This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
I have received an email from someone who has requested that ROCKFAX take action against the route named Myra Hindley at Kilnsey. This person has approach both myself and the YMC guidebook editor and suggested that we give the first ascensionist - Steve Roberts - the chance to re-name the route. If he refuses then the route should be re-named for him.
Whilst ROCKFAX aren't keen on publishing material that glorifies particularly nasty murderers, we also like to portray routes as they were climbed and named.
The question is should guidebook editors censor certain names and if so where is the line?
Alan
Whilst ROCKFAX aren't keen on publishing material that glorifies particularly nasty murderers, we also like to portray routes as they were climbed and named.
The question is should guidebook editors censor certain names and if so where is the line?
Alan
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX: Hell no. If people don't like the name then don't climb the route.
Draw the line at offensive language. i.e. f*cking bastard HVS ect. But Myra Hindley is just a name. There may well be several people with that name.
Draw the line at offensive language. i.e. f*cking bastard HVS ect. But Myra Hindley is just a name. There may well be several people with that name.
In reply to Keith_D:
Exactly.
A name's a name. A noun, not a statement of the FA's muderous persuasions.
Exactly.
A name's a name. A noun, not a statement of the FA's muderous persuasions.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
back to John's dilemma over Zyklon B.
Let it stand, we know who climbed it - let him justify and explain his reasons.
or do we want our guidebooks to be written by Baronesses Cox and Young?
back to John's dilemma over Zyklon B.
Let it stand, we know who climbed it - let him justify and explain his reasons.
or do we want our guidebooks to be written by Baronesses Cox and Young?
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
Definitely no censorship!
Maybe a few letters could be exchanged with asterisks in some cases.
> The question is should guidebook editors censor certain names and if so where is the line?
Definitely no censorship!
Maybe a few letters could be exchanged with asterisks in some cases.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX: I say no censorship.If offensive route names are used it'll reflect badly on the person applying the name (1st ascencionistor whoever) and that's enough.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX: To flog the horse some more. I take it a route say called Dr. Crippen would be OK, so would Dr. Shipman be OK too?
What about Jack the Ripper. There must be a route called that somewhere?
What about Jack the Ripper. There must be a route called that somewhere?
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
Let it stand.
But I would like to know why he named it Myra Hindley?
Let it stand.
But I would like to know why he named it Myra Hindley?
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
There is nothing in the name which either glorifies her or what she did. You can't rename routes just because someone might, in their own mind, take some inferrence which is not in the name. We had this debate at length on ZB not so long ago.
There is nothing in the name which either glorifies her or what she did. You can't rename routes just because someone might, in their own mind, take some inferrence which is not in the name. We had this debate at length on ZB not so long ago.
In reply to John Rushby: That could be interesting.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
She won't be the only person in this world with that name, so do other people then have to change their name to prevent association with her? I don't think so. What i'm trying to say is, would the people who objected about the route, be disgusted/offended/whatever if they met someone with the same name?
It's only a route name, not worth the hassle.
She won't be the only person in this world with that name, so do other people then have to change their name to prevent association with her? I don't think so. What i'm trying to say is, would the people who objected about the route, be disgusted/offended/whatever if they met someone with the same name?
It's only a route name, not worth the hassle.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
Yes seems a bit silly to change it. Names reflect on the namer ... they can regret at their leisure. In some ways I'm not sure even the first ascentionist should have the option to change the name after the event: imagine how much hassle that would cause you if that became prevalent. Like having a permanent 'delete' option on any posts on this forum.
Wasn't this topic done to death re Zylon B a while back? Not that I read it all - eyes glazed over very quickly and had to find some drying paint.
Yes seems a bit silly to change it. Names reflect on the namer ... they can regret at their leisure. In some ways I'm not sure even the first ascentionist should have the option to change the name after the event: imagine how much hassle that would cause you if that became prevalent. Like having a permanent 'delete' option on any posts on this forum.
Wasn't this topic done to death re Zylon B a while back? Not that I read it all - eyes glazed over very quickly and had to find some drying paint.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
No, to my mind there is nothing offensive about naming a route after Myra Hindley. Would the name of the route be offensive to the victims or their families? I very much doubt it. It is not glorifying Hindley. In fact, if the route is particularly hard, it could be a reasonably serious comment and not meant light-heartedly. I do not see the harm in this.
Didn't we have this debate about a route named after the gas used by the Germans in the gas chambers - Zyclon B or whatever it is called. I think the general feeling in that case was that to rename the route is too PC and unwarranted.
No, to my mind there is nothing offensive about naming a route after Myra Hindley. Would the name of the route be offensive to the victims or their families? I very much doubt it. It is not glorifying Hindley. In fact, if the route is particularly hard, it could be a reasonably serious comment and not meant light-heartedly. I do not see the harm in this.
Didn't we have this debate about a route named after the gas used by the Germans in the gas chambers - Zyclon B or whatever it is called. I think the general feeling in that case was that to rename the route is too PC and unwarranted.
In Avon a few years back, Matt Ward did a route called Shirley Banks is Still Missing. That was way more topical at the time, and pretty insensitive in my book, but the name stood. What possible objection can there be to Myra Hindley? We already have Der Fuhrer and Il Duce, and probably a Yorkshire Ripper for all I know. Whoever's objecting should get out more.
Johnhenry
Johnhenry
No way, absolutely no way. It's censorship of the most extreme variety. For a start, repeating a name in no way condones the actions of the perpetrator. And secondly, where do you stop? Hitler's Buttock, Final Solution, Barbarossa, Mein Kampf? Should they be changed? Reading these names never made me want to go out and exterminate an eastern European race. They are cultural references, and are used as names because they exist in our culture.
If the person who wanted the name changed suffered a direct loss at the hands of Myra Hyndley, then this is tragic, but how can changing this route name change that?
If the person who wanted the name changed suffered a direct loss at the hands of Myra Hyndley, then this is tragic, but how can changing this route name change that?
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX: Censorship is immoral. End of story. Glorification is another matter and stating facts or naming names should not be confused with glorifying the acts which those persons or facts are associated. Consider also 'Swastika' a route on the Etive Slabs. Most people associate the Swastika with Hitler's Nazi party and not the ancient religious symbol that they copied. One (someone who likes a safe world with lots of censorship) could argue that naming a route Swastika was glorifying the atrocities of the Nazis in the 2nd World War.
I say take a stand and print it. I would be offended if you didn't - I took umbridge at the censorship of 'Third Burglar' in the Froggatt guide, purely for anti-censorship reasons.
If we sweep everything under the carpet and don't talk about the bad things in life as well as the good, then we'll end up in a world that I refuse to be part of.
I'll stand down from my soap box now, but If the first ascentionist does decide to change the route name, perhaps he should call it along the lines of "Everything in (x's*) garden is rosy, don't rock his fence or he'll cry."
* x being the person suggesting the censorship.
I say take a stand and print it. I would be offended if you didn't - I took umbridge at the censorship of 'Third Burglar' in the Froggatt guide, purely for anti-censorship reasons.
If we sweep everything under the carpet and don't talk about the bad things in life as well as the good, then we'll end up in a world that I refuse to be part of.
I'll stand down from my soap box now, but If the first ascentionist does decide to change the route name, perhaps he should call it along the lines of "Everything in (x's*) garden is rosy, don't rock his fence or he'll cry."
* x being the person suggesting the censorship.
In reply to Keith_D:
theres a route called The Yorkshire Ripper @ Kilnsey as well. Let it stand.
theres a route called The Yorkshire Ripper @ Kilnsey as well. Let it stand.
In reply to Matt:
Are they on Serial Killer slab.?
> (In reply to Keith_D)
> theres a route called The Yorkshire Ripper @ Kilnsey as well. Let it stand.
> theres a route called The Yorkshire Ripper @ Kilnsey as well. Let it stand.
Are they on Serial Killer slab.?
In reply to SornaBob:
Firstly i would point out that i agree with the last posting " its only a route name", however as the first ascentionist i feel its important i reply.
The route was named Myra Hindly to continue a theme created by the "Yorkshire Ripper" on the same crag. It was never named in any attempt to glorify or promote the actions of that individual. I can understand with recent events that this could be a hot subject and therefore being sensitive to this would lose no sleep if the Rockfax Guide chooses to change the name.
Given the route is next to " Little Ernie" i suggest the Viz theme and lets call it " Big Verne". However i would point out that route names stick ( see Urgent action the original name V Under the Thumb)so what ever the guide calls it will be hard to shake the original name.
I hope that this draws this matter to a conclusion and that Rockfax can now make a descion as they see best, lets not spend any more time on this issue, i am sure we all have better things to do!, like climbing the routes!!
Firstly i would point out that i agree with the last posting " its only a route name", however as the first ascentionist i feel its important i reply.
The route was named Myra Hindly to continue a theme created by the "Yorkshire Ripper" on the same crag. It was never named in any attempt to glorify or promote the actions of that individual. I can understand with recent events that this could be a hot subject and therefore being sensitive to this would lose no sleep if the Rockfax Guide chooses to change the name.
Given the route is next to " Little Ernie" i suggest the Viz theme and lets call it " Big Verne". However i would point out that route names stick ( see Urgent action the original name V Under the Thumb)so what ever the guide calls it will be hard to shake the original name.
I hope that this draws this matter to a conclusion and that Rockfax can now make a descion as they see best, lets not spend any more time on this issue, i am sure we all have better things to do!, like climbing the routes!!
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX: let it stand...censorship is bad
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX: No, for the reasons everyone else is mentioning.
In reply to Matt:
There's also a route by Martin Berzins called the Hungerford Massacre.......perhaps glorifying the multiple-murderer Michael Ryan (or the mad bolter Mick Ryan)....
Lets have a BMC commitee made up of "concerened" citizens to vet all route names.....who would then have a vote on the manes acceptance or rejection.
If fact yes, if you climb a new route, you must submit your route name to the commiteee. Six months later you will either get a letter accepting it or rejecting it. If rejected the commitee will supply some alternative names.
