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I've never been any good at running it out - as soon as the gear is by my feet I start getting scared Even if I know the gear is 100% bombproof, and the fall will be a clean one.
I fought my way to the top of a crack at Millstone yesterday, and when it runs out you have the choice of continuing out left for a delicate, gearless traverse or move right into another crack and gear. You can guess which one I chose!
What goes on in your head when you lead a run-out route? Any tips or mental tricks?
Cheers
I fought my way to the top of a crack at Millstone yesterday, and when it runs out you have the choice of continuing out left for a delicate, gearless traverse or move right into another crack and gear. You can guess which one I chose!
What goes on in your head when you lead a run-out route? Any tips or mental tricks?
Cheers
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
Get an unreliable, easily distracted belayer who seems to decide to lock the rope up at random and frequently doesn't respond to calls unless threats are involved:
After that being a tad run out seems fine
Get an unreliable, easily distracted belayer who seems to decide to lock the rope up at random and frequently doesn't respond to calls unless threats are involved:
After that being a tad run out seems fine
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: There must be a grade at which you are happy climbing run out routes. Climb a few at that grade to get used to the feeling, then gradually increase the grade to what you are really capable of.
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
Out of interest do you ever solo anything?
Out of interest do you ever solo anything?
I do the following:
1. Gibber for a bit.
2. Have a bit of a disco moment.
3. Climb up a bit.
4. Climb back down.
5. Gibber, place more gear.
6. Climb up a bit.
7. Climb back down.
8. Back off.
1. Gibber for a bit.
2. Have a bit of a disco moment.
3. Climb up a bit.
4. Climb back down.
5. Gibber, place more gear.
6. Climb up a bit.
7. Climb back down.
8. Back off.
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: This years achievement was Sundowner. I had no issues about it nor was I worried except for my tiny lightweight belayer.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=63326
When interested again would like to climb on Glen Etive slabs - meant to have fine runouts on that.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=63326
When interested again would like to climb on Glen Etive slabs - meant to have fine runouts on that.
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
hang around for ages until I get annoyed with myself for being a wimp and make the moves. I then find out it was actually quite easy, so i recommend it to all my friends, not mentioning how much i faffed, then sit back and watch them do the same thing
hang around for ages until I get annoyed with myself for being a wimp and make the moves. I then find out it was actually quite easy, so i recommend it to all my friends, not mentioning how much i faffed, then sit back and watch them do the same thing
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
I haven't led many run-out routes. I don't cope with them very well; I gibber. I like gear, me.
A recent run-out route was a 35m-ish slab pitch on a, supposed, VDiff. I managed to get one piece of gear... At 25m-ish. That can't be right for VDiff, surely?
FM on Slieve Lamagan, in the Mournes. Of course, it's entirely possible that I was off route... Again.
I haven't led many run-out routes. I don't cope with them very well; I gibber. I like gear, me.
A recent run-out route was a 35m-ish slab pitch on a, supposed, VDiff. I managed to get one piece of gear... At 25m-ish. That can't be right for VDiff, surely?
FM on Slieve Lamagan, in the Mournes. Of course, it's entirely possible that I was off route... Again.
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: Advice :-
Either remove brain before climbing (my technique as I share my only braincell with the local pooch), or
Learn to fall on your gear so you trust in it, or
Climb runouts well in your grade.
Top roping any classics this weekend? (soz couldn't resist)
Either remove brain before climbing (my technique as I share my only braincell with the local pooch), or
Learn to fall on your gear so you trust in it, or
Climb runouts well in your grade.
Top roping any classics this weekend? (soz couldn't resist)
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
Perhaps the only aspect of climbing that I'm vaguely good at; always found an element of detatchment from consequence works for me. Once I start moving I just get into the mindset of what will happen will happen.
Managed motorcade like this despite being pretty terrified before leaving the little ledge.
Obviously this strategy needs to be tempered with sensible choices of routes, which I often find harder than the actual act of climbing them.
Perhaps the only aspect of climbing that I'm vaguely good at; always found an element of detatchment from consequence works for me. Once I start moving I just get into the mindset of what will happen will happen.
Managed motorcade like this despite being pretty terrified before leaving the little ledge.
