.rec.climbing - http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~stefan/FGA.html

I have split the FAQs into different categories and updated them a bit. The first one is about ropes.

Read the FAQ here - http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=376

If you have any comments then add them to this thread. If you have any more questions then also add them to this thread but with the condition that you supply an answer as well!

Alan
tlm - on 30 Mar 2007
In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Something is a bit odd here:

"Double rope climbing tends to be used on traditonal routes. Certain routes requireThe main advantage of a double rope set-up is that it can reduce rope-drag, if used competently."

Other advantages of double ropes include not having to pull a load of slack out of the rope that is clipped into your last piece of gear, in order to clip the next piece of gear, and also, being easily able to bring up two seconds.

Advantage of a single rope is that it is usually lighter than two half ropes to carry.
Jem - on 02 Apr 2007
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
Something further:
As I understand it, your definition of twin ropes would not appear to be entirely accurate and requires clarification. Strictly speaking, a twin rope system is not simply an alternative use of 1/2 ropes, as suggested. Climbing ropes are produced in 3 categories, single, half and twin (all differently annotated on the rope end markings). In the UK, we commonly only see single and 1/2 ropes in the shops. Twin ropes are more commonly seen on the continent.

A twin rope is used as described (ie both strands clipped into the runners). However, this differs from the use of 1/2 ropes in that the 2 strands should never be separated. Effectively it is always used as you would a single rope, except when abseiling, when you abseil on both strands, allowing you to abseil double the distance allowed by a single rope. Used correctly, this system should not lead to increased impact force, as the twin rope is designed for such use. However, if 2 1/2 ropes are used to emulate such a system, you can expect an increased impact force on your runners. As with any rope system used, the impact force on your crucial last runner can be minimised with use of extended runners further down to reduce drag.

The Beal website illustrates the differences here:
http://www.bealplanet.com/portail-2006/index.php?page=type_corde&lang=us

In reply to Jem:

Thanks, I have amended the article slightly.

The other aspect of twin ropes that still does compromise the safety is that two ropes load karabiners badly hence they tend to be more likely to fail in a 'krab gate open' situation.

For normal rock climbing I can't see any situation where I would recommend some uses a twin rope.

Alan
TobyT - on 02 Apr 2007
In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Marking the middle of a rope using any form of pen is, according to this article, not recommended
http://www.alpineclubofcanada.ca/services/safety/Marking%20of%20Ropes.doc

And while we are at it can we have a relevant search link included at the bottom of the FAQ, so people can look for more information themselves. eg. for marking the middle of a rope :- http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=middle+rope+mark&hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&start=10...
In reply to TobyT:
> Marking the middle of a rope using any form of pen is, according to this article, not recommended
> http://www.alpineclubofcanada.ca/services/safety/Marking%20of%20Ropes.doc

Well if Beal stop producing their pen then perhaps we need to get a bit worried. I suspect they will be on the ball on this one.

> And while we are at it can we have a relevant search link included at the bottom of the FAQ, so people can look for more information themselves. eg. for marking the middle of a rope :- http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=middle+rope+mark&hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&start=10...

Sorry, but I don't really like doing that. I think people themselves are aware enough to search Google and we probably also have our own different ways of using Google. Your link brings up loads on non-relevant links as well.

Alan
TobyT - on 02 Apr 2007
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
>Well if Beal stop producing their pen then perhaps we need to get a bit worried. I suspect they will be on the ball on this one.
I agree in a way, Beal wouldn't want to produce an item that significantly caused problems, however there is evidence out there that, in the past, Beal rope marking pen caused strength loss in certain situations in certain ropes. The UIAA advice is that you should only use products recommended by the rope manufacturer (http://www.uiaa.ch/article.aspx?c=185&a=78). Therefore Beal can probably say that it's safe to use on their ropes, but not on other manufacturers ropes.

>I think people themselves are aware enough to search Google and we probably also have our own different ways of using Google.
Are you sure people are aware enough to use Google? They seem to have problems using the UKC search function, which is one of the reasons the FAQs are being requested. I agree that people have their own way of using Google, and my searching methodology is not optimum.

There is a lot of contradictory and outdated information around on ropes and other things. Most experienced climbers (particularly the gear freaks) are probably clued up on this and are happy to investigate further; the beginner climber, ie the people most likely to read the FAQs, however, may not be aware of these discussions and suitable reference points, and should be reminded to look around occasionally and assess the merits of various sources. Perhaps linked Searches are not th best way of doing this but there should be a suitable reminder within each article to check the primary sources for the latest data. With it's wide user base UKC is a good source of info, but it' not a training, standards, testing, or manufacturing organisation so can't really profess to be the authority on equipment care or other climbing practice. Care needs to be taken that the FAQs aren't seen by beginners as the arbiters of all that is right (as we have seen with some people on this forum and Andy Kirkpatrick's generally excellent articles).

I apologise, this has become a bit of a rambling rant over what should be a simple statement about telling users climbing is dangerous and they shouldn't trust everything they see on the internet.
lithos on 03 Apr 2007
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
> (In reply to Jem)
>
> Thanks, I have amended the article slightly.
>


Alan, i dont think that section reads well and clearly at all. There is a
confusion/conflation(?) of rope type
and technique,

as noted in these comments there are 3 types of rope (single, half, twin)
maybe each should be given their own paragraph (as opposed to single/double/twin).

As it states double roping is a technique not a type of rope (verb/noun).
I think Double rope should be a sub-section of the half rope paragraph.

Just trying to help clear up what is still muddied waters

Cheers
HLR on 06 Apr 2007 - ctv-86-100-228-239.ip.rygveda.lt
In reply to Alan James - UKC:

could someone explain WHAT hapens to rope after 2 fallfactor fall?
mike kann - on 06 Apr 2007
In reply to HLR: You don't use it again and it goes off to the great rope bucket in the sky where lots of other ropes go when they die...
IainWhitehouse - on 06 Apr 2007
In reply to HLR:
> (In reply to Alan James - UKC)
>
> could someone explain WHAT hapens to rope after 2 fallfactor fall?

Well, it's hard to say precisely but in a fall that fierce a lot of energy will be dissipated as heat (as the rope fibres move past each other in stretching) which could have a detrimental effect on the nylon.
That doesn't mean it will suddenly snap next time it's used (Ropes must withstand a minimum of 5 falls at factor 1.77 to pass CE certs) but the safety margin is certainly gong to be much reduced.
Iain
Tris - on 10 Apr 2007
In reply to Alan James - UKC: I can't click on the link on how to wash ropes - it asks for a username and password?
Michael Ryan - on 10 Apr 2007
In reply to Tris:
> (In reply to Alan James - UKC) I can't click on the link on how to wash ropes - it asks for a username and password?

Should be fixed now....refresh your browser. Thanks for pointing that out.

Mick

Tris - on 10 Apr 2007
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: it does indeed, thanks Mick...
violentViolet - on 12 Apr 2007
In reply to Alan James - UKC:

I might be a bit pedant here, but shouldn't the photo of the broken rope be credited to the user who took it?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=30235
ads.ukclimbing.com
Michael Ryan - on 12 Apr 2007
In reply to violentViolet:
> (In reply to Alan James - UKC)
>
> I might be a bit pedant here, but shouldn't the photo of the broken rope be credited to the user who took it?
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=30235

Sorted. Thanks VV.


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