I propose that this commitee be funded by a small tax on all guidebooks and by income from the BMC New Router Licence.
Mick
There's also a route by Martin Berzins called the Hungerford Massacre.......perhaps glorifying the multiple-murderer Michael Ryan (or the mad bolter Mick Ryan)....
Lets have a BMC commitee made up of "concerened" citizens to vet all route names.....who would then have a vote on the manes acceptance or rejection.
If fact yes, if you climb a new route, you must submit your route name to the commiteee. Six months later you will either get a letter accepting it or rejecting it. If rejected the commitee will supply some alternative names.
I propose that this commitee be funded by a small tax on all guidebooks and by income from the BMC New Router Licence.
Mick
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
Well, not one for sour grapes BUT:
A guidebook editor once renamed one of my routes without consulting me.
Why? Because totally unknown to us the first ascentionists, the name of the route contained the surname of the owners of the quarry, and he said they would see it as inciting people to climb on their property (it was called Let's go Play at the Adams' and was in a quarry with access issues).
The name came from a book title and was no more sinister than that. I was absolutely furious and he offered no other reason, which I think is pathetic.
Needless to say, I disagree with route name censorship unless personal distress is caused.
Moan over.
Well, not one for sour grapes BUT:
A guidebook editor once renamed one of my routes without consulting me.
Why? Because totally unknown to us the first ascentionists, the name of the route contained the surname of the owners of the quarry, and he said they would see it as inciting people to climb on their property (it was called Let's go Play at the Adams' and was in a quarry with access issues).
The name came from a book title and was no more sinister than that. I was absolutely furious and he offered no other reason, which I think is pathetic.
Needless to say, I disagree with route name censorship unless personal distress is caused.
Moan over.
In reply to steve Roberts:
Thanks to Steve for his contribution. You are obviously not a regular here though since this is exactly the sort of stuff that people love talking about, although the discussions tend to be better when they are less one-sided!
Before I posted this I was firmly convinced that the route name should stand because a) I didn't feel it glorified anyone and b) there are hundreds of other routes out there that could cross similar boundaries, especially if you stray into issues of race, religion and gender politics.
I shall endeavour to get a contribution from the objector but I doubt whether he will want to get involved.
Alan
Thanks to Steve for his contribution. You are obviously not a regular here though since this is exactly the sort of stuff that people love talking about, although the discussions tend to be better when they are less one-sided!
Before I posted this I was firmly convinced that the route name should stand because a) I didn't feel it glorified anyone and b) there are hundreds of other routes out there that could cross similar boundaries, especially if you stray into issues of race, religion and gender politics.
I shall endeavour to get a contribution from the objector but I doubt whether he will want to get involved.
Alan
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
Keep it, it shows real imagination by the first asectionist to name the route after someone convicted of rapeing, mutilating and murdering young people for their own pleasure. Perhaps their next new route could be called Ian Huntley!!
The censorship thing is difficult, but perhaps a comment that the FA was asked but declined to change the name.
Keep it, it shows real imagination by the first asectionist to name the route after someone convicted of rapeing, mutilating and murdering young people for their own pleasure. Perhaps their next new route could be called Ian Huntley!!
The censorship thing is difficult, but perhaps a comment that the FA was asked but declined to change the name.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
I agree with the concensus that there should be no censorship of route names. Despite what people have said on this thread about obscene names being less/unacceptable, even the stuffy old SMC have been happy (or at least prepared) to include F*ck Face (an old Dougal Haston route, if I recall correctly) at Dunkeld in the Highland Outcrops guide, and Apeshit in Northeast Outcrops.
I agree with the concensus that there should be no censorship of route names. Despite what people have said on this thread about obscene names being less/unacceptable, even the stuffy old SMC have been happy (or at least prepared) to include F*ck Face (an old Dougal Haston route, if I recall correctly) at Dunkeld in the Highland Outcrops guide, and Apeshit in Northeast Outcrops.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
Generally, I'd say no censorship, but there is a route in Parrock Quarry in the Lakes, the name of which I personally find offensive and just sh*t. Ultimately, what you do or don't find offensive is subjective, certainly many of Readhead's route names seem in bad taste, but they're part of history, so I don't think they should be changed. A sh*it route name is a Sh*t route name - Under the Thumb is a great route name, whilst 'Urgent Action' is, well Sh*t. Maybe we should censor crap names?
Generally, I'd say no censorship, but there is a route in Parrock Quarry in the Lakes, the name of which I personally find offensive and just sh*t. Ultimately, what you do or don't find offensive is subjective, certainly many of Readhead's route names seem in bad taste, but they're part of history, so I don't think they should be changed. A sh*it route name is a Sh*t route name - Under the Thumb is a great route name, whilst 'Urgent Action' is, well Sh*t. Maybe we should censor crap names?
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
Some years ago I visited the Gunks in New York state. One day a band of students carrying placards began walking up and down the track underneath the main cliff. It turned out that they were protesting against the route "Shockley's Ceiling" a classic 5.7 (or thereabouts). This is the route on which the nude vulgarian photograph was taken.
They were not protesting about the name as such but against Bill Shockley himself.
Bill Shockley was one of the team that invented the transistor but was also a climber and put up the afore mentioned route. Later in life he ventured from micro-electronics and dabbled in eugenics - the science of manipulating the future population by selective breeding etc. It was this that the students were really protesting about. But who would have thought that a 40 year old route name would be the source of political dissent?
On the subject of Myra Hyndley, my wife is from Saddleworth and I am reasonably certain that the name would not be well received there.
Bob
Some years ago I visited the Gunks in New York state. One day a band of students carrying placards began walking up and down the track underneath the main cliff. It turned out that they were protesting against the route "Shockley's Ceiling" a classic 5.7 (or thereabouts). This is the route on which the nude vulgarian photograph was taken.
They were not protesting about the name as such but against Bill Shockley himself.
Bill Shockley was one of the team that invented the transistor but was also a climber and put up the afore mentioned route. Later in life he ventured from micro-electronics and dabbled in eugenics - the science of manipulating the future population by selective breeding etc. It was this that the students were really protesting about. But who would have thought that a 40 year old route name would be the source of political dissent?
On the subject of Myra Hyndley, my wife is from Saddleworth and I am reasonably certain that the name would not be well received there.
Bob
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
I hope so. It would be interesting to see his/her side of the discussion.
Whilst I find some route names distasteful, and had recently considered censoring some overtly racist route names in a forthcoming guidebook. I am now convinced that the guidebook author or editor should let all route names stand (within very broad limits), particularly if the first ascensionists name is right next to the route name.
I think some comment next to the offending name, at least in this case, be justified.
Mick
> I shall endeavour to get a contribution from the objector.
I hope so. It would be interesting to see his/her side of the discussion.
Whilst I find some route names distasteful, and had recently considered censoring some overtly racist route names in a forthcoming guidebook. I am now convinced that the guidebook author or editor should let all route names stand (within very broad limits), particularly if the first ascensionists name is right next to the route name.
I think some comment next to the offending name, at least in this case, be justified.
Mick
In reply to Bob:
Did they want his Nobel Prize removed as well?
I'd never connected the climb with him before. You can't say he didn't enjoy a full and rounded life
Did they want his Nobel Prize removed as well?
I'd never connected the climb with him before. You can't say he didn't enjoy a full and rounded life
In reply to Alan James:
Keep it, censorship would be wrong and pointless.
You can't change that and leave Yorkshire Ripper anyway, it'd be totally illogical.
Though as someone who first came to live in Leeds a few weeks before Peter Sutcliffe murdered Jaqueline Hill, and lived through the fear that all women here livedthrough at that time, I have to say I think naming a route after a murderer because the route is 'hard' is, well....it makes me think the FA concerned is somewhat lacking in empathy. That maybe unfair; more likely they are five pint names.
But hardness may not be the reason for the choice of name.
No.....once named it's part of history. I would object to attempts to rewrite our
history.
Keep it, censorship would be wrong and pointless.
You can't change that and leave Yorkshire Ripper anyway, it'd be totally illogical.
Though as someone who first came to live in Leeds a few weeks before Peter Sutcliffe murdered Jaqueline Hill, and lived through the fear that all women here livedthrough at that time, I have to say I think naming a route after a murderer because the route is 'hard' is, well....it makes me think the FA concerned is somewhat lacking in empathy. That maybe unfair; more likely they are five pint names.
But hardness may not be the reason for the choice of name.
No.....once named it's part of history. I would object to attempts to rewrite our
history.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
I do wish people would stop using the word censorship about this issue.
Censorship is something done by governments. Guidebooks are produced by individuals and there is no more obligation on them to record route names that they don't like than there is on the Daily Telegraph to provide a platform to the League Against Cruel Sports. Dave Garnett wrote something intelligent about this on the Zyklon B thread, which is more than can be said for the majority of contributors to this one. (I mean, the chap who "refuses to live" in a world where one can't call one's routes Myra Hindley and have the name widely disseminated?!) Using a word which refers to a, potentially, genuinely nasty and dangerous practice about this simply cheapens the language. It's like people who call no-smoking restaurants fascist.
As for the mere record of the name not glorifying the person it refers to, I'm not so sure this is true. I'm sure daveH or others could say better, but is it not true that the desire to be known is, or is sometimes, part of what drives serial murderers?
In the end I think it's a matter for the guidebook author/editor, but if it were me I think I'd record it under Steve Roberts' suggested new name. You can always record the original name and the reason for the change in a footnote.
I do wish people would stop using the word censorship about this issue.
Censorship is something done by governments. Guidebooks are produced by individuals and there is no more obligation on them to record route names that they don't like than there is on the Daily Telegraph to provide a platform to the League Against Cruel Sports. Dave Garnett wrote something intelligent about this on the Zyklon B thread, which is more than can be said for the majority of contributors to this one. (I mean, the chap who "refuses to live" in a world where one can't call one's routes Myra Hindley and have the name widely disseminated?!) Using a word which refers to a, potentially, genuinely nasty and dangerous practice about this simply cheapens the language. It's like people who call no-smoking restaurants fascist.
