UKC

a query(thoughts?) on a situation observed rather than experienced.
at a local quarry last week, climber that i knew was leading a route at the opposite side of the quarry to us. quarry was quite busy as a local club had come down.
soloist picks his way up the line next to my buddy, than traverses across above him and finishes up my buddy's line.

now i've no problem with anyone soloing, but surely it's only ok because the risk is inherent to yourself. as soon as you go above someone else you risk a problem to them because;
i) you fall
ii) you dislodge debris
iii) you don't actually have any idea of their ability and so how close to their limit they are. you're actions could be enough distraction to give them a problem.

i'm sure said soloist would say that they were not going to fall, but surely as soon as it impacts on another climber, not in your group, it is no longer your call?

thoughts please...

In reply to The Fox:

Soloist's a bit of an arse.

jcm

In reply to The Fox:
I went out to do some soloing on Sunday and did almost the same by accident.

I started climbing a line to the right of a guy halfway through leading and through not looking at a guide book found I wasn't quite good enough to finish directly and traversed across above the guy leading. I did say sorry and scampered off embarrassed at not finishing the intended route and no doubt p1ss1ng of the chap next to me, anyway I do think its very poor etiquette and won't be soloing so close to anyone in the future.

In reply to The Fox:
I also think not only dangerous but very off putting for the person below

In reply to mic_b:

<Ethics>

It's not soloing when there's somebody else at the crag Just climbing without any protection.

</Ethics>

In reply to The Fox:

Falls off, knocks leader off injuring him, negligence case leading to court action and maybe bankruptcy of the soloist. Not a good result, do not do it.

In reply to The Fox:

Soloing should be done away from others, IMO. Apart from anything else, you don't need the distraction of worrying about other people. Same with leading above someone else, of course. I once had a falling leader nearly knock me off, after wandering off his route on to a higher bit of my route.

In reply to The Fox: On a similar note at stanage yesterday some impatient git started leading a route whilst my second was only halfway up, eventually he got within 1ft of my second, i dont think he realised ropes stretch when you load them and he could've been nocked off if my second had fallen.

In reply to Eddie1234:

God I hate that. I was always tempted to stand around and enjoy the view in those circumstances, or spend a few moments longer than strictly necessary on a 'jammed' nut.

In reply to The Fox: the problem with climbing in busy areas is; a great deal of people who climb are dysfunctional gits

In reply to johnj:


Ha, ha. I was at the packed Cromlech boulders on Sunday for half an hour marvelling at how the scene[1] had developed in the last 10 years.

How true your words ring. There was a bunch of chancers there with expensive photographic gear, no climbing skills whatsoever, posing from the lips of problems. Not doing anyone any harm, but WTF?

[1] I use the word scene. For that is surely what it was.

In reply to The Fox: soloist was in the wrong - should have waited while route clear, he may not think he going to fall BUT we know they do

In reply to The Fox:

Many years ago a mate of mine fell, only a short way onto the rope, but enough to knock off and kill a soloist who had been "tailgating" him.

Soloists who get too close to others are not only a menace to them but also themselves.

In reply to hutchm: I'll remember those tricks for the future.I made sure they saw my look of utter disgust and overhear me call them 'impatient wankers' not that it helped in anyway at all but i made be feel better.

In reply to Eddie1234:

I can't see the pleasure in leading a route with a fantastic view of someone's struggling arse, anyway.

In reply to Trangia:

That's an awful thing to have experienced, I hope your friend got over it. I can imagine someone suffering from some guilt complex even when it was not even reomtely their fault. My heart goes out to your friend.

cheers all, pretty much along the lines of what i thought...

In reply to The Fox: very bad manners really, shouldn't do it - like you say, even dust being kicked down can be off putting.

In reply to The Fox:

If someone did that to me I'd be going to find them after and have a word.

