UKC

Did anyone see the review in Climber Magazine by Ed Douglas of Heinrich Harrer's autobiography (Beyond Seven Years in Tibet)that has just come out in English?

I felt that there was to much emphasis on his membership of the Nazi party in the review. It was only 18 months of his life!

I feel that he was genuinely changed by his sevean years in Tibet. God, anyone would be after an experience like that.

Harrer did an amazing number of other things after Tibet. It is unbeleivable how he packed so much in!

In reply to GuruClimber: how many times must this apologist old canard be rolled out? Harrer was a hard line dyed in the wool Nazi. He joined the SA on his own initiative in 1933 at a time when it was illegal and indeed traitorous for an Austrian to do so - not unakin to IRA membership say in the 1980s. As such he was an early adopter member of a fringe extremist race hate, already violent and pro-war political movement. There is NO excuse for this - he was Nazi to the core. It is utterly fictitious and a marvellous feat of propaganda and rewriting of history that many believe the nice guy mountaineer virtually forced to join the SS story that has been repeated so often. This was fully uncovered in the 1970s IIRC but people in climbing seem to have ignored it

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

I do not believe it is true that Harrer joined the SA in 1933.

Is there any proof that he did so?

I believe Harrer in his statement that on his marriage application he stated that he was an old party member to speed up the process that took a long time becasue of his SS membership. He joined in 1938 soon after Austria was taken over.

Yes he probably was a Nazi supporter which he downplayed later. But you have to take it in the context of the time. He definetely didn't do any thing and was not a war criminal as he was in Asia during the whole war. Remember the policies of the Nazis changed over time, and not everyone in Germany at the time knew everything they were up to.

In reply to GuruClimber: possibly also worth noting that he appears not to be at all racist in the book, whereas you would imagine a nazi may not have had a lot of time for asian people such as the tibetans? hardly aryan are they?
i also listened to the interview on the bbc archives from 1953 and the same holds true.
i would tend to think he was not a "died in the wool nazi", but obviously i could be wrong.

In reply to GuruClimber:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Harrer#Nazi_involvement

In reply to Paul Atkinson: You quote Wikipedia? Nuff said

In reply to Steve Parker: i imagine that his photo being taken with hitler was a result of his victory in the world dowhill skiing event, rather than their being mates.

wikipedia is notorious for being inaccurate as well btw.

In reply to Fawksey: I have never looked at Wikipedia on the subject but have followed it for decades as the story and obfuscations emerged - as I recall without checking, the Nazi archives now residing in Washington revealed the truth to a German journalist in the 70s - Harrer then suddenly remembered that the story he had been telling since the war was totally untrue and made up a new set of lies which still failed to explain the facts

In reply to Paul Atkinson: What atrocities committed by the Nazi party do you believe he was complicit in?

In reply to Fawksey: I know he didn't get the chance to get involved in Barbarossa but given his prior history I'm sure he would have enjoyed himself. Of course he didn't do anything. But he was clearly a big fan of the filthy anti-semitic hate ridden war-mongering Nazi ideology and not just one of the crowds swept along by the times who later looked back in horror. People espousing the beliefs he stood for from an early stage were as repugnant to decent people world wide in the 1930s as post war - you didn't need the spectacle the camps to see it.

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

lot of assumptions going on for someone who spent most of his time climbing and the whole of the war on the sidelines.

In reply to Fawksey: the first bit was me playing "ask a silly question...."

Of course he spent the war out of the way but I don't think what you are suggesting might be far fetched assumptions are anything of the sort - for an Austrian to go out of their way to join the SA at the time he did suggests major, almost reckless, enthusiasm and the party agenda was there on a plate, not hidden behind nice words to allow any excuse of ignorance later on. Good people didn't get involved, hardly even in Germany at that stage but certainly not extravagantly and illegally in Austria. Free will and all that. If his story re joining the SS later on at the height of the Third Reich were true then one would be a hard man to condemn him; but then it just isn't.

White Spider - great book
Harrer - Nazi scumbag

cheers, P

In reply to fxceltic:


The inaccuracy has been hugely exaggerated. Every entry is scrutinised and checked regularly. They certainly don't often make mistakes as serious as saying someone joined the SA in 1933 when he didn't. That's the bit I posted it for, as someone was questioning it above.

In reply to Paul Atkinson: can we be certain he joined the nazi party in 1933? If so what was the nazi party's manifesto? Im not aware that at that time it included the murdering of 6 million jews amongst other things.

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

Must be said, he was only 21 when he joined the SA. That's young enough to make stupid mistakes or get carried away with daft ideas or rebelliousness. He may well have regretted it like feck later, as he said. Seems a bit presumptuous to condemn him outright.

In reply to Steve Parker: I thought and believe that his explanation that it allowed him to go climbing easier if he was a member of the party. How many UK climbers accepted Thatchers shilling (The Dole) in the 70's and 80's to further their climbing.
Certainly Steve Bancroft, Dirty Derek, Strappo, Nick Colton and many others, nobody would accuse them of being dyed in the wool Thatcherites!

In reply to Steve Parker: I agree to an extent, folly of youth etc and nearly everybody deserves a second chance, but he went on to lie about it throughout his entire life and to create new layers and twists well in to old age when so many others had long since achieved atonement and he could so readily have done the same. Why?

One rather specific thing about the NSDAP was its core ideology of racial hatred and the need to subjugate the untermenschen - that was a very ugly thing to subscribe to even allowing for historical context. Those who would commit similar atrocities for Stalin were at least following a stated agenda which appeared humanitarian and could claim to have been conned; no such get out clause exists for Hitler's enthusiastic early supporters. Later developments - the remilitarisation of the Rhine land etc etc - certainly brought in much more "secular" less ideological nationalist support but that was not what the SA was about in the early 30s

In reply to Al Evans:

That isn't an even remotely similar comparison.

In reply to Al Evans: To abuse the generosity of Thatcher so as to go climbing is sickening. I hope that in the future their climbing legacy is balanced against their workshy attitude.

In reply to Mark Sheridan:


Explain why not please, that isn't even remotely an answer that I can reply to.

In reply to Al Evans:

Because claiming the dole in the eighties didn't have a political motive behind it.