As for the mere record of the name not glorifying the person it refers to, I'm not so sure this is true. I'm sure daveH or others could say better, but is it not true that the desire to be known is, or is sometimes, part of what drives serial murderers?
In the end I think it's a matter for the guidebook author/editor, but if it were me I think I'd record it under Steve Roberts' suggested new name. You can always record the original name and the reason for the change in a footnote.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I agree with you about the word censorship and I used it incorrectly in the initial post. It is a similar situation when people complain about their threads being "censored".
I wish I could find the Zyklon B thread. Can anyone else?
It doens't seem to appear anymore. Probably posted to Down the Pub instead of ROCKTALK and DTP posts get deleted after a time.
Alan
I agree with you about the word censorship and I used it incorrectly in the initial post. It is a similar situation when people complain about their threads being "censored".
I wish I could find the Zyklon B thread. Can anyone else?
It doens't seem to appear anymore. Probably posted to Down the Pub instead of ROCKTALK and DTP posts get deleted after a time.
Alan
In reply to gingerkate:
Kate, I think Yorkshire Ripper was so named because it has sharp holds which are liable to rip holes in your fingertips, and of course it's in Yorkshire. It's fair to say that the tradition is to name neighbouring routes after the first route done on an area of rock, which is how Myra H arose, as the FA says. To me, although I seem to be in a small minority, it makes a difference whether route names bear some relation to the character of the route or surrounding rock. Since both these two do, in the way I've identified, I find them less offensive than Zyklon B. The reason I'd be inclined to rename this route is that the FA has indicated he doesn't mind and that it's not a famous route: renaming Yorkshire Ripper wouldn't stop people calling it that.
'Rewriting history', btw? Come on, don't be so daft. What's rewriting history about a route appearing under another name with a footnote that this route used to be called XYZ but the authors have proposed another name on the grounds that the earlier one was offensive?
Kate, I think Yorkshire Ripper was so named because it has sharp holds which are liable to rip holes in your fingertips, and of course it's in Yorkshire. It's fair to say that the tradition is to name neighbouring routes after the first route done on an area of rock, which is how Myra H arose, as the FA says. To me, although I seem to be in a small minority, it makes a difference whether route names bear some relation to the character of the route or surrounding rock. Since both these two do, in the way I've identified, I find them less offensive than Zyklon B. The reason I'd be inclined to rename this route is that the FA has indicated he doesn't mind and that it's not a famous route: renaming Yorkshire Ripper wouldn't stop people calling it that.
'Rewriting history', btw? Come on, don't be so daft. What's rewriting history about a route appearing under another name with a footnote that this route used to be called XYZ but the authors have proposed another name on the grounds that the earlier one was offensive?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Point taken about use of word censorship.
However, I think it'd be wrong to change the name.....shall they change Yorkshire Ripper too?
If not, why not?
Point taken about use of word censorship.
However, I think it'd be wrong to change the name.....shall they change Yorkshire Ripper too?
If not, why not?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I disagree. Whether in a sub-culture, or a national or global culture , the destruction of the freedom of speech on an individul or societal level , particulary in any form of publishing, is censorship.
Yous sincerely ,
A bloke wot used to work in a censors office.
Yous sincerely ,
A bloke wot used to work in a censors office.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX: Censorship is not new in climbing guides. I do recall many of Pete Oxley's route names being changed or abbreviated in order to avoid upset to other climbers (seem to remember one originally called '7 jews in a gas chamber', might be wrong so don't quote me!)... Plus many of his route names have been changed (by him) to change their depicted 'mood', e.g. Don't let the tears rust your shining heart - now Shining Heart
Numerous examples exist that have changed especially in the South. Another interesting one (can't remember 1st ascentionist) is FYB which is more localy known as Fist Your Bitch...
JIMBO
Numerous examples exist that have changed especially in the South. Another interesting one (can't remember 1st ascentionist) is FYB which is more localy known as Fist Your Bitch...
JIMBO
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
John, it's because Yorkshire Ripper was named because it rips ickle babba climbers ickle fingers that I find it such an objectionable name.
Peter Sutcliffe leapt out on womenand murdered them in the mostterrifying and gruesome manner. I was about to put what hedid, but deleted it, because whoknows who might be reading this.
It's insensitive to call a route after that kind of crime because someone got a bit scratched for god's sake!
John, it's because Yorkshire Ripper was named because it rips ickle babba climbers ickle fingers that I find it such an objectionable name.
Peter Sutcliffe leapt out on womenand murdered them in the mostterrifying and gruesome manner. I was about to put what hedid, but deleted it, because whoknows who might be reading this.
It's insensitive to call a route after that kind of crime because someone got a bit scratched for god's sake!
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Censorship something done by governments? Nonsense. Most often done by governments, perhaps. When the BBC (a non governmental organisation) banned the Sex Pistols' God Save the Queen that was censorship, and here is an article on censorship which refers to parents taking books off library shelves as censorship http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/ejournals/ALAN/winter96/pubCONN.html . Here's a dictionary definition of the verb to censor - 'to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable'.
Don't listen to him everyone, he's off on one of his rants again.
Don't listen to him everyone, he's off on one of his rants again.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Are you sure?
Just like Comedy is so-named because "it isn't serious" so Muzzy thought....he was wrong.
Anyway censorship:
"the changing or the suppression or prohibition of speech or writing that is condemned as subversive of the common good. It occurs in all manifestations of authority to some degree"
The authority in this case being the author of the guidebook.
Mick
> (In reply to gingerkate)
>
> Kate, I think Yorkshire Ripper was so named because it has sharp holds which are liable to rip holes in your fingertips
>
> Kate, I think Yorkshire Ripper was so named because it has sharp holds which are liable to rip holes in your fingertips
Are you sure?
Just like Comedy is so-named because "it isn't serious" so Muzzy thought....he was wrong.
Anyway censorship:
"the changing or the suppression or prohibition of speech or writing that is condemned as subversive of the common good. It occurs in all manifestations of authority to some degree"
The authority in this case being the author of the guidebook.
Mick
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
and I quote from the ZKB thread:
As an editor this is clearly a difficult call.
Re-reading my own and other posts I strongly feel that should remain in the book, with a footnote to explain the issues and situation you faced before publication.
People can then inerprete it as they see fit, and hopefully pause to think about what Zyklon B represents.
Written by myself in a rare period of clarity, attempting to break the pointless argument about ZKB and Agent Orange and no bum jokes in sight.
and I quote from the ZKB thread:
As an editor this is clearly a difficult call.
Re-reading my own and other posts I strongly feel that should remain in the book, with a footnote to explain the issues and situation you faced before publication.
People can then inerprete it as they see fit, and hopefully pause to think about what Zyklon B represents.
Written by myself in a rare period of clarity, attempting to break the pointless argument about ZKB and Agent Orange and no bum jokes in sight.
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: yes agree re censorship....it can be done by anyone not just governments...
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
Since John was kind enough to refer to it, what I said was:
Of course, if you put up a new route, you can refer to it however you like. However, if I'm editing the guidebook (whether for the BMC or anyone else) and I consider that the name you chose is offensive, I can choose to call it what ever I like. In practice, I'd ask around (perhaps here) just to check I wasn't being puritanical, and I'd try to find a bowdlerised version or at least a name in the same style.
Different editors will draw the line in different places. As it happens I don't find the name is question as offensive as John clearly does, but I defend completely his right to change it if he wants to (assuming he's the editor).
I think we need to think carefully about the "rights" putting up a route gives us (none, obviously). Amongst the privileges traditionally accorded to first ascentionists is the choice of name. However if this privilege is abused, the rest of us aren't obliged to respect it. I guess the only inalienable right is that of being identified as the first ascentionist.
Since John was kind enough to refer to it, what I said was:
Of course, if you put up a new route, you can refer to it however you like. However, if I'm editing the guidebook (whether for the BMC or anyone else) and I consider that the name you chose is offensive, I can choose to call it what ever I like. In practice, I'd ask around (perhaps here) just to check I wasn't being puritanical, and I'd try to find a bowdlerised version or at least a name in the same style.
Different editors will draw the line in different places. As it happens I don't find the name is question as offensive as John clearly does, but I defend completely his right to change it if he wants to (assuming he's the editor).
I think we need to think carefully about the "rights" putting up a route gives us (none, obviously). Amongst the privileges traditionally accorded to first ascentionists is the choice of name. However if this privilege is abused, the rest of us aren't obliged to respect it. I guess the only inalienable right is that of being identified as the first ascentionist.
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
I’m not sure at all, no, hence the expression ‘I think’. Do you know? And go on then, why was Comedy so called?
Dictionary definitions of words are never helpful, particularly when they’re obviously wrong. A writer rereading his own work to check whether he might have offended anyone would come within John2’s dictionary definition, but not within anyone else’s. The very word ‘censor’ comes from a government official in Roman times. As Mick says, censorship is connected with authority – I was wrong to say government specifically, authority is a much better word. The idea that a guidebook author has ‘authority’ is absurd, of course.
I’m not sure at all, no, hence the expression ‘I think’. Do you know? And go on then, why was Comedy so called?
Dictionary definitions of words are never helpful, particularly when they’re obviously wrong. A writer rereading his own work to check whether he might have offended anyone would come within John2’s dictionary definition, but not within anyone else’s. The very word ‘censor’ comes from a government official in Roman times. As Mick says, censorship is connected with authority – I was wrong to say government specifically, authority is a much better word. The idea that a guidebook author has ‘authority’ is absurd, of course.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: As I suspect you well know, John, the job of the Censors in Ancient Rome was to draw up the list of enfranchised citizens (hence the modern word 'census').
Great generalisations of our time - 'Dictionary definitions of words are never helpful'.
So do you deny that parents in no position of authority withdrawing library books from shelves constitutes censorship?
Great generalisations of our time - 'Dictionary definitions of words are never helpful'.
So do you deny that parents in no position of authority withdrawing library books from shelves constitutes censorship?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
No you are right John, in modern times censorship is associated with governments.
