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I could have tacked this onto the waxing lyrical slate thread, but thought I'd start a new one.
On Saturday, I led three newly bolted routes in Australia in the Llanberis quarries. Based on this page http://slate.wetpaint.com/page/Australia and a note in Climber, I think one was U.B.L. F4/HS 4b, one was Sad Man Who’s Sane VS 4c, and I'm positive the last was The Deceptive DykeHVS/5+. Today I led Mentil Lentils HVS 5b (no French grade).
All four of these These had 2-3 bolts each, but I placed trad gear too. Thing is though, they felt easy at their grades due to the bolts (I lead around 6a sport, although haven't climbed any sport for a year).
Normally, slate routes have the odd bolt in due to the sparse pro. However, all four of these had lower offs like sport routes, so I'm not really sure which I think of them as, sport or trad.
So was just wondering what other people's thoughts are? Trad because of the supplementary trad gear, or sport because of the lower offs and additional safety? I just feel a bit strange thinking of DD and ML as HVS's, because I've only successfully onsighted one (soft touch on grit) HVS before, but I've led a handful of sport 6a's...
On Saturday, I led three newly bolted routes in Australia in the Llanberis quarries. Based on this page http://slate.wetpaint.com/page/Australia and a note in Climber, I think one was U.B.L. F4/HS 4b, one was Sad Man Who’s Sane VS 4c, and I'm positive the last was The Deceptive DykeHVS/5+. Today I led Mentil Lentils HVS 5b (no French grade).
All four of these These had 2-3 bolts each, but I placed trad gear too. Thing is though, they felt easy at their grades due to the bolts (I lead around 6a sport, although haven't climbed any sport for a year).
Normally, slate routes have the odd bolt in due to the sparse pro. However, all four of these had lower offs like sport routes, so I'm not really sure which I think of them as, sport or trad.
So was just wondering what other people's thoughts are? Trad because of the supplementary trad gear, or sport because of the lower offs and additional safety? I just feel a bit strange thinking of DD and ML as HVS's, because I've only successfully onsighted one (soft touch on grit) HVS before, but I've led a handful of sport 6a's...
In reply to cider nut:
How long were the routes?
2-3 bolts in an 8 metre route = sport with bonus trad gear, 2-3 bolts in a 20 metre route = trad with bonus bolts. I would tend to regard them as whatever they felt most like (it sounds like these felt more like sport routes).
Not having climbed on slate though I'm not really the best qualified person to opine on this...
How long were the routes?
2-3 bolts in an 8 metre route = sport with bonus trad gear, 2-3 bolts in a 20 metre route = trad with bonus bolts. I would tend to regard them as whatever they felt most like (it sounds like these felt more like sport routes).
Not having climbed on slate though I'm not really the best qualified person to opine on this...
In reply to victim of mathematics: I think you make a good point. most slate routes I have done thar have bolts are DEFINITELY NOT sport routes, generally the bolts are just meant to prevent death, not sanitize the experience.
In reply to cider nut:
They just sound like slate routes, sometimes sport, sometimes trad and often a little bit of both depending upon the mood you're in. The slate can feel a little soft gradewise... until you fall!
jk
They just sound like slate routes, sometimes sport, sometimes trad and often a little bit of both depending upon the mood you're in. The slate can feel a little soft gradewise... until you fall!
jk
In reply to victim of mathematics:
The 3 in Australia felt more like sport with bonus trad gear, but Mentil Lentils felt a little more like trad, but not much - maybe because the moves were much thinnner. It just feels a bit strange though, knowing I've done two HVS's this weekend, and only 1 previously, but they didn't really feel like HVS's.
Just thought I'd see if other people have wondered this in the past. Or even presently - since some routes seem to get getting lower offs when they didn't before. I was chatting to a couple of guys about this we met in Australia. I was saying it seems wrong to change the route from the way it was originally climbed. One of them had done the FA of ones of the routes there, and he said that the only reason they didn't place more bolts was that they didn't have them, otherwise they would have! Never thought of it that way.
The 3 in Australia felt more like sport with bonus trad gear, but Mentil Lentils felt a little more like trad, but not much - maybe because the moves were much thinnner. It just feels a bit strange though, knowing I've done two HVS's this weekend, and only 1 previously, but they didn't really feel like HVS's.
Just thought I'd see if other people have wondered this in the past. Or even presently - since some routes seem to get getting lower offs when they didn't before. I was chatting to a couple of guys about this we met in Australia. I was saying it seems wrong to change the route from the way it was originally climbed. One of them had done the FA of ones of the routes there, and he said that the only reason they didn't place more bolts was that they didn't have them, otherwise they would have! Never thought of it that way.
In reply to cider nut:
the slate ethos has been for very sparse bolts so that even a route with bolts is definately not a sports route which is good cos though the climbing is brilliant lots of these routes would be very boring as a line of bolts. Where there is natural pro there doesn't need to be bolts.
It seems to be becoming evident that the retro bolters are going a bit mental in places and have forgotten that the minimal bolting is part of the slate ethos.
As an example yesterday I climbed a retro bolted E3 5c which would have been super scary as a trad route but it had been retro bolted with a shiney petzl hanger every 6 foot (even when natural protection was available!!), it was quite boring for it. Halving the number of bolts would have given a great fun E1 rather than the trundle up a sooon to be super pollished slab. All rather disappointing really.
The worry its that in the next round of retro bolting in 10 years time everything will become a sports route. arguments that this sort of thing makes the place more accesible seem rather thin to be honest since theres loads of bolted sports routes in wales already - the slate experience doesn't need diluting to make more...
the slate ethos has been for very sparse bolts so that even a route with bolts is definately not a sports route which is good cos though the climbing is brilliant lots of these routes would be very boring as a line of bolts. Where there is natural pro there doesn't need to be bolts.
It seems to be becoming evident that the retro bolters are going a bit mental in places and have forgotten that the minimal bolting is part of the slate ethos.
As an example yesterday I climbed a retro bolted E3 5c which would have been super scary as a trad route but it had been retro bolted with a shiney petzl hanger every 6 foot (even when natural protection was available!!), it was quite boring for it. Halving the number of bolts would have given a great fun E1 rather than the trundle up a sooon to be super pollished slab. All rather disappointing really.
The worry its that in the next round of retro bolting in 10 years time everything will become a sports route. arguments that this sort of thing makes the place more accesible seem rather thin to be honest since theres loads of bolted sports routes in wales already - the slate experience doesn't need diluting to make more...
In reply to cider nut:
Why does it matter what it's labelled as? Slate is meant to be scary and if bolted, at best just life preserving. As for retro bolting, well....... Ok to replace a rotting one but other wise NO WAY.
Why does it matter what it's labelled as? Slate is meant to be scary and if bolted, at best just life preserving. As for retro bolting, well....... Ok to replace a rotting one but other wise NO WAY.
In reply to cider nut:
You think too much! Take the two HVS ticks! :P
And while you're at it, next time you're down at Swanage go and do Quality Street - awesome HVS and a bit of a soft touch, all good holds and they keep on coming!
You think too much! Take the two HVS ticks! :P
And while you're at it, next time you're down at Swanage go and do Quality Street - awesome HVS and a bit of a soft touch, all good holds and they keep on coming!
In reply to cider nut:
Perhaps the routes only go at HVS if you climb them WITHOUT any supplemetary gear??? i think the question is are they graded for just using the bolts as pro. If so, placing additional gear will lower the adjectival grade...say to VS or HS...although the tech grade stays the same.
Perhaps the routes only go at HVS if you climb them WITHOUT any supplemetary gear??? i think the question is are they graded for just using the bolts as pro. If so, placing additional gear will lower the adjectival grade...say to VS or HS...although the tech grade stays the same.
In reply to cider nut:
to be honest i wasn't interested in doing them....eg the E3 left of Bela Lugosi as they seem a bit contrived....and this is from someone who started climbing in Oz where mixed routes are the norm.
to be honest i wasn't interested in doing them....eg the E3 left of Bela Lugosi as they seem a bit contrived....and this is from someone who started climbing in Oz where mixed routes are the norm.
In reply to cider nut:
Having climbed sad man who's sane, UBL and mental lentals. I would deffinatly call them trad routes as there is more gear that can be placed. Especially with the first two if you were to fall clipping hte second bolt you would not be very far from the floor (on it).
Having climbed sad man who's sane, UBL and mental lentals. I would deffinatly call them trad routes as there is more gear that can be placed. Especially with the first two if you were to fall clipping hte second bolt you would not be very far from the floor (on it).
