This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
So I've been climbing 3.5yrs, on average 1 weekend in 3 or 4 and nothing in the week. Despite the ocasional VS (usually after a few consecutive wknds climbing or on a climbing hol) I havnt managed to climb regularly above HS. I know I need to climb more often to improve. But I am also aware I have a (natural) fear of falling - the classic signs; wimping out on committing moves, placing too much gear; resting on gear e.t.c. I was keen to be rid of this demon and new the answer was to take a fall. In fact over the last year I often said to my mate before a wknds climbing "yeah Im going take a fall this wknd, might just jump off above some good gear.." But somehow its a different story when your half way up a route, clinging on for dear life.
Anyway weekend before last I had an unusual bout of bravery and decided to just go for an inspiring HVS 5a (joint effort at Staden quarry) and see what happened. Placed the first piece of gear, climbed past it and was trying to place the second from a poor position, eventually placed it but slipped off as I was clippig the rope...panic quickly followed by a millisecond of "I wonder whats going to happen now?" with the stretch in the rope I landed about 6 inches above the ground but didnt feel a thing. Despite the near miss I thought WOW I actually enjoyed that, and the gear works! On the 2nd attempt I climbed the route clean and it was a wonderful feeling topping out.
I took another fall the following day and one the next weekend too. But in between I led a bunch of VS's and a few HVS's no probs. Now I dont plan on taking falls every weekend but it has definitly been liberating - I am now climbing with much more commitment and enjoying it a lot more too. To jump from HS to HVS without climbing more often has really shown me the importance of the psychological aspects of our sport.
It has also made me ask the questions: Does the average climber push themselves hard enough mentally and take enough calculated risks? Wouldn't it be a good idea every now and then (providing we are confident placing gear) to just go for safe climbs a grade or too harder than we think we can lead,and just force ourselves into falling (or even better climbing out of our skins) What do you think? perhaps most experienced climbers are doing this all the time and I am just the newly enlightened one.
Anyway weekend before last I had an unusual bout of bravery and decided to just go for an inspiring HVS 5a (joint effort at Staden quarry) and see what happened. Placed the first piece of gear, climbed past it and was trying to place the second from a poor position, eventually placed it but slipped off as I was clippig the rope...panic quickly followed by a millisecond of "I wonder whats going to happen now?" with the stretch in the rope I landed about 6 inches above the ground but didnt feel a thing. Despite the near miss I thought WOW I actually enjoyed that, and the gear works! On the 2nd attempt I climbed the route clean and it was a wonderful feeling topping out.
I took another fall the following day and one the next weekend too. But in between I led a bunch of VS's and a few HVS's no probs. Now I dont plan on taking falls every weekend but it has definitly been liberating - I am now climbing with much more commitment and enjoying it a lot more too. To jump from HS to HVS without climbing more often has really shown me the importance of the psychological aspects of our sport.
It has also made me ask the questions: Does the average climber push themselves hard enough mentally and take enough calculated risks? Wouldn't it be a good idea every now and then (providing we are confident placing gear) to just go for safe climbs a grade or too harder than we think we can lead,and just force ourselves into falling (or even better climbing out of our skins) What do you think? perhaps most experienced climbers are doing this all the time and I am just the newly enlightened one.
In reply to bendurance:
correct me if i'm wrong, but surely its wise to have a healthy fear of falling. Who knows when that gear's gonna pop, or when you'll tw@t your head etc and so on...
What's in a grade or two as long as you stay alive?
On the other hand be patient, train more, get stronger and improve technique, and be confident rather than reckless when going for those HVS routes.
correct me if i'm wrong, but surely its wise to have a healthy fear of falling. Who knows when that gear's gonna pop, or when you'll tw@t your head etc and so on...
What's in a grade or two as long as you stay alive?
On the other hand be patient, train more, get stronger and improve technique, and be confident rather than reckless when going for those HVS routes.
In reply to bendurance:
If you make a habit of dropping onto one piece of gear, you will die. I saw someone take a horrendous lob at Staden after being egged on by her second (who should have known better). She never climbed again.
If you want to lob, get above the third bolt on a sport route, where you won't hit anything. On a trad route, you want at least three good pieces to stop you.
Mick
If you make a habit of dropping onto one piece of gear, you will die. I saw someone take a horrendous lob at Staden after being egged on by her second (who should have known better). She never climbed again.
If you want to lob, get above the third bolt on a sport route, where you won't hit anything. On a trad route, you want at least three good pieces to stop you.
Mick
In reply to bendurance:
I've been climbing about 4 years and until last month I think I'd taken 4 leader falls on trad. Not something I was proud of but it definitely gave me faith in my gear as it had always held.