Tailgating up routes is a bad show too. I had it happen to us on The Green Streak at Stanage. Some old kn*b climbing a couple of feet below my second. There were stacks of other routes free. I made sure I took an adequate time to clear my belay and give him a firm glance.

In reply to The Fox:

Was at birchen a few weeks ago and saw what can only be described as an embarassing scene on Trafalgar Wall.

Group of four beginners were top-roping trafalgar crack when a leader from another party started out on barnacle bulge crossing the top rope and continuing up the wall.
Topropers had to pull their rope up andover the leaders line for the next person to come up.

There was an exchange of words (not very polite) but it was just too embarassing for words (especially as they were the only two groups on the crag apart from ourselves).

I just couldn't understand the impatience of what appeared to be an experienced leader setting such a bad example of crag etiquette (or lack thereof).

In reply to catt:


So you clearly didn't 'have a word', like half the willy-waving hardmen one here you talk the talk and then shit yourself!!

He probably mistook your 'firm glance' for a look of admiration and lust!

In reply to The Fox:

I enjoy soloing at certain crags but this is one of my pet hates on the crag for 2 reasons.

Firstly - the obvious danger of falling onto the party below as previously mentioned.

Secondly - if someone has struggled to lead a route and then someone comes along and solos it straight after them - this can sometimes be an egotistical putdown of the leaders abilities (look at me soloing - Im a better climber than you)

In reply to catt:



...round the head with a size 10 sheepkiller?

In reply to popebenedictus:

I expect he was pissed off with beginners setting up their top-rope on a classic route. Hard to think why that could be.....

jcm

In reply to hutchm:

Well it depends who you're following

In reply to balmybaldwin: I'd follow Kylie up the indian face...

In reply to twm.bwen:

It affected him a lot more than he ever admitted. He said that the look of disbelief on the soloists face as he hit him is something that haunted him for years.

In reply to Anonymous:

Were you the old k*ob? You certainly fit the k*ob description.

In reply to The Fox:

Several years ago we were unfortunate enough to be right next to a falling soloist at Stanage (he fell off Bishop's Route(? - the 3* severe right of Inverted V). He hadn't endangered anyone else. As we attended the damaged soloist another soloist literally stepped over the shocked, damaged and bleeding casualty and soloed up the VS crack directly above his head. Now there's a first class w**nker.

In reply to catt: Better to be a knob than a hardman from distance who DOESN'T do what he says mr 'have a word' and lingering homo-erotic 'firm-glance'.

Tosser!

In reply to Anonymous: I think you're the tosser, hurl insults but too scared to show who you are

In reply to Anonymous:

I get it! You are not a k*ob, but a wee ned, you just go around antagonising people for the hell of it. You are a fine example of why anonymous posting should be banned.

In reply to catt: It's not antagonism,it's pointing out that you state that you would 'have a word' and then ALL you did was a 'firm glance', not even a hard stare.

In reply to Flying Monkey: With that profile pic you're not exactly easily identifiable are you,cap and shades and then you're nickname.

It used to be easier to spot my neighbours in the Readers Wives section of Escort!

In reply to Anonymous:
But I'm not calling people tossers under Anonymous. Plus there are links to photos of me on my profile anyway so I'm hardly hiding. I think this conversation is over.

In reply to Flying Monkey:

Please have some pity, Anonymous suffers from Anorchia.

In reply to Flying Monkey: Fair enough,I'll apologise to you for any offence I may have caused,but Catt can do one! All I did was point out that he says he'd have a word and when the chance came he gave a firm glance.

I didn't anonymously call him a tosser until he started calling me a knob.

Norrie on the other hand is clearly up for a bit of anonymous baiting since I asked him a question that he took exception to.

In reply to Flying Monkey: I think I've explained why and to be fair I feel it wasn't particularly out of order in light of the explanation.

I guess we just have different ideas of what constitutes tossing.

In reply to Anonymous:

You clearly did not understand my first post. Try reading it again and using comprehension.