In reply to 1234None:
That would have been a daft method of grading though based on missing gear out. Grade shpuld be based on all available gear fixed or not. That's not to say that'swhat happend.
That would have been a daft method of grading though based on missing gear out. Grade shpuld be based on all available gear fixed or not. That's not to say that'swhat happend.
In reply to mattsccm:
Because I like talking about climbing.
> Why does it matter what it's labelled as?
Because I like talking about climbing.
In reply to saillord:
Since you've climbed them, can you confirm the routes for me? The wiki site doesn't say which is which. Is SMWS the first bolted route right of Gadaffi's duck (on the left side of the slab, right of the arete), and UBL the next one along (on the right side of the slab, left of the next arete)?
Cheers for your comments too.
Since you've climbed them, can you confirm the routes for me? The wiki site doesn't say which is which. Is SMWS the first bolted route right of Gadaffi's duck (on the left side of the slab, right of the arete), and UBL the next one along (on the right side of the slab, left of the next arete)?
Cheers for your comments too.
In reply to cider nut: The folk doing the re-gearing in the quarries seem to be going totally overboard, trying to create a wonderful sport climbing crag where there was never meant to be one. Whilst I (reluctantly) admit that subtle replacement (or even addition) of some of the old bolts and pegs, on a like-for-like basis where gear is starting to look dodgy does seem sensible I don't see why you have to have retro-ing of so many routes.
It does seem to be successful in bringing new climbers into the quarries by providing plenty of tame sports routes but what about the climbers who already enjoyed using the quarries and climbing slate for what it is - an exciting rock type with it's own quirky style? If people want sports routes then there are plenty of crags about to cater for that, why not keep the slate special? If the robolters want to encourage some more traffic by adding bolts to things why not do it in a way that is more typical of slate, instead of bolting bold E3's to F5's why not just put in one or two bolts and make a really good E1 or E2. The recently retro'd route I did at the weekend was utterly soul-less and more akin to climbing at the wall than in the quarries.
It does seem to be successful in bringing new climbers into the quarries by providing plenty of tame sports routes but what about the climbers who already enjoyed using the quarries and climbing slate for what it is - an exciting rock type with it's own quirky style? If people want sports routes then there are plenty of crags about to cater for that, why not keep the slate special? If the robolters want to encourage some more traffic by adding bolts to things why not do it in a way that is more typical of slate, instead of bolting bold E3's to F5's why not just put in one or two bolts and make a really good E1 or E2. The recently retro'd route I did at the weekend was utterly soul-less and more akin to climbing at the wall than in the quarries.
In reply to cider nut:
Is that ONLY the bolts? My question really was are they graded for:
Use of bolts ONLY
or
Use of bolts + trad gear (i.e. mixed routes as found commonly in Oz and NZ)
or
Use of trad gear only
You can only "claim" the grade given if the route was climbed in the style intended. Not that I've ever understood the obession with numbers and ticking etc, but I believe that's the case...
Is that ONLY the bolts? My question really was are they graded for:
Use of bolts ONLY
or
Use of bolts + trad gear (i.e. mixed routes as found commonly in Oz and NZ)
or
Use of trad gear only
You can only "claim" the grade given if the route was climbed in the style intended. Not that I've ever understood the obession with numbers and ticking etc, but I believe that's the case...
In reply to Aly:
I mostly share your views. Although as I say, it was interesting talking to a couple of guys in the quarries who put a route up in the early 90's, who are 'for' added bolts and lower offs. They thought it was a good idea to popularise certain routes. Me, personally, I think replacing bolts is a great idea, but not adding lower offs (otherwise I wouldn't have been confused enough about whether they're meant to have a trad/sport feel to post this thread!).
I mostly share your views. Although as I say, it was interesting talking to a couple of guys in the quarries who put a route up in the early 90's, who are 'for' added bolts and lower offs. They thought it was a good idea to popularise certain routes. Me, personally, I think replacing bolts is a great idea, but not adding lower offs (otherwise I wouldn't have been confused enough about whether they're meant to have a trad/sport feel to post this thread!).
In reply to cider nut:
Surely the loweroffs are the lesser of the two evils? You can still sit at the top if you like, they won't have chopped the natural belays
Inappropriate bolts (even unclipped but there/within-reach as a getout clause if needed) ruin routes.
Some of the routes were daft as they were E3s that are E3 if you don't fall ie one or two hard moves then a huge easier but lethal runout are daft but so is retroing it into a cruxy sport route, surely it should be possible to maintain the spicey feel without destroying the route's character.
I've not been since the re-bolting happened, hopefully I'll be pleasently surprised when I do go back (fingers crossed for the weekend).
jk
Surely the loweroffs are the lesser of the two evils? You can still sit at the top if you like, they won't have chopped the natural belays
Inappropriate bolts (even unclipped but there/within-reach as a getout clause if needed) ruin routes.
Some of the routes were daft as they were E3s that are E3 if you don't fall ie one or two hard moves then a huge easier but lethal runout are daft but so is retroing it into a cruxy sport route, surely it should be possible to maintain the spicey feel without destroying the route's character.
I've not been since the re-bolting happened, hopefully I'll be pleasently surprised when I do go back (fingers crossed for the weekend).
jk
The thing is that they didn't fully bolt the routes back in the 80's for whatever reasons. I'm not sure that the fact that they were the FA's gives them the right to say what should and shouldn't now be retro'd seeing as many other people have done the routes and enjoyed them in the style they were created in. (not that I'm saying they are but I'm just not sure it's a valid argument)
Out of interest, how many of the "old, death-on-a-stick" bolts had actually failed in the last year or so? Just wondering...
Cider Nut - I think I was the one that got some photos of you on Bella Lugosi on sunday.
Out of interest, how many of the "old, death-on-a-stick" bolts had actually failed in the last year or so? Just wondering...
Cider Nut - I think I was the one that got some photos of you on Bella Lugosi on sunday.
In reply to cider nut:
Just my thoughts on this topic(i don't post much but living 5 mins from bustop quarry couldn't resist this one).
a. the people retro/replacing bolts are doing it in their own spare time, when i KNOW they'd rather be out climbing.
b. Extra bolts are only added with the express permission of the FA, and only to safeguard some pretty horrendous run-outs and only after much debate amongst the men/women with the hilti.
c. Personally i don't feel as if it spoils the 'thrill' of slate climbing, those holds are still pretty thin most of the time with or without the odd extra bolt.
d. i'd personally like to add my thanks to the number of locals that i know who have been in the quarries safeguarding mine (and your) ascents with the new bolts.
So perhaps my point is really that maybe, just maybe we should be thanking the likes of Mr Reeves, Mr Dickens and the rest for helping us to enjoy some classic slate routes than generally moaning about an extra few bolts and some equally useful lower-offs here and there.
Matt
Just my thoughts on this topic(i don't post much but living 5 mins from bustop quarry couldn't resist this one).
a. the people retro/replacing bolts are doing it in their own spare time, when i KNOW they'd rather be out climbing.
b. Extra bolts are only added with the express permission of the FA, and only to safeguard some pretty horrendous run-outs and only after much debate amongst the men/women with the hilti.
c. Personally i don't feel as if it spoils the 'thrill' of slate climbing, those holds are still pretty thin most of the time with or without the odd extra bolt.
d. i'd personally like to add my thanks to the number of locals that i know who have been in the quarries safeguarding mine (and your) ascents with the new bolts.
So perhaps my point is really that maybe, just maybe we should be thanking the likes of Mr Reeves, Mr Dickens and the rest for helping us to enjoy some classic slate routes than generally moaning about an extra few bolts and some equally useful lower-offs here and there.
Matt
In reply to PWEI_fan:
I didn't know they were doing this, but WTF are they doing, frankly?? I haven't heard a big movement in the climbing world for slate routes to have more bolts on. What on earth's stopping them just replacing the bolts that are there?
The most irritating thing about bolters is their habit of playing God all the time. You turn your back and some f*cker's decided this climb or that would be better with more bolts. What's the matter with these bastards? If they'd rather be out climbing, that's fine with me. Why don't they bl**dy well go out climbing??
In reply to the OP: for some reason most slate routes are overgraded.
jcm
I didn't know they were doing this, but WTF are they doing, frankly?? I haven't heard a big movement in the climbing world for slate routes to have more bolts on. What on earth's stopping them just replacing the bolts that are there?
The most irritating thing about bolters is their habit of playing God all the time. You turn your back and some f*cker's decided this climb or that would be better with more bolts. What's the matter with these bastards? If they'd rather be out climbing, that's fine with me. Why don't they bl**dy well go out climbing??