Last month - climbing at Staden Quarry - I took a fall onto my gear and it caught. I continued climbing and slipped again - this time I wasn't so lucky. My gear ripped. I hit the deck, knocked myself out and bounced down the rocks. 2 hours later I was strapped to a board, bleeding profusely from my head, being loaded into a helicopter by mountain rescue.
I am now TERRIFIED of falling. V Diffs scare me more than E1s did 2 months ago.
A rational fear of falling is good. And trusting your gear is good. Knowing that taking a risk, is in fact a calculated risk and your gear is there to protect you is good. But consciously choosing to fall on trad is very bad!
I'm not sure what I'm trying to say. I think it's great that you've gained confidence in your gear and taking a fall is definitely a liberating experience. BUT please keep hold of a little bit of that fear of falling. And don't go falling on Staden again - although that just might be me!
I've been climbing about 4 years and until last month I think I'd taken 4 leader falls on trad. Not something I was proud of but it definitely gave me faith in my gear as it had always held.
Last month - climbing at Staden Quarry - I took a fall onto my gear and it caught. I continued climbing and slipped again - this time I wasn't so lucky. My gear ripped. I hit the deck, knocked myself out and bounced down the rocks. 2 hours later I was strapped to a board, bleeding profusely from my head, being loaded into a helicopter by mountain rescue.
I am now TERRIFIED of falling. V Diffs scare me more than E1s did 2 months ago.
A rational fear of falling is good. And trusting your gear is good. Knowing that taking a risk, is in fact a calculated risk and your gear is there to protect you is good. But consciously choosing to fall on trad is very bad!
I'm not sure what I'm trying to say. I think it's great that you've gained confidence in your gear and taking a fall is definitely a liberating experience. BUT please keep hold of a little bit of that fear of falling. And don't go falling on Staden again - although that just might be me!
In reply to bendurance:
I think most people do that to some extent.
As Mick says it's safer to improve your ability to do hard moves with a risk of falling onto bolts rather than trad gear.
There's a lot to be gained from good tactics as well.
> It has also made me ask the questions: Does the average climber push themselves hard enough mentally and take enough calculated risks? Wouldn't it be a good idea every now and then (providing we are confident placing gear) to just go for safe climbs a grade or too harder than we think we can lead,and just force ourselves into falling (or even better climbing out of our skins) What do you think?
I think most people do that to some extent.
As Mick says it's safer to improve your ability to do hard moves with a risk of falling onto bolts rather than trad gear.
There's a lot to be gained from good tactics as well.
In reply to Calder:
Why would your gear pop if it was well placed. If you place dodgy gear - don't fall. If your gear is all ok, there is no problem. The only way you will ever push your grade is by climbing at your limit, and in doing this, you are increasing the chance of a fall.
There are few routes under E1 that can't be adequately protected.
> (In reply to bendurance)
>
> correct me if i'm wrong, but surely its wise to have a healthy fear of falling. Who knows when that gear's gonna pop, or when you'll tw@t your head etc and so on...
>
> correct me if i'm wrong, but surely its wise to have a healthy fear of falling. Who knows when that gear's gonna pop, or when you'll tw@t your head etc and so on...
Why would your gear pop if it was well placed. If you place dodgy gear - don't fall. If your gear is all ok, there is no problem. The only way you will ever push your grade is by climbing at your limit, and in doing this, you are increasing the chance of a fall.
There are few routes under E1 that can't be adequately protected.
In reply to Jon Dittman:
Read Alj's reply - he placed gear, fell on it and was ok, but then it came out. You're not infallible - you could think your placement is great but it might not be. Its never 100%.
I don't climb to die. Yes - I'm all for pushing my grade and taking the odd calculated risk to make it exciting but making a habit of falling on gear is, to me, simply reckless.
Read Alj's reply - he placed gear, fell on it and was ok, but then it came out. You're not infallible - you could think your placement is great but it might not be. Its never 100%.
I don't climb to die. Yes - I'm all for pushing my grade and taking the odd calculated risk to make it exciting but making a habit of falling on gear is, to me, simply reckless.
In reply to Calder: I think the thing is theres a blurry line between being reckless and being so scared of falling that youre afraid to commit to moves. You dont plan to fall, but you have to have a certain amount of confidence in your gear, otherwise you would only ever do routes you have absolute confidence in your ability not to fall off, much as they used to do in the days of hemp ropes and "the leader must not fall"
In reply to Jon Dittman:
Not true. There are many poorly protected lower grade climbs
>
> There are few routes under E1 that can't be adequately protected.
