UKC

Length of Quickdraw Dogbones

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apneaquatic 09 Jun 2007
I am going to buy my first set of quickdraws in a few weeks time, for sport and eventually want to use them for trad.

I am going to buy 12 in total, but I am unsure of the length of the dogbones. I have 2 options of length, 12cm or 18cm.

What would service me best for both sport and trad? 6 of each?
 Jack00 09 Jun 2007
In reply to apneaquatic: I would say 8 of the 12cm ones and 4 of the 18cm.
In reply to Jack00: I'd say more of the long ones if you're doing more trad, more of the short if doing sport. (I've given up buying 12cm QD's as they always seem to be the last ones I go for on my rack!)
 pottsworth 09 Jun 2007
In reply to apneaquatic:
I'd go for 10 short adn2 ling, then just get some linger dog bones for trad
 kevin k 09 Jun 2007
In reply to apneaquatic: i would go for 18cm ones as they are better for Trad, but it wont really make any difference for sport.
 VisionSet 09 Jun 2007
In reply to apneaquatic:

WTF is a dogbone? Surely I haven't been away that long.
 Jamie B 09 Jun 2007
In reply to apneaquatic:

Where are you planning on going sport climbing? A lot of venues will not need that many QDs, but you definately want them as short as you can get (ideally even shorter than 12cm) as lines are usually straight and drop potential is greater. Unfortunately these QDs turn out to be a lot less useful for trad, especially bigger/mountain routes which tend to wind about and feature placements off to one side or in recessed positions. I personally wouldn't do any long-ish trad route without at least four 60cm slings tripled as short/long extenders as these cover far more options. The skinny dyneema that Mammut sell is particulary good for this.

As an aside, why do so many folk nowadays seem to feel that leading on bolts is a neccessary pre-cursor to trad?
 fivestar 09 Jun 2007
In reply to Jamie B.:

Off topic I know, but:

Climbing wall/Top roping - bolted sport - trad

Correlates to level of actual/perceived risk I suppose.
The same progression also correlates with the amount of required gear.

Cheers

James
 Arjen 09 Jun 2007
In reply to Jamie B.: Surely 12 or 10 cm is not going to matter, falling those 4cm?

The sport I've done was not all that straight, and I would've used a couple of 60cm extenders if I would had them with me, the rope drag was sometimes quite annoying. Mind you, this was about F5+-F6a, not all that hard.

You can always take off the 12cm slings and replace them with 60cm ones for trad.
 kevin k 09 Jun 2007
In reply to fivestar: what!!!
 fivestar 09 Jun 2007
In reply to kevin k:

Apologies for what upon re-reading is a slightly garbled message. I was replying to Jamie:

>As an aside, why do so many folk nowadays seem to feel that leading on bolts is a necessary pre-cursor to trad?

I was commenting that the progression through Climbing wall/Top roping -> bolted sport -> trad carries an increasing level of risk. Also each progression requires an increasing amount of gear. Although it was not my experience, it clearly is possible to out and start climbing trad without participating in what some people see as lesser pursuits.

Shall we go back to talking about quickdraw bones now?

Cheers

James
 Jamie B 10 Jun 2007
In reply to fivestar:

As nobody has progressed the discussion of quickdraw dogbones, perhaps we can resume the explosion of the "sport is a useful progression" myth?

For what it's woth, I DONT see it as a lesser pursuit. I just feel that for many folk it promotes a more strength and performance dependant impression of climbing and does very little to teach trad skills. Thesed are best learnt through trad climbing, funnily enough.
apneaquatic 11 Jun 2007
In reply to Jamie B.:

I see leading sport as a precursor to trad because I am terrified of leading on fixed pro let alone placed pro.

Actually come to think of it, I am terrified of toproping =(

Still need to get rid of that mental block that prevents me from giving it my all.
 Jamie B 11 Jun 2007
In reply to apneaquatic:

What is scaring you? Maybe you need to second more?
 fivestar 11 Jun 2007
In reply to Jamie B.:
>perhaps we can resume the explosion of the "sport is a useful progression" myth?