Comedy........because I'm a comedian.....a bad one, but there you go.
I'm sorry though John.....guidebook authors do have authority and sometimes it is abused. You should know that because many of them cause a lot of upset.
Mick
No you are right John, in modern times censorship is associated with governments.
Comedy........because I'm a comedian.....a bad one, but there you go.
I'm sorry though John.....guidebook authors do have authority and sometimes it is abused. You should know that because many of them cause a lot of upset.
Mick
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
The route "Wogs" at Chudleigh was done in the 1920s I think and while disparaging use of the word in general conversation is offensive, it does have cultural significance; (endemic racism in our country). I am sure there are lots of sexist route names. Thing is not to suppress this but think about it, argue and put a more worthy point of view.
> (In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX)
>
> I do wish people would stop using the word censorship about this issue.
>
I agree. "Censorship" takes many forms and we ignore its relation to access, who has the power to publish etc. Are rules about posting on this website "censorship"?>
> I do wish people would stop using the word censorship about this issue.
>
The route "Wogs" at Chudleigh was done in the 1920s I think and while disparaging use of the word in general conversation is offensive, it does have cultural significance; (endemic racism in our country). I am sure there are lots of sexist route names. Thing is not to suppress this but think about it, argue and put a more worthy point of view.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
My initial knee-jerk reaction was:
"Oh that's a bit off - perhaps they should rename it"
And then I got past the Daily Mail line of thinking, and thought that again, it has no direction. There is no sense as to what is implied.
Make of it what you will.
Myra Hindley will at some point die, and people will come to this particular climb, and say to themselves "Myra Hindley - now there was a nasty woman"
Either way, I don't think it's particularly damaging to leave it.
My initial knee-jerk reaction was:
"Oh that's a bit off - perhaps they should rename it"
And then I got past the Daily Mail line of thinking, and thought that again, it has no direction. There is no sense as to what is implied.
Make of it what you will.
Myra Hindley will at some point die, and people will come to this particular climb, and say to themselves "Myra Hindley - now there was a nasty woman"
Either way, I don't think it's particularly damaging to leave it.
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA and John Cox :
Look, power is relative, governments have loads, guidebook editors have some, it isn't true censorship if a guidebook writer doesn't use the FAs name.
I know what I'd do. Next to the Nazi gas route name I'd put a quote, from someone who survived the holocaust, next to the Myra Hindley one I'd do something similar. Next to the fist f*ck one
I'd put something about pornography and desire......
but somehow I don't think anyone would buy my guidebooks, would they?
Look, power is relative, governments have loads, guidebook editors have some, it isn't true censorship if a guidebook writer doesn't use the FAs name.
I know what I'd do. Next to the Nazi gas route name I'd put a quote, from someone who survived the holocaust, next to the Myra Hindley one I'd do something similar. Next to the fist f*ck one
I'd put something about pornography and desire......
but somehow I don't think anyone would buy my guidebooks, would they?
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
Dont change it unless you will have legal problems arising from publishing the name. If that is the case remove the name with an apology about why and refer the reader to somewhere they can find out about what happened.
On the one hand censorship should be avoided. On the other climbers need to be prepared to defend/ take the flak for the names they come up with. I still think on the whole, unpleasant names, even with immoral intent, bring most people to think about the fact that this is not a perfect world and if you sweep it under the carpet that will cut healthy debate. If guidebooks end up like American TV we will really need some help.
Dont change it unless you will have legal problems arising from publishing the name. If that is the case remove the name with an apology about why and refer the reader to somewhere they can find out about what happened.
On the one hand censorship should be avoided. On the other climbers need to be prepared to defend/ take the flak for the names they come up with. I still think on the whole, unpleasant names, even with immoral intent, bring most people to think about the fact that this is not a perfect world and if you sweep it under the carpet that will cut healthy debate. If guidebooks end up like American TV we will really need some help.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
Absoluteley never.
Route naming is the privelege of talent. If they didn't want it called that they should have climbed it first.
Didn't Williams censor some of Redheads slate route names.
Again, none of his business
Absoluteley never.
Route naming is the privelege of talent. If they didn't want it called that they should have climbed it first.
Didn't Williams censor some of Redheads slate route names.
Again, none of his business
In reply to Martin Brierley:
The chillwind of common sense, balance and context through blows through another irrelevent thread.
Well said Martin
The chillwind of common sense, balance and context through blows through another irrelevent thread.
Well said Martin
In reply to John Rushby:
‘Another irrelevent thread’ is a little rich coming from someone who on an earlier thread described the dilemma this thread addresses as ‘difficult’ and who has posted a number of threads which, whatever their other merits, could hardly be accused of relevance.
In reply to Gfoz: yes and no; some of Redhead’s names were changed, wrongly in my view, in PW’s Llanberis guidebook (and subsequent guidebooks) but by a decision of the CC publications committee of the time, not of the late Paul Williams. This is of course only one example; lots of route names have been changed by guidebook editors and writers, and if they hadn’t been we’d all be referring to a certain well-known Curbar classic as C*nt Crack. Contrary to some posters’ ideas, I haven’t noticed the earth ceasing to turn as a result.
In reply to John2: to demonstrate my point about the uselessness of a dictionary definition, removing books from libraries would not be censorship according to your dictionary definition, because it would not necessarily involve any examining. Nor would the present exercise, because a text has not yet been created to examine. Alan could simply decide to say nothing about this route in his text.
In any event, a word does not mean what it says in the dictionary, but what speakers of the language understand it to mean. A father looking through a book to decide whether the pictures in it may be too upsetting for his three year old child is not a censor by any normal usage, but he is according to your dictionary.
‘Another irrelevent thread’ is a little rich coming from someone who on an earlier thread described the dilemma this thread addresses as ‘difficult’ and who has posted a number of threads which, whatever their other merits, could hardly be accused of relevance.
In reply to Gfoz: yes and no; some of Redhead’s names were changed, wrongly in my view, in PW’s Llanberis guidebook (and subsequent guidebooks) but by a decision of the CC publications committee of the time, not of the late Paul Williams. This is of course only one example; lots of route names have been changed by guidebook editors and writers, and if they hadn’t been we’d all be referring to a certain well-known Curbar classic as C*nt Crack. Contrary to some posters’ ideas, I haven’t noticed the earth ceasing to turn as a result.
In reply to John2: to demonstrate my point about the uselessness of a dictionary definition, removing books from libraries would not be censorship according to your dictionary definition, because it would not necessarily involve any examining. Nor would the present exercise, because a text has not yet been created to examine. Alan could simply decide to say nothing about this route in his text.
In any event, a word does not mean what it says in the dictionary, but what speakers of the language understand it to mean. A father looking through a book to decide whether the pictures in it may be too upsetting for his three year old child is not a censor by any normal usage, but he is according to your dictionary.
This was a good example of a "circular thread" - everyone agreeing with each other in a very civilised way - until along comes johncox to stir things up - but we seem to have come back to agreement and fluffyness - perhaps its an "elipsoid thread"?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Ok, fair enough, I was being impish, but whilst the ZB thread threw up a number of pertinent issues concerning race I think we are in danger of losing sight of the fact that a guidebook should be a record, albeit it the necessary background information, with route names recorded and the public left to make up its own mind.
Ok, fair enough, I was being impish, but whilst the ZB thread threw up a number of pertinent issues concerning race I think we are in danger of losing sight of the fact that a guidebook should be a record, albeit it the necessary background information, with route names recorded and the public left to make up its own mind.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Sense 2 of the OED definition of the noun 'censor' is actually both better and wittier - 'One who exercises official or officious supervision over morals and conduct'.
In reply to John Rushby:
I think it'd actually be quite interesting if contentious names were included with a bit of info as to how they came to have the name, a bit of perspective.
Well, it'd interest me.
I think it'd actually be quite interesting if contentious names were included with a bit of info as to how they came to have the name, a bit of perspective.
Well, it'd interest me.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX: I have no wish to dismiss the dilemma or diminish the importance of the guide , or climbing , but lets get a perspective here ; you can buy numerous books in high street shops , get them in libraries , find videos about murderers , and every paper you read today will have details of far worse than simply the name of a criminal. One or two route names that will most likely only be known to climbers , who will hopefully understand it does not represent climbing , is not going to harm the sport or the world in general. At it worst it's distasteful and no more.
In reply to gingerkate: I'd actually be interested in the origins of many non contentious route names, but strictly speaking that's not the information that a guide book exists to provide.
In reply to John2:
D'you not think? I think titbits like this are generally appreciated by the guide-booking buying public, and recent trends seem to agree with me.
D'you not think? I think titbits like this are generally appreciated by the guide-booking buying public, and recent trends seem to agree with me.
In reply to gingerkate:
I agree, at the end of the day someone has a taken the trouble to give a route a name and that name has some degree of relevance. Why not record it.
If it is offensive, leave it in, the FA name can appear next to it and we can all make up our own minds.
I agree, at the end of the day someone has a taken the trouble to give a route a name and that name has some degree of relevance. Why not record it.
If it is offensive, leave it in, the FA name can appear next to it and we can all make up our own minds.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
The world doesnt stop turning because of censorship but it does lose some of its colour and freedom. Your example is a bit unfair becuse there are obvious differences between childishly gratuatous names and names inspired by artistic, political or philosphical points. Still the author should put up or shut up as editors cant be left carrying the can.
On books I'm glad my parents never censored my reading and were brave enough to recognise that it was bound to lead to some awkward questions. Being surrounded by antagonistic religious factions in my family also taught me a useful early lesson in the danger of allowing adults to teach children "the truth". Like I said before, look at the US popular culture: that is where kindly censorship can lead us; with the PC on one side and the religious right on the other.
BTW Death to Khomeini still exists at Baslow...even without an first ascensionist.
The world doesnt stop turning because of censorship but it does lose some of its colour and freedom. Your example is a bit unfair becuse there are obvious differences between childishly gratuatous names and names inspired by artistic, political or philosphical points. Still the author should put up or shut up as editors cant be left carrying the can.
