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Simon Cardy reports:
In September Neil Dickson reclimbed Hey Gringo on Black Crag (Lundy Island ) without the bolts, renaming it Quetzacoatl E9 6b.
Unlike most routes at this level Neil was at pains not to rehearse any of the moves on a top-rope.
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
In September Neil Dickson reclimbed Hey Gringo on Black Crag (Lundy Island ) without the bolts, renaming it Quetzacoatl E9 6b.
Unlike most routes at this level Neil was at pains not to rehearse any of the moves on a top-rope.
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Why chop bolts from 1988? Why not just climb the route without them, or tape them over like Martin Crocker...
Why chop bolts from 1988? Why not just climb the route without them, or tape them over like Martin Crocker...
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer: ave a look at the javu web page. There's a photo of the bolts - they look in pretty good nick. Lundy is bolt free, they should have come out a long time ago.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
As to the bolt chopping, another stand as per the Big Issue?
But E9 6b ?!
As to the bolt chopping, another stand as per the Big Issue?
But E9 6b ?!
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Looks like a good effort especially with no practice on the moves. The article mentions that he wasn't sure of the grade and that was suggested by Dave Pickford.
Looks like a good effort especially with no practice on the moves. The article mentions that he wasn't sure of the grade and that was suggested by Dave Pickford.
In reply to Mick:
Cheers I was just looking for this earlier today.
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
why not not place them in the first place and leave the route for someone else, unlike Gary, and occasionally Martin.
Cheers I was just looking for this earlier today.
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
why not not place them in the first place and leave the route for someone else, unlike Gary, and occasionally Martin.
In reply to Paz:
To be fair to Gary, he saw the light and spent considerable time repeating routes free and removing his own bolts.
Good that someone has tidied up this one.
Maybe I'm just untrusting, but the phrase "without practicing" seems carefully constructed. Was it on-sight? Inspected on top-rope?
I have another question about how ethics may change if some bright young thing some day manages to top themselves pursuing an ehically pure ascent...
Good effort!
J
To be fair to Gary, he saw the light and spent considerable time repeating routes free and removing his own bolts.
Good that someone has tidied up this one.
Maybe I'm just untrusting, but the phrase "without practicing" seems carefully constructed. Was it on-sight? Inspected on top-rope?
I have another question about how ethics may change if some bright young thing some day manages to top themselves pursuing an ehically pure ascent...
Good effort!
J
In reply to Moacs:
What grade was it prior with the bolts ?
Did it get many ascents?
<Which reminds me - I must go back and put a few more bolts in a few of my routes that don't get enough ascents because they are a bolted a bit too boldly ie groundfall potential>
What grade was it prior with the bolts ?
Did it get many ascents?
<Which reminds me - I must go back and put a few more bolts in a few of my routes that don't get enough ascents because they are a bolted a bit too boldly ie groundfall potential>
In reply to Moacs:
It was thoroughly cleaned, maybe inspected on ab. We've just discovered on UKB that `not onsighted' doesn't necessarily imply headpoint, but neither does `not a headpoint' necessarily imply an onsight (or a flash) either. We haven't really come up with a name for this middle style of ascent- basically Nick Dixon invented headpointing when repeating a Dawes route, which was not headpointed (though techncially was) in the sense that it was not `top roped the f*ck out of'.
Gary saw the light yeah - once Littlejohn had shown it to him, and if I was being cynical, when he realised he mgiht loose out on his ticks! Littlejohn has done loads of routes `with a minimum of abseil inspection' that aren't really onsight too, probably a case in point.
I've always thought these remaining Lundy E7s without their bolts are prime contenders for big E9 projects, even before the `E6' on fair head got done properly. Good that they haven't escaped others attention either.
It was thoroughly cleaned, maybe inspected on ab. We've just discovered on UKB that `not onsighted' doesn't necessarily imply headpoint, but neither does `not a headpoint' necessarily imply an onsight (or a flash) either. We haven't really come up with a name for this middle style of ascent- basically Nick Dixon invented headpointing when repeating a Dawes route, which was not headpointed (though techncially was) in the sense that it was not `top roped the f*ck out of'.
Gary saw the light yeah - once Littlejohn had shown it to him, and if I was being cynical, when he realised he mgiht loose out on his ticks! Littlejohn has done loads of routes `with a minimum of abseil inspection' that aren't really onsight too, probably a case in point.
