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Having had conversations with its originator, Nick Dixon, regarding his route Nomad together with a lot of comments regarding my own routes This Won't Hurt and the Screaming Skull, it has been overwhelmingly suggested that these three routes be bolted.
Whilst I understand the hoo-ha that this may cause, they all have significant numbers of decaying fixed gear (pegs, threads and 6inch nails on Nomad and Skull together with three bolts and a peg on TWH) and are very rarely repeated these days and after all this is a disused quarry of quarried limestone
Bolting them up would bring them in line with the remainder of the routes in the quarry and make them more easily accessible and more importantly keep three great routes clean.
And before anybody says anything, those that know me will know that I feel very uncertain about such a venture as I have always wanted to maintain them in their original form - of course with the fixed gear replaced.
What is the general consensus on this?
Whilst I understand the hoo-ha that this may cause, they all have significant numbers of decaying fixed gear (pegs, threads and 6inch nails on Nomad and Skull together with three bolts and a peg on TWH) and are very rarely repeated these days and after all this is a disused quarry of quarried limestone
Bolting them up would bring them in line with the remainder of the routes in the quarry and make them more easily accessible and more importantly keep three great routes clean.
And before anybody says anything, those that know me will know that I feel very uncertain about such a venture as I have always wanted to maintain them in their original form - of course with the fixed gear replaced.
What is the general consensus on this?
In reply to Gary Gibson:
Hi Gary,
We can raise at the next BMC Cymru/Wales meeting if you like 24th Nov 6.00pm Plas y Brenin
Mike Raine
Chair BMC Cymru
Hi Gary,
We can raise at the next BMC Cymru/Wales meeting if you like 24th Nov 6.00pm Plas y Brenin
Mike Raine
Chair BMC Cymru
In reply to Gary Gibson:
Hopefully this will get some more attention on here, it's good of you to post about it asking for a consensus. In fact very good of you, I respect that, it's what I (and many others) would liked to have seen about North Wales Slate retro-bolting.
As for the issue at stake, like many such issues it is not clear cut.
For retro-bolting:
Decaying fixed gear needs replacing.
Quarry is predominantly sport climbing.
Type of climbing (quarried lime) is consensus as fair game for sport.
Would give a more popular resource on that wall.
Against retro-bolting:
Routes look to be pretty good in their own right as trad (or mixed) routes.
One option would be to keep them as mixed routes but with new "like for like" fixed gear.
Retro-bolting those routes would leave the Black Wall as the only trad venue in the quarry - and this could lead to pressure to retro Black Wall which definitely shouldn't happen.
I'm not really sure....I haven't climbed them but I have climbed in the quarry (and many other lime quarries, and many other Clwyd crags), and I did vaguely aspire to lead This Won't Hurt in it's current form. But looking at both sides of the issue there doesn't seem to be a clear answer...
Hopefully this will get some more attention on here, it's good of you to post about it asking for a consensus. In fact very good of you, I respect that, it's what I (and many others) would liked to have seen about North Wales Slate retro-bolting.
As for the issue at stake, like many such issues it is not clear cut.
For retro-bolting:
Decaying fixed gear needs replacing.
Quarry is predominantly sport climbing.
Type of climbing (quarried lime) is consensus as fair game for sport.
Would give a more popular resource on that wall.
Against retro-bolting:
Routes look to be pretty good in their own right as trad (or mixed) routes.
One option would be to keep them as mixed routes but with new "like for like" fixed gear.
Retro-bolting those routes would leave the Black Wall as the only trad venue in the quarry - and this could lead to pressure to retro Black Wall which definitely shouldn't happen.
I'm not really sure....I haven't climbed them but I have climbed in the quarry (and many other lime quarries, and many other Clwyd crags), and I did vaguely aspire to lead This Won't Hurt in it's current form. But looking at both sides of the issue there doesn't seem to be a clear answer...
