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can somebody please tell me why if you get a quickdraw one end will be tight around the karaibiner(for the rope end, very good) but the other end is a big loop and the krab just spins all over the place. Why? Why not have to fixed ends? or at least one semi rigid end , tight sling but no rubber insert?
cheers, Ed
cheers, Ed
In reply to boothy:
so you can turn the karabiner round to face the other way, as is sometimes useful? (e.g. both gates open to same side, rather than one to one side and one to the other)
so you can turn the karabiner round to face the other way, as is sometimes useful? (e.g. both gates open to same side, rather than one to one side and one to the other)
In reply to boothy:
To prevent rope drag. The more sloppyness the better.
Can't understand why people favour sewn through slings other than for bolt clipping.
To prevent rope drag. The more sloppyness the better.
Can't understand why people favour sewn through slings other than for bolt clipping.
In reply to boothy:
If you keep the "rope end" taut, it's easier to handle the biner, and so therefore easier to clip the rope.
As for why the gear end is loose, I'm not sure. It maybe to prevent rope drag, or reduce the risk of gear being pulled out as you climb. Any ideas?
If you keep the "rope end" taut, it's easier to handle the biner, and so therefore easier to clip the rope.
As for why the gear end is loose, I'm not sure. It maybe to prevent rope drag, or reduce the risk of gear being pulled out as you climb. Any ideas?
In reply to boothy:
loose end always goes to the gear. that way the krab/draw can rotate as the rope pulls against it when you've moved past it. stops you from pulling bits of gear out and getting rope drag etc..
loose end always goes to the gear. that way the krab/draw can rotate as the rope pulls against it when you've moved past it. stops you from pulling bits of gear out and getting rope drag etc..
In reply to VisionSet: i'v got those little rubber retainers on mine, was getting pissed off when indoors with having to constantly spin the crab round before clipping. much happier now
In reply to boothy:
Tight end around the rope krab makes it easier to clip. If the gear end were fixed it's possible for the sling to lift and force the krab on the bolt to rotate into a position where it either forces the gate open or lays the gate on the bolt. Its also easier to rotate the krab on the gear end into a better position - gate facing away from anything it might catch on.
Tight end around the rope krab makes it easier to clip. If the gear end were fixed it's possible for the sling to lift and force the krab on the bolt to rotate into a position where it either forces the gate open or lays the gate on the bolt. Its also easier to rotate the krab on the gear end into a better position - gate facing away from anything it might catch on.
In reply to MttSnr:
Well this is what i mean. the gear end loop being loose won't prevent rope drag, the krab will move around on the bit of gear. making things longer prevents ropedrag.
You can change the direction the gate faces anyway even if they aren't loose.
It is just a pain when the end has spun round so you have to swap it in the gear first, especially if you are on something at you limit.
> As for why the gear end is loose, I'm not sure. It maybe to prevent rope drag, or reduce the risk of gear being pulled out as you climb. Any ideas?
Well this is what i mean. the gear end loop being loose won't prevent rope drag, the krab will move around on the bit of gear. making things longer prevents ropedrag.
You can change the direction the gate faces anyway even if they aren't loose.
It is just a pain when the end has spun round so you have to swap it in the gear first, especially if you are on something at you limit.
In reply to Wilbur: ahhh now i didnt know that I must check the kids quickdraws!
In reply to Gaz lord:
Like I say on bolts it doesn't matter, but for trad rope drag is the biggest evil and anything to lessen it comes first - in my book anyhow.
Like I say on bolts it doesn't matter, but for trad rope drag is the biggest evil and anything to lessen it comes first - in my book anyhow.
In reply to boothy:
It all contributes to lessen the effects of rope drag.
A loose rope biner on an open loop is probably the most effective solution. It goes without saying that the correct amount of extension must be employed.
> Well this is what i mean. the gear end loop being loose won't prevent rope drag, the krab will move around on the bit of gear. making things longer prevents ropedrag.
It all contributes to lessen the effects of rope drag.
A loose rope biner on an open loop is probably the most effective solution. It goes without saying that the correct amount of extension must be employed.