IMHO, I would say sport climbning does aid progression towards leadin trad. Leadin on bolts outside and at the climbing wall has made me a lot more confident climbing above my gear.

Cheers

James

 TobyA 11 Jun 2007
In reply to Arjen:
> (In reply to Jamie B.) Surely 12 or 10 cm is not going to matter, falling those 4cm?

Of course it doesn't really matter, it's just that when you are about to fall off it FEELS like it is going to matter.
apneaquatic 11 Jun 2007
In reply to apneaquatic:

It doesnt exactly scare me, it just prevents me from reaching that little bit extra, or continuing pumped, or giving it my all.

I guess its not exactly the fear of falling, but the fear of falling awkward, like upside down or swinging onto something
 freelancer_85 11 Jun 2007
In reply to apneaquatic:

heh, that's what makes climbing so great though. Climbing at your mental (and sometimes physical) limits, and sometimes breaking through what you thought they were and surprising (and scaring) yourself.

Josh.
 Jamie B 12 Jun 2007
In reply to apneaquatic:

If you're getting pumped you're probably climbing too steeply and at too high a grade. Learn the art of gear placement on more ambient terrain and you will have more in hand when you feel the need to push the boat out. A "pyramid2 approach (muchos mileage at lower grades) also does much more for you movement skills than folk appreciate.

Sport teaches people that climbing is all about getting pumped and climbing at your physical limit, which is surely a fallacy.
 pishmishy 12 Jun 2007
In reply to fivestar:

> I was commenting that the progression through Climbing wall/Top roping -> bolted sport -> trad carries an increasing level of risk. Also each progression requires an increasing amount of gear.

The increasing amount of gear is why I'm following this line of progression. I want to be climbing some easy trad routes but I can't afford to buy a full rack straight away.

I've found top roping, leading indoors and sport to be completely different animals and I'm just enjoying them for what they are as I build up my gear.
 Jamie B 12 Jun 2007
In reply to pishmishy:

> I want to be climbing some easy trad routes but I can't afford to buy a full rack straight away.

Why not find some tooled-up compadres to climb with and learn from? When I were a lad this was the standard route into climbing, everyone seems to want to fast-track these days.

Don't buy the poverty argument either; I was a mature student existing on five grand a year when I bought mine; it was sufficiently important to me.
 jkarran 12 Jun 2007
In reply to apneaquatic:

If you actually plan to get into trad climbing then get long extenders and don't buy stitched closed dogbone types.

Personally I'd get a bundle of 24 cheap wiregates (DMM Prowire is going cheap and is excelent) and a bunch of 60cm 8mm slings and use them doubled or tripled.

Or 6 18cm quickdraws and 6 of the above mentioned extenders.

jk
 davidwright 12 Jun 2007
In reply to Jamie B.:
> (In reply to fivestar)
>
> As nobody has progressed the discussion of quickdraw dogbones, perhaps we can resume the explosion of the "sport is a useful progression" myth?
>

The 18cm ones for the lot and look for some even longer if you are planing on moving on to trad.

> For what it's woth, I DONT see it as a lesser pursuit. I just feel that for many folk it promotes a more strength and performance dependant impression of climbing and does very little to teach trad skills. Thesed are best learnt through trad climbing, funnily enough.

Quite agree sport tends to foster a feeling that if you are not climbing hard you are not climbing and a feeling that falling is both safe and almost required and a gung ho attitude (all realistic and useful in the context of sport climbing) those attitudes then become dangerous when moved across to trad espetialy combined with the strengh and technique to get them into trouble but without the skills needed to get them out of it.

A much better progression is climbing wall/second - trad lead- bolted sport that way you learn the trad skills in safeish positions while you are still gaining both strength and technique and the problem crossing to sport is to accept that you can be gung ho and don't have to be in control the way you are on a trad climb.



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