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

When I read his stuff, there is a sense that he believes there are different national characters. For instance in The White Spider, he states that the north face of the Eiger doesn't suit the Italian temprament. This isn't an idea you could get away with now, but in the 1930's? Maybe.

Also he talks alot about the importance of will power, which is pretty Nietzchian, and therefore, a bit Nazi, but hardly worth lynching him over. Tbh, a lot of mountaineers would prolly agree that will power is an extremely important issue in why some mountaineers fail and others suceed. Does that make them Nazis.

However, the over whelming sense I get from reading his stuff is his humanity and internationalism. He doesn't read like a Nazi. I think on balance he's probably done a lot more good in his life than bad stuff, and probably a good deal more than his pious detractors.

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

Is it relevant here that the Dalai Lama is widely considered very un-Nazi in outlook, that he knew Harrer well and could presumably judge his character better than any poster here, that he considered Harrer a personal friend, and that he was willing to pay tributes such as "His love and respect for the Tibetan people are clearly evident in his writtings and his talks.[. . .] We Tibetans will always remember Heinrich Harrer and will miss him greatly."? http://www.dalailama.com/news.14.htm

In reply to Paul Atkinson:
>but he went on to lie about it throughout his entire life and to create new layers and twists well in to old age when so many others had long since achieved atonement and he could so readily have done the same. Why?
No idea, but it could as easily have been a deep sense of shame and embarrassment as anything more pernicious. Given his later reputation, it seems reasonable to suppose he might have felt deeply humiliated by his past. It might have been naive to try to hide it, but it's not necessarily incriminating. Others have done exactly the same thing.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Agree totally. Can't imagine the Dalai Lama getting it wrong. And didn't Simon Wiesenthal also give Harrer a clean bill of health re Nazism? Again, not a man prone to getting things wrong.

Mick

In reply to Mark Sheridan:

Exactly, and neither did Harrer's membership of the party, both were methods of acheiving climbing goals.

In reply to Coel Hellier: well the Dalai Lama is a frightfully nice chap you know - I don't think he's even on record saying anything horrid about Mao - certainly not one to hold a bit of Nazism against someone in the grand scheme of eternity. It goes with the territory. Regarding Wiesenthal I'd be very interested in a reference (will look myself too)

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

I think he probably has strategic political reasons for not criticising Mao.

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

I did some searching for you;

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20060108/ai_n15993946
Which contains; "Simon Wiesenthal, the famed Nazi hunter who died last year, said Mr. Harrer was not involved in politics and was innocent of wrongdoing."


http://www.cordee.co.uk/CNB029.php
This contains the following interesting text:
"Harrer always protested that he had only involved himself with the Nazis for the pragmatic purpose of furthering his climbing career. "Well, I was young. I was, I admit it, extremely ambitious and I was asked if I would become the teacher of the SS at skiing," was his explanation. "I have to say I jumped at the chance. I also have to say that if the Communist party had invited me I would have joined. And if the very Devil had invited me I would have gone with the Devil." He claimed to have only worn his SS uniform once - at his first wedding. Harrer had powerful allies to back his side of the story; the famed Nazi war-criminal-hunter Simon Wiesenthal vouched for Harrer's character as did his old friend the saintly Dalai Lama, who also who opened a museum in Hüttenburg celebrating his former tutor's life."

Anyway, has anyone read Harrer's autbiography?

What do you think about it (all parts apart for the Nazi controversy)?

I thought that it was a real page turner. The man led an absolutely facinating life and managed to pack in a great number of expeditions after his time in Tibet.

In reply to GuruClimber:

I read The White Spider a few weeks ago which I hugely enjoyed. Not read his autobiography yet, but I probably will.

In reply to GuruClimber: interestingly, he took up golf when he got back from tibet, and went on to become austrian amateur champion.
mental how he was just really good at almost everything he tried.

In reply to MttSnr: Seven Years in Tibet might be a better first choice, then the autobio.

In reply to Mark Sheridan:


And just to clarify, I dont blame my mates either, the options were there to be used, take the dole, join the party, whatever!

In reply to fxceltic: Not saying he was a Nazi, keeping out of that, but I was listening to a show on 5live today, about racism and the nazi's and this guy had gone around interviewing people for a book. Anyway he was talking about what made a nazi, and he said one thing was they were quite normal people, but almost all had been extremely successful since their Nazi days, and he said he never met a poor ex-Nazi. He thought it was down to interllect, to survive in those situations you had to be quite a talented/clever person, just not a nice talented person.

In reply to GuruClimber:

I met Harrer at the RGS a few years ago. He was very small and Hobbity and neither of us understood a word each other said.

I recall the jammy bugger was coach to the SS Women's Ski Team.

In reply to MttSnr: eeh t'wonders of t'interweb - had a look at those links and have had a quick look myself

re Wiesenthal etc..

the LA jewish community seemed to find otherwise

"To placate LA's militant rabbi faction, a would-be diplomatic photo-opportunity meeting was set up in Vienna between the Nazi-hunter Simon Wiesenthal and Herr Harrer. Wiesenthal was left unimpressed by Harrer's efforts to explain why he had kept his past hidden for 50 years (when the Austrian reporter Lehner dared to confront Harrer on the subject in his house, he was thrown out). In a subsequent statement, Harrer spoke of the events of his youth as being the `biggest aberration' in his life. For Rabbi Cooper, however, he remained `arrogant, gutless' and insincere."


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3724/is_199710/ai_n8777135

I don't claim to be an expert or have any special insight here, I've just followed the story since Der Stern broke it and recall from reading it at the time that they had photostat evidence from Nazi files that proved that Harrer had joined the SA in 1933 becoming an Oberscharfuhrer and had later joined the SS. I haven't read Lehner's (the main journalist on the Stern story) book but believe that in this he went over the top beyond the evidence in what had become a personal vendetta and pursued all sorts of post-war Nazi links Harrer may or may not have had.