I've always thought these remaining Lundy E7s without their bolts are prime contenders for big E9 projects, even before the `E6' on fair head got done properly. Good that they haven't escaped others attention either.
In reply to Moacs:
Who removed the bolts - if it was Dickson then he would have seen something of the line when he abseiled down to chop these meaning that he couldn't claim the onsight.
bluebrad
> (In reply to Paz)
> Maybe I'm just untrusting, but the phrase "without practicing" seems carefully constructed. Was it on-sight? Inspected on top-rope?
Who removed the bolts - if it was Dickson then he would have seen something of the line when he abseiled down to chop these meaning that he couldn't claim the onsight.
bluebrad
In reply to Paz:
Dixon coined the term, many climbers around the world had already being doing it for decades, if not for over a century.
> (In reply to John Lisle)
>
> We haven't really come up with a name for this middle style of ascent- basically Nick Dixon invented headpointing when repeating a Dawes route
>
> We haven't really come up with a name for this middle style of ascent- basically Nick Dixon invented headpointing when repeating a Dawes route
Dixon coined the term, many climbers around the world had already being doing it for decades, if not for over a century.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
seriously primo effort!
seriously primo effort!
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
Excellent! That's the 5th time this year that that has been suggested.
The Ent ™
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> Why chop bolts from 1988? Why not just climb the route without them, or tape them over like Martin Crocker...
>
> Why chop bolts from 1988? Why not just climb the route without them, or tape them over like Martin Crocker...
Excellent! That's the 5th time this year that that has been suggested.
The Ent ™
In reply to Enty:
Seems a perfectly good route that could be climbed by many has become the victim of elitism...and left to a few
Seems a perfectly good route that could be climbed by many has become the victim of elitism...and left to a few
In reply to nz Cragrat:
I suspect that balance will be maintained and that an equal or greater number of routes which could have given some lonely misfit a five-year headpoint project will be grid-bolted and enjoyed by the masses. But these won't be a in a trad heartland like Lundy.
I suspect that balance will be maintained and that an equal or greater number of routes which could have given some lonely misfit a five-year headpoint project will be grid-bolted and enjoyed by the masses. But these won't be a in a trad heartland like Lundy.
In reply to Paz:
One would assume that the FA decided that the route would just be silly with out bolts (as E9 6b is) and probably would not get done if left unbolted.
> In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
>
> why not not place them in the first place and leave the route for someone else, unlike Gary, and occasionally Martin.
>
> why not not place them in the first place and leave the route for someone else, unlike Gary, and occasionally Martin.
One would assume that the FA decided that the route would just be silly with out bolts (as E9 6b is) and probably would not get done if left unbolted.
In reply to Paz:
Which route is that?
> which was not headpointed (though techncially was) in the sense that it was not `top roped the f*ck out of'.
Which route is that?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Why did the route get re-named. That is not right, it should still be called Hey Gringo.
And E9? Only 6b, it must be scarier than Indian Face, which means looser and/or much more sustained. Hmmm
And E9? Only 6b, it must be scarier than Indian Face, which means looser and/or much more sustained. Hmmm
In reply to Nj:
There is no right and wrong here.
However, Lundy is thought by many to be a traditional climbing area - or at least no bolts.
An E9 grade has been proposed.
"Commenting on his ascent Neil said “I think the grade maybe E9 6b but I don't really have much experience of these kind of routes. This is what Charlie Woodburn and Dave Pickford thought and it did seem kinda tricky”. Time will tell if this is now Lundy’s hardest route and one of the few routes at this grade in the country that has not been head-pointed."
http://www.javu.co.uk/Climbing/News/index.shtml
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com) Why did the route get re-named. That is not right, it should still be called Hey Gringo.
There is no right and wrong here.
However, Lundy is thought by many to be a traditional climbing area - or at least no bolts.
> And E9? Only 6b, it must be scarier than Indian Face, which means looser and/or much more sustained. Hmmm
An E9 grade has been proposed.