In reply to boothy:
Agh! I've run out of long quickdraws and this gear placement really needs extending to avoid rope drag. I know! What I'll do is replace the quickdraw with a sling. Now, good I've got the clip in the snapgate attached to the gear. All I need to do now is just remove this little elastic band so I can get the snapgate off the other end.
<grunt> <swear> <thud>
Agh! I've run out of long quickdraws and this gear placement really needs extending to avoid rope drag. I know! What I'll do is replace the quickdraw with a sling. Now, good I've got the clip in the snapgate attached to the gear. All I need to do now is just remove this little elastic band so I can get the snapgate off the other end.
<grunt> <swear> <thud>
In reply to boothy:
The loose end makes it easier for exending and it's also designed like that for a strength issue.
Krabs are designed to be loaded vertically, inline with the shaft of the krab. Having two ends rigid could potentially cause the krabs to cross load, significantly reducing it's strength and resulting in failure. I've a good friend who works for one of the climbing hardware companies and he's witnessed some scary tests where krabs have snapped really easily when both ends of the quickdraw have been held tightly with 'O' Rings or 'Strings'. However I think this is more apparent with sport (nylon) quickdraw slings as the draw itself is much stiffer.
With a fully rigid draws on trad you'd probably wiggle your wires out as well, which is why i use dyneema for the slings on my trad draws in anycase.
The loose end makes it easier for exending and it's also designed like that for a strength issue.
Krabs are designed to be loaded vertically, inline with the shaft of the krab. Having two ends rigid could potentially cause the krabs to cross load, significantly reducing it's strength and resulting in failure. I've a good friend who works for one of the climbing hardware companies and he's witnessed some scary tests where krabs have snapped really easily when both ends of the quickdraw have been held tightly with 'O' Rings or 'Strings'. However I think this is more apparent with sport (nylon) quickdraw slings as the draw itself is much stiffer.
With a fully rigid draws on trad you'd probably wiggle your wires out as well, which is why i use dyneema for the slings on my trad draws in anycase.
In fact 1st thing I do is cut those rubber things off. Less is more.
In reply to boothy:
It's not about rope drag, its about rope movement not flicking out your nuts. The more play there is in QD, the less likely it is to happen. Its not one of those things that happens all the time, but it can. Back in the day I had loads of those Petzl express slings - super-burly but definitely nuts would work loose with them far more often happens than with skinny floppy dyneema tape with only one end closed around a krab.
90% of the time it doesn't matter, but the other 10% is your gear falling out so who wants that?
BTW, when does your gear-end krab turn annoyingly around? Most people will either have them clipped to the harness gear loop or clipped to a runner? It might be the wrong way round when the second is cleaning a pitch, but scew 'em - they're on a top rope.
> Well this is what i mean. the gear end loop being loose won't prevent rope drag, the krab will move around on the bit of gear.
It's not about rope drag, its about rope movement not flicking out your nuts. The more play there is in QD, the less likely it is to happen. Its not one of those things that happens all the time, but it can. Back in the day I had loads of those Petzl express slings - super-burly but definitely nuts would work loose with them far more often happens than with skinny floppy dyneema tape with only one end closed around a krab.
90% of the time it doesn't matter, but the other 10% is your gear falling out so who wants that?
BTW, when does your gear-end krab turn annoyingly around? Most people will either have them clipped to the harness gear loop or clipped to a runner? It might be the wrong way round when the second is cleaning a pitch, but scew 'em - they're on a top rope.
In reply to VisionSet:
How does a krab being able move lessen rope drag? The length of the sling/qd will lessen the rope drag.
> It all contributes to lessen the effects of rope drag.
How does a krab being able move lessen rope drag? The length of the sling/qd will lessen the rope drag.
In reply to TobyA:
Yes, I think that's the consensus, rather the former causes the latter. Depends what you mean by rope drag I suppose. After you stop doing newbie zig zag stuff you use the word to just mean friction.
> It's not about rope drag, its about rope movement not flicking out your nuts.
Yes, I think that's the consensus, rather the former causes the latter. Depends what you mean by rope drag I suppose. After you stop doing newbie zig zag stuff you use the word to just mean friction.