In reply to Gary Gibson:
I climbed Nomad at the end of last summer along with some of the sport routes in Llanymynech. And, after climbing quite a lot through that summer i can honestly say Nomad was one of the best. The Sport routes were fine, but they were, after all, just sport routes. To this day i still remember setting off from the ledge on Nomad, pulling from break to break,cleaning mud from my hands, hanging in, placing gear,chalking up, reversing,wiping feet, working out the moves, looking for the next gear placement...and then finally, when you think its over the crux...
The thought of looking up, seeing and knowing i can protect the moves in a second with a quickdraw will and would have taken away the excitement, the adventure,the uncertanty and i think would make Nomad as forgetable as the other bolted routes.
Are you serious when you say it is only quarried limestone? Admittedly i have only climbed the one route on this wall but it was as good as any on Dinas Cromlech and what does it matter if it is in an old quarry.
Some of the more difficult routes on the mountain crags in Britain are dirty and will always be dirty. I dont see this as a reason to bolt them so they get more traffic.
Finally, taking the risk of sounding like Ken, where will it all stop. It isnt just quarried limestone, or just a few seldom climbed climbs, its a great deal more and goes a lot deeper. I hoped to get to Llanymynech again this summer to attempt The Screaming Skull and This Wont Hurt, unfortunately i didnt get chance, but i really hope when i do, these climbs have not been fully bolted, it will really affect such great trad routes.
all the best
Nick
> Having had conversations with its originator, Nick Dixon, regarding his route Nomad together with a lot of comments regarding my own routes This Won't Hurt and the Screaming Skull, it has been overwhelmingly suggested that these three routes be bolted.
>
> Whilst I understand the hoo-ha that this may cause, they all have significant numbers of decaying fixed gear (pegs, threads and 6inch nails on Nomad and Skull together with three bolts and a peg on TWH) and are very rarely repeated these days and after all this is a disused quarry of quarried limestone
>
Hi Gary,>
> Whilst I understand the hoo-ha that this may cause, they all have significant numbers of decaying fixed gear (pegs, threads and 6inch nails on Nomad and Skull together with three bolts and a peg on TWH) and are very rarely repeated these days and after all this is a disused quarry of quarried limestone
>
I climbed Nomad at the end of last summer along with some of the sport routes in Llanymynech. And, after climbing quite a lot through that summer i can honestly say Nomad was one of the best. The Sport routes were fine, but they were, after all, just sport routes. To this day i still remember setting off from the ledge on Nomad, pulling from break to break,cleaning mud from my hands, hanging in, placing gear,chalking up, reversing,wiping feet, working out the moves, looking for the next gear placement...and then finally, when you think its over the crux...
The thought of looking up, seeing and knowing i can protect the moves in a second with a quickdraw will and would have taken away the excitement, the adventure,the uncertanty and i think would make Nomad as forgetable as the other bolted routes.
Are you serious when you say it is only quarried limestone? Admittedly i have only climbed the one route on this wall but it was as good as any on Dinas Cromlech and what does it matter if it is in an old quarry.
Some of the more difficult routes on the mountain crags in Britain are dirty and will always be dirty. I dont see this as a reason to bolt them so they get more traffic.
Finally, taking the risk of sounding like Ken, where will it all stop. It isnt just quarried limestone, or just a few seldom climbed climbs, its a great deal more and goes a lot deeper. I hoped to get to Llanymynech again this summer to attempt The Screaming Skull and This Wont Hurt, unfortunately i didnt get chance, but i really hope when i do, these climbs have not been fully bolted, it will really affect such great trad routes.
all the best
Nick
In reply to Gary Gibson: never been there, dont know the route but if they were done as trad they should stay that way. Trad is goo in a different way to sport
In reply to tonanf:
If they are your creations I think you should do what you want with them.
Particularly since many things were done in an era of different economic and ethical ideas.
I have happily retrbolted (by my own choice) some of my routes that were put up with different parameters to today eg no money no tools available, prior knowledge of trick and hidden placements. Why wait unti someone is seriously injured to feel bad about it?