Obviously this strategy needs to be tempered with sensible choices of routes, which I often find harder than the actual act of climbing them.
In reply to Glyn Jones:
no need to worry about your belayer on that one - you'll be on the deck before the rope bothers them
> Sundowner
no need to worry about your belayer on that one - you'll be on the deck before the rope bothers them
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: Don't think about the runnout, think about the top. You can't fall off so don't even consider the possability. If you do you will!
In reply to featuresforfeet:
LOL!
Did bag the route too?
> (In reply to Glyn Jones)
>
> [...]
>
> no need to worry about your belayer on that one - you'll be on the deck before the rope bothers them
>
> [...]
>
> no need to worry about your belayer on that one - you'll be on the deck before the rope bothers them
LOL!
Did bag the route too?
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
I'm not too bad at the moment. I've been doing lots of easy soloing lately and it's helped my head for run-outs. It really depends how hard the route is and whether I can see somewhere to place gear coming up. If I do start to get nervous I talk to myself, sometimes reassuringly, sometimes in terms of abuse, I keep asking my belayer if I’m at deck-out level and I sing or hum stupid tunes (last week it was ‘under-cammed, over-cammed, wandering free’ to the tune of the Womble Song). So, in essence, I act like a crazy person when I’m scared and run-out 8-)
I'm not too bad at the moment. I've been doing lots of easy soloing lately and it's helped my head for run-outs. It really depends how hard the route is and whether I can see somewhere to place gear coming up. If I do start to get nervous I talk to myself, sometimes reassuringly, sometimes in terms of abuse, I keep asking my belayer if I’m at deck-out level and I sing or hum stupid tunes (last week it was ‘under-cammed, over-cammed, wandering free’ to the tune of the Womble Song). So, in essence, I act like a crazy person when I’m scared and run-out 8-)
In reply to climbingpixie:
Is this any different to when you are not scared?
> (In reply to Nick Smith - UKC)
>
> So, in essence, I act like a crazy person when I’m scared and run-out 8-)
>
> So, in essence, I act like a crazy person when I’m scared and run-out 8-)
Is this any different to when you are not scared?
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
I find that I get more nervous running it out on routes that are comfortably within my grade, or on easier sections of hard routes. When I'm climbing at my limit I concentrate so much on 'trying to not fall off' that I get less worried about the potential of falling.
By contrast, when I'm leading something that's within my grade, or when I reach a good rest point, I'm start worrying about the quality of the rock, how good that last placement was, how much chalk I have etc. simply because I'm not thinking about the difficulty of the moves.
The problem on your route the other day (Time for Tea, it sounds like to me?) is that you can get an almost no-hands rest at the top of the first crack, which gives you plenty of time to start worrying about gear/falling/etc. The trick is to get over that 'ledge-itis', and launch into the hard section 100% focused on the simple task of not falling off. Once you achieve that focus, you are removed from your fear (though of course not completely separated from it), thus increasing the chances that you probably won't fall off!
> What goes on in your head when you lead a run-out route? Any tips or mental tricks?
I find that I get more nervous running it out on routes that are comfortably within my grade, or on easier sections of hard routes. When I'm climbing at my limit I concentrate so much on 'trying to not fall off' that I get less worried about the potential of falling.
By contrast, when I'm leading something that's within my grade, or when I reach a good rest point, I'm start worrying about the quality of the rock, how good that last placement was, how much chalk I have etc. simply because I'm not thinking about the difficulty of the moves.
The problem on your route the other day (Time for Tea, it sounds like to me?) is that you can get an almost no-hands rest at the top of the first crack, which gives you plenty of time to start worrying about gear/falling/etc. The trick is to get over that 'ledge-itis', and launch into the hard section 100% focused on the simple task of not falling off. Once you achieve that focus, you are removed from your fear (though of course not completely separated from it), thus increasing the chances that you probably won't fall off!
Got pretty scared on Gnat Attack @ Bus Stop Quarries last week. That had a serious run out to the top. One of those ones that once you leave the last bolt you have no choice but to keep going.
A general answer to the question is to carry on regardless!
A general answer to the question is to carry on regardless!
In reply to DaveR: Same as Dave657.