On books I'm glad my parents never censored my reading and were brave enough to recognise that it was bound to lead to some awkward questions. Being surrounded by antagonistic religious factions in my family also taught me a useful early lesson in the danger of allowing adults to teach children "the truth". Like I said before, look at the US popular culture: that is where kindly censorship can lead us; with the PC on one side and the religious right on the other.
BTW Death to Khomeini still exists at Baslow...even without an first ascensionist.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
What is Dave Musgrove's take on this?
Dave are you going to do what the anonymous "concerened" citizen is suggesting?
Mick
> This person has approach both myself and the YMC guidebook editor and suggested that we give the first ascensionist - Steve Roberts - the chance to re-name the route. If he refuses then the route should be re-named for him.
What is Dave Musgrove's take on this?
Dave are you going to do what the anonymous "concerened" citizen is suggesting?
Mick
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
Mick wrote
Just interested in what your very broad limits are?
And who sets them?
Mick wrote
> (I am now convinced that the guidebook author or editor should let all route names stand (within very broad limits), particularly if the first ascensionists name is right next to the route name.
Just interested in what your very broad limits are?
And who sets them?
In reply to gingerkate:
I think I'm right in saying that Dougal Haston so-named F*ck Face as a deliberate attempt to annoy the SMC precisely because they'd been censoring some of the other route names going about at the time!
> I think it'd actually be quite interesting if contentious names were included with a bit of info as to how they came to have the name, a bit of perspective.
I think I'm right in saying that Dougal Haston so-named F*ck Face as a deliberate attempt to annoy the SMC precisely because they'd been censoring some of the other route names going about at the time!
In reply to Stitch:
I think if a new router named a route after someone in the climbing world and the name was slanderous I'd have no qualms about deleting it, or at least asking the fa's to re-name it.
I think that might be the only situation...?
So whilst..."Greg Rimmer ....the motion picture", is OK....as is "Too Hard For Bob Harrington".....something like......
"Dave Wilson is A Lying, Cheating, Stealing Bastard"....
wouldn't pass the test...
Mick
> (In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA)
> Mick wrote
> [...]
>
> Just interested in what your very broad limits are?
> And who sets them?
> Mick wrote
> [...]
>
> Just interested in what your very broad limits are?
> And who sets them?
I think if a new router named a route after someone in the climbing world and the name was slanderous I'd have no qualms about deleting it, or at least asking the fa's to re-name it.
I think that might be the only situation...?
So whilst..."Greg Rimmer ....the motion picture", is OK....as is "Too Hard For Bob Harrington".....something like......
"Dave Wilson is A Lying, Cheating, Stealing Bastard"....
wouldn't pass the test...
Mick
In reply to Walker:
>One or two route names that will most likely only be known to climbers , who will hopefully understand it does not represent climbing , is not going to harm the sport or the world in general<
This argument cuts both ways, equally if the "right" (God help us) of first ascentionists to give routes racist names is taken away, that isn't going to harm anyone a great deal, either, pace the noble but perhaps slightly f*ckwitted gentleman higher up the thread who thought it would create a world he didn't want to live in.
>One or two route names that will most likely only be known to climbers , who will hopefully understand it does not represent climbing , is not going to harm the sport or the world in general<
This argument cuts both ways, equally if the "right" (God help us) of first ascentionists to give routes racist names is taken away, that isn't going to harm anyone a great deal, either, pace the noble but perhaps slightly f*ckwitted gentleman higher up the thread who thought it would create a world he didn't want to live in.
In reply to John Rushby:
Or one can go round and give said offensive FA a jolly good kicking....
>
> If it is offensive, leave it in, the FA name can appear next to it and we can all make up our own minds.
> If it is offensive, leave it in, the FA name can appear next to it and we can all make up our own minds.
Or one can go round and give said offensive FA a jolly good kicking....
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Of course first ascentionists have the right to give racist names. What they dont have a right to is having it printed in a guidebook. Just like you have a right to be rude about other posters until it gets removed: it doesnt make the statement or the censorship a good idea.
Of course first ascentionists have the right to give racist names. What they dont have a right to is having it printed in a guidebook. Just like you have a right to be rude about other posters until it gets removed: it doesnt make the statement or the censorship a good idea.
In reply to Stuart S:
I heard that The SMC also had a rule against female names to stop folks naming their routes in honour of their respective partners but Ian Nicholson got round that by calling a route on the Ben 'Sioux Wall'. Clever huh ? I'm sure Siouxsie of the Banshees would be ferrr chuffed with that one.
G
> (In reply to gingerkate)
>
> [...]
>
> I think I'm right in saying that Dougal Haston so-named F*ck Face as a deliberate attempt to annoy the SMC precisely because they'd been censoring some of the other route names going about at the time!
>
> [...]
>
> I think I'm right in saying that Dougal Haston so-named F*ck Face as a deliberate attempt to annoy the SMC precisely because they'd been censoring some of the other route names going about at the time!
I heard that The SMC also had a rule against female names to stop folks naming their routes in honour of their respective partners but Ian Nicholson got round that by calling a route on the Ben 'Sioux Wall'. Clever huh ? I'm sure Siouxsie of the Banshees would be ferrr chuffed with that one.
G
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
the noble but perhaps slightly f*ckwitted gentleman higher up the thread who thought it would create a world he didn't want to live in.
Cheers John. I climb for me. I think for me. I freely gave my heartfelt opinion for it's all I have. Every time I see the front page of a tabloid after some attrocity, It makes me feel sick that the journos and editors of these rags make money spreading obnoxious propaganda. This is the stuff that makes the world unbearable for me to live in. Instead of writing intelligently about counselling and rehabilitation, we have 'hang the sick perverts' and similar comments. Many of the abusers were themselves abused and we need to break the cycle. 'Signing for Sarah' is as far away from helping anyones children as you are likely to get. These comments will go on forever as they are blindly offering a better, safer world. We will see more Hungerfords, Dunblanes, WTC's, Sarah's, Hindleys, Huntleys and Pots. Which is worse, incitement from the tabloids or someone printing the name of a serial killer in a guidebook? I have suffered loss at the hands of a car driver. Do I call for a ban of cars, the individual concerned or ever mentioning their name? No. Do I still drive? Of course! Perspective please. So if you think of me as you write above, fine. I won't be the one with a white picket fence round my safe little world. It was good to see the other side of the coin and have someone play devils advocate, however.
the noble but perhaps slightly f*ckwitted gentleman higher up the thread who thought it would create a world he didn't want to live in.
Cheers John. I climb for me. I think for me. I freely gave my heartfelt opinion for it's all I have. Every time I see the front page of a tabloid after some attrocity, It makes me feel sick that the journos and editors of these rags make money spreading obnoxious propaganda. This is the stuff that makes the world unbearable for me to live in. Instead of writing intelligently about counselling and rehabilitation, we have 'hang the sick perverts' and similar comments. Many of the abusers were themselves abused and we need to break the cycle. 'Signing for Sarah' is as far away from helping anyones children as you are likely to get. These comments will go on forever as they are blindly offering a better, safer world. We will see more Hungerfords, Dunblanes, WTC's, Sarah's, Hindleys, Huntleys and Pots. Which is worse, incitement from the tabloids or someone printing the name of a serial killer in a guidebook? I have suffered loss at the hands of a car driver. Do I call for a ban of cars, the individual concerned or ever mentioning their name? No. Do I still drive? Of course! Perspective please. So if you think of me as you write above, fine. I won't be the one with a white picket fence round my safe little world. It was good to see the other side of the coin and have someone play devils advocate, however.
In reply to Phil West:
John Cox has a well deserved reputation as an intelligent, hard hitting, knowledgeable contributor to RT who does not suffer fools lightly (at all, in fact).
Unfortunately, recent threads give the impression that he is trying to live up to his reputation, resulting in random insults such as the one directed at you.
John Cox has a well deserved reputation as an intelligent, hard hitting, knowledgeable contributor to RT who does not suffer fools lightly (at all, in fact).
Unfortunately, recent threads give the impression that he is trying to live up to his reputation, resulting in random insults such as the one directed at you.
In reply to Phil West:
Well, now you're talking! I couldn't agree more with most of the above.
>Which is worse, incitement from the tabloids or someone printing the name of a serial killer in a guidebook?<
The former. Massively. In fact, dare I say, obviously. So what? Doesn't mean the latter can't be of concern also.
>Perspective please.<
Well, err, quite. We are talking (in the general rather than in this specific case, where the FA has given what I consider a sensible reason for his choice of name) about whether silly little gobshites should have the pleasure of seeing their racist or otherwise offensive names published in a guidebook. To say that if that freedom is taken away we will be sweeping evils under the carpet and creating a world you refuse to live in seems to me to lack a bit of perspective (not that you're the only one, merely the one to express it in the most flowery language), which was why I said what I did.
In reply to international: bless! Well-deserved, eh! I think shall save your post on my hard drive in my file called 'flattering Rocktalk abuse'.
Well, now you're talking! I couldn't agree more with most of the above.
>Which is worse, incitement from the tabloids or someone printing the name of a serial killer in a guidebook?<
The former. Massively. In fact, dare I say, obviously. So what? Doesn't mean the latter can't be of concern also.
>Perspective please.<
Well, err, quite. We are talking (in the general rather than in this specific case, where the FA has given what I consider a sensible reason for his choice of name) about whether silly little gobshites should have the pleasure of seeing their racist or otherwise offensive names published in a guidebook. To say that if that freedom is taken away we will be sweeping evils under the carpet and creating a world you refuse to live in seems to me to lack a bit of perspective (not that you're the only one, merely the one to express it in the most flowery language), which was why I said what I did.
In reply to international: bless! Well-deserved, eh! I think shall save your post on my hard drive in my file called 'flattering Rocktalk abuse'.
Maybe it is time we just gave up on route names ... especially now that every arse-dragging sit-start boulder problem variation seems to need to have one. Why not just the first ascentionist's surname and the date. At least then they'd mostly be unique and could be used to key databases.
In reply to tobyfk:
Why bother with that.......there's so many conflicting claims these days..