If they are your creations I think you should do what you want with them.
Particularly since many things were done in an era of different economic and ethical ideas.
I have happily retrbolted (by my own choice) some of my routes that were put up with different parameters to today eg no money no tools available, prior knowledge of trick and hidden placements. Why wait unti someone is seriously injured to feel bad about it?
In reply to Gary Gibson: Hi gary, Nick mentioned this proposal that you had told him about to me. I Tried an on sight of This won't hurt last year, and had to lower off one of the bolts, that was cause i was crap and scared .
Having failed on that i thought i tried my hand at the next grade up and went for Nomad thinking "with all them pegs, it's probably like a sport route anyway". I remember absolutely crapping myself all tyhe way up to within twenty feet of the top that i decided to lower off due to the biggest pump i've ever had. It felt like nobody had climbed the route for years due to the dirtyness, so it's interesting to hear that Mr Bullock did it. It was probably right up his street being in it's current chossy state.
Personally i would be for them being bolted as they would make cracking sports routes, especially once a litle more cleaned up. However tahty is a selfish view because i could not climb them in their current states. At least i still have the E3.
I think in there Trad states they will see very little attention and if retro bolted will create very popular sport routes . . .
Maybe they should just have a few lower off points first to encourage some top roping and headpointing and get some traffic on them, i think i;m right in saying the tree anchors are pretty far back.
Ed Booth
Having failed on that i thought i tried my hand at the next grade up and went for Nomad thinking "with all them pegs, it's probably like a sport route anyway". I remember absolutely crapping myself all tyhe way up to within twenty feet of the top that i decided to lower off due to the biggest pump i've ever had. It felt like nobody had climbed the route for years due to the dirtyness, so it's interesting to hear that Mr Bullock did it. It was probably right up his street being in it's current chossy state.
Personally i would be for them being bolted as they would make cracking sports routes, especially once a litle more cleaned up. However tahty is a selfish view because i could not climb them in their current states. At least i still have the E3.
I think in there Trad states they will see very little attention and if retro bolted will create very popular sport routes . . .
Maybe they should just have a few lower off points first to encourage some top roping and headpointing and get some traffic on them, i think i;m right in saying the tree anchors are pretty far back.
Ed Booth
In reply to Gary Gibson: and as a side, i on sighted Grid Iron this year, a route i had been meaning to try for years. When i went to do it, despite going there regularly, i turned up to find it had been retro bolted. I led it on trad ignoring the bolts and just topping out. It was really nice on trad. If people like Nick want to climb the routes on trad gear you still can. Ed
In reply to Veronica:
Isn't Llanymynech on the wrong side of the border for you lot?
More seriously, how popular are the sports routes vis a vis the trad routes? Hard trad routes never seem to get as many ascents as sports routes of the same technical difficulty but its hardly surprising considering. But as this thread has rather quickly revealed one onsight of the route and one brave attempt, it doesn't sound like these routes are never climbed, even if Llanymynech isn't particularly mainstream.
> We can raise at the next BMC Cymru/Wales meeting if you like 24th Nov 6.00pm Plas y Brenin
Isn't Llanymynech on the wrong side of the border for you lot?
More seriously, how popular are the sports routes vis a vis the trad routes? Hard trad routes never seem to get as many ascents as sports routes of the same technical difficulty but its hardly surprising considering. But as this thread has rather quickly revealed one onsight of the route and one brave attempt, it doesn't sound like these routes are never climbed, even if Llanymynech isn't particularly mainstream.
In reply to Gary Gibson:
I vote no on this one. They look like really good trad routes whether there's rotting in-situ gear on them or not. I'm not automatically anti-bolting (I've sent you a donation for bolting in the past). I think there are enough bolt routes at Llanymynech. I've enjoyed bolted and trad routes there, and I think having the mix is a nice aspect of the quarry at present.
Lack of traffic is too often used as an excuse for retrobolting. By that argument we should bolt pretty much everything. Why not make every path a main road?