But just think about the climbing. I have a strong suspicion that learning to lead on indoor walls or bolted routes fosters a mentality of "getting to the next bolt" so that the reason for moving upwards is to acquire protection.
Whilst the desire to find a bomber wire placement on some run-out desperate is naturally very powerful, I think having your focus on finding gear placements is counterproductive.
I'm not saying "run it out and damn the torpedoes" but if you judge the situation and decide to go ahead then think about doing the moves right. And don't fall off...
But just think about the climbing. I have a strong suspicion that learning to lead on indoor walls or bolted routes fosters a mentality of "getting to the next bolt" so that the reason for moving upwards is to acquire protection.
Whilst the desire to find a bomber wire placement on some run-out desperate is naturally very powerful, I think having your focus on finding gear placements is counterproductive.
I'm not saying "run it out and damn the torpedoes" but if you judge the situation and decide to go ahead then think about doing the moves right. And don't fall off...
In reply to climbingpixie:
That's so strange! I've had those words to that tune going through my head as well. I think the last time was doing Avalanche Wall at Curbar when I was trying to get a friend in above the piece of tat.
That's so strange! I've had those words to that tune going through my head as well. I think the last time was doing Avalanche Wall at Curbar when I was trying to get a friend in above the piece of tat.
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: I focus on the moves and forget about the fall.
Try to imagine how good it will feel to get to the top of the route.
Talk to yourself. eg There's no way you can fall of 5a. So get on with it.
Solo more. Helped me loads.
Remember the bigger the lead fall the more softer the landing. Assuming you don't hit the ground.
Not that you need this advise, you seem to be going well! and every climbing magazine seems to have a article about it!
Anyway, off to Grit.
Cheers
Ian
Try to imagine how good it will feel to get to the top of the route.
Talk to yourself. eg There's no way you can fall of 5a. So get on with it.
Solo more. Helped me loads.
Remember the bigger the lead fall the more softer the landing. Assuming you don't hit the ground.
Not that you need this advise, you seem to be going well! and every climbing magazine seems to have a article about it!
Anyway, off to Grit.
Cheers
Ian
In reply to mike kann:
racing for the top can be a risky if seductive thing though - it's a tendency in myself i need to make the effort to remember not to do
arrow route on skye was my favourite run out - i think i found a pointless size 1 flexible cam somewhere off the line in 50m of slab - it's only vdiff mind
> (In reply to Nick Smith - UKC) Don't think about the runnout, think about the top.
racing for the top can be a risky if seductive thing though - it's a tendency in myself i need to make the effort to remember not to do
arrow route on skye was my favourite run out - i think i found a pointless size 1 flexible cam somewhere off the line in 50m of slab - it's only vdiff mind
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
Even if the climb is well within your grade take some time to check out the moves from above and below and make sure you know exactly what you are going to do at those points. Then when you get on the route you'll either find things come easily and you won't worry about the run out or you'll be trying so hard to remember what you thought of 10 minutes ago you'll forget about the run out, either way works! Obviously this works a lot better on single pitch...
Even if the climb is well within your grade take some time to check out the moves from above and below and make sure you know exactly what you are going to do at those points. Then when you get on the route you'll either find things come easily and you won't worry about the run out or you'll be trying so hard to remember what you thought of 10 minutes ago you'll forget about the run out, either way works! Obviously this works a lot better on single pitch...
In reply to AdrianC:
Good advice - I definitely focus on getting to the next 'safe point'. Either what I hope will be a good gear placement, or a good hold/ledge/etc. Fair enough, except many routes either don't have a next 'safe point' or you can't see it from well below. It's these situations that I really struggle to leave my comfy ledge/hold/gear and launch up into the unknown.
I do loads of soloing, and of course I think entirely about the current moves, not what is coming up, or gear or how far I'm going to fall, etc. I'm sure I climb much better when I'm soloing!
> But just think about the climbing. I have a strong suspicion that learning to lead on indoor walls or bolted routes fosters a mentality of "getting to the next bolt" so that the reason for moving upwards is to acquire protection.
>
> Whilst the desire to find a bomber wire placement on some run-out desperate is naturally very powerful, I think having your focus on finding gear placements is counterproductive.