In reply to Anonymous:

You didn't cause me offence per se, but you called my mate a tosser

In reply to catt:
Yep, was going to point that out to him but figured that was your court!

In reply to catt: So they'd have to solo over you to get you to have a word,but if they tailgate,they merely get a firm glance.

I apologise unreservedly for misunderstanding your scale of response for people who have upset you in some way. I guess pissing you off on the internet must be really bad as you call them a kn*b if they do that!

In reply to David Hooper:



reckon there was a degree of that going on too.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
funny, but if you read the original post you'll see that the other climbers at the crag were leading...

In reply to EarlyBird:


Unbelievable, truly...

In reply to The Fox:

Saw it with my own eyes...although I couldn't quite believe them.

In reply to The Fox:

I wasn't replying to the OP but some later tale about beginners at Birchens.

Re the Stanage soloist, a friend of mine once had a party dislodge rocks on to him from Puffin at Gogarth, fracturing a vertebra or two. As he lay on the path in pain waiting for the helicopter, this party came down and back round to get their kit, stepped over his body with the words 'sorry about that', and departed. Classy.

ALthough actually once a certain number of people are attending this kind of incident, more don't really do any good, so although going on climbing seems a bit callous it probably doesn't make much difference. One would think a detour round the actual corpse was called for, though.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I agree; a large gathering of people around the victim is akin to crawling lanes of traffic ogling road accidents - however, this guy actually climbed a route directly above the casualty. If the soloist had fallen the casualty would not have been able to get out of the way, and I suspect his injuries would have been aggravated if he had fulfilled the role of crash mat for this pillock.

With reference to the "crawling traffic" analogy; several years ago we were climbing at the Roaches on a grey Monday - apart from myself and my partner the only other human being to be seen was a boulderer. This boulderer had a fall that resulted in a compound fracture to his shin (I discovered after responding to his cries for help). By the time I got back to him, after going to alert the rescue services (this was in the days before the ubiquity of mobile phones) he was surrounded by about twenty people who had appeared from nowhere, including one sensitive soul with a video camera recording his suffering for posterity.

In reply to The Fox: I was leading Pedestal route at the roaches when some pillock started up Technical slab. Anyone who knows the roaches will be aware that these two routes meet at about 3/4 hight. As i was leading at the limit of my grade at the time i waited at the overhang on a bombers bit of gear. He then started th climb the overhang removing my gear to place his own.

A very stupid and dangerous practice.

Patience is a virtue.

In reply to Baldone:

That's unbelievable. Interesting situation though- pillock climber removes patient climber's gear, patient climber then falls off and dies. Manslaughter? Murder?

In reply to simonbarrow:

it just goes to show that there are @?$%* in all walks of life

In reply to The Fox: Theres no excuse for climbing directly above someone else no mater what the situation (solo or not) its just RUDE!! not to mention dangosous!

In reply to The Fox:

Not etiqette related to soloing, but just got back from a week on Lundy. Not enough climbing for me personally, as I was laid low for several days by a bug that was going around the island.

However, our group seemed to be plagued by encounters with another group (one person in particular, but with a couple of different partners over the week).

First day out we were at the Battery, doing climbs on Battery Rib and on the Flying Buttress area. One of our teams was a rope of 3 on Diamond Solitaire when a pair came right on through them, causing problems with the ropework . Words were had.

Next day, we were on Devil's Slide. My pair was on the Slide itself. A couple of our mates were on Albion, with the leader taking a sitting stance just at the point where the vertical sidewall disappears. A pair, containing one of the same people from the previous day, was on Satan's Slip. The leader came across onto Albion about halfway up the rope between my leading mate and his second. Wouldn't have been so bad if he'd taken a stance there, or below my mate, but he insisted on climbing over my mate and into the "bay" just below the final headwall of the climb. He then set up so that his ropes were running tight on my mate, who managed to slip them under his bum so that he wasn't actually being crushed against the face by them, but again at the cost of good rope management for both parties. If the other party's leader had take an intermediate stance for maybe 10 minutes, while our party's second had come up, there's have been no problem.