In reply to the OP: for some reason most slate routes are overgraded.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: 99% of the routes being rebolted are done bolt for bolt read climb mag for a more indepth view on the matter.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Having bolted quite a lot of nw routes and been involved in a lot of development over the years here in NZ many of the old hands are going back and fixing up their earlier routes.
Attitudes and equipment have changes a lot - many of our older routes for example when bolted were UK sport as in "sporting" partially because of ego and partly because that was the ethos at that time. Also because bolts were hand drilled we put in less than if we had a Battery drill. People also realised that sometimes we put our first bolts so high (to minimise the number needed) that we were causing unnecessary groundfalls.
I used to be totally against some of the things I now see as acceptable or needed. I have put extra bolts in some of my climbs so people don't deck, because the route (which was good) wasn't getting enough traffic because it had 1 hard to place average RP that I knew about from cleaning etc...
Anyway times and attitudes change and certainly small things like putting a bolt by the one pro placement on routes at a predominantly sport crag to make a limited resource more accessible to more people is not always a bad thing.
<ducks for cover>
Having bolted quite a lot of nw routes and been involved in a lot of development over the years here in NZ many of the old hands are going back and fixing up their earlier routes.
Attitudes and equipment have changes a lot - many of our older routes for example when bolted were UK sport as in "sporting" partially because of ego and partly because that was the ethos at that time. Also because bolts were hand drilled we put in less than if we had a Battery drill. People also realised that sometimes we put our first bolts so high (to minimise the number needed) that we were causing unnecessary groundfalls.
I used to be totally against some of the things I now see as acceptable or needed. I have put extra bolts in some of my climbs so people don't deck, because the route (which was good) wasn't getting enough traffic because it had 1 hard to place average RP that I knew about from cleaning etc...
Anyway times and attitudes change and certainly small things like putting a bolt by the one pro placement on routes at a predominantly sport crag to make a limited resource more accessible to more people is not always a bad thing.
<ducks for cover>
In reply to Aly:
I think the FA's are asked before their routes are altered in terms of bolts.
Ah, thanks for that. Shame I didn't complete it, but I got further than I thought I would, and was chuffed with what I managed. Was it one of you guys leading it before me? I refused to watch, but apparently whoever it was backed off at the same spot.
> The thing is that they didn't fully bolt the routes back in the 80's for whatever reasons. I'm not sure that the fact that they were the FA's gives them the right to say what should and shouldn't now be retro'd seeing as many other people have done the routes and enjoyed them in the style they were created in. (not that I'm saying they are but I'm just not sure it's a valid argument)
I think the FA's are asked before their routes are altered in terms of bolts.
> Cider Nut - I think I was the one that got some photos of you on Bella Lugosi on sunday.
Ah, thanks for that. Shame I didn't complete it, but I got further than I thought I would, and was chuffed with what I managed. Was it one of you guys leading it before me? I refused to watch, but apparently whoever it was backed off at the same spot.
In reply to PWEI_fan:
I'm not complaining about what they're doing, just giving my thoughts. (I donated money to the bolt fund anyway!) That was a side point anyway though - the OP was more about whether people feel slate routes in Llanberis are more sports or more trad, rather than the morals and ethics behind the rebolting scheme.
I'm not complaining about what they're doing, just giving my thoughts. (I donated money to the bolt fund anyway!) That was a side point anyway though - the OP was more about whether people feel slate routes in Llanberis are more sports or more trad, rather than the morals and ethics behind the rebolting scheme.
In reply to nz Cragrat:
Slate's slate. Designer boldness has always been the ethos there. The last thing it needs is to be Portlandised.
jcm
Slate's slate. Designer boldness has always been the ethos there. The last thing it needs is to be Portlandised.
jcm
In reply to cider nut:
Yeah, but they're connected. If they're sport routes, then a few new bolts here or there don't make a difference. But they're not.
jcm
Yeah, but they're connected. If they're sport routes, then a few new bolts here or there don't make a difference. But they're not.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
To be honest, I don't know what their aims are, I was sure it was meant to be bolt for bolt, it was only at the weekend I heard it can be more with the FA's permission. As an example of some changes, check the wiki site, for example this page which shows the Bella Lugosi slab, and the first two routes listed have been changed to sport routes: http://slate.wetpaint.com/page/Collosus+Area
> I didn't know they were doing this, but WTF are they doing, frankly?? I haven't heard a big movement in the climbing world for slate routes to have more bolts on. What on earth's stopping them just replacing the bolts that are there?
To be honest, I don't know what their aims are, I was sure it was meant to be bolt for bolt, it was only at the weekend I heard it can be more with the FA's permission. As an example of some changes, check the wiki site, for example this page which shows the Bella Lugosi slab, and the first two routes listed have been changed to sport routes: http://slate.wetpaint.com/page/Collosus+Area
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Which commented were you replying to? I got lost...
> Yeah, but they're connected. If they're sport routes, then a few new bolts here or there don't make a difference. But they're not.
Which commented were you replying to? I got lost...
In reply to cider nut: Yes, my mate backed off near the top so I finished it off to get the gear.
In reply to PWEI_fan:
It doesn't seem to just be the odd bolt here and there, there appears to be a lot of retrobolting routes. The ones on the Bella Lugosi slab seem to be creating sport routes on an (as far as I can tell) originally bolt-free slab. What's next, Flashdance?
Also, which routes are being replaced bolt for bolt and which ones added to? I'm just wondering as I did Colossus the other day which had far more bolts than I was expecting given the "requires a steady head" comment in the guide. Any ideas?
It doesn't seem to just be the odd bolt here and there, there appears to be a lot of retrobolting routes. The ones on the Bella Lugosi slab seem to be creating sport routes on an (as far as I can tell) originally bolt-free slab. What's next, Flashdance?
Also, which routes are being replaced bolt for bolt and which ones added to? I'm just wondering as I did Colossus the other day which had far more bolts than I was expecting given the "requires a steady head" comment in the guide. Any ideas?
In reply to Aly: Colossus was always well bolted - it had about 13 bolts when first put up.
In reply to cider nut:
Most of where I noticed shiny new bolts you could see the remains of an old one nearby.
I wasn't entirely sure whether to think of them as trad or sport routes either - Adam says "sportingly bolted" rather than sport bolted. There were plenty of routes though where attempting to top out trad style would have been totally mental, in a "shower of slatey death" for yourself and your second sort of way.
Most of where I noticed shiny new bolts you could see the remains of an old one nearby.
I wasn't entirely sure whether to think of them as trad or sport routes either - Adam says "sportingly bolted" rather than sport bolted. There were plenty of routes though where attempting to top out trad style would have been totally mental, in a "shower of slatey death" for yourself and your second sort of way.
In reply to cider nut:
Sad man'son the left, UBL's on the right, DD's up the front of the Butte and is a sport route (5+) the others are fillers with bolts to make them paletable at about VS/HVS.
The bolting ethos of the quarries was driven by poverty, availability and apathy. Hand drilling bolts is hard work, no one could afford a beefy enough cordless drill and even affording hand drill bolts was hard enough. That and acres of new routing potential meant the bolts got spread pretty thin. Some routes were fine sculptures, minimal bolting meant for works of art. Others were just making do. As most of those involved in making slate what it is today still live here or have friends here, we were able to talk to them and ask them what their original vision for the routes were, and act accordingly. As Jethro said 99% of the routes are rebolted bolt for bolt. Some have bolts moved (after disscussion) to be where they would have been if the 1st assentionists were'nt in a rush. Some have had bolts added, as the 1st assentionist would have if they had the cash.
Additionally, time, frost and slate are uneasy bedfellows. Large and small rock falls have altered routes, removed bolts and shattered slabs. So again with disscussion with the 1st assentionists, some bolts have been added to the start of routes to prevent these new challenges causing an unessisary deck out.
We're rebolting out of the love of the quarries, we want you guys to appreciate it to. Its not a place for elitism, but for experimentation.
hose
Sad man'son the left, UBL's on the right, DD's up the front of the Butte and is a sport route (5+) the others are fillers with bolts to make them paletable at about VS/HVS.
The bolting ethos of the quarries was driven by poverty, availability and apathy. Hand drilling bolts is hard work, no one could afford a beefy enough cordless drill and even affording hand drill bolts was hard enough. That and acres of new routing potential meant the bolts got spread pretty thin. Some routes were fine sculptures, minimal bolting meant for works of art. Others were just making do. As most of those involved in making slate what it is today still live here or have friends here, we were able to talk to them and ask them what their original vision for the routes were, and act accordingly. As Jethro said 99% of the routes are rebolted bolt for bolt. Some have bolts moved (after disscussion) to be where they would have been if the 1st assentionists were'nt in a rush. Some have had bolts added, as the 1st assentionist would have if they had the cash.