>
> Whilst the desire to find a bomber wire placement on some run-out desperate is naturally very powerful, I think having your focus on finding gear placements is counterproductive.
Good advice - I definitely focus on getting to the next 'safe point'. Either what I hope will be a good gear placement, or a good hold/ledge/etc. Fair enough, except many routes either don't have a next 'safe point' or you can't see it from well below. It's these situations that I really struggle to leave my comfy ledge/hold/gear and launch up into the unknown.
I do loads of soloing, and of course I think entirely about the current moves, not what is coming up, or gear or how far I'm going to fall, etc. I'm sure I climb much better when I'm soloing!
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
if the route is within your ability grade wise, then you just need to be confident, and keep telling yourself, that if it's run out, it's because it's easy, other wise it would be graded harder. I put a lot of blind faith in guidebooks sometimes!
if the route is within your ability grade wise, then you just need to be confident, and keep telling yourself, that if it's run out, it's because it's easy, other wise it would be graded harder. I put a lot of blind faith in guidebooks sometimes!
In reply to climbingpixie:
I like a li'l song, too. Most popularly "up, down, turn around, please don't let me hit the ground, tonight I'd like to walk away, I just might fall, but there's a way".
Other than that, rationalise things - how far will I fall, how good's the gear, how hard are the moves, where's the next gear - easier said than done...
> (In reply to Nick Smith - UKC)
>
>I sing or hum stupid tunes (last week it was ‘under-cammed, over-cammed, wandering free’ to the tune of the Womble Song).
>
I like a li'l song, too. Most popularly "up, down, turn around, please don't let me hit the ground, tonight I'd like to walk away, I just might fall, but there's a way".
Other than that, rationalise things - how far will I fall, how good's the gear, how hard are the moves, where's the next gear - easier said than done...
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
I think the simple trick is to concentrate on the climbing and trying not to clog ones mind up with thoughts regarding distance from/quality of gear and consequences of the potential (unlikely?) fall.
it's all in the mind...
however, as someone else mentioned, the selection of routes is key. it's fairly silly to run something out on a long slab at the top-end of your grade if slabs aren't really your thing!
I think the simple trick is to concentrate on the climbing and trying not to clog ones mind up with thoughts regarding distance from/quality of gear and consequences of the potential (unlikely?) fall.
it's all in the mind...
however, as someone else mentioned, the selection of routes is key. it's fairly silly to run something out on a long slab at the top-end of your grade if slabs aren't really your thing!
In reply to Page: I have been trying to improve my slab climbing. Last week I did Fringe Benefit at Rivelin without huge problems, but then got completely terrified on Better Late Than Never which is supposed to be easier!
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
A trip to Pedriza might help
Huge runouts, but at least you know fir certain that the gear you can just make out 20m below your feet would definitely hold....
A trip to Pedriza might help
Huge runouts, but at least you know fir certain that the gear you can just make out 20m below your feet would definitely hold....
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
I just make one move at a time and try to stay calm, if the panic builds I hum or sing or crack lame jokes until it passes. If things start to get a bit out of hand I tend to laugh and it usually works out ok. When things get really serious I (usually due to a cockup on my part) I seem to get suddenly calm and detatched, the panic gets saved up for later. To be fair though I try to avoid obviously lethal situations as my coping strategy is clearly not very good.
I just make one move at a time and try to stay calm, if the panic builds I hum or sing or crack lame jokes until it passes. If things start to get a bit out of hand I tend to laugh and it usually works out ok. When things get really serious I (usually due to a cockup on my part) I seem to get suddenly calm and detatched, the panic gets saved up for later. To be fair though I try to avoid obviously lethal situations as my coping strategy is clearly not very good.
In reply to jkarran: Ah - yes. Another good point. Some sort of communication with your belayer can make a huge difference. Just talk to them about what it is like where you are, what you can see, what your options are.
An old friend and I used to have a small ritual for when we were frightened. It is unashamedly stolen from HHG.
Scared person: "It is at times like this I wish I'd listened to what my mother told me when I was little."
Belayer: "Why - what did she tell you?"
Scared person: "I don't know - I didn't listen."
It just used to release the tension.