M
> Why not just the first ascentionist's surname and the date.
Why bother with that.......there's so many conflicting claims these days..
M
In reply to GFoz:
Aye, ye "heard" Fozzy..
but ye "heard" wrang,
AGAIN
an' again', an' again, an' again
an' again...
The SMC had a policy, not "rule" -
against eponymous, not "female" route names.
Why don't you jist admit you're makin' these silly little scenarios up, they're "all in yer heid, son", and i for one, am not fooled..
SP
> I heard that The SMC also had a rule against female names to stop folks naming their routes in honour of their respective partners
Aye, ye "heard" Fozzy..
but ye "heard" wrang,
AGAIN
an' again', an' again, an' again
an' again...
The SMC had a policy, not "rule" -
against eponymous, not "female" route names.
Why don't you jist admit you're makin' these silly little scenarios up, they're "all in yer heid, son", and i for one, am not fooled..
SP
In reply to Phil West: Part of an article I wrote a while ago may be relevant here...The use of the swastika as a design on clothing is not new, even outside neo-Nazi circles (witness its proliferation in punk fashions during the late '70s and early '80s). The UK is fairly tolerant of this form of personal expression, although the wearing of Nazi and National Socialist insignia is a criminal offence punishable by imprisonment in some countries - Germany, Brazil and the former Soviet Union, for example.
In Germany, in fact, the total ban on the swastika means that since the 1950s a large proportion of Airfix model W.W.II aircraft have had historical details changed e.g. the tail decal changed from a swastika to a cross. It is interesting to note that the German Imperial Warflag [Kriegsflagge] is now used by German Nazis as a substitute for the forbidden swastika.
In the US a parallel controversy has arisen over the use of the confederate flag, which is incorporated as part of the official state flag in two states (and displayed throughout the South). Racial equality campaigners are currently asking whether it can continue to be used as a symbol of identification by southern populations when it has associations with the extreme racial oppression of the past.
There is a very real risk that the strategies designed to limit the use of potentially offensive symbols not only attempt to 'rewrite history' but can have the opposite effect and give increased power to the banned symbol.
In Germany, in fact, the total ban on the swastika means that since the 1950s a large proportion of Airfix model W.W.II aircraft have had historical details changed e.g. the tail decal changed from a swastika to a cross. It is interesting to note that the German Imperial Warflag [Kriegsflagge] is now used by German Nazis as a substitute for the forbidden swastika.
In the US a parallel controversy has arisen over the use of the confederate flag, which is incorporated as part of the official state flag in two states (and displayed throughout the South). Racial equality campaigners are currently asking whether it can continue to be used as a symbol of identification by southern populations when it has associations with the extreme racial oppression of the past.
There is a very real risk that the strategies designed to limit the use of potentially offensive symbols not only attempt to 'rewrite history' but can have the opposite effect and give increased power to the banned symbol.
In reply to Pete A: Are route names different to symbols in this regard?
In reply to tobyfk: 'Why not just the first ascentionist's surname and the date. At least then they'd mostly be unique' - you obviously haven't looked at the Gary Gibson routes in the Pembroke guide's first ascent list.
In reply to Pete A:
This has all reminded me of something far more serious.
The nazis did apalling inhuman experiments of various kinds on the people they had in their power.
The data is still being used today.
The example I remember is how long someone can survive in near freezing water. If you hear figures quoted for that, that's where the data comes from, the holocaust.
I now refer to a article I read about this in New Scientist, many years ago. Maybe ten years.
The gist was that many holocaust survivors object to this silent use of the torture. By silent, I meanthat the papers that use the data sweep under the carpet its orgins. Knowledge once found cannot be unlearnt, and it isn't wrong to use it to save lives. Butit is wrong to use it without acknowledging it's dreadful roots.
Obviously this matters far more than choice of route names.
But I like the priciple.
Use the orginal name, even if it is racist like the route Wog, but don't be silent......the guidebookwriter should seize the nettle and put something in about how that name came about, and morethan that, they should make clear their opposition to the racism inherent in the name.
Staying silent can be morally wrong....it isn't just acts that can be wrong, inaction too can be wrong.
I think it'd be much more interesting to have stuff like that in guidebooks anyway, and it wouldn't swell them very much, notmany truely contentious names, surely?
This has all reminded me of something far more serious.
The nazis did apalling inhuman experiments of various kinds on the people they had in their power.
The data is still being used today.
The example I remember is how long someone can survive in near freezing water. If you hear figures quoted for that, that's where the data comes from, the holocaust.
I now refer to a article I read about this in New Scientist, many years ago. Maybe ten years.
The gist was that many holocaust survivors object to this silent use of the torture. By silent, I meanthat the papers that use the data sweep under the carpet its orgins. Knowledge once found cannot be unlearnt, and it isn't wrong to use it to save lives. Butit is wrong to use it without acknowledging it's dreadful roots.
Obviously this matters far more than choice of route names.
But I like the priciple.
Use the orginal name, even if it is racist like the route Wog, but don't be silent......the guidebookwriter should seize the nettle and put something in about how that name came about, and morethan that, they should make clear their opposition to the racism inherent in the name.
Staying silent can be morally wrong....it isn't just acts that can be wrong, inaction too can be wrong.
I think it'd be much more interesting to have stuff like that in guidebooks anyway, and it wouldn't swell them very much, notmany truely contentious names, surely?
In reply to gingerkate: Very good point gk. Clwyd Rock gives some name background where interesting, I agree that others should follow suit.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
Being as they cut bits out of the dambusters now where there was a reference to nigger the dog I doubt if you could name a route that without trouble.
Being as they cut bits out of the dambusters now where there was a reference to nigger the dog I doubt if you could name a route that without trouble.
In reply to Stac Pollaidh:
The guy that told me this story 'heard' it from Nicholson himself so if you've any problems with its accuracy take it up with him. I didn't make it up.
Also I was floating this story as one of potential interest I didn't say I hade any gripe with the SMC over this one. I don't - avoiding eponymity obvioulsy limits scope for egoism.
And if there was an eponym embargo what about all those Bells Routes, Raeburns Routes, Smiths Gully (yes I know he didn't climb it) amd Marshalls Wall (ditto) ???
I'm surprised at you Stac.
G
The guy that told me this story 'heard' it from Nicholson himself so if you've any problems with its accuracy take it up with him. I didn't make it up.
Also I was floating this story as one of potential interest I didn't say I hade any gripe with the SMC over this one. I don't - avoiding eponymity obvioulsy limits scope for egoism.
And if there was an eponym embargo what about all those Bells Routes, Raeburns Routes, Smiths Gully (yes I know he didn't climb it) amd Marshalls Wall (ditto) ???
I'm surprised at you Stac.
G
In reply to gingerkate:
>The example I remember is how long someone can survive in near freezing water. If you hear figures quoted for that, that's where the data comes from, the holocaust.<
I find this rather difficult to believe. I have read autobiographies written by serving sea officers during the war, who certainly portray themselves as knowing this sort of thing on the Russian convoys in the war. It could have been hindsight of course, but it isn't written like that.
On a lighter note, it does remind me of a rather splendid passage from Tom Patey's description of the first winter traverse of the Cuillin ridge.
"Scientists have calculated that a man hanging from a rope around his waist has [IIRC] forty-five minutes to live. I can't imagine how they arrived at this information. Probably no-one has calculated the expected lifespan of a man hanging from one foot. But it is reasonable to suppose that his condition will slowly deteriorate."
In the same way, perhaps what the sea-officers knew was just vague word of mouth rumour, and the Nazi scientists actually did the experiments that Patey couldn't imagine.
>The example I remember is how long someone can survive in near freezing water. If you hear figures quoted for that, that's where the data comes from, the holocaust.<
I find this rather difficult to believe. I have read autobiographies written by serving sea officers during the war, who certainly portray themselves as knowing this sort of thing on the Russian convoys in the war. It could have been hindsight of course, but it isn't written like that.
On a lighter note, it does remind me of a rather splendid passage from Tom Patey's description of the first winter traverse of the Cuillin ridge.
"Scientists have calculated that a man hanging from a rope around his waist has [IIRC] forty-five minutes to live. I can't imagine how they arrived at this information. Probably no-one has calculated the expected lifespan of a man hanging from one foot. But it is reasonable to suppose that his condition will slowly deteriorate."
In the same way, perhaps what the sea-officers knew was just vague word of mouth rumour, and the Nazi scientists actually did the experiments that Patey couldn't imagine.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Good one. And I shall save this on my hard drive in my file called "stylish deflection of Rocktalk abuse". I recognise the deflection as implicit agreement with my original point, so all's well that ends well.
> In reply to international: bless! Well-deserved, eh! I think shall save your post on my hard drive in my file called 'flattering Rocktalk abuse'.
Good one. And I shall save this on my hard drive in my file called "stylish deflection of Rocktalk abuse". I recognise the deflection as implicit agreement with my original point, so all's well that ends well.
In reply to GFoz: From what I've been told or read, the Sioux Wall (HVS) story is true - but it wasn't either womens' or eponymous names that the policy banned, but rather eponymous route-names of those who are still alive (otherwise Agag's would be out). How Marshall sneaked through I don't know, but we can make exceptions for living legends...
Sly digs at the now out of date (I hope) sexism of the SMC are all right in my book, they should have changed their ways earlier. Then again they make nicer guide books than all the English ones (Rockfax excepted - trying not to get banned).
Sly digs at the now out of date (I hope) sexism of the SMC are all right in my book, they should have changed their ways earlier. Then again they make nicer guide books than all the English ones (Rockfax excepted - trying not to get banned).
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: 'I find this rather difficult to believe'.
It's well documented, though. Here's a list of some of the things that the Nazi researchers got up to. http://www.remember.org/educate/medexp.html .
It's well documented, though. Here's a list of some of the things that the Nazi researchers got up to. http://www.remember.org/educate/medexp.html .
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
Excuse me if I'm missing something, but didn't the FA come on here near the beginning of the thread, stating that he would lose no sleep if the route name were altered, and even offering an alternative name?