Nevertheless the facts would appear to be

1933 - Harrer joins SA of own volition and is therefore an exceptionally keen Nazi by Austrian standards of the time

1938 climbs Eiger - great acclaim - SS membership - pictures with Hitler etc

post war - writes hundreds of thousands of words about own life never owning up to Nazi past

1997 confronted with Nazi past - denies everything - then admits SS bit and gives plausible and forgiveable explanation about just wanting to climb, spirit of times etc, all round hugs and forgiveness....(this is the story that has set in most people's minds and smacks of nothing worse than minor, even loveable, human frailty)

then emerges truth re earlier Nazism exposing whole recently concocted story as complete tissue of lies spoken with onion to eye - Harrer denies everything and continues to do so until he dies despite compelling evidence

As far as I know or can find the Dalai Lama denies none of this but understands /forgives him which is a different matter - is there any evidence to the contrary? I have seen an interview in german where DL accepts truth of allegations

I'm happy to hear another side and greatly admire his climbing achievements but unless presented with a clearly proven rebuttal it would appear to me that Harrer is one of the many historical figures who has succeeded in surviving as a myth of their own making. I'm not on a crusade or owt but AFAICT from the evidence presented the guy was an out and out Nazi

cheers P

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

My guess (and it is a guess) is this. Harrer was a determined careerist, who would use any branch he could to pull himself up. But that's very different to saying he was a committed Nazi... and very different to saying he did vile deeds.

The day Harrer met Heckmair (sp?) on the Eiger was the luckiest day of his life. That implies no disrespect to Harrer. His journey to Tibet was astounding.

Re context. How many of us would have opposed the Nazis in 1930s Germany? The honest answer - probably not many.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward: Mick, this is exactly the point - he wasn't in Germany, he was in neighbouring Austria (a centuries old kingdom unlike the recent German nation state and utterly unlike the racially defined greater Germany germinating in Hitler's mind which would overthrow Harrer's native land)) and in the early 30s Nazi membership there was about equivalent to IRA membership in the 1980s. It wouldn't have helped him climb but night have found him in jail - he was by the standards of the time and place a fanatic. As I have said above, if one believes the carried away with German nationalism if you can't beat 'em join 'em like everyone else at the time 1938 story one can hardly condemn Harrer; the problem is that this story is a complete pack of lies which has stuck in the popular memory

cheers P

In reply to Paul Atkinson: I really think your points are irrelevant to what he acheived, and actually he was so far away from the atrocities of the SS, does it really matter? We (hopefully) all have mates whose families were far more involved than Harrer was, but mostly they are forgiven.

In reply to Al Evans: I agree his politics are irrelevant from a stictly climbing point of view but feel very strongly that historical accuracy is vitally important, particularly in circumstances where it is being deliberately manipulated. The fragility of history was one of the major lessons from the 20th C totalitarian regimes (and hence a major thread in 1984) and it is important for posterity that the true facts are established obsessively and pedantically and recorded as soon as possible after the action.

I'm not a historian and I seem to be in a minority of one on this thread, the other posters being intelligent informed climbers, but am fairly sure of the solidity of my facts. So the re-writing of history would appear to have worked very well already in this case and passed in to the climbing culture to be perpetuated through all the generations who will surely continue to read Harrer's excellent books. I think that should be resisted

Will sign off now, P

In reply to Fawksey:

"Mein Kampf", published in 1925, was in effect Hitler's manifesto. It includes passages such as:

"If the Jews were alone in this world, they would stifle in filth and offal; they would try to get ahead of one another in hate-filled struggle and exterminate one another."

The feelings of the Nazi Party towards the Jews were abundantly clear by 1933.

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

In reply to Paul Atkinson: You're not in a minority of one Paul, although given that I wrote the article that sparked this interesting debate, I'm hardly going to disagree with you! I find people's attachment to their heroes genuinely fascinating. Nowhere in my review did I suggest that Harrer's journey across the Chang Tang was unremarkable. He had an extraordinary life, and was undoubtedly a lot tougher than the rest of us.

But he was a supreme egotist who couldn't bear criticism. He wasn't in Europe when the crimes of the Third Reich were committed. But my issue with his book isn't really about his personal conduct, although there IS documentary evidence he joined the NSDAP in 1933.

My main criticism against Harrer is this. The Austian Alpine Club was constitutionally anti-Semitic. It was banning Jews in 1923, two years before the publication of Mein Kampf. It acted as a reservoir for Nazi recruitment and assisted the survival of the party in Austria when it was banned in the mid 1930s. Harrer could have addressed this issue and in the process expiated his sins. But he didn't.

Also, don't forget that Himmler took a personal interest in Harrer's first wedding -- and that his brother-in-law was the Nazi Gauleiter of Styria. And don't forget that Himmler regarded Tibetans as a lost Aryan tribe. Other German Tibetologists, like Bruno Beger, went to jail for war crimes committed in Auschwitz. These are murky waters left opaque by Harrer's autobiography.

My other complaint is that Harrer clung to the Dalai Lama while strenuously avoiding the subject of his limited Nazi history. That's not the behaviour of a class act, not in my book.

Tricky people, heroes.

In reply to Dogwatch:


The writings of Martin Luther are in many ways a Protestant "manifesto". In his book "On the Jews and Their Lies" Luther wrote (from wikipedia):

"the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth." They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine," and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..." He argues that their synagogues and schools should be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness, afforded no legal protection, and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time. He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them."

[By the way, the Lutheran churches had not disowned any of this by WWII, and the Nazis made great play of it.]


Since Luther's sentiment towards Jews was clear since 1543, maybe we should similarly condemn all those who joined the Protestant churches?

</stirring>

In reply to Ed Douglas:
I offer the following quotes from the autobiography in the hope that they might stimulate discussion about some of the more positive aspects of the man's character:

On egotism:
"In an autobiography one can not avoid writing about commendable events, even if this may leave an aftertaste of smugness."

On mistakes:
"The good events are easy to describe. The unpleasant ones, caused largely by my own mistakes, I at first repressed, but after thinking long and hard, and with the benefit of hindsight, I decided to record those, too, since they have valuable lessons to teach (...) Nor do I feel able to ascribe certain events to bad luck. Whenever I have experienced “bad luck” or misfortune it has always been me that made the mistake that caused it."