Whilst we're on the subject, I also take objection to the notion that the first ascensionist should have such a strong say in the retrobolting decision. They do not own either the route or the rock. Indeed, it is likely that the first ascensionist will not want to climb the route again. We should be looking more to the future and less to the past.
Do we want a future where the only hard trad routes are on gritstone, sea-cliffs and the mountains?
I vote no on this one. They look like really good trad routes whether there's rotting in-situ gear on them or not. I'm not automatically anti-bolting (I've sent you a donation for bolting in the past). I think there are enough bolt routes at Llanymynech. I've enjoyed bolted and trad routes there, and I think having the mix is a nice aspect of the quarry at present.
Lack of traffic is too often used as an excuse for retrobolting. By that argument we should bolt pretty much everything. Why not make every path a main road?
Whilst we're on the subject, I also take objection to the notion that the first ascensionist should have such a strong say in the retrobolting decision. They do not own either the route or the rock. Indeed, it is likely that the first ascensionist will not want to climb the route again. We should be looking more to the future and less to the past.
Do we want a future where the only hard trad routes are on gritstone, sea-cliffs and the mountains?
In reply to Gary Gibson:
It's up to the original ascensionists to decide whether it should be rebolted. If you both think so then do it. Any climb i have bolted, if someone asked me if i minded it being rebolted, then i would say "If you feel it would be safer, then do it"
It's up to the original ascensionists to decide whether it should be rebolted. If you both think so then do it. Any climb i have bolted, if someone asked me if i minded it being rebolted, then i would say "If you feel it would be safer, then do it"
In reply to Gary Gibson:
Looking at the spread of grades, bolting these would remove the hardest trad routes in the quarry. There are already sport routes of an equivalent grade so keeping these as trad would maintain the options to lead hard trad and hard sport. Even if the trad routes don't get as much traffic it seems that there are people who would lead them.
As has been said, if these were bolted it would only leave Black Wall unbolted and then that would make it more likely that Black Wall gets bolted in future.
Just my 2p from one who bimbles at the lower grades.
Looking at the spread of grades, bolting these would remove the hardest trad routes in the quarry. There are already sport routes of an equivalent grade so keeping these as trad would maintain the options to lead hard trad and hard sport. Even if the trad routes don't get as much traffic it seems that there are people who would lead them.
As has been said, if these were bolted it would only leave Black Wall unbolted and then that would make it more likely that Black Wall gets bolted in future.
Just my 2p from one who bimbles at the lower grades.
In reply to chris fox:
Some say it is, some say it isn't!
> (In reply to Gary Gibson)
>
> It's up to the original ascensionists to decide whether it should be rebolted.
>
> It's up to the original ascensionists to decide whether it should be rebolted.
Some say it is, some say it isn't!
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I think that this concept of first ascenionists being the sole arbiter of retrobolting decisions, needs to be seriously called into question.
> (In reply to chris fox)
> [...]
>
> Some say it is, some say it isn't!
> [...]
>
> Some say it is, some say it isn't!
I think that this concept of first ascenionists being the sole arbiter of retrobolting decisions, needs to be seriously called into question.
In reply to TobyA:
doesnt the border run up black wall and then weaves about a bit, think red wall is in shropshire though.
As a local resident i'm for a few more sport routes there especially on this seldom climbed wall, although ed had an adventure on it and saw a local guy called mike having a crack at it in the summer.
Grid iron wall has definitely benefitted from a bit of traffic.
Would be happy to contribute to a few bolts, if a local fund exists??
doesnt the border run up black wall and then weaves about a bit, think red wall is in shropshire though.
As a local resident i'm for a few more sport routes there especially on this seldom climbed wall, although ed had an adventure on it and saw a local guy called mike having a crack at it in the summer.
Grid iron wall has definitely benefitted from a bit of traffic.
Would be happy to contribute to a few bolts, if a local fund exists??