Additionally, time, frost and slate are uneasy bedfellows. Large and small rock falls have altered routes, removed bolts and shattered slabs. So again with disscussion with the 1st assentionists, some bolts have been added to the start of routes to prevent these new challenges causing an unessisary deck out.
We're rebolting out of the love of the quarries, we want you guys to appreciate it to. Its not a place for elitism, but for experimentation.
hose
In reply to hoseyb:
Thanks. And oops - I put a cam in DD (in a pocket at the top)! But then it does seem to be give both a trad and a sport grade so I didn't know.
Cheers for the input. My views are kind of split, as I can see your side, but also what Aly said is a good point:
"I'm not sure that the fact that they were the FA's gives them the right to say what should and shouldn't now be retro'd seeing as many other people have done the routes and enjoyed them in the style they were created in".
I agree it may be good to make dangerous routes safer (although lower offs on trad routes will always be strange), but I'm not sure about turning some routes into sport (like near Colossus) to make them appeal more and make the quarries more popular, as I've always seem plenty of climbers in the quarries!
> Sad man'son the left, UBL's on the right, DD's up the front of the Butte and is a sport route (5+) the others are fillers with bolts to make them paletable at about VS/HVS.
Thanks. And oops - I put a cam in DD (in a pocket at the top)! But then it does seem to be give both a trad and a sport grade so I didn't know.
> The bolting ethos of the quarries was driven by poverty, availability and apathy. Hand drilling bolts is hard work, no one could afford a beefy enough cordless drill and even affording hand drill bolts was hard enough. That and acres of new routing potential meant the bolts got spread pretty thin. Some routes were fine sculptures, minimal bolting meant for works of art. Others were just making do. As most of those involved in making slate what it is today still live here or have friends here, we were able to talk to them and ask them what their original vision for the routes were, and act accordingly. As Jethro said 99% of the routes are rebolted bolt for bolt. Some have bolts moved (after disscussion) to be where they would have been if the 1st assentionists were'nt in a rush. Some have had bolts added, as the 1st assentionist would have if they had the cash.
> Additionally, time, frost and slate are uneasy bedfellows. Large and small rock falls have altered routes, removed bolts and shattered slabs. So again with disscussion with the 1st assentionists, some bolts have been added to the start of routes to prevent these new challenges causing an unessisary deck out.
>
> We're rebolting out of the love of the quarries, we want you guys to appreciate it to. Its not a place for elitism, but for experimentation.
>
> We're rebolting out of the love of the quarries, we want you guys to appreciate it to. Its not a place for elitism, but for experimentation.
Cheers for the input. My views are kind of split, as I can see your side, but also what Aly said is a good point:
"I'm not sure that the fact that they were the FA's gives them the right to say what should and shouldn't now be retro'd seeing as many other people have done the routes and enjoyed them in the style they were created in".
I agree it may be good to make dangerous routes safer (although lower offs on trad routes will always be strange), but I'm not sure about turning some routes into sport (like near Colossus) to make them appeal more and make the quarries more popular, as I've always seem plenty of climbers in the quarries!
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
As someone who frequently asserts that he abhors all bolts isn't this all just splitting hairs? Either there should be none (no one as far as I know suggests that for Welsh slate) or there should be some; beyond that the choices as to where to put them becomes nuanced.
> The most irritating thing about bolters is their habit of playing God all the time. You turn your back and some f*cker's decided this climb or that would be better with more bolts. What's the matter with these bastards? If they'd rather be out climbing, that's fine with me. Why don't they bl**dy well go out climbing??
As someone who frequently asserts that he abhors all bolts isn't this all just splitting hairs? Either there should be none (no one as far as I know suggests that for Welsh slate) or there should be some; beyond that the choices as to where to put them becomes nuanced.
In reply to hoseyb:
Good for you and the others for putting the effort in. A shame people can't be more appreciative and hold off on the w*nky comments.
Good for you and the others for putting the effort in. A shame people can't be more appreciative and hold off on the w*nky comments.
In reply to tobyfk: I agree that the bolting of Horse Latitudes is controversial, but I think that the wrong impression is being given in this thread. Let's make this very clear: the aforementioned transgression aside, 'classic' slate trad routes are not being turned into sport routes.
What is happening, is a much needed spring clean of a series of neglected crags. Routes that have been gathering dust for the last 20 years are now seeing regular ascents and the quarries are once again buzzing with activity. It all seems very positive to me, and the lads who have been carrying out all this hard work deserve nothing but praise (and many free pints if you see them in the pub).
There are also some very impressive new routes. Check these out for a start:
http://www.groundupclimbing.com/newsitem.asp?nsid=192
What is happening, is a much needed spring clean of a series of neglected crags. Routes that have been gathering dust for the last 20 years are now seeing regular ascents and the quarries are once again buzzing with activity. It all seems very positive to me, and the lads who have been carrying out all this hard work deserve nothing but praise (and many free pints if you see them in the pub).
There are also some very impressive new routes. Check these out for a start:
http://www.groundupclimbing.com/newsitem.asp?nsid=192
In reply to Simon Panton:
Were you actually 'in reply' to me. I thought praise for the lads was rather the essence of my previous post?
> (In reply to tobyfk) and the lads who have been carrying out all this hard work deserve nothing but praise
Were you actually 'in reply' to me. I thought praise for the lads was rather the essence of my previous post?
In reply to Simon Panton: A quick look at the Wiki shows 11 'transgressions' (Gerbil Abuse, Sensible Shoes, Heatseeker, Gin palace etc) described as converted to sport routes which makes it plural not singular! In addition I totted up 39 bolts described as additional to those required for a purely 'like for like' replacement.
That's a pretty unimpassioned observation you understand; I can clearly see the increased activity that the bolting has spurred.
That's a pretty unimpassioned observation you understand; I can clearly see the increased activity that the bolting has spurred.
In reply to tobyfk: Apologies Toby, my reply was a general one; I just hit reply on the last post on the thread, that's all.
In reply to Andy Say: This is just semantics. Those routes you highlight were always approached as sport routes. I don't have a problem with them becoming full clip ups at all. Lots of routes are badly bolted - if the odd extra bolt improves them, I'm all for it.
I was merely pointing out how 'classic' trad routes (such as the Dervish) or any of the well known 'designer danger' routes will never get retro-bolted.
I'll say it again because it is true: what is happening in the quarries now is not an erosion of ethics, it is not the fabled thin end of the wedge; it is merely a much needed sorting out of a situation that has been left to drift into neglect.
I was merely pointing out how 'classic' trad routes (such as the Dervish) or any of the well known 'designer danger' routes will never get retro-bolted.
I'll say it again because it is true: what is happening in the quarries now is not an erosion of ethics, it is not the fabled thin end of the wedge; it is merely a much needed sorting out of a situation that has been left to drift into neglect.
In reply to Andy Say:
The terms converted to sport routes is possibly inadvised. Of the routes you mention I did the first 2 around 10 years ago and they were basically sport routes at the time. From observation I'm pretty sure Gin Palace was in the same class. So 'Previously sport climbing style routes tidied up' might be a better term to stop everybody getting so worked up. The quarries have always had a mix of style of routes from pure trad (The Dervish, Mau Mau, etc), minimally bolted scary adventures (Rainbow slabs etc), spaced bolted sport/trad hybrids (Collosus Wall routes) and a good number of sport / sport style routes (Geordie War Cry, Gerbil Abuse).
> (In reply to Simon Panton) A quick look at the Wiki shows 11 'transgressions' (Gerbil Abuse, Sensible Shoes, Heatseeker, Gin palace etc) described as converted to sport routes which makes it plural not singular! In addition I totted up 39 bolts described as additional to those required for a purely 'like for like' replacement.
The terms converted to sport routes is possibly inadvised. Of the routes you mention I did the first 2 around 10 years ago and they were basically sport routes at the time. From observation I'm pretty sure Gin Palace was in the same class. So 'Previously sport climbing style routes tidied up' might be a better term to stop everybody getting so worked up. The quarries have always had a mix of style of routes from pure trad (The Dervish, Mau Mau, etc), minimally bolted scary adventures (Rainbow slabs etc), spaced bolted sport/trad hybrids (Collosus Wall routes) and a good number of sport / sport style routes (Geordie War Cry, Gerbil Abuse).
In reply to Ian Patterson:
In fact to avoid any confusion how about 'Existing sport climbing style routes tidied up'.
In fact to avoid any confusion how about 'Existing sport climbing style routes tidied up'.
