UKC

Do you wear a hard or soft shell outer layer for winter climbing? Do soft shells do the business in Scotland?

I begin to come around to the idea of soft shell every so often only to have a crap weather day out where I end up being very thankful for a hard shell jacket. So have I answered my own question, soft shells have their place but are no replacement for a hard shell, or am I being unfair on soft shells?

In reply to Exile:

Hard shell jacket, soft shell trousers. Have found this works best *for me*. Others may differ.

In reply to Exile:

If it's not snowing, softshell top and bottoms

If it's snowing and it's cold then shoft bottoms, hard top.

If it's blowing a hoolie then hard top and bottoms

If it's really nasty, pub.

In reply to Exile: You're right - everything has its place. A hardshells place is at the bottom of your sack till you need it... Now have a very retro Patagucci Essenshell which is kind of a supped up windshirt with a hood and alround better and use that most of the time till I need my light hardshell which I have forgotten about until this moment...

In reply to Exile:
if it is snowing or raing or the wind is up and there is spin drift about soft shell doesn't work very well for me.

In reality soft shell is rarely what I want in scotland as if the wind isn't up then I'll often be more comfy in a fleece. Whilst if it is up there is usually spin drift and I end up getting damp, no matter how often I reproof the soft shell.

In reply to Exile:

If a nylon faced fleece counts as a 'soft shell' these days the soft shell for as long as possible. Waterproof ('hard shell' in marketing speak) for really windy or wet weather. I'm sure people make this sort of thing more complicated than it really is.

In reply to Exile:
Soft-shell? Dont know.

What do you call Swanndri, Slioch Ventile smock and Alpendale salopettes? Apart from really old.

(Works a treat btw. So do the Paramo freebies.)

In reply to Exile:
Normally wear goretex hardshell jacket and this winter tried out the Paramo Velez smock. Quite pleased with its waterproofness so far (haven't reproofed it yet in about 8 outings, with rain/snow on half of them), it is certainly more comfortable and I like the big pocket on the front. The hood is crap though, it's one of those stowed-in-the-collar and button on when needed, and it's not stiff enough. I believe there's another version of the Velez with a fixed hood.

In reply to Exile: I've got both and a windstopper thingy too. I feel the cold easily and don't like being cold so when on route (different walking in) I wear windstopper with softshell on top. Have a hardshell in my rucksack if I need it but I've never needed it yet.

In reply to Exile:

I used to swear by my soft shell, but in the middle of March 100mph winds and rain cam straight through my elderly waterproof and softshell beneath, and through my softshell trousers and filled my boots up with water. Not happy. should have gone to the pub. Bought a new paclite-type waterproof (to be worn only when essential) but still hate waterproof trousers - only if it's bucketing down. Snow and wind - still softshell

In reply to Exile:

I've been using a Rab Fusion Alpine jacket all winter and it seems to work well. It has waterproof shoulders, arms and hood (Event) and the body is soft shell. I wear softshell trousers.
In very snowy, spindrifty conditions the outer layers end up getting slightly damp. In reality this is NOT different to wearing 'hard shell' gear as I end up damp inside hard shell stuff with condensation inside the jacket/ sallies.
I haven't been out in conditions that make soft shell seem inadequate yet- the possibility I could think of would be a storm force rain front coming in at the end of the day. I don't doubt that hard shell would be superior in these types of days.
If it was to start really pishing down I would be making a bee- line for shelter anyway.

Davie

In reply to Exile: Rab vapour rise worked great for me skiing in andorra, weather was shite most of the time...tons of spindrift, snowing, windy..horrid weather...not damp atall and dead warm, with only a helly base layer underneath

In reply to Exile:

Montane super eight smock every time

In reply to Exile: i never bothered carrying a hardsheell at all this winter. i wore mixmaster pant, shelled microfibre jacket and hooded readymix shell on top. i was never cold or wet and i didn't get really sweaty like i would in a gore tex.

In reply to Exile:

Both!