"Commenting on his ascent Neil said “I think the grade maybe E9 6b but I don't really have much experience of these kind of routes. This is what Charlie Woodburn and Dave Pickford thought and it did seem kinda tricky”. Time will tell if this is now Lundy’s hardest route and one of the few routes at this grade in the country that has not been head-pointed."
http://www.javu.co.uk/Climbing/News/index.shtml
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Nice - is this the best style an E9 has been climbed in then, as he inspected it but didn't try any of the moves?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
If you think about the recent antics of dave Mac and the grades, the Hells Lum E10 is death 8a+, and If 6 was 9 is very dangerous 8a+, then if this one is 'only' english 6b, it must be full-on to warrant E9. Sounds terrifying.
As for the re-name, loads of routes get gear removed/added/changed, but the names don't change.
If you think about the recent antics of dave Mac and the grades, the Hells Lum E10 is death 8a+, and If 6 was 9 is very dangerous 8a+, then if this one is 'only' english 6b, it must be full-on to warrant E9. Sounds terrifying.
As for the re-name, loads of routes get gear removed/added/changed, but the names don't change.
In reply to Nj:
And some do have their route names changed. This used to be pretty standard when aid routes were free climbed.
It really is up to the climber and whether it is accepted by the climbing community and media (especially the guidebook author).
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> As for the re-name, loads of routes get gear removed/added/changed, but the names don't change.
And some do have their route names changed. This used to be pretty standard when aid routes were free climbed.
It really is up to the climber and whether it is accepted by the climbing community and media (especially the guidebook author).
In reply to TimS:
It's a proposed E9.......no one knows if it is E9 until it gets repeated in the same or better style and by someone who has a track record of E9 ascents.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com) Nice - is this the best style an E9 has been climbed in then, as he inspected it but didn't try any of the moves?
It's a proposed E9.......no one knows if it is E9 until it gets repeated in the same or better style and by someone who has a track record of E9 ascents.
In reply to Moacs:
"I have another question about how ethics may change if some bright young thing some day manages to top themselves pursuing an ehically pure ascent..."
People top themselves, young and old, being ethically pure, in the mountains, all the time. People also top themselves rock climbing. Many older climbers, especially mountaineers, are acutely aware of that. Climbing's a risk sport, , and some bright young thing dying isn't going to dissolve our collective zest for adventure; it's in the blood.
> (In reply to Paz)
"I have another question about how ethics may change if some bright young thing some day manages to top themselves pursuing an ehically pure ascent..."
People top themselves, young and old, being ethically pure, in the mountains, all the time. People also top themselves rock climbing. Many older climbers, especially mountaineers, are acutely aware of that. Climbing's a risk sport, , and some bright young thing dying isn't going to dissolve our collective zest for adventure; it's in the blood.
In reply to nz Cragrat:
Don't be such an idiot about things you know nothing about.
Apart from anything else, I suspect this route has not been repeated all with or without its bolts (anyone?). I know at least one capable team who visited the crag intending to do so and were so disgusted by Gibson's efforts they just left.
jcm
Don't be such an idiot about things you know nothing about.
Apart from anything else, I suspect this route has not been repeated all with or without its bolts (anyone?). I know at least one capable team who visited the crag intending to do so and were so disgusted by Gibson's efforts they just left.
jcm
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
>It really is up to the climber and whether it is accepted by the climbing community and media (especially the guidebook author).
And a wild guess says it will be. These routes have been begging to get cleaned up for years. Damn fine effort doing it in that style as well.
jcm
>It really is up to the climber and whether it is accepted by the climbing community and media (especially the guidebook author).
And a wild guess says it will be. These routes have been begging to get cleaned up for years. Damn fine effort doing it in that style as well.
jcm
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: One thing is for sure: Neil is an extremely bold climber, good effort to him, it doesn't matter if the grade is E9 so much, its been done in good style and required some balls.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Hi
Just to clear things up as these things often get blown out of proportion, my ascent of Hey Gringo was by no means onsight. I abb’d the line to clean it and take the bolts and whilst I was at it I couldn't help noticing that the crux run out would be really sustained and hard. I ended up going down to try the line three times (something to do with the Lundy bug and bad conditions) and each time I had a really good look at this crux section which I knew would be very serious. By the time I came to do it I had a fair idea of how I was going to do the moves on the crux run-out section; that said the rest of the route was not looked at and I very nearly blew the safer upper section on the lead.