> There are few routes under E1 that can't be adequately protected.
Not true. There are many poorly protected lower grade climbs
In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:
I have before - and will again - try routes that aren't bankers. Some I'll manage, some I won't - but on the ones that I don't I'd rather down-climb than try it and fall.
I was scrambling ropeless before I started climbing, and I did it with the attitude that I must not fall. To me its no different just because of a few metal wedges and rubber plimsolls. And if they could climb routes that are now considered E1-E2 in the late 50's/early 60's with hemp rope, nailed boots and a the aforementioned attitude then I don't see why it shouldn't be possible now - what with training, nutritionists and climbing walls etc.
It boils down to one thing as far as I can see -
Don't run before you can walk.
I have before - and will again - try routes that aren't bankers. Some I'll manage, some I won't - but on the ones that I don't I'd rather down-climb than try it and fall.
I was scrambling ropeless before I started climbing, and I did it with the attitude that I must not fall. To me its no different just because of a few metal wedges and rubber plimsolls. And if they could climb routes that are now considered E1-E2 in the late 50's/early 60's with hemp rope, nailed boots and a the aforementioned attitude then I don't see why it shouldn't be possible now - what with training, nutritionists and climbing walls etc.
It boils down to one thing as far as I can see -
Don't run before you can walk.
In reply to Calder:
Just to clarify my response to the OP - It appears he's done the time at VS and could well be ready for a step up. But I think he shouldn't get blasé about falling on his gear.
Just to clarify my response to the OP - It appears he's done the time at VS and could well be ready for a step up. But I think he shouldn't get blasé about falling on his gear.
In reply to bendurance:
Well done, but someone has to break the news that Joint Effort is overgraded: only really being a bog standard VS 5a with a crux start.
Well done, but someone has to break the news that Joint Effort is overgraded: only really being a bog standard VS 5a with a crux start.
In reply to Jon Dittman: Most routes can be adequately protected but only if you have the strength to hang on with one arm and the skill to place the right piece quickly.
In reply to Offwidth:
That's an interesting viewpoint. It's certainly not much harder than many other VSs on peak limestone - e.g. Skylight at High Tor or Porthole Wall at Willersley (both VS).
It seems that climbing VS on grit is a lot easier than VS on Peak lime.
That's an interesting viewpoint. It's certainly not much harder than many other VSs on peak limestone - e.g. Skylight at High Tor or Porthole Wall at Willersley (both VS).
It seems that climbing VS on grit is a lot easier than VS on Peak lime.
In reply to bendurance:
>>What do you think? perhaps most experienced climbers are doing this all the time and I am just the newly enlightened one.
IMO the majority of 'experienced' climbers go through a silly phase early on, fall off a few times ('properly' - i.e. 10 m or more), get away with it, then realise that they were very lucky and start to think a bit more about the consequences before launching out on routes that are at their physical limit and well above their gear. I had a couple of falls like yours where I scraped the ground from the top of grit outcrops whilst pushing my way through the HVS grade, before going the full height of One Way Ticket at Wimberry a year later and during the ensuing three-week-long headache, I decided that living was in most ways preferable to being dead....
I do know a few people who had very small falls and weren't lucky - they don't climb anymore.
Gravity doesn't care either way. If you put yourself in the firing line too often, you'll probably get shot.
>>What do you think? perhaps most experienced climbers are doing this all the time and I am just the newly enlightened one.
IMO the majority of 'experienced' climbers go through a silly phase early on, fall off a few times ('properly' - i.e. 10 m or more), get away with it, then realise that they were very lucky and start to think a bit more about the consequences before launching out on routes that are at their physical limit and well above their gear. I had a couple of falls like yours where I scraped the ground from the top of grit outcrops whilst pushing my way through the HVS grade, before going the full height of One Way Ticket at Wimberry a year later and during the ensuing three-week-long headache, I decided that living was in most ways preferable to being dead....
I do know a few people who had very small falls and weren't lucky - they don't climb anymore.
Gravity doesn't care either way. If you put yourself in the firing line too often, you'll probably get shot.
Sorry for another long post but some interesting comments. I should clarify I wasnt intending to lob off each time, just a combination of pushing my limit and not having climbed much recently. Neither is falling the aim here - but climbing with 100% commitment and reaching my potential definitely is.
I agree that falling after the first piece of gear isnt ideal, and as I landed so close to the ground I did make a mental note to be careful in that situation. (I am also aware that joint effort and numerous other climbs at Staden are slightly undergraded - didnt find it that hard just tried to place gear from a bad position). I am also sure I will still have some days where Im bricking it for no real reason.