On journalists:
"A few years ago I attempted to defend myself and protest against the untruths that the newspapers had written about me. I am now in my ninetieth year, and whilst I can not say that I have become immune to such criticism, it no longer distresses me."

On the Dalai Lama:
"The most significant encounter of my life, and the one that was to have the greatest influence on me, was without doubt my meeting with the 14th Dalai Lama."

On redemption:
"I have learned to enjoy each day as a gift and I await the inevitable with a feeling of calm and trust."

One more, on judgement:
“It is a terrible thing when we must answer to a generation that has not lived through the same events that we have.”

In reply to Ed Douglas:

Oh for gods sake Ed, the Climbers Club was still banning women of all denominations in the early 70's. Myself, Dave Pearce, Paul Nunn and Ken Wilson were all in 'the party' in fact all on the comittee, and were all at the forefront of getting women let in. Hundreds of members were against the club policy, they were in to further their own climbing. You are talking a load of B******S.

In reply to Al Evans: Hi Al. You're conflating moving the Climbers' Club into the 20th Century with the rise of the Third Reich. Congratulations on your stand, but the mild misogyny of the CC, which is, and always has been a tiny organisation, and the political position of the AAC are different issues. The AAC is a mass-membership organisation in Austria. The comparison isn't appropriate.

Ed

In reply to Al Evans:

The SMC didn't admit women until 1990, and it was by no means a unanimous vote.

I don't think Ed is entirely talking bollocks though. The Austrian Alpine Club may well have been constitutionally anti-semitic, but open anti-semitism was fairly common and not taboo in much of Europe, not just Germany and Austria at the time. It doesn't make it right, but I wonder how we all would have been had been born the early 20th century in that part of the world? They weren't monsters, they were ordinary people like the rest of us who ended up supporting something that became montrous.

In reply to Ed Douglas:


Is ther realy Ed?

The only evidence I have come across is on this is on Harrer's marriage application. Is there anything else?

Do we have evidence to discount Harrer's claim that he put down that he was an old party member to speed up the approval process?

I could well imagine the tortuous process invovlved for an SS member to get approval for marriage.



What evidence do we have that Harrer was politically involved at this time? He could have just been involved in climbing and could have only been interested in sport. Just because a sporting organisation may have had politcal leanings does not mean that all members of that organisation
supported them and have to justify their involvement decades later.



Bruno Berger and the 1938 SS expedition to Tibet had nothing to do with Harrer. Harrer was a mountaineer on an expedition organised by the German Alpine Club. The 1938 expedition was sporsered by Heinrich Himmler and the SS. It is speculation that is most probably not true that links the two together.


The Dalai Lama held to Harrer, through the Nazi outing of the film in 1997 and beyond. He visited Harrer in Austria for his 90th birthday and wrote an introduction to the English language version of his autobiography which was the subject of your review, proving that he was a freind indeed.

In reply to GuruClimber: Whats the general concensus on this book then? I've just ordered it for a friend as a gift.

In reply to Al Evans:


But as far as I know, they weren't rounding them up and gassing them. I don't think your analogy with the Nazi party really has legs.

In reply to Coel Hellier:


Luther's not my hero either. All that emphasis on faith instead of deeds.....don't agree with it at all

If your point is that anti-semitism was widespread at the time and place of Harrer's youth and that was a mitigating factor, I'd agree to some extent. It's the fact that he neither admitted nor disavowed his Nazi links that I struggle with.

In reply to GuruClimber: Gerald Lehner turned up a document that supported Harrer's 1933 membership. I've spoken to contemporaries of Harrer's who attest to his political outlook. And I've seen the newspaper reports from his wedding. It really was a Nazi society wedding. But that's not my point, as the original review made clear. My view is that he was rightwing in an instinctive nebulous kind of way, saw the Nazis as a way of achieving his considerable ambitions etc. He was not a hardcore ideologue. He WAS mostly only interested in sport, and, frankly, Heinrich Harrer. My interest is in the Austrian Alpine Club, and that strand within mountaineering that idolises the strong individual.

You're quite right, Beger wasn't much to do with Harrer, although I have nice photo of the two of them standing either side of the Dalai Lama. I wasn't making a link. I raised the issue of Beger simply because people don't appreciate the position Tibet held in the Nazi imagination. Harrer very deliberately disassociated himself from Beger and the whackier fringes, although he didn't bother to tell His Holiness that Beger was a convicted war criminal.

Nor do I suggest that Harrer overstated his relationship with the DL. My point in the review was that the DL's political handlers wished they weren't so close.

In reply to Ed Douglas:
You might be right about the existence of a document supporting his 1933 membership but from my reading on the subject I understand that Lehner found Harrer's name in the German military records held in the National Archives in Washington. "Inside a thick 80-page file was a CV in Harrer's black-ink handwriting, stating that he had joined the SS, in 1938."

With regard to his relationship with the Dalai Lama, you refer in your article to "Harrer's exaggeration of his friendship with the Dalai Lama". This would seem to contradict your assertion that you do not suggest that he overstated this relationship.

In reply to Ed Douglas:
I'll leave you with this little snippet:
"Harrer's real crime is not anything he did as a gym coach, but that he committed the atrocity of not using his celebrity limelight to castigate himself in the 'I-f*cked-up, Hugh Grant talk-show confession style'. But then, can you honestly blame him?"

In reply to drunken monkey:

Beyond Seven Years in Tibet is a damn good read. The chapters on his early life, early climbing, the Eiger climb, Nanga Parbat expedition, internement in India, the Tibet chapters, working for the CIA while in India, return to Europe and other expeditions are real page turners.

Its amazing on how much other exploring, that is not generally known, he actualy did. This ranged from first ascents in Peru, Alaska and New Guinea to exploration in South America, Africa and Asia.

Definetly worth reading. Stands well compared to the classics Seven Years in Tibet and the White Spider.

In reply to GuruClimber:

What's this about him working for the CIA? I hadn't heard about that before? Where and when did he work for the CIA?