In reply to Ian Patterson:
As an aside (but back to the original point), would you call Mentil Lentils a trad route or a sport one? (And the other three if you've done them)?
As an aside (but back to the original point), would you call Mentil Lentils a trad route or a sport one? (And the other three if you've done them)?
In reply to cider nut: Well at some point I had to raise my head above the parapet tp be shot at. There are many things i can say about numerous poswters on this thread.
Firsy Johnycoxmysteriously you sound like some misinformed Londoner, with very little to do with his time in an office other than bitch on UKC. How very dare you describe the work of a very dedicated and volunteer group of climbers as bastards.
For the most part those routes that have been retro bolted are esoteric and pretty have pretty muvh been neglected since 1986. With the premission of the FA many of these route are now very popular. Including the most controversial Horse latitudes that saw at least 10 ascents on a day that I was there enjoying some of the 'retro' bolted routes.
For me the re-equipping/retro bolting debate goes beyond climbing and stems further into the local economy. Wales is an conomic back water and things like the tremadog cean up, the new selective wales rock guide and the slate 'movement' are putting it back on the map. Something that was evident over the bank holiday weekend.
Venues like the Rainbow Slab, Dervish Slab, Never Neverland, california wall are where the true horror stories of slate exsist, and they still do, even after the re-equipping.
UKC is a great forum, sadly some people are just wildly misinformed, or like JCM just jaded city folk.
To be totally honest I have had a cock full of misinformed, ill judged comments on these forums. I and the people involved in the re-equipping process feel we have made the quarries a better place to climb whether you agree wuth that or not is up to you, but having spent the bank holiday walking round the quarries taking pictures of visiting climbers and canvasing opinion on what they thought of the new bolts I have no recollection of any negative responses.
Firsy Johnycoxmysteriously you sound like some misinformed Londoner, with very little to do with his time in an office other than bitch on UKC. How very dare you describe the work of a very dedicated and volunteer group of climbers as bastards.
For the most part those routes that have been retro bolted are esoteric and pretty have pretty muvh been neglected since 1986. With the premission of the FA many of these route are now very popular. Including the most controversial Horse latitudes that saw at least 10 ascents on a day that I was there enjoying some of the 'retro' bolted routes.
For me the re-equipping/retro bolting debate goes beyond climbing and stems further into the local economy. Wales is an conomic back water and things like the tremadog cean up, the new selective wales rock guide and the slate 'movement' are putting it back on the map. Something that was evident over the bank holiday weekend.
Venues like the Rainbow Slab, Dervish Slab, Never Neverland, california wall are where the true horror stories of slate exsist, and they still do, even after the re-equipping.
UKC is a great forum, sadly some people are just wildly misinformed, or like JCM just jaded city folk.
To be totally honest I have had a cock full of misinformed, ill judged comments on these forums. I and the people involved in the re-equipping process feel we have made the quarries a better place to climb whether you agree wuth that or not is up to you, but having spent the bank holiday walking round the quarries taking pictures of visiting climbers and canvasing opinion on what they thought of the new bolts I have no recollection of any negative responses.
In reply to mark reeves: Mark I think you and the rest of the team have done a great job. I grew up in the area and like you I know many of the first ascentionists of the routes. In almost all cases they say they would have bolted more in line with the sport ethics had they been able to afford the bolts, or had they known better at the time.
The decision to supplement existing bolting with new bolts is the right one in most cases - it has removed inconsistently dangerous sections from routes where there ought to be gear (e.g. the original finish to Psychotherapy) and has prevented further wearing of marginal gear placements (e.g. Is It A Crime?).
I don't know how I feel yet about retrobolting routes that had none before (like Horse Latitudes) but then I haven't climbed it since the bolting - it wasn't amazing before, so hopefully you've done it good.
I fully support your work as I know it's being done with sensitivity, and I will make another donation to the bolt fund next time I'm back home.
(ps the bottom of Mental Lentils is horrible - any chance of a bolt below the slab?)
The decision to supplement existing bolting with new bolts is the right one in most cases - it has removed inconsistently dangerous sections from routes where there ought to be gear (e.g. the original finish to Psychotherapy) and has prevented further wearing of marginal gear placements (e.g. Is It A Crime?).
I don't know how I feel yet about retrobolting routes that had none before (like Horse Latitudes) but then I haven't climbed it since the bolting - it wasn't amazing before, so hopefully you've done it good.
I fully support your work as I know it's being done with sensitivity, and I will make another donation to the bolt fund next time I'm back home.
(ps the bottom of Mental Lentils is horrible - any chance of a bolt below the slab?)
In reply to NickD:
I led this on Sunday, and thought it was okay even though it's only my second HVS. Yep, it gets you thinking, but surely that's all part of the fun! Plus, you can get a small crap swedge behind a chunk of rock (I decided the rock was solid enough to place it), and a good cam just above that, before you step onto the slab and get to the first bolt.
> (ps the bottom of Mental Lentils is horrible - any chance of a bolt below the slab?)
I led this on Sunday, and thought it was okay even though it's only my second HVS. Yep, it gets you thinking, but surely that's all part of the fun! Plus, you can get a small crap swedge behind a chunk of rock (I decided the rock was solid enough to place it), and a good cam just above that, before you step onto the slab and get to the first bolt.
In reply to mark reeves:
I hope you don't want to say anything bad about me? My OP was about general thoughts on the feel of trad routes with bolts in (and wasn't a complaint) rather than ethics, but I'm interested in the ethics side of it too.
I've mentioned my views randomly along the thread, but I'll put them here just in case I came across wrong. I'm 100% for replacing old worn bolts like for like, and think it's great people are putting their time in to do this. I've donated to the bolt fund, and added some route info to the wiki to do my part. I'm less sure about adding lower offs and retro-bolting routes, so am just listening to various views on it here. I think that's important, rather than just assuming the views of other people without thinking. I didn't even realise this was being done until the weekend, hence the interest
> There are many things i can say about numerous poswters on this thread.
I hope you don't want to say anything bad about me? My OP was about general thoughts on the feel of trad routes with bolts in (and wasn't a complaint) rather than ethics, but I'm interested in the ethics side of it too.
I've mentioned my views randomly along the thread, but I'll put them here just in case I came across wrong. I'm 100% for replacing old worn bolts like for like, and think it's great people are putting their time in to do this. I've donated to the bolt fund, and added some route info to the wiki to do my part. I'm less sure about adding lower offs and retro-bolting routes, so am just listening to various views on it here. I think that's important, rather than just assuming the views of other people without thinking. I didn't even realise this was being done until the weekend, hence the interest
In reply to cider nut: Hi Sarah
My main goat was JCM very negative approach to a large team of climbers who dedicate days of there own time so you can enjoy one day out in the quarries. I have climbed in the quarries for 12 years climbed the majpority of the classic routes and lived in the area and know which route literally haven't been climbed more thann once in all that time.
The work has been publised here last year in CLIMB magazine as well as elsewhere. I suggest that you look at past articles here or find the magazine with the full account into the process.
I have ammended the wiki details so they are a little more simple to understand, your comment were great BTW.
My main goat was JCM very negative approach to a large team of climbers who dedicate days of there own time so you can enjoy one day out in the quarries. I have climbed in the quarries for 12 years climbed the majpority of the classic routes and lived in the area and know which route literally haven't been climbed more thann once in all that time.
The work has been publised here last year in CLIMB magazine as well as elsewhere. I suggest that you look at past articles here or find the magazine with the full account into the process.
I have ammended the wiki details so they are a little more simple to understand, your comment were great BTW.
In reply to mark reeves:
Ah, but JCM is always like that.
Ah, well I read Climber Only joking, I knew the work was being done, just not quite what.
I dunno, ask people to write comments then go and put spin on them - 'a little dirty' becomes 'cleaning up with ascents' :p Glad to see the routes in Australia in the right order now though, very useful.
> My main goat was JCM very negative approach to a large team of climbers who dedicate days of there own time so you can enjoy one day out in the quarries.
Ah, but JCM is always like that.
> The work has been publised here last year in CLIMB magazine as well as elsewhere. I suggest that you look at past articles here or find the magazine with the full account into the process.
Ah, well I read Climber Only joking, I knew the work was being done, just not quite what.
> I have ammended the wiki details so they are a little more simple to understand, your comment were great BTW.
I dunno, ask people to write comments then go and put spin on them - 'a little dirty' becomes 'cleaning up with ascents' :p Glad to see the routes in Australia in the right order now though, very useful.
In reply to all:
Hi all,
I was just browsing through the UKC articles, and came across this, which gives more info about what bolting was done and why, up to last November:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=277
Aly:
There's a note near the end which states that Colossus actually had a bolt removed! Although not sure if anything changed since November.