Again, words were had.

Then on Friday, we had a group on Beaufort Buttress when this bloke turned up with his lady and started to rig an ab rope right down one of the Severes. Two of our people at the top informed him that we had a pair below just about to start that climb, and also that it was possible to scramble all the way down without an ab, but he was determined to go and our lads, not being up for physical violence, could only watch as he lobbed his rope down and abbed in. Spoiled the climb for our guys as his ab rope was right down the line of the climb throughout. They did take the opportunity to jam it as hard as possible nto several cracks on the way up. Hopefully he had a bit of bother retrieving it!

This guy is sponsored by a gear company, is a former MRT member and has a lot of experience (always supposing he was telling the truth). He should have known better, especially since our guys made it clear on each occasion that what he was doing "wasn't on". He just came across as someone who was selfish and impatient and determined to do what he'd planned to do while completely ignoring anyone "in the way".

In reply to Rob Naylor:

That sounds crap Rob, why not give his name, after all it si a matter of fact, not whispers and then he can answer back. The least you should do is tell the gear company, give his name and say you will not use their gear till they get rid of him. should they not give us the gear companies name in a month so everyone can boycott them as well.

In reply to Rob Naylor: If someone chucks an ab rope down a climb you're about to do (without receiving your consent), then the thing to do is tie the ends of the rope way over to the side under as much tension as possible (or away from the edge on maybe a tree). When challenged, all you're doing is putting the ropes out of your way.

Of course this may not be possible at the bottom of a seacliff, try and be inventive.

In reply to Michael Hood:


Tie a few pounds of soggy seaweed into the rope about 15 foot up. Will that do?

In reply to sutty:

I don't know his name, or I would name him. I know he was in RAF Leuchars MRT for a time and is sponsored by (or at least gets gear from) Berghaus. Apparently he features in some of their publicity/ catalogue shots (I'd asked him why he looked familiar).

Seemed a perfectly pleasant guy off the rock, but seemed to get the blinkers on once he had his sights set on something (too many Alpine seasons?).

In reply to The Fox: give them 1 chance and smile and say excuse me.next time tell them their faults, next time tell them to f off, or your gonna cut their ropes ,bum their dads and shag their hamsters.

In reply to Chris Tan.Clone II:
If there is nobody else there, how can we be sure it was completed?
Does a tree make a sound if there is nobody there to hear it?
Hmmmm wise you are.

In reply to The Fox: Plenty of different situations in this thread:
- OP's original scenario - soloist definitely in the wrong (however I can think of one situation where this would be ok - but then there would have been suitable communication between leader and soloer).
- People climbing up yer bum - start to wobble, shout for tight rope, cry, slow down, put on a show, fart - if that doesn't cause them to leave suitable distance then they are complete a**eholes.
- Soloist who died after being fallen on - reaped the consequences of his own actions - bit harsh but nobody else to blame - an unecessary tradegy all round really.

It all just comes down to a bit of consideration and communication. I do a fair bit of soloing on grit; if a party is about to do a route I'm after then I'll wait, maybe go off and do another route then come back. I don't want their experience to be belittled by me cruising (hopefully) up a route that they might then struggle on. Sometimes they'll ask me if I want to go first, sometimes I'll accept, but only after checking that they're totally ok with it (rather than just feeling pressured about possibly holding somebody up). And if I'm following behind someone - just as when I'm leading, I'll make sure there's a sufficient gap so that the person ahead doesn't feel rushed, which usually means waiting until they're virtually finished.

In reply to Rob Naylor: I wasn't aware that any of the gear companies sponsor people who climb severe. I suspect he was just a loudmouthed liar.

In reply to John2:

Possibly, but he seemed to be climbing with considerably less experienced people. We did see him on some E numbers with a different partner.