An old friend and I used to have a small ritual for when we were frightened. It is unashamedly stolen from HHG.
Scared person: "It is at times like this I wish I'd listened to what my mother told me when I was little."
Belayer: "Why - what did she tell you?"
Scared person: "I don't know - I didn't listen."
It just used to release the tension.
In reply to AdrianC:
Agreed, but it doesn't work for everybody. The more I run it out the more I natter on about all sorts of things to anybody who's willing to listen. But one of my mates gets quieter and quieter the more focused/scared he gets.
> Ah - yes. Another good point. Some sort of communication with your belayer can make a huge difference. Just talk to them about what it is like where you are, what you can see, what your options are
Agreed, but it doesn't work for everybody. The more I run it out the more I natter on about all sorts of things to anybody who's willing to listen. But one of my mates gets quieter and quieter the more focused/scared he gets.
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
If I can read the rock and KNOW I can do the moves, then it doesn't bother me at all. Similarly, if I have the option to place gear, I sometimes choose not to. But it's all about having the choice when it matters. For this reason soloing scares me a lot!
I'd never choose to do run out routes which aren't my style of climbing if I can't read the rock beforehand. Things like the top of TPS - fine, easy, no problem. Vertical things like Millstone - no thanks, pass me as much gear as I can carry!
If I can read the rock and KNOW I can do the moves, then it doesn't bother me at all. Similarly, if I have the option to place gear, I sometimes choose not to. But it's all about having the choice when it matters. For this reason soloing scares me a lot!
I'd never choose to do run out routes which aren't my style of climbing if I can't read the rock beforehand. Things like the top of TPS - fine, easy, no problem. Vertical things like Millstone - no thanks, pass me as much gear as I can carry!
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: Nick, its the only way to go if you are a crap climber (like me), its why I can't do sport and why I find Toy so hard (and as you know, Insanity), Indian Face would be easier.
You just relax, think about the move and then do it pretending you are a couple of feet above the ground, s'easy.
You just relax, think about the move and then do it pretending you are a couple of feet above the ground, s'easy.
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
I've turned into a real gibberrer in my old age. The best piece of advice I've had was to plan ahead to the next rest, not the next clip or gear placement. It seems to work for me.
I've turned into a real gibberrer in my old age. The best piece of advice I've had was to plan ahead to the next rest, not the next clip or gear placement. It seems to work for me.
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
Depends where the run out is. If it's at the start before I've really got into the swing of things I normally becoming a jibbering wreck that may eventually commit, but then again may not.
If it's higher up, especially if I think I've done the crux, I just get on with it especially if I'm tired and just want the route over with. Not quite sure how I manage it but I just don't think - personally I wonder how sensible I am!
The other thing I find is I do a few moves, find out that it is indeed run out then have to keep on going as the fear of down climbing scares me more than the thought of being run out. Obviously this doesn't work so well when you can see it's going to be run out from the last bit of gear.
Depends where the run out is. If it's at the start before I've really got into the swing of things I normally becoming a jibbering wreck that may eventually commit, but then again may not.
If it's higher up, especially if I think I've done the crux, I just get on with it especially if I'm tired and just want the route over with. Not quite sure how I manage it but I just don't think - personally I wonder how sensible I am!
The other thing I find is I do a few moves, find out that it is indeed run out then have to keep on going as the fear of down climbing scares me more than the thought of being run out. Obviously this doesn't work so well when you can see it's going to be run out from the last bit of gear.
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
It’s interesting that no-one talks about (or has used, apparently) any of the formal fear-control methods which any climbing training book talks about. Like everyone says, you are aiming just to think about the moves, but how do you ensure that’s the only thing you keep thinking about; that’s the question.
I don’t have the answer btw.
jcm
It’s interesting that no-one talks about (or has used, apparently) any of the formal fear-control methods which any climbing training book talks about. Like everyone says, you are aiming just to think about the moves, but how do you ensure that’s the only thing you keep thinking about; that’s the question.
I don’t have the answer btw.
jcm
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
Hmm, I actually disagree with the folks who have said 'keep on going up' or 'just go for it'.
I think developing your downclimbing really helps you on dodgy run out cruxes.
