UKC

A post a made in another thread may be worth airing more directly; I await any reactions with interest!

'The Climbing weall Award is intended to incorporate a substantial element of basic movement 'coaching' at the levl of being able to identify weaknesses in techniques and the ability to focus on some basic concepts of climbing movement to enable suggestions to improve performance. We're probably looking at a level 1 coach here - so nothing too fancy. The aim of the award is to not only try to ensure that folks working in walls are able to do so competently but also recognises that in a relatively controlled environment you can focus on things other than keeping the group alive! There is also the potential to work with a group over a longer period and so the idea that you can help them progress is good.

Fighting the temptation to get all jargonistic and UKCCish I would also flag up the fact that there is a working party currently looking at the issue of coaching in the wider field of mountaineering (not just climbing - although that is where the emphsis may lie). I can't prejudge where we go with this but one possible scenario might be the offering of a range of coaching modules, separate from the current awards but linked to them as definitions of the 'work place', enabling the development of coaching skills. This development might produce an SPA with level 4 coaching working with the national squad and an MIC with level 2 coaching doing basic ice-work in the Northern Corries.'

In reply to Andy Say:
'Cos the Training Boards are about ready to launch the Climbing Wall Award in a few months - aimed at those with no real aspiration to work outside but with the skills and experience to 'supervise' participants on walls.

In reply to Andy Say:

Is there any decision on what level of qualification will be needed to run this scheme yet?

In reply to timjones:
The same as SPA in terms of pure quals (MIA/C or BMG) although there's some additionals in that all providers must have gone through some coaching input sessions and must have links with a commercial wall. Applications so far are mainly from existing providers but there is a significan number coming from folks (especially dahn sarf) who have a good history of running wall schemes but haven't been involved with SPA or ML before.

In reply to Andy Say:

I have some serious concerns about pitching the providers at such a high level, there is no way you need a full blown MIA to provide this level of training and assessment. Would it not be better to lower the requirements for providers and enable the voluntary sector to more fully embrace the scheme?

In reply to Andy Say: We discussed this before and I do think that solution you mention with regard to coaching quals standing alongs side instructional qualifications is the only way forward in the short and medium term.

I'm working towards both my MIA and ML(W) currently, I'd be very keen to improve my ability to coach but whilst there are loads of resources out there that you can study in order to improve your hard skills there is a dearth of information/guidance on basic climbing coaching especially with regards to structured progessions for beginners/intermediates over a period of time.

I think one of the highest priorities should be the production of a fairly comprehensive resousre (a text book probably? or online resource?) that supports coaching in the same manner that Eirc Langmuir's book has supported ML Awards and newer texts like Liddy Peter's support SPA/MIA.

Once you have a good and approved coaching resource in place it is then far easier for potential award holders to learn, practice and be assessed at a suitable level.

I'm not sure what is already in the pipeline and will be in place when the Award is launched but I wait developments with interest.

I'm not sure if that was the sort of comment you were hoping to elicit?

Mark

In reply to timjones:
When you are making a decision about where to draw the line you have to base that decision upon the skills and competencies that you can be fairly sure the 'weakest' award holder will have - they may not be a strong 'Pass' but they still tick the box! If you start making decisions based upon more qualitative value judgements then you are open to accusations of favouritism and bias. I am fairly happy that most if not all MIA/C and BMG carnet holders have the skills we want: not convinced that all SPA holders have those competencies.
I would hope that the voluntary sector do find a use for the award BUT we will still support site-specific and local accreditation schemes for those for whom that is more appropriate. I know that we're open to accusations of setting the bar too high BUT anyone holding this award should be able to walk into any wall in the country and work; and that is a fairly high bar!

In reply to Mark Stevenson:
I believe that there's two books in the pipeline; there's spooky! paulatwork who posts on UKC is working on one to do with movement skills and games (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong) and I understand a more general coaching skills volume is also under development.

In reply to timjones:

As an existing SPA and aspirant MIA I can see where you are coming from. However given a choice between SPAs delivering the training or MIAs I'd say there is no question in my mind - SPA in no way equips people to instruct and assess at a suitable level. That leaves MIA as the only option by default.

Until such time as the instruction of climbing and mountaineering are separated in the UK (if they ever are!) we are stuck with MIA as the lowest suitable qualification. This is just another minor issue that potentially influences that debate about whether there should be seperate CI and MI awards such that there is a progression from SPA that does not require the award holder to also be an accomplished hillwalker.

M

In reply to Andy Say: I await the new books with interest.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

Or an award or more likely a number of awards that bridge the gap.

Equally well if MIAs or MICs are half waht they're cracked up to be they should be well capable of checking out if an SPA holder has the skills to instruct and assess the CWA. The question is are they willing to do so?


It seems to me that there is no serious and sensible debate on this matter.

In reply to Andy Say:

We can find a use for the award but not at the cost that the MIA requirement sets it at. If and when we can be licnced to deliver the award it should really fly.

