UKC

Whilst Alping in Switzerland I noticed some locals tying in with an interesting knot.

Tie an overhand knot loosely and thread up through harness, thread end of rope through overhand knot and then tie half a double fishermans knot. Neat and tidy.... any good?

Discuss!

In reply to dave wearing: sounds more like a bowline or double/rethreaded bowline to me...

In reply to north country boy:

No, have seen a similar knot in old books described as the "end mans knot". Definately not a bowline.

A picture paints a thousand words. Bit hard to describe but it's a combination of overhand and fishermans knot.

In reply to dave wearing:

interesting just tried it, kind of an overhand threaded back through itself like you would with a fig8 with a fishermans as a stoper

In reply to dave wearing:

Essentially half a fig 8 with a double stopper. So if you believe that 'less is more' .....

In reply to dave wearing:
Didn't that used to be called a "three quarters" knot? I've never tried it - I can't really think of any advantages over a fig-8. I'd guess it would be a bugger to untie after a fall. Any idea why the Swiss locals like it?

In reply to dave wearing: I think that knot is in Nigel Shepards book-he says it is used in NZ and aus, but I couldn't see any sign of it when I was there. It seems tidy but doesn't strike me as the most secure knot...
Sam

In reply to dave wearing:

Thanks folks. I thought it was neat but might be difficult to untie after being loaded. As to safety us old uns used to, before the Euro-Death knot, ab off a double fishermans, so I would think this knot being much the same would be okay.

In reply to dave wearing: The overhand knot for abseiling is tied with both ends together, and the forces on the knot when weighted tend to open it out a little, which is presumably why it's not hard to untie. A rethreaded overhand knot for tying in would be loaded in a different way, and although i haven't tried it, I would imagine it would lock tight on itself and be harder to untie after a fall than a fig 8.

In reply to dave wearing:

hmmm. Is that like the Welsh Not?
uh oh. j/k

edit: omg, double bass?! coooooooooooool.
bloody instrument is too bleedin expensive! outrage!
cool though (snaps fingers in hepcat fashion) ; )

In reply to dave wearing: I'm sure I've seen this somewhere, the pink Langmuir bible? I think it's good for using round someones waist when belaying people up a scrambling step as it's easy to move the overhand knot to adjust the size of the waist loop for different people.

In reply to Aly: And a totally un-scientific test with a piece of tat says that it's not too hard to undo after loading either.

In reply to Aly:


Well, its in the new ML handbook for sure, included for the security on steep ground stuff.

Its meant to be easy and quick to adjust when roping a party up a step, and OK if you have someone competant at the bottom.

My own preferance would be a simple overhand loop, its easier for novice members of a party to see how that adjusts.

In reply to dave wearing: IT's a three quarter fishermans knot, which is just as good as the double figure of eight in climbing - I've used it before myself Dave.

In reply to dave wearing:

Hung off my stairs last night to try it. It did untie easily to my suprise. It is a bit similar to the "slippery hitch" in Langmuir, only it's threaded through the overhand before tying the half double fishermans. In the end I think the fig eight is still a better bet as the rope doesn't go through any tight bends.

In reply to dave wearing:
where did they tie the stopper knot (half fishermans)? if this was around the live rope rather than the loop rope then what you see was a three quater fishermans as mentioned above

there aren't necessarily any advantages/disadvantages although i dont know how it effects rope strength but if you know that along with a bowline and rethreaded fig 8 it allows you to potentially avoid embarassement! Read on:

When i started climbing i would quite often forget to tie a fig 8 before putting the rope through my harness. which ive seen other people do and as with me used to resort in a sigh/huph and taking it out to start again. then i though well, its slightly novice like to forget the fig 8 so i started to tie a bowline instead - now i use it all the time but what if you were intending to use a rethreaded fig 8 to tie in but tied the fig 8 wrong? threaded through harness you realise youve tied an overhand?? How about a 3/4 fishermans then? As said - avoids embarrasment albeit in a minor sense.

Your thoughts?

Oh and btw the adjustable waist loop is something different again. here the dead end isnt threaded through the fig 8/overhand. its just to stop the loop getting too tight around your waist
Shaun

In reply to ShaunMc:

Ta for all that. Difficult to describe these things without a picture. Interesting how these continental type do things differently from us Brits.

In reply to above:
Here is a URLink to an image (there are others; this was discussed in RC.com):
www.rescuedynamics.ca/articles/knots/Knots.htm
--it's called, among other things, the Swami loop there (which I think might
have been the name used in an old ('74?) Chouinard catalogue).

To make a more easily untied like loopknot, bring the end in in the following way,
in reference to 1st step's image:
come in from top (North, shall we say; or 12:00?) and cross UNDER-over-over,
then turn West/left and tie off with the Strangle knot (half-a-Grapevine).

One can use a similar tactic with a Fig.8 pre-knot. In reference to the Fig.8 loopknot
shown immediately above the Swami loop,
form a Fig.8 (single strand) as shown for the twin strands on the site;
reeve the end through the harness, and bring the end back into the Fig.8 parallel
with itself and on the lower side (as oriented in the image);
then tuck the end down through the space between the mainline and the curve of the
Fig.8 immediately below it (the part that curves around the mainline, i.e.).

This knot alone should hold, but of course you'll want to tie off the end with the Strangle knot,
or tuck it back out between the two legs of the eye. In either case, the knot should remain
fairly easy to untie after loading.

*kN*

In reply to knudeNoggin:


Umm, I think I've got that! Ta.

The knot that you describe is taught on the MIA syllabus as a good way of tieing clients into the the middle of a rope on a short roping day.

If a second overhand knot is tied above the tie in knot an isolation loop is created to avoid the client being pulled around.

I also use it for personal glacier travel in the Alps etc as it is quick and easy.

Rob

In reply to dave wearing:
I should've stated that the improvement I verbally sketched re the Swami Loopknot begins
with a "Honda Knot", and can be seen here: [url]www.troop7.org/Knots/Lariat.html[/url]

Bringing the end back in through the Overhand knot in this way will render the knot
more easily untied after loading.
(And from this same Honda Knot start, one can simply then take the end around the mainline
as with a Bowline and tuck it back out beside itself (the rabbit-around-tree maneuvre);
and to added security, strength(?), and ease of untying for this, then take the end
around the eye legs and tuck it back again (now in opposite/original direction),
putting three diameters of rope into the initial Overhand.)

*kN*