As for the grade, the route was given E7 6b with five bolts in it. Without these the only gear for the 20ft crux section between you and the ground is an RP 0 and three skyhooks. Two of these fell off as soon as I stood up and if you fall off the crux move you'd take an 80 footer onto this gear so it's pretty bold. The climbing is very sequency, sustained and insecure; 6b moves aren’t easy especially when you have to do about 10 of them in a row, routes like 'Statement' only used to get E7 6b before French grades were introduced. The kind of climbing on Quetzalcoatl suits me down to the ground, I have onsighted numerous E7's of this style and think that if it was E8 I could have conceivably onsighting it. I think that Quetzalcoatl is way way harder than the E7's I’ve done and probably E9.
As for taking out the bolts, knowone to my knowledge had done the route since it was first done in 1988. I have never met anyone actually on Lundy who is in favour of any bolts on the island and they completely trash the character of the place. There are loads of places to go sport climbing but Lundys isn't one of them. Even Gary started taking out his own bolts in the end.
Hi
Just to clear things up as these things often get blown out of proportion, my ascent of Hey Gringo was by no means onsight. I abb’d the line to clean it and take the bolts and whilst I was at it I couldn't help noticing that the crux run out would be really sustained and hard. I ended up going down to try the line three times (something to do with the Lundy bug and bad conditions) and each time I had a really good look at this crux section which I knew would be very serious. By the time I came to do it I had a fair idea of how I was going to do the moves on the crux run-out section; that said the rest of the route was not looked at and I very nearly blew the safer upper section on the lead.
As for the grade, the route was given E7 6b with five bolts in it. Without these the only gear for the 20ft crux section between you and the ground is an RP 0 and three skyhooks. Two of these fell off as soon as I stood up and if you fall off the crux move you'd take an 80 footer onto this gear so it's pretty bold. The climbing is very sequency, sustained and insecure; 6b moves aren’t easy especially when you have to do about 10 of them in a row, routes like 'Statement' only used to get E7 6b before French grades were introduced. The kind of climbing on Quetzalcoatl suits me down to the ground, I have onsighted numerous E7's of this style and think that if it was E8 I could have conceivably onsighting it. I think that Quetzalcoatl is way way harder than the E7's I’ve done and probably E9.
As for taking out the bolts, knowone to my knowledge had done the route since it was first done in 1988. I have never met anyone actually on Lundy who is in favour of any bolts on the island and they completely trash the character of the place. There are loads of places to go sport climbing but Lundys isn't one of them. Even Gary started taking out his own bolts in the end.
In reply to mea03ned:
Thanks Neil.
I've put your comments up on the news page.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
Thanks Neil.
I've put your comments up on the news page.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
In reply to Fred Mead:
For someone who took a year out, you (still) come out with a lot of naive ignorant shit. Read the guidebook. Why've you never been to the place, it's not much more than 100 miles from you house?
In reply to Tyler:
Indian Face. Johnny Brown's convinced he only ever abseiled down most of his routes.
In reply to Wry Gob:
I think he wasn't talking about someone intentionally topping themselves. I consider the following situation - what would happen if Caff or Ross was diagnosed with imminent terminal untreatable bollock cancer, god forbid? If they or anyone then decided they wanted to go for it and achieve what noone else could with what little they had left, I'd be like Go Dave, Go James, Go Leo, Go Neil, Go Adrian! Go anyone who did that. However I think desire for life is a big motivation amongst those doing hard bold onsights. I personally think this is why it doesn't work on eliminates (for me at least).
Anyone want to talk about Harry Potter?
For someone who took a year out, you (still) come out with a lot of naive ignorant shit. Read the guidebook. Why've you never been to the place, it's not much more than 100 miles from you house?
In reply to Tyler:
Indian Face. Johnny Brown's convinced he only ever abseiled down most of his routes.
In reply to Wry Gob:
I think he wasn't talking about someone intentionally topping themselves. I consider the following situation - what would happen if Caff or Ross was diagnosed with imminent terminal untreatable bollock cancer, god forbid? If they or anyone then decided they wanted to go for it and achieve what noone else could with what little they had left, I'd be like Go Dave, Go James, Go Leo, Go Neil, Go Adrian! Go anyone who did that. However I think desire for life is a big motivation amongst those doing hard bold onsights. I personally think this is why it doesn't work on eliminates (for me at least).
Anyone want to talk about Harry Potter?
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