Bear in mind that at least one scout county has been delivering training and assessment to this level for the last 2 years. The CWA syllabus could almost be a copy of what we have developed in 99% of it's content.

I find it laughable that in in their belated efforts to fill this gap the MLTB's have somehow decreed that we aren't fit to do it all of a sudden.

In reply to timjones: Thats a bit stong Tim. Andy and the MLT Boards havent said that you're not fit to do anything. What they are saying (IMHO) is that they have developed a national framework for a transferable award within the context of the other exisitng national awards. So as the current scheme stands (and I'm not expressing an opinion either way on that one) the appropriate person to deliver the award is an MIA or higher since the majority of MIAs will have the experience necessary to make a judgement on the candidate (whereas a significant proprtion of SPAs may not).
The award is attempting to produce something that works to a UK wide standard and is transferable. A county wide award is perfectly valid as a small pool of trainers will probably know or see everyone who holds it. The boards have to create an award delivered by people they trust to maintain a standard but dont see working on a regular basis to people who in turn will be working all over the country unsupervised - this means quite a high level of rigour is required when determining the experience of trainers/assessors. So the existing award that deals with coaching and training/assessing awards (there is time dedicated to this at training) is the MIA. Experienced SPAs and MLs work on courses for MIAs but when it comes to Course Directing the syllabus for SPA and ML in no way prepares the majority of holders of these awards for delivering others.
Note thats just my reading of the situation and I in no way represent the Boards although yes I am and MIC holder and an SPA provider.
Al

In reply to AlH:

I presume that it's clear that I'm not saying that this award should or could be provided by SPA's but that I would like to see a system where people below MIA level could be trained and licenced to deliver the award.

The failing, as I see it is, that we are trying to pick a qualification for providers within a framework that has huge gaps in it. Maybe we need a different approoach to accreditation to run the award?

In reply to timjones:
Well there is the option for SPA holders to be involved in the training courses for the new award; but under the direction of an approved provider.

And you're part right about the discussion re the future of the MIA; there IS debate about the future direction but, as yet, it hasn't reached a level that could be called serious. Mark's suggestion about the separation of 'Rock' and 'Mountain' activities does have the appeal of providing a higher qualification to those who don't want muddy boots! The counter has to be that a more generalist qualification enhances employability and ancourages a broad overview on the part of the Instructor. It's an interesting debate that has to come up some time.

In reply to timjones:
>>
I know that there are pockets of exemplary practice within the Scouts; I cite them often enough in discussion with others relating to the Scout permit scheme! Unfortunately that good practice seems not to be standardised and universal.

The training boards are committed to the idea that there is more than one way to competence; we'd never say that people are incompetent simply because of a lack of formal qualification. Our problem is that we have to devise a system that is universally deliverable, transferable, not tied to any particular organisaton or employer and regarded as viable by the walls where these people might be operating.

If you could send me a copy of the scheme that you'd developed I'd be very interested - ours is viewable through www.mltuk.org for anyone wanting a look.

In reply to Andy Say:

I think that the degree to which this could be of value to voluntary organisations is really dependent on the amount of contact that a course director has to have. If they must have a physical presence on each and every course it is of fairly limited value. If they could "assess" and delegate people whilst "sitting in" on a few courses to ensure quality is maintained it could have real potential.


I really like getting my boots muddy in the mountains, but sadly time limitations mean that I either have to specialise or risk becoming "jack of all trades, master of none." I firmly believe that the voluntary sector is better off with people who use their time wisely to strive for excellence in limited areas rather than doing a lot of activities to a lower standard.


I did suggest to Phil Thomas that it would be a good "workshop" at the MLTA conference, he doesn't appear to have taken the idea up. Perhaps he's lost his tin hat

In reply to Andy Say:


I'll check up with my fellow trainers and with their approval you will receive a copy. We're still fine tuning and tweaking what we provide with every course we run and part of this involves an ongoing expansion of the coaching element.

We are seriously considering fine tuning a few things to match the CWA. Whether or not we can deliver the course and assessment itself there are advantages to running a similar syllabus.

In reply to timjones:
Maybe I should strap on my body armour and offer a workshop on progression routes for SPA and ML holders?

In reply to Andy Say:

Well, if as long as it was possible to fit in some practical stuff as well and subject to me regaining access to the MLTA site in time to book my place, I'd be in the front row. You may or may not see this as a good thing

In reply to Andy Say:

Thanks for the plug Andy!

You are correct the book that I am working on is all about coaching of movement skills through the use of games. But there will be some coaching skills covered in there as well. The main body of all the chapters are almost complete, and I have just set the date for the first set of photos to be taken, early November. We (me and Pesda Press) are looking to publish this in early spring.

Coaching of movement skills is something that I have been putting into all of my SPA training courses and is something that has gone down very well, with the candidates. I look forward to doing more of these coaching sessions with the new climbing wall award, as that is more flexible with time.