I have found when climbing at my limit, it helps you can climb back down to the last ledge/good hold where you can regroup, think about the moves, and plan what you're going to do rather than just going for it. It's reassuring to know that you can downclimb to your last piece of gear if the crux goes pear shaped.
Clearly there are places where you will need to commit to moves above your gear, where this won't apply so much.
Also someone once said to me 'your best protection is your hands and feet' (talking particularly about overhung terrain, but applies across the board to a degree) meaning that if choosing between going forward a couple of moves more to good holds (providing you can read the moves ok), or hanging off bad holds trying desperately to fish in gear, trusting your hands and feet will keep you safer. Remembering that I find always helps me on necky run out cruxes...
Hmm, I actually disagree with the folks who have said 'keep on going up' or 'just go for it'.
I think developing your downclimbing really helps you on dodgy run out cruxes.
I have found when climbing at my limit, it helps you can climb back down to the last ledge/good hold where you can regroup, think about the moves, and plan what you're going to do rather than just going for it. It's reassuring to know that you can downclimb to your last piece of gear if the crux goes pear shaped.
Clearly there are places where you will need to commit to moves above your gear, where this won't apply so much.
Also someone once said to me 'your best protection is your hands and feet' (talking particularly about overhung terrain, but applies across the board to a degree) meaning that if choosing between going forward a couple of moves more to good holds (providing you can read the moves ok), or hanging off bad holds trying desperately to fish in gear, trusting your hands and feet will keep you safer. Remembering that I find always helps me on necky run out cruxes...
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: I don't get too bothered about run outs as long as I know I'm within my climbing limits. I'm more wary about getting complacent with run outs now - I had a very long one on Two Step Corner this winter and I realised at one point that I was exceptionally close to peeling off. One look down at the fall I'd take gave me the incentive I needed to stay in touch! That was my "mental trick".
In reply to plexiglass_nick:
This is very true but when climbing at my (lowly) limit there often comes a point of no return where I have to pass a tenuous sequence that would realistically be irreversable. I will often go to and reverse from that point several times. Once comitted, if falling from above that point is unacceptable then the only option is to quickly deal with the fear (when it arrives) and get on with the job in hand. There's time enough later to indulge in being scared.
jk
> I have found when climbing at my limit, it helps you can climb back down to the last ledge/good hold where you can regroup, think about the moves, and plan what you're going to do rather than just going for it. It's reassuring to know that you can downclimb to your last piece of gear if the crux goes pear shaped.
This is very true but when climbing at my (lowly) limit there often comes a point of no return where I have to pass a tenuous sequence that would realistically be irreversable. I will often go to and reverse from that point several times. Once comitted, if falling from above that point is unacceptable then the only option is to quickly deal with the fear (when it arrives) and get on with the job in hand. There's time enough later to indulge in being scared.
jk
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Hey Nick,
I'd agree with this, and would say that the way to do it--think about the moves only--is not to climb easier stuff as some people have suggested but actually to climb stuff that's right at your limit. Recently I've discovered that when I'm pushing myself physically, and putting all my effort into actually doing the moves, I'm not scared about the runouts. Like on BE with you--I would have expected to have been terrified when I discovered I couldn't reach that hold, but because I was immediately occupied with pulling as hard as I could on that poor crimp, I really wasn't even thinking about how far above the gear I was.
Maybe you could try a really hard sport route to start with, and see if you notice any difference between how you feel being well above a bolt on a route at your limit versus how you feel being that far above a bolt on something hard but not desperately hard?
alicia
> (In reply to Nick Smith - UKC)
>
> It’s interesting that no-one talks about (or has used, apparently) any of the formal fear-control methods which any climbing training book talks about. Like everyone says, you are aiming just to think about the moves, but how do you ensure that’s the only thing you keep thinking about; that’s the question.
>
> I don’t have the answer btw.
>
> jcm
>
> It’s interesting that no-one talks about (or has used, apparently) any of the formal fear-control methods which any climbing training book talks about. Like everyone says, you are aiming just to think about the moves, but how do you ensure that’s the only thing you keep thinking about; that’s the question.
>
> I don’t have the answer btw.