In which case, what has everyone been talking about for the remaining 99 posts?
Excuse me if I'm missing something, but didn't the FA come on here near the beginning of the thread, stating that he would lose no sleep if the route name were altered, and even offering an alternative name?
In which case, what has everyone been talking about for the remaining 99 posts?
In reply to TobyA:
Thanks for a bit of moral support.
My post was not a heavy 'SMC sniping' , though maybe I have a track record and as soon as I mentioned them I maybe got a bit of a knee jerk defence.
I wasn't even implying any sexism. For once.
The more I think about it there are plenty of eponyms about inlcuding modern ones (including a few in Glen Nevis I think - so more modern). Also a Smiths something at Pass of Ballater.
I thibk more explanation is needed from the SMaCkheads
G
Thanks for a bit of moral support.
My post was not a heavy 'SMC sniping' , though maybe I have a track record and as soon as I mentioned them I maybe got a bit of a knee jerk defence.
I wasn't even implying any sexism. For once.
The more I think about it there are plenty of eponyms about inlcuding modern ones (including a few in Glen Nevis I think - so more modern). Also a Smiths something at Pass of Ballater.
I thibk more explanation is needed from the SMaCkheads
G
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
True, I'm afraid. Whereas its fairly common knowledge how long someone can survive in the sea, the actual physiology (what is happening to the body core temperature etc.) was not. A little off topic, sorry.
True, I'm afraid. Whereas its fairly common knowledge how long someone can survive in the sea, the actual physiology (what is happening to the body core temperature etc.) was not. A little off topic, sorry.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Didn't Toni Kurz live considerably longer than that...with a good dose of extreme cold thrown in, too?
> (In reply to gingerkate)
>
> > "Scientists have calculated that a man hanging from a rope around his waist has [IIRC] forty-five minutes to live.
>
> > "Scientists have calculated that a man hanging from a rope around his waist has [IIRC] forty-five minutes to live.
Didn't Toni Kurz live considerably longer than that...with a good dose of extreme cold thrown in, too?
In reply to GrahamD: Since when does anyone apologise for being off topic? I though it was a necessity.
So whos doing what this weekend?
etc.
So whos doing what this weekend?
etc.
In reply to gingerkate:
I think the data *may* have been used for a while after the war, but are you *sure* it's still being used today? The figures I've seen were the results of extrapolating data from volunteers who were immersed under controlled conditions and removed before their level of hypothermia became too dangerous to continue. Will try and track down a reference, but Loughborough Uni comes to mind.
> (In reply to Pete A)
>
> The example I remember is how long someone can survive in near freezing water. If you hear figures quoted for that, that's where the data comes from, the holocaust.
>
> The example I remember is how long someone can survive in near freezing water. If you hear figures quoted for that, that's where the data comes from, the holocaust.
I think the data *may* have been used for a while after the war, but are you *sure* it's still being used today? The figures I've seen were the results of extrapolating data from volunteers who were immersed under controlled conditions and removed before their level of hypothermia became too dangerous to continue. Will try and track down a reference, but Loughborough Uni comes to mind.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
All I know about it is from the article I read, ten years ago.
Maybe the data is less used today.
Maybe the source is always acknowledged when the data is usedtoday.
It will still be used.....scientists don't throw info away, do they?
None of this affects my point, however. It is, in my opnion, objectionable to reproduce a racist name, without saying more.
All I know about it is from the article I read, ten years ago.
Maybe the data is less used today.
Maybe the source is always acknowledged when the data is usedtoday.
It will still be used.....scientists don't throw info away, do they?
None of this affects my point, however. It is, in my opnion, objectionable to reproduce a racist name, without saying more.
In reply to gingerkate:
I remember a few years back, a couple of guys did some new routes up near in NW Scotland, near the Old Man of Stoer (I think). They called their new routes something along the lines of "Look at the tits on her" and "Check out the arse on that", for which they received a fair bit of abuse in one of the magazines which reported their efforts.
I also seem to remember one of the guys replying to the mag, telling the new routes section editor to get a sense of humour. Fair comment? Are sexist route names more acceptable than, say, racist ones, since that sort of nudge-nudge humour is more widely tolerated?
I remember a few years back, a couple of guys did some new routes up near in NW Scotland, near the Old Man of Stoer (I think). They called their new routes something along the lines of "Look at the tits on her" and "Check out the arse on that", for which they received a fair bit of abuse in one of the magazines which reported their efforts.
I also seem to remember one of the guys replying to the mag, telling the new routes section editor to get a sense of humour. Fair comment? Are sexist route names more acceptable than, say, racist ones, since that sort of nudge-nudge humour is more widely tolerated?
In reply to Stuart S:
Depends. Sexism and racism are sub-sets of bigotry, and it all depends on the virulence of the bigotry. Compare a route name like "women like being raped" to a route name called "lynch blacks". Equally offensive.
However, I see your point - "jokey" racism doesn't really exist, whereas "jokey" sexism does.
> I also seem to remember one of the guys replying to the mag, telling the new routes section editor to get a sense of humour. Fair comment? Are sexist route names more acceptable than, say, racist ones, since that sort of nudge-nudge humour is more widely tolerated?
Depends. Sexism and racism are sub-sets of bigotry, and it all depends on the virulence of the bigotry. Compare a route name like "women like being raped" to a route name called "lynch blacks". Equally offensive.
However, I see your point - "jokey" racism doesn't really exist, whereas "jokey" sexism does.
In reply to international_with_a_suffix:
This is bollocks, isn't it? I was only considering liberal type of people. Me and my ivory tower...
> However, I see your point - "jokey" racism doesn't really exist, whereas "jokey" sexism does.
This is bollocks, isn't it? I was only considering liberal type of people. Me and my ivory tower...
In reply to Stuart S:
'Look at the tits on her', is more like, 'He's got Rhythm'.
Whereas '7 jews in a gas chamber' is like.... I'm not even going to
put what it's like, you can imagine it yourself.
Just thought of something more important than our feelings on it.
If we let people get away with route names like the '7 jews' one,aren't we likely to end up with a route being trashed by angry people outraged by our letting that happen?
'Look at the tits on her', is more like, 'He's got Rhythm'.
Whereas '7 jews in a gas chamber' is like.... I'm not even going to
put what it's like, you can imagine it yourself.
Just thought of something more important than our feelings on it.
If we let people get away with route names like the '7 jews' one,aren't we likely to end up with a route being trashed by angry people outraged by our letting that happen?
In reply to international_with_a_suffix:
Ahh! The blessing of the self-critical mindset. Kant would be proud of you. Sir - you are a true liberal.
> (In reply to international_with_a_suffix)
> [...]
>
> This is bollocks, isn't it? I was only considering liberal type of people. Me and my ivory tower...
> [...]
>
> This is bollocks, isn't it? I was only considering liberal type of people. Me and my ivory tower...
Ahh! The blessing of the self-critical mindset. Kant would be proud of you. Sir - you are a true liberal.
In reply to gingerkate:
What's racism, though? Is the constant "drip-drip-drip" denigration of the capabilities of English mountaineers in the yearbook of the Lochaber MRT "racism"? I got so wound up by the last one I saw that I go out of my way *not* to contribute to the Lochaber team, though I'll contribute as often as possible to Glencoe, Wasdale, Ogwen etc teams. Other English people reckon it's just a laugh and I'm too sensitive.
Where do we draw the line? "Seven Jews in a Gas Chamber" is obvious, but would "English Bumblies Take a Tumble" be racist? Would the guy who yelled across loudly to his mate "We should call this route 'Fat Bastard With a Rucksack'" on seeing me walking along the path be guilty of "fattism"?
I'm just in 2 minds over this whole issue. Mostly I just feel that FAs should name routes whatever they like, and be damned, but not censored, by the climbing community if they pick something distasteful.
> > None of this affects my point, however. It is, in my opnion, objectionable to reproduce a racist name, without saying more.
What's racism, though? Is the constant "drip-drip-drip" denigration of the capabilities of English mountaineers in the yearbook of the Lochaber MRT "racism"? I got so wound up by the last one I saw that I go out of my way *not* to contribute to the Lochaber team, though I'll contribute as often as possible to Glencoe, Wasdale, Ogwen etc teams. Other English people reckon it's just a laugh and I'm too sensitive.
Where do we draw the line? "Seven Jews in a Gas Chamber" is obvious, but would "English Bumblies Take a Tumble" be racist? Would the guy who yelled across loudly to his mate "We should call this route 'Fat Bastard With a Rucksack'" on seeing me walking along the path be guilty of "fattism"?
I'm just in 2 minds over this whole issue. Mostly I just feel that FAs should name routes whatever they like, and be damned, but not censored, by the climbing community if they pick something distasteful.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
Was it McInnes of the Coe who said that the on step that would best improve safety on the scottish hills was 'rebuild Hadrians Wall'
A dispassionate (non-racist) examination of the annual SMCJ crock list seems to support this. Sorry but true.
G (quarter English b4 you start)
Was it McInnes of the Coe who said that the on step that would best improve safety on the scottish hills was 'rebuild Hadrians Wall'
A dispassionate (non-racist) examination of the annual SMCJ crock list seems to support this. Sorry but true.
G (quarter English b4 you start)
In reply to GFoz:
I hear the steady thud of Braveheart inspired Scottish nationalist, English beating threads charging towards us
I hear the steady thud of Braveheart inspired Scottish nationalist, English beating threads charging towards us
> Where do we draw the line?
We don't. The decision is not decided in any rigourous democratic fashion.
Democracy is a nebulous factor in the decision, though. We, the massed public, make our opinion known via the various media available to us and these various opinions coalesce into "the received view". The guidebook editor is chosen (by who, exactly? Another can of worms there surely?). The editor has the final say (i.e. the ability to "censor"), and their actions are inevitably coloured by the received view.
It's a messy vague progress, but the ascription of levels/intent of bigotry is a messy vague process too (normally).
