UKC

Iv'e just read Mick Fowlers book, "on thin ice"
in it he talks about him and Pat Littlejohn descending 15 abseils using this method.
How is it done ?
Roy H

In reply to Roy Haythornthwite:

You put the rope through a screwgate on the ice screw but also tie a cord to one side of the rope, wrap it round the ice screw for as many turns as you can and then tie it off.
as you pull down on the rope (correct side)the cord wrapped round the ice screw should turn it and undo it.

In reply to Removed User:

PS. thats a very basic description.

They probably didn't know about V threads then.

In reply to Roy Haythornthwite:

If you use to drill 2 holes into the ice with ice screws forming a triangle then u can thread a bit of tat through this 'tunnel' so u dnt have to lose any screws! a bit complicated to explain

In reply to Roy Haythornthwite: you wrap a piece of cord or tape around the screw and attatch it to one side of the rope by a prusik. the screw needs to turn so you can't clip the rope to it with a biner, you just run it over the top.

the benefit over threads is that you don't leave tat.

In reply to Removed User:

What? An abseil off an ice screw isn't dodgy enough?
Yeah I understand the need to conserve them but yeesh!

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:
As I understand it these are generally 'oh heck I'm in trouble' last resort type tactics for long descents on ice that is to thin to get a reliable ablacov (excuse my poor spelling) thread where you can't afford to leave a screw behind. I'm no expert though as I've done my best to avoid ice climbing so far.

In reply to Kane: DINGLE????? must be!

In reply to Reach>Talent:


Ya Think? LOL
A bit more diplomatic than I would have framed it under the circumstances.
Those tales of epic retreats are harrowing.
Memories of reading some that took place on in the Denali area and whatnot. Scott's broken leg(s?) and dragging his arse out with Bonnington. Boardman and Tasker on Changabang.

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

"retreats", "descents", whatever i'm still biting my fingernails to the quick.

In
reply to Roy Haythornthwite:

Thanks everyone the reason why they used this method, is because they only had three ice screws, read the book
Roy H

In reply to Reach>Talent: they are also very unreliable unless you practice them lots can mean you get the rope stuck aswell as leaving the ice screw behind it doesnt unscrew

In reply to johnbale: Surely you'd just do the whole thing on vee threads these days? I'd trust one of those more than a single screw.

In reply to AdrianC:
suppose it depends how thick the ice is. i havent read the book but its on the list to read now i cant climb for a few months. the new winter skills book advises agains using retrevable screws unless v.practiced

In reply to johnbale: Well in this case the ice was thick enough to get a screw in - at least far enough to trust. I've abbed off some fairly scratty wee bits of ice on vee threads and I'm stuggling to think of circumstances where I'd feel compelled to go off a screw.

In reply to AdrianC:

watch the video (by petzl i think) about ice threads v. screws.

Albeit this was some thick water ice in Canada (i think), and not Scotland, the scres came out on top with a higher breaking strength than abalakov's

In reply to jimtheape: Sure - a screw may well be stronger but the point is that vee threads are strong enough (assuming all the usual stuff about ice quality.) They will withstand way more than one person's weight.

Given that both types of anchor are adequately strong then other factors enter the selection debate. For my money the complication of the retreivable screw process is a negative when compared with the simplicity of a vee thread.

In reply to Roy Haythornthwite: I suppose its an option if you're lacking ab tat to leave behind and have only your two prusik loops.

In reply to Roy Haythornthwite:

Lets remember that abseiling forces are very low.

15 abseils? I guess that constitutes "practice".

In reply to Roy Haythornthwite: I took a 50m fall trying to use retrievable ice screws on an abseil anchor! Wasn't too bad despite being 1200m up the face!

We climbed Ushba in the Caucasus but a storm blew up over night when we bivvied on the col between the two summits. As we couldn't go down the narrow snow arete we had climbed up due to the wind we decided to go down the 1300m west face. After some down climbing and abseiling through rocks we got into an ice slope of maybe 50 degrees. I'd seen Mick do a talk in Fort William just before and he described this retrievable ice screw thing so we thought we would give it a go!

We set it up and John went down first. He tried pulling the rope and it all appeared to work so I took out the back up and started abseiling. At the half way point on one of the ropes there was a tape marker which caught slightly in my abseil device - unfortunately this was the rope that unscrewed the ice screw and sure enough I retrieved the ice screw slightly before I was ready for it!

Mercifully John had tied in the bottom ends of our ropes to our third and last ice screw so, despite the 50m screaming slide down the ice, I ended up at the bottom jibbering away but still in one piece and not at the bottom of the face.

We decided to down climb for a bit. After a while the face ran out at a serac which we decided to abseil. We tried the retrievable ice screw thing again (after all practice makes perfect) and this time it did work well. However to minimise things that could go wrong we used just one rope so there was no knot to get in the way. This meant we didn't reach the bottom of the serac though and as John had both our ice screws at the top (he left one of our three screws behind after the excitement of my slide past him) all I could do was clip in to my ice axes and wait for John to send down the back up ice screw. However we were only 1000m above the floor by then so the exposure was not as bad.

Lots of down climbing and wee abseils, mercifully off rock anchors, got us eventually to the bottom of the face. It turned out to be a 1300m TD route that we descended. Nice route but a bit threatened by serac fall. Another night out and we got back to the tent in perfect weather the day after. A long walk down the day after that got us to the valley for two days rest and psychological recovery before heading to Bezingi for even bigger adventures!

Moral of the story? Take some tat and use ice threads!

Mike

In reply to Roy Haythornthwite:

Have you seen a retrievable ice axe abseil? The same book that talks about ice screw abseils also has a axe one!!

Dig a normal axe belay, then tie string to the spike of the axe and drive it behind the horizontal hammer, then tie string from the axe head to the hammer head, attach the string from the axe spike to one side of the rope, as you pull, the axe should pull out and pull the hammer after. Step out of the way of rope!

Its in this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Guide-Rope-Techniques-Constable/dp/1841193...

In reply to Mike Pescod: Great story Mike, told suitably deadpan, a la Tilman "a gentleman with a rifle came along, who seemed to want my shirt. It wasn't a very good shirt, but it was the only one I had, so I left, rapidly".

All the descriptions of this technique I have ever heard sound like a disaster waiting to happen, most probable to occur when you are tired/in extremis. Exactly when you are most likely to need it! Abolokovs seem better and better.

In reply to Roy Haythornthwite:

There's a good account of this and other retrievable techniques in The Complete Guide To Rope Techniques by Nigel Shepherd

In reply to RobScotland:

I think the moral of these stories is: Don't get in a situation where you need to do a retrievable-screw abseil....