Hi all,
I was just browsing through the UKC articles, and came across this, which gives more info about what bolting was done and why, up to last November:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=277
Aly:
> Also, which routes are being replaced bolt for bolt and which ones added to? I'm just wondering as I did Colossus the other day which had far more bolts than I was expecting given the "requires a steady head" comment in the guide. Any ideas?
There's a note near the end which states that Colossus actually had a bolt removed! Although not sure if anything changed since November.
>
> I dunno, ask people to write comments then go and put spin on them - 'a little dirty' becomes 'cleaning up with ascents' :p Glad to see the routes in Australia in the right order now though, very useful.
> I dunno, ask people to write comments then go and put spin on them - 'a little dirty' becomes 'cleaning up with ascents' :p Glad to see the routes in Australia in the right order now though, very useful.
Glad you appreciate my spin! Believe me if you think they are dirty now, then a few months back they were aweful. Remember never let the truth get in the way of a good story!
In reply to all:
I had some more thoughts on this (the ethics side, not the feel of the routes). How many pure sports routes were there in the quarries before? If there were very few, and now there's more, even though the retro-bolted routes were esoteric and rarely climbed, it may set a precedent for new routes in the quarries to be put up as sport instead of trad. I know there's still hard trad routes going up, as I see them in the news section of Climber. However, there are also some easier bolted routes going up - i.e. F5+ - why were these not put up years ago? Were the new routers too busy climbing harder stuff, was there a lack of equipment, or were they in fact wary of too many bolts?
I had some more thoughts on this (the ethics side, not the feel of the routes). How many pure sports routes were there in the quarries before? If there were very few, and now there's more, even though the retro-bolted routes were esoteric and rarely climbed, it may set a precedent for new routes in the quarries to be put up as sport instead of trad. I know there's still hard trad routes going up, as I see them in the news section of Climber. However, there are also some easier bolted routes going up - i.e. F5+ - why were these not put up years ago? Were the new routers too busy climbing harder stuff, was there a lack of equipment, or were they in fact wary of too many bolts?
In reply to cider nut: I think there certainly were sports routes and these have even been put up alongside bolder trad routes (look at The very big...etc on Rainbow slab) and worked OK but I also get the impression that people were not only poor but also reluctant to put in too many bolts. The comments in the guide r.e. things like the Concience Slab and Heading The Shot seem to imply this.
I also don't know how much bolts on sports routes have affected trad routes, wasn't there some controversy over the Weetabix Connection/Bobby's Groove? Has the Weetabix Connection been stripped of its bolts?? Do the bolts on things like Cure For A Sick Mind (is this the right route?) make bolts clippable on Rainbow... etc.??? I certainly get the impression that there is more of a precedent to put up sports routes now where they might have been done trad before with all the rebolting but, having only really discovered the quarries a few years ago, I don't know what the 'older' locals think.
I also don't know how much bolts on sports routes have affected trad routes, wasn't there some controversy over the Weetabix Connection/Bobby's Groove? Has the Weetabix Connection been stripped of its bolts?? Do the bolts on things like Cure For A Sick Mind (is this the right route?) make bolts clippable on Rainbow... etc.??? I certainly get the impression that there is more of a precedent to put up sports routes now where they might have been done trad before with all the rebolting but, having only really discovered the quarries a few years ago, I don't know what the 'older' locals think.
In reply to cider nut:
Things are in a bit of a transition at the moment and everything will probably sort itself out later in the year when the re-equipping project is 'finished' or at least starts to wind up and the new Ground Up Slate guide is published.
I'm pretty sure that nearly all routes will resolve themselves clearly into one camp of the other and the new guide will grade them clearly as sport routes or trad routes.
Once you've climed the routes all seems slightly clearer. Having fallen off Ride the Wild Surf and then backed off Colosus when having a rather poor afternoom, I can testify they are still TRAD routes regardless of how shiny the bolts are. Equally, Race Against the Pump is a good sport route despite needing to climb the frist half of an E3 on small wires to reach the first bolt.
Having done Mentil Lentils on Thursday morning my view is that it's good HVS. I also think it makes a better HVS than the f5 it would be with a lower first bolt.
Next time you're in Vivian I'd certainly recommend you try Monster Kitten and also Psychotherpy (now a good E1 5b/c).
> So was just wondering what other people's thoughts are? Trad because of the supplementary trad gear, or sport because of the lower offs and additional safety?
Things are in a bit of a transition at the moment and everything will probably sort itself out later in the year when the re-equipping project is 'finished' or at least starts to wind up and the new Ground Up Slate guide is published.
I'm pretty sure that nearly all routes will resolve themselves clearly into one camp of the other and the new guide will grade them clearly as sport routes or trad routes.
Once you've climed the routes all seems slightly clearer. Having fallen off Ride the Wild Surf and then backed off Colosus when having a rather poor afternoom, I can testify they are still TRAD routes regardless of how shiny the bolts are. Equally, Race Against the Pump is a good sport route despite needing to climb the frist half of an E3 on small wires to reach the first bolt.
Having done Mentil Lentils on Thursday morning my view is that it's good HVS. I also think it makes a better HVS than the f5 it would be with a lower first bolt.
Next time you're in Vivian I'd certainly recommend you try Monster Kitten and also Psychotherpy (now a good E1 5b/c).
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
I thought Colossus felt very much like a sport route (as long as you didn't mind taking some air off it) but RTWS looked like it had fewer bolts. Is it as pumpy as its reputation?
That's a shame, Psychotherapy was (another) route that I really wanted to do in its original state as it looked exciting.
> Having fallen off Ride the Wild Surf and then backed off Colosus when having a rather poor afternoom, I can testify they are still TRAD routes regardless of how shiny the bolts are.
I thought Colossus felt very much like a sport route (as long as you didn't mind taking some air off it) but RTWS looked like it had fewer bolts. Is it as pumpy as its reputation?
> Next time you're in Vivian I'd certainly recommend you try Monster Kitten and also Psychotherpy (now a good E1 5b/c).
That's a shame, Psychotherapy was (another) route that I really wanted to do in its original state as it looked exciting.
In reply to Aly:
Colossus always was a sport route really.
Psychotherapy was absolutely fine and steady as it was - what's the justification behind this change?? It was hardly a "friable and unpopular route"...
Colossus always was a sport route really.
Psychotherapy was absolutely fine and steady as it was - what's the justification behind this change?? It was hardly a "friable and unpopular route"...
In reply to Fiend: I certainly got the impression it had loads of traffic and was a good route. I've never done it but can't see much justifiction for adding bolts to routes like this.
In reply to Mark Stevenson: In view of psychotherapy. It is still E2 5c for the crux low down., as the two original bolts are where they were.
There is however a third bolt high up on the left that allows a better direct finish up a 5b wall to be climbed rather than walking right to a crack and scrambling to the lower off.
It is defo E2 though.
There is however a third bolt high up on the left that allows a better direct finish up a 5b wall to be climbed rather than walking right to a crack and scrambling to the lower off.
It is defo E2 though.
In reply to cider nut:
I will email you the text from the climb article save re-writing it.
I will email you the text from the climb article save re-writing it.
In reply to mark reeves:
Alright, that sounds okay then, although I can't remember any weirdness with the finish when I did it.
Alright, that sounds okay then, although I can't remember any weirdness with the finish when I did it.
In reply to mark reeves: Grades are strange things....
Psychotherapy didn't feel remotely E2 to me. One 5c? move close beside a brand new bolt followed by a 5b move to stand in balance makes it E1 in my book. It felt similar to Monster Kitten, a harder move but less strenous and good gear. Bella Lugosi is Dead (sp?) felt harder overall and the crux is far easier than the crux on Fool's Gold.
I'm not 100% but I think Simon thought it was more like E1 than E2 when we were chatting about the re-equipping in V12 on Sunday.
Psychotherapy didn't feel remotely E2 to me. One 5c? move close beside a brand new bolt followed by a 5b move to stand in balance makes it E1 in my book. It felt similar to Monster Kitten, a harder move but less strenous and good gear. Bella Lugosi is Dead (sp?) felt harder overall and the crux is far easier than the crux on Fool's Gold.
I'm not 100% but I think Simon thought it was more like E1 than E2 when we were chatting about the re-equipping in V12 on Sunday.
In reply to cider nut:
This question has now been answered from an article (the one from Climb)? They just didn't bother, and soloed the easier routes intead. Now they've been bolted to open up some easier lines for people.
I'm still a little unsure what I think about lower offs, but as Mark S says, when the new guide book comes out showing clearly whether a route is sport or trad, this will be less of an issue.