In reply to Dogwatch:

And I doubt that Harrer was aware of that,

In reply to Ed Douglas: Agreed Ed, but it really is a matter of degree, I agree with you on that, it was perhaps a poort anology, but the point I was trying to make was that there were a lot of people who were in the CC just to enhance their climbing without giving much thought to the politics of the club.In that sense I can clearly see why Harrer, as a climber, would just go along with the consensus, in the same way as the guys did by accepting the dole. It is so far away from the gassing of jews, or the crushing of miners, that it becomes irrelevant.

In reply to Paul Atkinson: You summed it all up ..........WAS a Nazi ! I voted Tory once does that make me a life long conservative NO ! I was young, stupid and a wee bit niave (and probably greedy !).
I beleive that we should judge a man by what he achieves over his whole life and not by one single episode. The problem is people are so quick to judge !

In reply to Allan McDonald: I can't believe you are admitting to voting Tory, nobody ever seems to admit they were members of the Nazi party.

In reply to fxceltic:

I don't want to get bogged down in debating Harrer's Nazi credentials, but I thought I had better correct this assumption.

This is lifted from Wikipedia, but is supported by plenty of reliable sources.

According to the adherents to Ariosophy, the Aryan was a "master race" that built a civilization that dominated the world from Atlantis about ten thousand years ago. This alleged civilization declined when other parts of the world were colonized after the 8,000 BC destruction of Atlantis because the inferior races mixed with the "Aryans" but it left traces of their civilization in Tibet.

The Nazis funded a number of expeditions to Tibet in the mid to late 30's to prove the Aryan mythology, they carried out lots of experiments to compare Tibetans to northern Europeans.

Now I am making assumptions, but it is quite possible that Harrer was comfortable with the Aryan credentials of Tibetans.

In reply to Paul Atkinson: It is also worth remembering that Harrer was not averse to lying in his reporting of climbing either. Harrers treatment of Corti in the White Spider, is famously unfair and when Cortis version of events was proven quite conclusively, Harrer refused to ammend his version (Harrer was not there).

Harrer basically accused Corti of murdering Nothdurft and Meyer.

In reply to Allan McDonald: well Mr McDonald...or should I say Mr VON McDonald? If you voted for Major you might have just been ill or something but if it was for Thatcher you are probably Martin Bormann and should hand yourself in


btw - it is the whole lifetime that counts, I agree entirely: in Harrer's case we are looking at a whole lifetime of lying through his teeth about his Nazism even after being confronted with the truth; being a great climber does not make him a good person and the Eiger Nordwand was a single episode. Lots of people involved in the NSDAP / Third Reich redeemed themselves subsequently but Harrer steadfastly refused to do so and I don't think it is being quick or ready of judgement to single him out as one of the unreconstructed and dubious. Take the recent travails of Gunther Grass for example - he has come clean (albeit of lesser things) and explained his actions in human terms and few are judging him harshly. I'm certainly not. Looks like we're agreeing to disagree. Defo signing off this thread now, promise

cheers P

In reply to Paul Atkinson:



Come on, you are being totally unfair to Harrer here. When confronted with the fact of his Nazi membership in 1997 Harrer acknowledged it. He just didn't publicise it before then. Is that a crime? Would anyone?

Gunther Grass did the same thing. He kept his Nazi membership quiet until just a year or two ago.

Have you actually read the book and seen what Harrer has to say for himself about it?

In reply to Al Evans: Well, I'm not disagreeing with you about that. I'm just interested in the gap between how we present ourselves and who we really are. I'm suggesting that in Harrer's case, that gap was quite wide, and when a book like the White Spider has proved so popular, it's important to explore that.

The new autobiograhpy is very good in parts, but there is a lot that is skated over. People can accuse me of being quick to judge, but who is really guilty of that? The people who say Harrer is a great man, even a hero, without ever looking behind the story he tells us?

By the way, Harrer's best two books were written with co-authors, which gets forgotten. The co-author on the White Spider was Kurt Maix, who I'm pretty sure was a regular contributor to the Völkischer Beobachter.

I promise not to write more on this!

In reply to Ed Douglas:
'Forgotten'? Written out of history more like! Anyone see his name here?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/White-Spider-Heinrich-Harrer/dp/0007197845

In reply to Ed Douglas:

Please do Ed if you have more to add, I just have this thing that it is so easy to criticise Harrer, and we now even get the conspiracy theory that the nazis were into Tibet espoused above. I guess we will never know the truth, but my bottom line is that the major part of Harrers contribution to both mountaineering and teaching the Dalai Llama are HUGE compared to his minor involvement with the Nazi party.

In reply to Steve Parker: BTW, my copy of TWS credits both Kurt Maix and the translator Hugh Merrick.

In reply to Ed Douglas:
There is another aspect to this story - the fact that the chinese government has been able to use Harrer's nazi past as a means of undermining the Dalai Lama. They were very concerned that the film of "Seven Years in Tibet" would create a upsurge in sympathy for Tibet and did all they could counteract this.

In the late 50s the FBI used a similar tactic to get at Martin Luther King by denouncing any whites in the civil rights campaign as former communists.

People can be quite niave when it come to politics and do things they later regret. The political landscape for someone growing up in the 1920s were very differant to now, far less information, far more extemeism. Much is made of the way Hitler used resentment towards the Treaty of Versailles, but bear in mind that Austria went from a large country with an Empire to a small landlocked alpine state. Harrer's sympathy may have had more to do with nationalism than anti-semitism (as well as the obvious expediency and opportunism).

However it is very likely that had he not been in the Nazi Party he wouldn't have been in India, wouldn't have gone to Tibet and would never have written his book....

In reply to Chris the Tall: I'm painfully aware of how the Chinese used Harrer's SS membership -- I remember the story in the People's Daily at the time. It's one of the reasons I explained in my original piece why some of the Dalai Lama's people used to groan when Harrer appeared. If Harrer hadn't buried the issue, the Chinese wouldn't have had that lever against the DL.

Anyway, as I keep saying, I don't think Harrer's membership of the SS is either here or there in the broad historical context. He was in prison -- one of ours -- when the evil happened.

Some people took a stand against anti-Semitism at the time, and plenty of courageous Austrians were deeply alarmed at the direction their country was taking in the face of a totalitarian regime. Harrer had an amazing life and was a tough, resourceful guy, but he played fast and loose with the truth. I think he's self-serving attitude didn't do him any credit.