I wear a soft shell (a good mountain hard wear one) on the walk in, then when I get to the route and gear up I put a hard shell (north face summit thing) over the top.

I find that the windproof and waterproof qualities combine very well to give really excellent overall protection - warm enough to hang around on windy belays and waterproof enough that a bit of snow's no problem.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Don't your legs get cold, wearing just a pant ?

In reply to Exile: Event hard shell, Ive decided that soft shell jackets are pish for scotland

In reply to Exile:

This review may be of help.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=430

In reply to Erik B:

Funny you should say that as I also have an event jacket having come to the same conclusions. Just wondering if I'd missed something, and I'm beginning to think I haven't.

Would general concensus be soft shells are good as long as the weather is?

In reply to Exile: Event is so good that I would just use that as a jacket all the time, soft shell trousers are good for scotland though

In reply to Erik B:
Aye. No matter what combinations I've tried I invariably end up with my Gore/Event hardshell on by the second pitch.

In reply to Exile:


I certainly think so.

In reply to Exile:


No - I really think it depends on how much you sweat.

In reply to Erik B:
Can you really tell the diff between xcr and event? Perhaps its cos my xcr was 2 layer and my event 3 layer, but the event doesn't seem any more breathable in pracice, in fact it often seems sweatier

In reply to SFM: I tihnk that a good softshell jacket like a Gamma Mx, Readymix or Mixmaster is equally good for scottish winter if the weather is gash, providing it is cold and gash rather than raining.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: the mixmaster jacket is gash, it is like a sponge in the wet and is not windproof, so totally useless for scotland

In reply to Erik B:

Maybe so, but young Tom does not go out in weather like you. He goes out in good weather.

In reply to Erik B: really? i've never had a probs with my troos. they are completely windproof. i would have exspected the same from the jacket. My ready mix is great and really water resistant.

In reply to Exile:

Well i can see this conversation coming to definate conclusion.

It all depends on your preference but have to say that the mixmaster stuff is generally accepted as the dogs for scottish winter climbing, everyone that I have talked to that owns one absoloutley loves it.

In reply to moo: i think the mixmaster jacket is pish for scottish winter and i hate it. the mixmaster trousers are excellent though

In reply to Erik B: fair enough. i'll stick with what i've got.

i take you just wear mm pants on your legs?

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

He probably doesn't put them on his head!

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: you are talking total bollocks, it simply will not keep you dry enough in dangerous conditions

scotland bad weather is usually around the freezing point, so its allmost allways bad and both snowing and raining.

you've had one wweek of good weather, please do not generalise

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I can confirm the Mix Master Jacket is not up to Scottish Conditions. I was nice and comfy when Erik was chittering in his Mix Master Jacket, he would have been better with a cardboard box.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: i think the mixmaster jacket is pish for scottish winter and i hate it. the mixmaster trousers are excellent though

i wear MM pants on my hands and BD super duper dry wet warm cold shcoeller goretex event sheepskin gloves round ma nads

In reply to Erik B:

Both gloves at once or can you get away with one therfore carrying a spare to change into if you get wet on the walk in?

Seriously though, thanks all for the comments, looks like I'll be staying with what I've got.

In reply to Exile: ask Donald M about his teuchter coo-skin tarzan loin cloth he wears on his ben walk-ins, christopher lambert would be proud

In reply to Erik B: Lol, I hope he only wears that on Ben walk-ins, the thought makes me feel faintly sick.

In reply to Erik B:

He's just sent me a DVD of some French lads climbing on the Ben, I'm glad there were no 'extras'!

In reply to alasdair19:

But you are also generalising, as loads of people - me included - used just Buffalo gear for Scottish winter climbing for years in all weathers before anyone had though of calling it "soft shell". In the past I generally haven't carried a shell jacket in Scotland for winter climbing, and won't necessarily again in the future.

In reply to alasdair19: i have climbed on the ben in fairly foul weather too... i was ok, but a bit damp in my readymix. my legs in mixmaster pants were fine. i was just suprised when eric said it was shit. i'm not disbeliving him.