One final thing (for Mark Reeves) - on the wiki, where it says 'new bolts' or 'new bolts and lower off' this is a little ambiguous, as it's unclear whether they're new bolts/lower offs like for like, or new bolts/lower offs where there wasn't any before.
> However, there are also some easier bolted routes going up - i.e. F5+ - why were these not put up years ago? Were the new routers too busy climbing harder stuff, was there a lack of equipment, or were they in fact wary of too many bolts?
This question has now been answered from an article (the one from Climb)? They just didn't bother, and soloed the easier routes intead. Now they've been bolted to open up some easier lines for people.
I'm still a little unsure what I think about lower offs, but as Mark S says, when the new guide book comes out showing clearly whether a route is sport or trad, this will be less of an issue.
One final thing (for Mark Reeves) - on the wiki, where it says 'new bolts' or 'new bolts and lower off' this is a little ambiguous, as it's unclear whether they're new bolts/lower offs like for like, or new bolts/lower offs where there wasn't any before.
In reply to cider nut: Sorry sarah it was just impossible(sorry to much effort) to make a destinction between 'new' lower offs and replacing exsisting ones.
What with drilling, bolting, writing the new guide, up dating the historical section in the new guide, climbing, working and struggling through life I simply haven't had the time to up date this.
Feel free to debate away as to whether adding a lower for convience is a good or bad thing. You have caught me on a bad day and personally I couldn't give a monkeys for the time being. I personaly feel pretty done in constantly having to come on here almost justifying the actions and face endless questions from climbers on the ground.
For the time being "Face, Bothered"
Sorry nothing personal sarah the last bit is more general, but I had an brainwave in the last few days that I will stop trying to do what I and many people feel is doing the quarries good and start concerntrating on trying to earn a living.
My drilling days are over for the time being. Can someone start up a new thread entitled what does an freelance instructor have to do to earn a living in North Wales, especially when there back constantly fails them.
Balls to aulturism.
What with drilling, bolting, writing the new guide, up dating the historical section in the new guide, climbing, working and struggling through life I simply haven't had the time to up date this.
Feel free to debate away as to whether adding a lower for convience is a good or bad thing. You have caught me on a bad day and personally I couldn't give a monkeys for the time being. I personaly feel pretty done in constantly having to come on here almost justifying the actions and face endless questions from climbers on the ground.
For the time being "Face, Bothered"
Sorry nothing personal sarah the last bit is more general, but I had an brainwave in the last few days that I will stop trying to do what I and many people feel is doing the quarries good and start concerntrating on trying to earn a living.
My drilling days are over for the time being. Can someone start up a new thread entitled what does an freelance instructor have to do to earn a living in North Wales, especially when there back constantly fails them.
Balls to aulturism.
In reply to mark reeves:
Somebody should be paying you for all your hard work in the Quarries......has the Bolt Fund considered Grants from the National Lottery? Sports Council? Gwynedd County Council? BMC? etc.
Keep up the good work!
Somebody should be paying you for all your hard work in the Quarries......has the Bolt Fund considered Grants from the National Lottery? Sports Council? Gwynedd County Council? BMC? etc.
Keep up the good work!
In reply to mark reeves:
Mark - I'm not criticising though, just discussing. You're aware that the campaign will attract discussion, in fact in the article you mailed me it said "Some people will have a problem with the work that is being carried out and I would be glad to hear there measured response." I don't even have a problem with it, just some queries, so surely that's even more acceptible? I would have thought feedback was useful, as long as it's put accross proplerly (as I hope mine is). I completely understand that mine is only one view, and an undecided one at that, and I don't expect the campaign to be rethought due to a single person's comments or anything like that (your article shows that you have considered all possible view points and offer responses to them, which is good), but surely we all get to voice our thoughts.
Hope your day improves (my week's not really going to plan either), and keep up the good work. If you every spot me in the quarries or the pub, I'll buy you a pint.
Mark - I'm not criticising though, just discussing. You're aware that the campaign will attract discussion, in fact in the article you mailed me it said "Some people will have a problem with the work that is being carried out and I would be glad to hear there measured response." I don't even have a problem with it, just some queries, so surely that's even more acceptible? I would have thought feedback was useful, as long as it's put accross proplerly (as I hope mine is). I completely understand that mine is only one view, and an undecided one at that, and I don't expect the campaign to be rethought due to a single person's comments or anything like that (your article shows that you have considered all possible view points and offer responses to them, which is good), but surely we all get to voice our thoughts.
Hope your day improves (my week's not really going to plan either), and keep up the good work. If you every spot me in the quarries or the pub, I'll buy you a pint.
In reply to mark reeves:
p.s. I know what it's like being busy, I'm organising a meet this Saturday and meets in the Churnet Valley every Thursday, and what with evenings climbings and not enough sleep, I'm quite tired and losing enjoyment of stuff. It comes back though. If I can help, without putting in money or living local, let me know - I could proof read bits of the guide book for example? I'm okay at spotting spelling/grammatical errors etc and know the quarries a little, not the hard routes but the areas and easy routes, enough to understand the guide...
p.s. I know what it's like being busy, I'm organising a meet this Saturday and meets in the Churnet Valley every Thursday, and what with evenings climbings and not enough sleep, I'm quite tired and losing enjoyment of stuff. It comes back though. If I can help, without putting in money or living local, let me know - I could proof read bits of the guide book for example? I'm okay at spotting spelling/grammatical errors etc and know the quarries a little, not the hard routes but the areas and easy routes, enough to understand the guide...
In reply to Simon Panton:
Gerbil Abuse was most certainly not a blo**dy sport route!
At least not if it’s what I’m thinking of – an E4 groove opposite Rainbow Slab, with a rather awkward clip round to the left off a shelf?
In reply to Toby fk: whether we wouldn’t be better off without bolted slate routes at all is another question; given that we have them, I wish they’d stop retrobolting them.
jcm
Gerbil Abuse was most certainly not a blo**dy sport route!
At least not if it’s what I’m thinking of – an E4 groove opposite Rainbow Slab, with a rather awkward clip round to the left off a shelf?
In reply to Toby fk: whether we wouldn’t be better off without bolted slate routes at all is another question; given that we have them, I wish they’d stop retrobolting them.
jcm
In reply to mark reeves:
Spare me the stuff about how ungrateful I am. I enjoyed many days out in the quarries before this large and dedicated team of climbers replaced various bolts, and I expect that if I start climbing actively again I'll enjoy just as many more whether the large and dedicated team ever existed or not. This line reminds me of that fellow who did some rope-access stuff with bolts on Parliament House Cave, and then came on here and posted about how he climbed with his children so he must be a nice guy and therefore it was OK (actually, I think that was a sidekick of his). Has anyone taken those out yet, by the way? Now there's a public service actually needs doing.
You list the areas where the true horrors of slate exist and say they always will: I hope you're right but Gin Palace isn't a million miles from the Dervish Slab, as I recall, and I gather you've retroed that.
This argument about how wonderful it is how many climbers enjoy routes once they've been converted into clip-ups always annoys me. Let's face it, bolt the Dervish and it'll have many more ascents (or, in bolter-speak, 'many more people will be able to enjoy it').
Idle off-topic thought (connected with wedges) - what happened to the start of Tequila Mockingbird? I take it no-one ever removed the bolt placed to soften Fawcett's original start?
jcm
Spare me the stuff about how ungrateful I am. I enjoyed many days out in the quarries before this large and dedicated team of climbers replaced various bolts, and I expect that if I start climbing actively again I'll enjoy just as many more whether the large and dedicated team ever existed or not. This line reminds me of that fellow who did some rope-access stuff with bolts on Parliament House Cave, and then came on here and posted about how he climbed with his children so he must be a nice guy and therefore it was OK (actually, I think that was a sidekick of his). Has anyone taken those out yet, by the way? Now there's a public service actually needs doing.
You list the areas where the true horrors of slate exist and say they always will: I hope you're right but Gin Palace isn't a million miles from the Dervish Slab, as I recall, and I gather you've retroed that.
This argument about how wonderful it is how many climbers enjoy routes once they've been converted into clip-ups always annoys me. Let's face it, bolt the Dervish and it'll have many more ascents (or, in bolter-speak, 'many more people will be able to enjoy it').
Idle off-topic thought (connected with wedges) - what happened to the start of Tequila Mockingbird? I take it no-one ever removed the bolt placed to soften Fawcett's original start?
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Yes that's the one - I definitely remember it as sport(ish) route. Though admittedly it was probably 12 or more years ago and I was quite a bit braver.