In reply to Al Evans:

Please don't dismiss my input on the link between Aryans and Tibet as a conspiracy theory. It is bollocks, but it is bollocks created by Aryan supremesists in around 1910 and taken up by the Nazis. The expeditions did happen, I have seen some of the original film footage.

They had some pretty odd ideas them Nazis.

In reply to Nick B not logged on:

Not only that, but Harrer's account of the rescue of Brian Nally by Bonnington and Whillans had at best a tangential relationship to the truth, being particularly unfair on Nally.

Both The White Spider and Seven Years in Tibet are striking books to read, but they have to be read with a very sceptical mind.

In reply to Nick B not logged on:
I actually don't understand what you are getting at, I certainly dont want to dismiss your input, in fact any input is good as I find the subject fascinating,
I just really do not think Harrers membership of the Nazi party was for political reasons rather than to further his climbing and I think he has been given bad press by Ed and others because it is a cheap shot to take him with, and I would like to see more objectivity in the look back at his history. He is a major contributor to Alpine and in a way Himalayan history and I would like to see that reflected more than the petty (if it is) membership of the Nazi party.

In reply to Simon4:

Why?

In reply to Steve Parker:

Maix also co (ghost)-wrote "Nanga Parbat Pilgrimage", re-writing considerable portions of Buhl's text using far more flowery and poetic language than Buhl himself would ever have chosen. The result, though hailed as a classic, is not really an accurate representattion of the 'real' Buhl. Interestingly, it was also Maix who persuaded Buhl to take a young lad called Kurt Diemberger climbing.

In reply to Nick B not logged on:

Not only - he organized(and personally paid for!) several searches at the base of the Nordwand to look for any item that could be recognized as belonging to Northdruft and Meye, in order to "prove" is theory that Corti had murdered them to steal their equipment and food. He was greatly helped on that by another guy who had troubles with the concept of truth (Guido Tonella), but Harrer was bizzarrely single minded in his attempt to "nail" poor Claudio (who had his life ruined, in case you don't know).

When the truth was discovered, he simply ignored it - he wrote the infamous post-scriptum to the new edition of "White Spider", saying that "it wasn't his fault if Corti's version was so confused" (too bad we know now that little Heinrich back then knew VERY WELL why Corti's version was "confused" - the original report Corti had dictated right after the rescue was crucially mis-translated). The entire repellent story is splendidly detailed in Daniel Anker and Rainer Rettner's "Corti Drama - Death and Rescue on Eiger", a book I always hope will get an English translation.

And for all those who take the rest of "White Spider" for its face value, it should be reminded that even Anderl Heckmair - who was rightly happy for all the publicity the book had generated - wasn't terribly impressed by Harrer's role as self styled Eiger historian, as Anderl was rather keen to remind the people who asked him that if he and Vorg hadn't been there to save them, both Harrer and Kasparek would have certainly died (there's a nice example of this on the exchange that Heckmair had with author Lino Leggio reported in "Eigerwand '57 - Death Never Sleeps")

And about Kurt Maix as "White Spider"'s ghost writer - recently I've been chatting a lot on this subject with Irene Affentranger (who knew Buhl quite well, and has done the translations of the last edition of Buhl's book). Rather interesting stuff...

In reply to Luca Signorelli: Your 'local knowledge' is well recieved and adds interest to the story, but I will repeat that in my copy of WS Kurt Maix is credited. I also think it is quite clear that Anderl Heckmair and Vorg were the masterminds behind the FA. Not sure about the Corti thing, I don't know enough, but my thoughts are still that Harrer is being 'nailed' by others for just being, well, a better writer than the rest!

In reply to Al Evans:
"but my thoughts are still that Harrer is being 'nailed' by others for just being, well, a better writer than the rest! "

I agree! Oh and maybe a better climber?
P

Gosh Paul Atkinson really does have a fetish for Nazis.

I wonder if he gets just as excited over Commies, religious maniacs and werewolves?

Honestly, he seems to have a one track mind!

In reply to Al Evans:

My two points are completely separate, but both related to this thread.

a) A poster above suggested that a Nazi would have problems with the Tibetans because they are not Aryans, my poor explination of one branch of Nazi mythology, suggests that this may not be the case. Any suggestion that this had an effect on Harrers view of the Tibetans is pure speculation, and I have not presented it as anything more than that.

b) The second point is that Harrer has form for not being totally honest about things, the Corti case is a good example, as is the Nally, Bonington & Whillans case that Simon mentioned. Luca knows much more about Corti and Harrers acusations than I, do a search, he has written about it at length in the past.

In reply to Nick B not logged on: I'll try and find it!

In reply to Al Evans: It is on this thread Al, interesting contribution from Luca, as ever.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=254547&v=1#3753296

In reply to Nick B not logged on:


For those with the time (and stomach) to hunt through the more obscure bits of Nazi ideology, the theory that the Nazis believed that Tibetans (and Northern Indians) were "aryans" does have substance. Heinrich Himmler the head of the SS in particular fancied himself as something of a Nazi intellectual and did sponsor some pre-war expeditions to Tibet to "prove" some obscure piece of Nazi race-theory.

As a matter of interest, there is a moderately clear racial divide between Northern and Southern India, with the much darker skinned peoples like the Tamils being in the South. This tends to support the view that one of the invasions of India was by a lighter skinned people from the North. There are significant remnants of this invasion and the resultant differences in status in the Indian caste system. Some distorted record of this historically real invasion may have been part of the origin of this bit of Nazi race-theory.

In reply to Simon4:

Harrer had nothing to do with this. It was Himmler who sent the expedition. Bruno Beger who was on the 1938 SS expedition to Tibet (and is still alive)has stated that he only met Harrer after the war. It is pure unfounded speculation that tries to tie Harrer to the crazy 1938 SS expedition to Tibet. Please show some proof before wildly accusing Harrer of this!

Harrer got his interest in Tibet through reading the exploration books of the Swedish explorer Sven Hedin. He states this in the autobiography.