In reply to Eric the Red:
This is a very good point...
> All I need to do now is just remove this little elastic band so I can get the snapgate off the other end.
This is a very good point...
In reply to VisionSet: OK - but I think of rope drag as meaning that feeling where you can hardly move upwards yourself. Gear can get flicked out by rope movement even when the route is very straight.
In reply to VisionSet: Bollocks - open loops mean you run the risk of the krab rotating and getting cross-loaded. Also, once you've frantically tried to put the krab back in place when you're pumped out of your mind and facing decking-out you'll see the light! Rubber bands make no difference to rope drag - the krab will move to suit the rope, so the sling can be restrained with no bother.
I use closed-loop draws wherever possible, and use rubber bands to stop the krab from rotating on longer, open slings (20/30cm). Also use tripled-up 60cm slings, but in this case I make an exception to allow for quick extension where I need it.
I use closed-loop draws wherever possible, and use rubber bands to stop the krab from rotating on longer, open slings (20/30cm). Also use tripled-up 60cm slings, but in this case I make an exception to allow for quick extension where I need it.
In reply to TobyA: Yes, yes we agree.
In reply to Sean_J:
Depends what you perceive the greatest risk.
Crossloading a krab these days isn't such an issue - they are stronger, but no, they won't take a factor 2. Of course you'll need some stats to show that open/unretained has a negative effect on safety... I think you perhaps need a little more experience under your belt, no?
Depends what you perceive the greatest risk.
Crossloading a krab these days isn't such an issue - they are stronger, but no, they won't take a factor 2. Of course you'll need some stats to show that open/unretained has a negative effect on safety... I think you perhaps need a little more experience under your belt, no?
In reply to VisionSet: 7kN is a typical cross-loading breaking strain for many new designs of krab, it might be even lower for some older designs - you want to take your chances, be my guest. I don't think you know me well enough to comment on how experienced I am, so please don't be so patronising in future.
In reply to Sean_J: Perhaps you should review the escalation of abuse.
In reply to CJD:
cant say too much more you have said it.
other people though...
If you will use single ropes on trad extend with slings to cut down rope drag, and have a selection of lengths of draws, I have short quick draws up to 4 foot slings as quick draws
or
use double ropes ( learn how to uses them properly if you have only encountered single ropes book on a touching rock or improvers course ) and you can then have a lot of shorter quick draws.
Krabs I tend to use wire gates, 'grey' for metal and 'red' for rope - an easy to get used to system.
> (In reply to boothy)
>
> so you can turn the karabiner round to face the other way, as is sometimes useful? (e.g. both gates open to same side, rather than one to one side and one to the other)
>
> so you can turn the karabiner round to face the other way, as is sometimes useful? (e.g. both gates open to same side, rather than one to one side and one to the other)
cant say too much more you have said it.
other people though...
If you will use single ropes on trad extend with slings to cut down rope drag, and have a selection of lengths of draws, I have short quick draws up to 4 foot slings as quick draws
or
use double ropes ( learn how to uses them properly if you have only encountered single ropes book on a touching rock or improvers course ) and you can then have a lot of shorter quick draws.
Krabs I tend to use wire gates, 'grey' for metal and 'red' for rope - an easy to get used to system.
In reply to VisionSet:
Could you elaborate on how exactly a krab held in place by a rubber would cause more rope drag than a identical situation without the rubber?
Could you elaborate on how exactly a krab held in place by a rubber would cause more rope drag than a identical situation without the rubber?
In reply to VisionSet:
I think you agreed that rope drag would be described at increased difficulty making progress.
(if this is the terminology you were referring to)
If this is correct then I can't see that you explained how the rubber would make a difference?
I think you agreed that rope drag would be described at increased difficulty making progress.
(if this is the terminology you were referring to)
If this is correct then I can't see that you explained how the rubber would make a difference?
In reply to karl walton:
No, but I agree my terminology was perhaps away from the accepted norm. I was really using the term rope drag to mean any friction in the system, ie the rope merely running through a krab can be enough to lift out a less than perfect placement. Afterall, even when properly extended and the rope runs in a straight line, the system can still be far from ideal.