> (In reply to Simon Panton)
>
> Gerbil Abuse was most certainly not a blo**dy sport route!
>
> At least not if it’s what I’m thinking of – an E4 groove opposite Rainbow Slab, with a rather awkward clip round to the left off a shelf?
>
>
> Gerbil Abuse was most certainly not a blo**dy sport route!
>
> At least not if it’s what I’m thinking of – an E4 groove opposite Rainbow Slab, with a rather awkward clip round to the left off a shelf?
>
Yes that's the one - I definitely remember it as sport(ish) route. Though admittedly it was probably 12 or more years ago and I was quite a bit braver.
In reply to Aly:
RTWS isn't pumpy at all. It's bouldery, if anything, with a bit of a run-out at one point. Unless someone's decided it would be better without the run-out so that everyone can enjoy it since I last visited, that is.
jcm
RTWS isn't pumpy at all. It's bouldery, if anything, with a bit of a run-out at one point. Unless someone's decided it would be better without the run-out so that everyone can enjoy it since I last visited, that is.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to mark reeves)>
>
> You list the areas where the true horrors of slate exist and say they always will: I hope you're right but Gin Palace isn't a million miles from the Dervish Slab, as I recall, and I gather you've retroed that.
>
Have you done Gin Palace? I haven't but remember looking at it and thinking I might have a go - obviously desperate but safe with bolts on all the hard climbing as far as I could see. Maybe I'm wrong but it looks like you're just spoiling for a fight rather than finding real examples - nobody is talking about retro bolting scary bolted routes on the Rainbow slab or completey trad things on the Dervish slab. >
> You list the areas where the true horrors of slate exist and say they always will: I hope you're right but Gin Palace isn't a million miles from the Dervish Slab, as I recall, and I gather you've retroed that.
>
In reply to mark reeves:
Thank you to you and everyone else involved in the re-equipping. The quarries have always been one of my favourite places to climb, it's good to know that the climbs are being cared for.
Thank you to you and everyone else involved in the re-equipping. The quarries have always been one of my favourite places to climb, it's good to know that the climbs are being cared for.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Well I enjoyed many days out in the quarries due to a small and committed team who originally equipped the routes - I certainly wouldn't have done the likes of Poetry Pink and Splitstream without them. And given that you accept those bolts (maybe you don't) then it seems necessary that they are replaced at some point - or do you believe we should let them rot until the routes are unclimbable by some like me (and possibly you!).
So well done to everybody who's doing all the work - you never know I may even be inspired to leave the sport climbing fleshpots of Yorkshire for trip.
> (In reply to mark reeves)
>
> Spare me the stuff about how ungrateful I am. I enjoyed many days out in the quarries before this large and dedicated team of climbers replaced various bolts, and I expect that if I start climbing actively again I'll enjoy just as many more whether the large and dedicated team ever existed or not.
>
> Spare me the stuff about how ungrateful I am. I enjoyed many days out in the quarries before this large and dedicated team of climbers replaced various bolts, and I expect that if I start climbing actively again I'll enjoy just as many more whether the large and dedicated team ever existed or not.
Well I enjoyed many days out in the quarries due to a small and committed team who originally equipped the routes - I certainly wouldn't have done the likes of Poetry Pink and Splitstream without them. And given that you accept those bolts (maybe you don't) then it seems necessary that they are replaced at some point - or do you believe we should let them rot until the routes are unclimbable by some like me (and possibly you!).
So well done to everybody who's doing all the work - you never know I may even be inspired to leave the sport climbing fleshpots of Yorkshire for trip.
In reply to Ian Patterson:
No, I haven't. I agree, it seemed to have bolts where needed, and if there were some places where you'd have liked a few more, so what, would have been my view.
So you say. But I'm told Heading the Shot, for example, has had its scary start softened and the slightly scary clip higher up made easier. That's pretty much of a classic, subtly sportified. Just like Tequila way back when. It's an insidious process, and I don't like it. It never goes into reverse.
jcm
No, I haven't. I agree, it seemed to have bolts where needed, and if there were some places where you'd have liked a few more, so what, would have been my view.
So you say. But I'm told Heading the Shot, for example, has had its scary start softened and the slightly scary clip higher up made easier. That's pretty much of a classic, subtly sportified. Just like Tequila way back when. It's an insidious process, and I don't like it. It never goes into reverse.
jcm
In reply to Ian Patterson:
I agree; if they'd stuck to replacing dodgy original bolts I'd have been happy to applaud and contribute. But they haven't, from what I can see.
jcm
I agree; if they'd stuck to replacing dodgy original bolts I'd have been happy to applaud and contribute. But they haven't, from what I can see.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: What's the story with Tequila? I thought there was a bolt in it from the start, in which case the start hasn't been softened.
As an aside, 20 odd years ago there was a climber in Reading who was really very good. He was the competitive sort, and liked to imagine that he could have a reasonable attempt at any climb in existence. He had a go at Tequila and couldn't even see what he was meant to do to reach the bolt. He gave up climbing and took up Formula Ford motor racing.
As an aside, 20 odd years ago there was a climber in Reading who was really very good. He was the competitive sort, and liked to imagine that he could have a reasonable attempt at any climb in existence. He had a go at Tequila and couldn't even see what he was meant to do to reach the bolt. He gave up climbing and took up Formula Ford motor racing.
In reply to John2:
The first bolt was originally quite some way up, 25-30 feet or so, I think. Some talentless aspirant (Mark Pretty, perhaps) thought a new bolt in this section would make his redpoint attempts easier and considered he had the right to place it because 'he'd done the bold start already and didn't want to have to reclimb it every time he tried to link the whole route'. So he put another bolt in.
Climbers being what they are, I imagine it's still there, but I just wondered.
jcm
The first bolt was originally quite some way up, 25-30 feet or so, I think. Some talentless aspirant (Mark Pretty, perhaps) thought a new bolt in this section would make his redpoint attempts easier and considered he had the right to place it because 'he'd done the bold start already and didn't want to have to reclimb it every time he tried to link the whole route'. So he put another bolt in.
Climbers being what they are, I imagine it's still there, but I just wondered.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: OK, I remember reading about that now. I haven't been to Chee Tor since the new bolt was added.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Your arguements might have come across better if you'd said that in the first place rather than appearing to attack the process as a whole. The routes you're complaining do fall into an area where people have different opinions - I probably fall on the opposite side of that argument to you but that doesn't stop us agreeing on how te majority of the routes in the quarries should look.
> (In reply to Ian Patterson)
>
> I agree; if they'd stuck to replacing dodgy original bolts I'd have been happy to applaud and contribute. But they haven't, from what I can see.
>
>
> I agree; if they'd stuck to replacing dodgy original bolts I'd have been happy to applaud and contribute. But they haven't, from what I can see.
>
Your arguements might have come across better if you'd said that in the first place rather than appearing to attack the process as a whole. The routes you're complaining do fall into an area where people have different opinions - I probably fall on the opposite side of that argument to you but that doesn't stop us agreeing on how te majority of the routes in the quarries should look.
In reply to Ian Patterson:
I think if you reread what I said I was pretty specific about complaining about 'more bolts'. In reply to someone called Matt who I now see was rather understating the changes made.
I have other complaints too, of course. I don't see putting up 5+ clipups in the quarries as a remotely sensible thing to do.
jcm
I think if you reread what I said I was pretty specific about complaining about 'more bolts'. In reply to someone called Matt who I now see was rather understating the changes made.
I have other complaints too, of course. I don't see putting up 5+ clipups in the quarries as a remotely sensible thing to do.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
You really need to take a closer look at the work that has been done before coming on here spouting off. I'll think you'll find it was the very same Mark Reeves who took a day out of his life to chop the bolts on Parliment House Cave. Where were you?
The retro bolting is confined to a very small number of routes and has generally been aplauded round here. 98% percent of the work done has been like for like. There has been some tidying up but nothing to change the character of most routes. The bolts need replacing as they were mostly inexpertely hand placed 8mm's.
Go climbing in the quarries or at least read up what's been done at http://slate.wetpaint.com
Mike Raine, Llanberis
You really need to take a closer look at the work that has been done before coming on here spouting off. I'll think you'll find it was the very same Mark Reeves who took a day out of his life to chop the bolts on Parliment House Cave. Where were you?
The retro bolting is confined to a very small number of routes and has generally been aplauded round here. 98% percent of the work done has been like for like. There has been some tidying up but nothing to change the character of most routes. The bolts need replacing as they were mostly inexpertely hand placed 8mm's.
Go climbing in the quarries or at least read up what's been done at http://slate.wetpaint.com
Mike Raine, Llanberis
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