UKC

I usually have no sympathy with thise who bang on about London media bias and think that snobbery in the press is less and less prevalent and accusations of such are usually the result of chippy northeners persecution complexes! However, I found myself very angry reading Tony Wilson's obituary in the Telegraph last night. I thought after it started by going on about his pretentiousness it would then go on to talk about his achievements but these were given scant coverage and most things were tinged with negativity ("he scrapped a third", focusing on the drugs and gangs at the Hacienda when that was only a tiny part of things and nothing to do with him). Did anyone else read it and think it was a bit of a hatchet job?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/13/db1302.xml

In reply to Tyler: oh well, thats the telegraph for you. "telegraph found to be snobbish" would rank alongside "pope catholic" for a headline

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

Good point. I was just wondering aloud because I don't read many obituaries and wondered whether it was usual to have them written by people who obviously do not like their subject or whether they are ususally a bit more affectionate. It's not as if TW was a brutual dictator but generally a force for the good, hugely influential and I'm sure they could have got someone to write something a bit ncer. I'd be interested to compare it with an obituary for Malcom MacLaren (I realise the practical difficulties of doing this!)

In reply to Tyler:

I'm more concerned about this rabid but ever so hip enthusiasm for the "manc scene" that all the coffin chasers seem to have suddenly acquired. And how almost everyone on UKC used to be a regular at the Hacienda... Same as the Who, Live at Leeds, the gig EVERYBODY claims to have been at.

And just like when Peel died, Wilson's importance is being so overblown it's unreal.

In reply to Tyler:

I love a good obituary. Especially the rip-rollocking military ones they have in the Telegraph.

They often come down quite hard on the individual concerned. If you want a balanced view of an individual it's best to read a few different ones.

In reply to Tyler: Having just read it, it does read as though its been written by someone that actively disliked him.

An obituary is a place to describe a person, their life and achievements and to put them in context, amongst other things. This obituary reads as though the author is getting one over on the subject knowing that there's no way he can answer back. Shame on you Telegraph, for commissioning and publishing such a poor piece.

T.

In reply to blueshound:

What are you on about? The thread on here had 22 replies. Loose the chip.

In reply to Tyler:
Yep, it read's like a hatchet job. I don't think that just cos someone has died you should air-brush all their imperfections (Diana Syndrome), but this piece doesn't seem well balanced.

Given the character of Tony Wilson, it's fairly obvious he upset at lot of people at one time or another, and that they are probably the sort of people who would end up writing obits in Torygraph !

In reply to blueshound:


I've noticed that! It's like when Liverpool won the Champions League, every scouser I've ever met was there! It is possible that lots of people did go to the Hacienda as it was open for many years so anyone who ever went to a club in Mnc during those ears is likely to have gone.


I agree about john Peel, I never understood it, he just put some records on but I disagree about TW because

a) I think there has been relatively little written about him and his influence
b) He was as improtant as most other non-performing music figures you could think of.

In reply to Tyler:

It's gone up to a 2:2 when you get to the Guardian...

T.

In reply to Tyler: Certainly reads like a hatchet job, yes he could be a pretentious tw*t (I think has referred to himself in such terms) and I remember when he stopped being Tony and became Anthony H Wilson, but this was only a small part of him and his achievements.

I met him a couple of times through some friends of my wife, I was fairly indifferent to him as a person, but there is absolutely no doubting the impact he had on music in Britain (not just Manchester).

In reply to blueshound:
Are there many people on UKC claiming to be regulars at the Hacienda ? But as it was a club that ran for 15 years, I guess I lot of people did go there once or twice

I may have been a Joy Division/NewOrder/Mondays/Roses fan, but I never went to the Hacienda - never wanted to, never claimed to have done. Never went to Gatecrasher either, even though it's just round the corner !

In reply to Tyler: What annoyed me about it is that Wilson's painted as a vacuous, empty offering who lived on ego and was famous for only arrogance. The last line of the opening paragraph is typical, talking about him "enjoying a resurgence of notoriety" when the film was released.

It's almost as though the value of his contribution is consciously overlooked - Happy Mondays and New Order are given a paragraph between them, and most of that's about crack habits - to give this skewed vision of his popularity!

Ironic that there are so many talentless celebs out there who should be given this obit. as soon as possible, but the author decided to slate Mr Manchester.

In reply to blueshound: I went to see Vinni Reilly play a gig in manchester cathedral about 10 years ago. Odd venue but it really worked. And the person I was with hissed at me "theres tony wilson over in the corner!" And we muttered derisively at each other "what a wanker!", whilst secretly thinking "wow".

In reply to Tyler:

Funny I didn't think it was too bad actually......The Torygraph obit that is.
Thing is, AHW would probably have enjoyed the piece more than some of the more slobbering, sycophantic obits as if he was aware more than most of the more ridiculous elements of his character that demanded sending up.

I would take issue with those now dissing AHW and Peely. In an age of bland mediocrity when our culture is defined by Rupert Murdoch/ITV junk TV. Appalling chart music...computer games...Hollywood blockbuster shite and the cult of the celeb. These two great northerners championed left field music even in the face of hostility from the big labels and their tame media purveyors.