No, but I agree my terminology was perhaps away from the accepted norm. I was really using the term rope drag to mean any friction in the system, ie the rope merely running through a krab can be enough to lift out a less than perfect placement. Afterall, even when properly extended and the rope runs in a straight line, the system can still be far from ideal.
In reply to VisionSet:
How can you take a factor 2 fall onto a quickdraw anyway?
Factor 2 = no runners.
> (In reply to Sean_J)
>
>
> Crossloading a krab these days isn't such an issue - they are stronger, but no, they won't take a factor 2.
How can you take a factor 2 fall onto a quickdraw anyway?
Factor 2 = no runners.
In reply to DaveHK: Well you have a point but a belay can incorporate a runner and a fall on to that will be virtually factor 2. Besides the point anyhow.
In reply to VisionSet:
I see, so it might be more accurate to have said that a loose krab would not reduce rope drag but reduce the amount of rope drag effects being transmitted to any gear?
I see, so it might be more accurate to have said that a loose krab would not reduce rope drag but reduce the amount of rope drag effects being transmitted to any gear?
In reply to karl walton:
mon dieu, is it just me or has this forum reached new heights of pedantry?
ha haaaa!
mon dieu, is it just me or has this forum reached new heights of pedantry?
ha haaaa!
In reply to CJD:
Aye, if you like petal.
Aye, if you like petal.
In reply to Sean_J:
>I don't think you know me well enough to comment on how experienced I am, so please don't be so patronising in future.
I don't think you know visionset well enough to know he has a lot more experience than you, going off your profile.
His seems to be current, not describing harder stuff he did in the past.
I gave away two fixed short QDs recently, preferring to let krabs float and align themselves, and surprise surprise, never had one cross load in a fall that I can remember.
>I don't think you know me well enough to comment on how experienced I am, so please don't be so patronising in future.
I don't think you know visionset well enough to know he has a lot more experience than you, going off your profile.
His seems to be current, not describing harder stuff he did in the past.
I gave away two fixed short QDs recently, preferring to let krabs float and align themselves, and surprise surprise, never had one cross load in a fall that I can remember.
In reply to boothy: It's to ALLOW movement, so the rope end won;t lift placed gear out of it's position...
Simple as that.
Nowt to do with rope drag, that is down to length of the 'sling' keeping the rope as straight as possible.
TTG
Simple as that.
Nowt to do with rope drag, that is down to length of the 'sling' keeping the rope as straight as possible.
TTG
In reply to VisionSet:
Great thread this. Pedantry in motion.
Actually that would be quite a good route name (unless it's already been used?).
: )
Great thread this. Pedantry in motion.
Actually that would be quite a good route name (unless it's already been used?).
: )
In reply to VisionSet:
OK, If I can refer you to my earlier question, 'could you please be specific about how a captive krab would increase rope drag? (rope drag being felt as increased load on the climber.)
OK, If I can refer you to my earlier question, 'could you please be specific about how a captive krab would increase rope drag? (rope drag being felt as increased load on the climber.)
In reply to karl walton:
No you'd probably not feel it. It is just a little extra friction on the runner.
No you'd probably not feel it. It is just a little extra friction on the runner.
In reply to VisionSet:
OK we could leave it there, but if you insist an effect exists even if it's consequences are small, I don't thinks it's unreasonable to ask you how such an effect comes about.
OK we could leave it there, but if you insist an effect exists even if it's consequences are small, I don't thinks it's unreasonable to ask you how such an effect comes about.
In reply to karl walton:
If a krab is allowed as much freedom of movement as possible then it stands to reason it will be constantly trying to reposition itself as a result of the forces imparted to it through the rope. Don't you think?
If a krab is allowed as much freedom of movement as possible then it stands to reason it will be constantly trying to reposition itself as a result of the forces imparted to it through the rope. Don't you think?
In reply to karl walton:
And although these forces maybe imperceptible to the climber they are of greater relevence to the poor nut you are trying not to drag out.
And although these forces maybe imperceptible to the climber they are of greater relevence to the poor nut you are trying not to drag out.
In reply to VisionSet:
Thanks
Thanks
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