>
> jcm
Hey Nick,
I'd agree with this, and would say that the way to do it--think about the moves only--is not to climb easier stuff as some people have suggested but actually to climb stuff that's right at your limit. Recently I've discovered that when I'm pushing myself physically, and putting all my effort into actually doing the moves, I'm not scared about the runouts. Like on BE with you--I would have expected to have been terrified when I discovered I couldn't reach that hold, but because I was immediately occupied with pulling as hard as I could on that poor crimp, I really wasn't even thinking about how far above the gear I was.
Maybe you could try a really hard sport route to start with, and see if you notice any difference between how you feel being well above a bolt on a route at your limit versus how you feel being that far above a bolt on something hard but not desperately hard?
alicia
In reply to jkarran:
Yeah, this is exactly what I meant, I think I was still writing while you posted!
> (In reply to plexiglass_nick)
>
> [...]
>
> This is very true but when climbing at my (lowly) limit there often comes a point of no return where I have to pass a tenuous sequence that would realistically be irreversable. I will often go to and reverse from that point several times. Once comitted, if falling from above that point is unacceptable then the only option is to quickly deal with the fear (when it arrives) and get on with the job in hand. There's time enough later to indulge in being scared.
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> jk
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> [...]
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> This is very true but when climbing at my (lowly) limit there often comes a point of no return where I have to pass a tenuous sequence that would realistically be irreversable. I will often go to and reverse from that point several times. Once comitted, if falling from above that point is unacceptable then the only option is to quickly deal with the fear (when it arrives) and get on with the job in hand. There's time enough later to indulge in being scared.
>
> jk
Yeah, this is exactly what I meant, I think I was still writing while you posted!
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
Get out on some routes well within your grade - I mean REALLY easy stuff for you - maybe ones you've climbed before and really enjoyed.
Start running these routes out a bit - get halfway up the pitch and just push it a little bit more than you normally would. Keep practicing this and pushing it a little more til you start to enjoy the freedom of moving above your gear...
I taught myself to lead, but when I ended up on a lead course at the Brenin the instructor suggested to me that, if I felt confident in my abilities to climb the section above me, I should try not to spoil the pleasure of climbing it by stopping to put too much gear in.
(I'm not trying to imply that the PYB instructors suggested I stupidly endangered myself by encouraging me to excessively run out routes - far from it: they rightly suggested that it was my choice to assess risk and make my own decision based on that).
My point being that your confidence to climb above your gear is a skill/technique developed in the same way as any other; it may take a while to develope naturally, or you may need to do some specific training to encourage this.
I found that climbing on easier routes has allowed me to run out and thus enjoy the feeling of exposure that I get from this - from here the step to running out on harder and harder routes is a smaller one than if you just jump in at the top of your grade.
We learn best when we push our boundries and then reflect on the resulting experiences (I think the idea is not to push so far you are a gibbering wreck or otherwise incapable of reflection!). The more you do, the easier it will get, and the better and more confident you will be as a result.
Get out on some routes well within your grade - I mean REALLY easy stuff for you - maybe ones you've climbed before and really enjoyed.
Start running these routes out a bit - get halfway up the pitch and just push it a little bit more than you normally would. Keep practicing this and pushing it a little more til you start to enjoy the freedom of moving above your gear...
I taught myself to lead, but when I ended up on a lead course at the Brenin the instructor suggested to me that, if I felt confident in my abilities to climb the section above me, I should try not to spoil the pleasure of climbing it by stopping to put too much gear in.
(I'm not trying to imply that the PYB instructors suggested I stupidly endangered myself by encouraging me to excessively run out routes - far from it: they rightly suggested that it was my choice to assess risk and make my own decision based on that).
My point being that your confidence to climb above your gear is a skill/technique developed in the same way as any other; it may take a while to develope naturally, or you may need to do some specific training to encourage this.
I found that climbing on easier routes has allowed me to run out and thus enjoy the feeling of exposure that I get from this - from here the step to running out on harder and harder routes is a smaller one than if you just jump in at the top of your grade.
We learn best when we push our boundries and then reflect on the resulting experiences (I think the idea is not to push so far you are a gibbering wreck or otherwise incapable of reflection!). The more you do, the easier it will get, and the better and more confident you will be as a result.
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