In reply to GuruClimber:

Hedin was also politically active. In one of his books he warned of Russian expansion and spoke for strong military defence and a political orientation towards Germany. He kept warm relations with Germany all his life, and was a supporter of the Nazis. Hedin also met Hitler and Göring a few times and in 1940 he had long discussions with Hitler about politics. Behind Hedin's visits to Berlin was his fear that the Soviet Union would again start a war against Finland. It could lead to the situation, where the Red Army would stand on the border of Sweden. To his disappointment, Hitler had his own plans.

In 1945 Hedin wrote to one of his German friends: "Im dritten Reich ist alles schief gegangen. Hitler ist allmählich verrückt geworden." (Everything has gone wrong in the Third Reich. Hitler has gradually become mad.) After the war Hedin denied that he knew the truth about concentration camps. Hedin continued to follow world politics and in 1949 prophesied: "Mao is the best thing that has happened to China in a thousand years."

Bloody heroes, eh? The problem with putting people on a pedestal is they have farther to fall.

In reply to GuruClimber:


Er, wasn't that just what I said?


I was just reinforcing Nick's point that the idea of Tibetans/North Indians as aryans was part of Nazi race-theories.


Hedin, as someone-else points out, was a Nazi, or certainly a Nazi fellow-traveller, only having his "Damascus-road" moment in 1945.

In reply to Simon4:

Yeah but you were trying to tar Harrer with its brush. He didn't have anything to do with this expedition and it's crazy theories


Harrer also got on with the Papuans from New Guinea. Did they fit this mould as well?

In reply to Paul Atkinson: When I saw this photo I thought it might interest you. They're still out there...

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=300657

I've never met anyone with a nazi fetish before. What is it about them that gets you excited? I bet it's the uniforms!

In reply to GuruClimber:


I agree. I think people get a bit hysterical whenever anything to do with Nazis are encountered. Wild accusations start flying.

I think that the evidence needs to be carefully analysed before accusing Harrer.

Whateven he did in his youth, I think he redeemed himself in the 60 years following his arrival in Lhasa.

In reply to GuruClimber:

Read the book. It's a fascinating story, and a very good climber's translation.

In reply to Paul Atkinson:


I don't get this, Paul. You seem to be looking at the same evidence and coming to a 'certainty', whereas I can see all sorts of other possibilities in his favour (potentially). It really sounds like you have just got an axe to grind irrespective of the evidence. Are you really saying you just can't see any innocent reasons why he would have been reluctant to reveal his history?

In reply to duncan:


If you are referring to the new Harrer book, then bless you, sir! That goes some way towards compensating me for many months of all work and no play last year!

In reply to tim carruthers:

I did mean you. I considered hinting that one of the thread contributors had had a hand in it but I wasn't sure you wanted to be "outed"!

New review now up - http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=524

Alan
UKC

In reply to duncan:

Yes it is a fantastic read. A real page turner.

I would recommend the book to anyone.

A great biography of an amazing life!

In reply to GuruClimber:

Its a ripper of a read! Really enjoyed it.

What an absolutely amazing life he had.

Would certainly suggest that everyone reads it so they can see his side of the story.

In reply to JonMiller:

What's this about him working for the CIA? I hadn't heard about that before? Where and when did he work for the CIA?

Apprantley, when Harrer left Tibet in '51 after the Chinese invasion he was involved with the CIA in a number of plots to evacuate the Dalai Lama out of Tibet. He was working with a CIA operative out of Calcatta, and met with the US ambassador to India at the time.

There are also rumours that while in Tibet he was "working for some one" Quite who is hard to work out. If true, it is most likely the Americans.

How was he recruited? While Harrer was in Tibet there were only two visits by Americans. One by Lowell Thomas and his son in 1949. One in 1950. Could have Lowell Thomas recruited him to the CIA??

Quite imnteresting

In reply to GuruClimber:

Thanks for that. This CIA thing is also very interesting!

There are so many mysteries about Harrer, I wonder whether we will ever find out the truth about him!

In reply to JonMiller:

We already have.

In reply to Mystery Toad: No. You only think you have.

In reply to Al Evans: thats what they want you to think

Has anyone else read the book?

What are your opinions on it?

I would be very interested to hear poples opions on what they think of the autobiography.

In reply to GuruClimber:

Obviously a Nazi. Only the usual confederacy of autodidactic dunces argue otherwise.

In reply to Mike Highbury:

Nazi. Past tense. Big deal. What's your point.
The way I see it, any friend of His Holiness' is a friend of mine. I read his first 3 books. I admire the man and rightly so.
So what is your point? Do we alert the JDL?
Call out the Nazi Hunters?

Yes, you're correct.
I didn't review the thread in it's entirety so your post may arguably have been taken out of context by me.
I dispute that. Read what you've written again.
Then read Harrer.

In reply to Mystery Toad: I think, that rarely, I am in agreement with you for once

In reply to Al Evans:

(poke).

In a slight change of subject, what do people think about Harrer's Eiger climb in '38. The impression I get of many people is that he wouldn't have suceeded without Heckmair and Vorg but i'm not sure. He was climbing with Kasparek who was an outsanding climber and was equipped with crampons. Would that have made a difference?

In reply to Mystery Toad:


www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2192696,00.html

Fair enough

In reply to otziiceman:

I think it is extremely hard to say what would have happened. Heckmair did lead climb the crux of the climb so there was an advantage in that, but the fact remains that for most of the climb Kasparek and Harrer climbed the route as a seperate rope. You have to give them credit for geting up it. Both of them were by no means mediocre climbers. They were both very good, so they possibly could have made it on there own.

In his book Harrer states that Heckmair's leading out of the exit cracks improved the speed of the party and their style, for want of better word. But would Kasparek have been able to lead the difficult pitches in the ramp and the exit cracks? - Harrer couldnt have in nailed boots. I think that without Heckmair it could have taken Harrer and Kasparek maybe two days longer because of the relative less experience and skill they had against Heckmair.

In reply:
Here's an extract from Heckmair's book in which he explains the political aftermath of the ascent of the 38 Route:

AFTER OUR RETURN from the Eigerwand we were no longer masters of our own destiny. We were quite simply taken over, monopolized. In full uniform - not very tactful with regard to neutral Switzerland – staff officials from the Sonthofen Ordensburg appeared and swept us off “home to the Reich as national heroes”. With the benefit of hindsight it is easy to see what we should have done, but at the time we were more or less numbed by the reaction to our success and submitted to the will of others.