Great guys in a grey world.

In reply to Jonno:


The thing about Peel though, is that he'd "champion" anything and EVERYTHING he was sent in, demos, remnant bins from record shops, obscure rarities, the worse the production value the better, and if there was an "efnick" element, WOW, he'd probably play it twice in a row! Outstanding!
Hardly surprising he'd pick a winner now and again, people seem to forget his shows were 95% crap, 5% OK.

(Or to look at it in another way, 95% the Fall, 5% Captain Beefheart).

In reply to Tyler:

Ahem, and Pele just kicked a ball around!!! What made Peel special was the kind of records he put on, the bands he brought exposure to. I dicovered a sh*tload of bloody good music via Peel's shows that I would never have heard on any other radio show. I don't know what he was like as a person, but as a DJ he was pretty adventurous and unafraid to experiment.

In reply to Jonno:


Up to a point, I wasn't that fond of the fella's personality myself but this obit concentrates on tht whilst giving scant regard to his achievements. It's not even as if he was in it for the money.

In reply to blueshound:


At last I have become "hip"! At 45! I've been trying for all those years and then it suddenly arrives, delivered along with a snub!
As an aside... I wouldn't describe my enthusiasm for the "manc scene" as rabid, more restrained by the fact that I live in London and it seems populated by a considerable number of people who are allergic to all things northern. Not really a problem for me... when I lived up north there were as many folk atagonistic towards southerners. Two areas of popular culture seem to set the hackles on edge, namely music and footie.

In reply to blueshound:

I think you are wrong to be as dismissive of both Wilson and Peel. You are talking about two of the most important breakers of new music last century. I do wonder what folk would have to do to impress you? Regardless of whether any of the music was to your taste you can't ignore their significance to UK culture. They promoted both great music and crap music, but at least they stuck their necks out for what they loved.

Davie

In reply to Wee Davie:

I completely take your points.


But you are only saying that because the music they touted appeals to YOU.
I much preferred Feargal Sharkey's solo output.

In reply to blueshound:

No he didn't. He was very selective. The selection criterion was: he had to like it.

95% The fall and 5% Beefheart sounds like a good 100% to me.

Without Peel from 67 to the early 90s, the cultural world we live in would be completely different.

In reply to blueshound:

No he didn't. He was very selective. The selection criterion was: he had to like it.

95% The fall and 5% Beefheart sounds like a good 100% to me.

Without Peel's input from '67 to the early '90s, the cultural world we live in would be completely different.

In reply to blueshound:



There are two people on the other thread who have actually mentioned going to the Hacienda. I was one of them and for that I apologise to anyone whom I may have upset, especially you Blueshound.

Cheers

The Ent ™

In reply to blueshound:

John Peel shows definitely were hard work at times but regularly finding stuff you liked was worth the effort.
I'd rather be challenged by radio than bored to tears.

Davie

In reply to Enty:

!!!
I'm not upset chum?!

In reply to blueshound: well I was there a lot from 86 on so that makes 3 dubious poseurs

you must be old enough (says 35 on your profile) to remember how difficult it was to hear new or different music up until pretty much the 90s. With very limited radio, no internet, the hassle of taping etc if your interests were anything but mainstream you relied on word of mouth, the guys in the local record shop and, with a very large dose of salt, the music press. Peely was the only person regularly airing new, different, very diverse and occasionally challenging (OK crap) stuff. Entire sub-genres could pass you by if you didn't hear them on JP he gave a lot of artists and styles the exposure to at least get a fair chance at sinking or swimming. He also did a lot to combat the tribalism and narrow tastes inherent in music at the time by exposing his listeners to all sorts outside their normal fields. His influence WAS huge.

As for Tony W, I for one will remember him fondly, warts and all - a nasty obit in the Tele and a nice one in the Grauniad - what more could a boy hope for?

cheers, P

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

Yep, I'm 35. I was lucky enough to grow up surrounded by hippies, weirdos, fringe dwellers, older types etc, and was exposed to a lot of "out there" music from an early age. I remember I used to fall asleep with Peel on the radio, I was always more into the "weird" stuff he'd play, and not the punk stuff and the so called world music, which I just find tedious. This has stayed with me, although my tastes are much more wide than they were, and informed by various locations, life experiences etc.

Tony didn't do anything for me musically, but he did make me chuckle a bit when he appeared on TV.

In reply to blueshound:

I can confirm absolutely that Tyler HAS been to the Hacienda.

In reply to Enty: sorry Blueshound- I went to the Haceinda as well. For which I apologise unreservedly. There were a lot of Mancs around tho..

In reply to Tyler:

Not like scousers to jump on the glory bandwagon!

>It is possible that lots of people did go to the Hacienda as it was open for many years so anyone who ever went to a club in Mnc during those ears is likely to have gone.

I was in Manc when the Hacienda was still open and I never went. I did however go to a couple of free squat-parties there a few years ago just before it was turned into yuppie flats. Good parties too, I seem to recall one of them turning into a riot when hundreds of people tried to force their way in past the cops.

In reply to Tyler:


Yes...the Evertonians were out in force that day !