I do maintain a healthy respect for falling, particularly close to the ground, above poor gear, ledges e.t.c. but I am confident that I can judge when I have placed a sound runner and other objective dangers. So I guess what Im saying is in the latter situation where the risk is minimal why not push the limit? Also for a lot of single pitch climbs you get a very good idea of how good the gear is going to be before you have to commit to it, so why not push your limit if you are confident you will be able to place good gear on the route.
Just in relation to sports climbing yes I appreciate it would be slightly safer to only fall on sports routes but I dont get much time to climb so spend most of it on trad, which I personally find more rewarding. I dont think taking falls on sports routes gets rid of your fear of falling on trad as confidence in the gear is the main issue.
I sympathise with people that have had accidents - being dropped on an indoor wall when I first started to climb and fracturing my ankle and wrist certainly put me off for a while. But there's normally a reason for them - in my case not teaching my sister to belay properly, but in other cases perhaps dodgy gear placements e.t.c.
I guess its about trying to objectivly assess each situation and whether or not you want "guranteed outcome climbing" which is fine (but I think less rewarding).
I agree that falling after the first piece of gear isnt ideal, and as I landed so close to the ground I did make a mental note to be careful in that situation. (I am also aware that joint effort and numerous other climbs at Staden are slightly undergraded - didnt find it that hard just tried to place gear from a bad position). I am also sure I will still have some days where Im bricking it for no real reason.
I do maintain a healthy respect for falling, particularly close to the ground, above poor gear, ledges e.t.c. but I am confident that I can judge when I have placed a sound runner and other objective dangers. So I guess what Im saying is in the latter situation where the risk is minimal why not push the limit? Also for a lot of single pitch climbs you get a very good idea of how good the gear is going to be before you have to commit to it, so why not push your limit if you are confident you will be able to place good gear on the route.
Just in relation to sports climbing yes I appreciate it would be slightly safer to only fall on sports routes but I dont get much time to climb so spend most of it on trad, which I personally find more rewarding. I dont think taking falls on sports routes gets rid of your fear of falling on trad as confidence in the gear is the main issue.
I sympathise with people that have had accidents - being dropped on an indoor wall when I first started to climb and fracturing my ankle and wrist certainly put me off for a while. But there's normally a reason for them - in my case not teaching my sister to belay properly, but in other cases perhaps dodgy gear placements e.t.c.
I guess its about trying to objectivly assess each situation and whether or not you want "guranteed outcome climbing" which is fine (but I think less rewarding).
In reply to bendurance:
Hi bendurance,
Glad you posted that as some above got the wrong end of the stick, although you did clearly state in your initial post that you fell whilst going for it and didn't jump.
Great posts.
Thank you.
Mick
Hi bendurance,
Glad you posted that as some above got the wrong end of the stick, although you did clearly state in your initial post that you fell whilst going for it and didn't jump.
Great posts.
Thank you.
Mick
In reply to Offwidth:
Sadly I'd have to agree. The Mall at Millstone felt a good bit harder & thats only VS4c.
Ditto Fern Crack.
Sadly I'd have to agree. The Mall at Millstone felt a good bit harder & thats only VS4c.
Ditto Fern Crack.
In reply to bendurance:
That's a good attitude to have. Not committing fully to moves makes you more likely to fall off and stops you from being able to climb at your limit. Though I've only taken a few falls they gave me more confidence in my gear and I'm happier now to embark on committing sequences, knowing that I have good protection in (obviously usual disclaimers apply about poor gear/potential things to hit etc). It's helped me climb harder but more importantly I get more satisfaction from doing a route at the top of my ability than one within my comfort zone.
> I should clarify I wasnt intending to lob off each time, just a combination of pushing my limit and not having climbed much recently. Neither is falling the aim here - but climbing with 100% commitment and reaching my potential definitely is.
That's a good attitude to have. Not committing fully to moves makes you more likely to fall off and stops you from being able to climb at your limit. Though I've only taken a few falls they gave me more confidence in my gear and I'm happier now to embark on committing sequences, knowing that I have good protection in (obviously usual disclaimers apply about poor gear/potential things to hit etc). It's helped me climb harder but more importantly I get more satisfaction from doing a route at the top of my ability than one within my comfort zone.
In reply to Removed User:
Ah, but fern crack (rightly) gets HVS in the new stanage guide.
joint effort is at the lower end of the HVS grade and most VSs on lime are towards the top of the grade (mainly due to being polished to f**k).
Ah, but fern crack (rightly) gets HVS in the new stanage guide.
joint effort is at the lower end of the HVS grade and most VSs on lime are towards the top of the grade (mainly due to being polished to f**k).
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...