At Sonthofen a big reception was given for us, and in the Ordensburg we were immediately enrolled on the staff as “Bergsportführer” at a salary of 300 marks. It was the first time in my life that I had received a salary, and it represented a step up in the social scale that I found very pleasant. Less pleasing was a vigorous address by Dr Robery Ley, head of the Reichsorganization, in which he spoke of us as Party members and expressed his pride in our performance. We were not Party members. My sole relation to the Party was that I had stood next to Hitler for a couple of hours and had spoken with him. We were drilled, clothed, and forced into line. The fact that for ten years I had had no fixed address, had not reported anywhere and had spent most of my time wandering around abroad was not questioned, although for someone else such behaviour might have entailed trouble, and perhaps worse.

At this point I should probably say a few words about the political consequences of the first ascent of the Eigerwand, since I am still questioned about them up to the present day, and in many books the four of us are branded as Nazis who climbed the Eiger as a kind of “National-Socialist Greater German Record”. The suggested was made that climbers from fascist countries were primarily interested in the Eigerwand for reasons of nationalistic ambition. Phrased thus, the suggestion is pure nonsense. I and many other such climbers of that period had little or no interest in politics. It was the furore in the papers after the ascent, celebrating us as “heroes”, that gave the impression that the ascent had been inspired by the Nazis. The Italians were guilty of similar nonsense after Riccardo Cassin’s conquest of the Walker Spur, yet I am sure that, like ourselves, Cassin and his companions were only interested in success in mountaineering terms.

Regarding our reception and decoration by Hitler, the fact is that just like anybody else we felt honoured at being suddenly plucked out of our anonymous lives and presented to the most powerful man in Germany, and at being decorated by him. The same thing could have happened to a dancing bear. As an apolitical young man, I had no way of estimating where the Nazi road was going to lead. It was only after the outbreak of war that the true political situation became clear. Nevertheless, I can not blame people in other countries for thinking as they did. The Nazis built us up into such stars that people believed that we had been supported by, and received monies from, the Party. However, that is simply not true.

In reply to tim carruthers:

Is Heckmair telling the truth here? I beleive that Heckmair got the latest crampons and other climbing from the Sonthofen Nazi College.

This would seem to me, if true, to indicate that Heckmair had been sponsored by the Nazi's. It would be interesting to find out exactly when Heckmair started employment at Sonthofen.


Heckamair and NOT Harrer was sposored by the Nazis.

In reply to JonMiller:


In the days before Internet shopping we had to get our rigid Salewa crampons directly from the factory in Germany, as they could not be got in the UK. One takes specialist equipment were one can get it, I would imagine modern day sponsored climbers may not like all their backers.

In reply to MttSnr:

His attitude to women is that "they should be looked after by their male companions" and that really "they have no place in the mountains". That was his comments in the original German version of the White Spider. In the Enlgish translation these comments do not appear.

In reply to JonMiller:
He got the gear from Sporthaus Schuster in Munich

In reply to tim carruthers:

Who paid for it though? Heckmair was very poor and did not have the money for the latest equipment and a trip to Switzerland.

The Nazi training school at Sonthofen paid for Heckmair and Vorgs equipment.

In reply to Paul Atkinson: You are not alone Paul,and you don't seem to need any assistance, a rational eloqent statement of facts,you are right history gives us the facts but some people seem to want to reform those facts to allow people off the hook especially those people that have led notable lives in other spheres and to portray them in as best light possible.Also al evans is not compering like with like,the "rock cats" of the 80's didn't join the fecking Tory party so they could go rocking they took advantage of the fact that there wasn't a lot of jobs going and it was no big deal being on the dole back then(I did a few stints myself and very nice it was too!.)

In reply to GuruClimber:
one mMUST heartily condemn the ascensionists

they MUST have known the massive boost their assent would give when they let lose the news of their success

they should have not done the climb or should have gone off and hidden, never to see their families again

In reply to Paul Atkinson: Interesting thread Paul and you seem to be very keen not to let Harrer off the hook...

Both Harrer's and Heckmair's books read a little like they try to deflect criticism and Harrer's post-war account seems to vastly overcompensate by going on about 'international ropes' ie roped up parties from several nations, on the Norwand. His views about different racial characteristics expressed post war (about Italians) when writing The White Spider are interesting. Not particularly unusual for the time I think but if I were him I'd have kept a lower profile - persistent prejudice despite events or just reflecting his time? I suspect the former but it doesn't make him a monster, just unreformed. His treatment of an Italian climber and his 'inconsistent accounts' relating to a climb resulting in several fatalities on the Nordwand seem to bear this out, though he did correct the impression left somewhat when new evidence came to light.

Heckmair in his autobiography roundly criticises Harrer without naming him, yet he as much as Harrer benefited from the Nazis' embracement of their achievements. He tries to claim he was rather above it all and went along for the ride...convincing? Not sure.

I think they were both embarassed by their past and more culpability sticks to Harrer but even apparently true, bare facts about early Nazi involvement don't really give us a clue to what the man really thought in his later life. Does anyone know if either of them ever denied the Holocaust?

In reply to Nigel Modern:


I sugest you read his autobiography Beyond Seven Years in Tibet (which has just come out in English) which gives a clue to what he thought in later life.

In this book regarding the holocaust he says "Two sepia print issues of the Illustrated London News contained gruesome photographs of the concentration camps discovered by the allies after the end of the war. Far away from our homes we were now confronted by the full extent of the Nazi crimes against humanity. We were speechless. How could such a thing happen in the 20th century, in spite of the International Red Cross and the Geneva Convention? The shock was great and I was depressed to think that I had applied for membership of Nazi Party before I left Europe. Aufschnaiter and I were adamant – and said as much to the Ministers – that no one amongst our circle of friends could have had anything to do with such terrible events."

In reply to GuruClimber: Ta, That does seem in keeping with the man as he wrote post war. The White Spider doesn't read like 'hiding, unreformed Nazi'. No doubt some will remain suspicious, NM