I'm in two minds. I have a real problem even saying the route name "wogs", for example, but I accept that it's not a highly offensive name to most people and it has a historical context etc etc. I like the suggestion that there is minimal "censorship", but offensive route names have an explanatory footnote which emphasises the first ascentionist's name and gives them a chance to comment. Which raises the question, what is "minimal".
And so it goes...
In reply to GFoz:
The point is, the stats for rescues/injuries etc are quoted without any corresponding attempt to equate them to the participation levels. If 3/4 of callouts to Lochaber MRT involve English parties, it's meaningless and possibly insulting to highlight that unless they also have and quote reasonably accurate stats for what percentage of mountain visitors in their area are English. AFAIK, those figures don't exist.
> (In reply to Rob Naylor)
>
> > A dispassionate (non-racist) examination of the annual SMCJ crock list seems to support this. Sorry but true.
>
> > A dispassionate (non-racist) examination of the annual SMCJ crock list seems to support this. Sorry but true.
The point is, the stats for rescues/injuries etc are quoted without any corresponding attempt to equate them to the participation levels. If 3/4 of callouts to Lochaber MRT involve English parties, it's meaningless and possibly insulting to highlight that unless they also have and quote reasonably accurate stats for what percentage of mountain visitors in their area are English. AFAIK, those figures don't exist.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
3/4 !!
Didn't think it was that high to be honest.
Based on over thirteen years plus on the Scottish hills my (anecdotal I admit) view is that well well under 3/4 of those you bump into re English (though more come up in the winter which is obvioulsy riskier).
It seems reasonable to think that
- Folks from, say, Glasgow can do Glencoe in a day trip
- Folks from , say , Manchester, can't
- Folks generally climb more near to home than far away
- People who get onto high mountains more regularly are better equipped with the skills to climb them safely
This has nothing to do with national or racial characteristics. I don't think we're intrinsically 'harder' or whatever.
G
3/4 !!
Didn't think it was that high to be honest.
Based on over thirteen years plus on the Scottish hills my (anecdotal I admit) view is that well well under 3/4 of those you bump into re English (though more come up in the winter which is obvioulsy riskier).
It seems reasonable to think that
- Folks from, say, Glasgow can do Glencoe in a day trip
- Folks from , say , Manchester, can't
- Folks generally climb more near to home than far away
- People who get onto high mountains more regularly are better equipped with the skills to climb them safely
This has nothing to do with national or racial characteristics. I don't think we're intrinsically 'harder' or whatever.
G
In reply to Rob Naylor:
"Fat Bastard with a Rucksack" love it, if I ever do another new route I know what to call it.
"Fat Bastard with a Rucksack" love it, if I ever do another new route I know what to call it.
In reply to Gfoz:
There's also the psychological factor of "I've driven here all the way from Birningham, I'm not backing off this route now..."
(As opposed to "this looks scary, let's catch a pint in the Kingie then get home in time for the fitba on telly")
There's also the psychological factor of "I've driven here all the way from Birningham, I'm not backing off this route now..."
(As opposed to "this looks scary, let's catch a pint in the Kingie then get home in time for the fitba on telly")
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: What about your Burning rubber necklace Mike surely one of the all time lows ?
In reply to GFoz:
Aye, but there's two sides tae the coin, Foz pal,
of course your side tae the story MUST be true..
So what's wi' this new found obsession of namin' n' shamin', eh GFoz pal..?
kinda elementary, would huv thought..
dae ah have tae answer that wan?! awww noooo...
> (In reply to Stac Pollaidh)
>
> The guy that told me this story 'heard' it from Nicholson himself so if you've any problems with its accuracy take it up with him. I didn't make it up.
>
> The guy that told me this story 'heard' it from Nicholson himself so if you've any problems with its accuracy take it up with him. I didn't make it up.
Aye, but there's two sides tae the coin, Foz pal,
of course your side tae the story MUST be true..
>
> Also I was floating this story as one of potential interest I didn't say I hade any gripe with the SMC over this one. I don't - avoiding eponymity obvioulsy limits scope for egoism.
> Also I was floating this story as one of potential interest I didn't say I hade any gripe with the SMC over this one. I don't - avoiding eponymity obvioulsy limits scope for egoism.
So what's wi' this new found obsession of namin' n' shamin', eh GFoz pal..?
>
> And if there was an eponym embargo what about all those Bells Routes, Raeburns Routes, Smiths Gully (yes I know he didn't climb it) amd Marshalls Wall (ditto) ???
> And if there was an eponym embargo what about all those Bells Routes, Raeburns Routes, Smiths Gully (yes I know he didn't climb it) amd Marshalls Wall (ditto) ???
kinda elementary, would huv thought..
dae ah have tae answer that wan?! awww noooo...
In reply to Stac Pollaidh:
Stac, I hate to say this. History shows I'm an appaling judge of character (espec with wumminkind) but I am just taken aback at this one.
You're looking for a fight where none exists. I floated the story as an interesting one I'd heard about the roots of one name of one route on one big mountain.
I wasn't having a go at your mates, your club or anything that I can think of that you hold dear. It was a lighthearted post and still I'm getting frontpointed in the nads for it.
Whats biting you ?
G
Stac, I hate to say this. History shows I'm an appaling judge of character (espec with wumminkind) but I am just taken aback at this one.
You're looking for a fight where none exists. I floated the story as an interesting one I'd heard about the roots of one name of one route on one big mountain.
I wasn't having a go at your mates, your club or anything that I can think of that you hold dear. It was a lighthearted post and still I'm getting frontpointed in the nads for it.
Whats biting you ?
G
In reply to Stac Pollaidh:
I made a deal with you that I wouldn't let on who Stac P is and I haven't (despite strong expressions of interest from JB & Terry). Despite your flaming, a deals a deal.
I don't have any such deal with Cul Maw and the guy has dissed me so personally so much, yeah , I wanna know who he is.
G
I made a deal with you that I wouldn't let on who Stac P is and I haven't (despite strong expressions of interest from JB & Terry). Despite your flaming, a deals a deal.
I don't have any such deal with Cul Maw and the guy has dissed me so personally so much, yeah , I wanna know who he is.
G
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX: Coming from the man who found my original username of TW@ offensive, I'd have thought that you wouldn't have had to ask this question.
Just because the crimes are a few years older doesn't make them any less horrific or offensive. Try renaming it James Bulger plays with his trainset or Jessica & Holly have a big day out, people will probably be outraged!
It's happened before hasn't it? John Redheads Menstrual Discharge was renamed Mysogynists Discharge. Rename it and show a little humanity & compassion instead.
Just because the crimes are a few years older doesn't make them any less horrific or offensive. Try renaming it James Bulger plays with his trainset or Jessica & Holly have a big day out, people will probably be outraged!
It's happened before hasn't it? John Redheads Menstrual Discharge was renamed Mysogynists Discharge. Rename it and show a little humanity & compassion instead.
In reply to gingerkate: Rename it for the same reasons. It could simply be called "Ripper". At the moment it's just an example of someones very poor taste.
In reply to CENSOR:
Good, I like consistency!
Good, I like consistency!
In reply to gingerkate: 'Consistency'? nah - not much of a route name that hehehe
In reply to Pete A:
Alan,
how about just renaming all the routes in the guidebook - nice innocious names, howsabout : route1, route 2 etc etc
that'll stop the kants complaining about every facking thing
Alan,
how about just renaming all the routes in the guidebook - nice innocious names, howsabout : route1, route 2 etc etc
that'll stop the kants complaining about every facking thing
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
Interesting debate. I'm not sure yet how I'll deal with this issue but the concensus on this site seem to feel we should let it stand. I was pleased to read Steve Robert's view and would certainly speak to him again before making a change.
I have only made a couple of minor changes to route names in Yorkshire in the past, and these involved what I considered gratuitously offensive language. I personally dont like the name Myra Hindley but do feel, as many others do, that changing this name would open the flood gates for requests to change many more.
Naming a route is sometimes more difficult than climbing it and thinking of something subtle, creative and enduring, that makes people want to climb it is often quite a challenge. (particularly on some of the rubble I've climbed new routes on recently!)
Dave
> (In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX)
> [...]
>
>
> What is Dave Musgrove's take on this?
>
> Dave are you going to do what the anonymous "concerened" citizen is suggesting?
>
> Mick
> [...]
>
>
> What is Dave Musgrove's take on this?
>
> Dave are you going to do what the anonymous "concerened" citizen is suggesting?
>
> Mick
Interesting debate. I'm not sure yet how I'll deal with this issue but the concensus on this site seem to feel we should let it stand. I was pleased to read Steve Robert's view and would certainly speak to him again before making a change.
I have only made a couple of minor changes to route names in Yorkshire in the past, and these involved what I considered gratuitously offensive language. I personally dont like the name Myra Hindley but do feel, as many others do, that changing this name would open the flood gates for requests to change many more.
Naming a route is sometimes more difficult than climbing it and thinking of something subtle, creative and enduring, that makes people want to climb it is often quite a challenge. (particularly on some of the rubble I've climbed new routes on recently!)
Dave
In reply to Dave Musgrove:
"Naming a route is sometimes more difficult than climbing it and thinking of something subtle, creative and enduring, that makes people want to climb it is often quite a challenge. (particularly on some of the rubble I've climbed new routes on recently!)"
I hope you're not referring to Tudor Rose or Lovat strides?
"Naming a route is sometimes more difficult than climbing it and thinking of something subtle, creative and enduring, that makes people want to climb it is often quite a challenge. (particularly on some of the rubble I've climbed new routes on recently!)"
I hope you're not referring to Tudor Rose or Lovat strides?
In reply to Mattyk: No Matt, I wasn't referring to your routes at Almscliff. I was referring to some of my own before someone else had a go at me! I actually went and did your routes in the gully a couple of weeks ago. They're OK for what they are - anything at Almscliff has to be good. Whether they are actually new is another matter?
Dave
Dave
In reply to Mattyk:
lol, you and your new routes, you going at the weekend to give people the guided tour of them?
lol, you and your new routes, you going at the weekend to give people the guided tour of them?
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...