In reply to Hugh Cottam:
Guess i have spent too much time in other parts of the world where climbs are re-bolted/retro-bolted to make them safe and get people to climb on them.
As i see it from the original thread, there are 3 climbs which rarely get climbed because of decaying protection.
So they stay rarely climbed or people can go climb them knowing the won't end up in a bodybag. Mmmmmm after all thats what this sport is isn't it, a sport.
Guess i have spent too much time in other parts of the world where climbs are re-bolted/retro-bolted to make them safe and get people to climb on them.
As i see it from the original thread, there are 3 climbs which rarely get climbed because of decaying protection.
So they stay rarely climbed or people can go climb them knowing the won't end up in a bodybag. Mmmmmm after all thats what this sport is isn't it, a sport.
In reply to Gary Gibson:
I would support bolting them - I haven't been on the routes in question but have done a lot of the sport climbs on Red Wall and Grid Iron Wall. The quarry as a whole seems more suitable for sport climbing that trad and from the sound of it the routes on Nomad wall already have a large amount of fixed grear.
The argument about the quality of them as a trad routes holds some weight but I don't buy the 'it'll just be another sport route argument' - its not like there's a huge number of real quality sport routes in the high 6's / low 7's in the north of the UK.
As to people worrying about the loss of quality trad limestone E5/E6s - aren't we already at risk of 'losing' classic routes at those grades on mainstream trad limestone crags such as Chee Tor, High Tor etc to mix a dust, vegetation and rotting gear. Chee Tor is one of the few trad crags I've climbed at in the last few years and I was amazed by how dirty some of the classic routes were.
Overall I think that on the whole we have the balance pretty right as to what is bolted on what isn't on UK limestone - the big problem on the trad side imo seems to be that there doesn't seem to be that many people interested in climbing the trad routes. I'm not
sure what can be done about this - particularly since I'm one of those people who generally sticks to the bolts these days (though I still cling to the hope that when my daughters older and I have more time that will change!).
I would support bolting them - I haven't been on the routes in question but have done a lot of the sport climbs on Red Wall and Grid Iron Wall. The quarry as a whole seems more suitable for sport climbing that trad and from the sound of it the routes on Nomad wall already have a large amount of fixed grear.
The argument about the quality of them as a trad routes holds some weight but I don't buy the 'it'll just be another sport route argument' - its not like there's a huge number of real quality sport routes in the high 6's / low 7's in the north of the UK.
As to people worrying about the loss of quality trad limestone E5/E6s - aren't we already at risk of 'losing' classic routes at those grades on mainstream trad limestone crags such as Chee Tor, High Tor etc to mix a dust, vegetation and rotting gear. Chee Tor is one of the few trad crags I've climbed at in the last few years and I was amazed by how dirty some of the classic routes were.
Overall I think that on the whole we have the balance pretty right as to what is bolted on what isn't on UK limestone - the big problem on the trad side imo seems to be that there doesn't seem to be that many people interested in climbing the trad routes. I'm not
sure what can be done about this - particularly since I'm one of those people who generally sticks to the bolts these days (though I still cling to the hope that when my daughters older and I have more time that will change!).
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Down in the SW it's clearly written into all the BMC area policies whether it is or not!
John
> Some say it is, some say it isn't! [Up to the first ascensionist]
Down in the SW it's clearly written into all the BMC area policies whether it is or not!
John
In reply to Ian Patterson:
Yes, but fashions change and dirty routes can always be cleaned. It's very difficult to return a sport route to trad status.
I agree, though the balance is continually in flux. How long before people wish to bolt High Tor and Chee Tor. I agree that they're very dirty these days. Generally that doesn't stop you climbing them, it just makes them slightly harder.
Retro-bolting is a steady tide that only moves in one direction. It's a continual question of what is gained and what is lost.
> aren't we already at risk of 'losing' classic routes at
> those grades on mainstream trad limestone crags such as
> Chee Tor, High Tor etc to mix a dust, vegetation and rotting gear.
> those grades on mainstream trad limestone crags such as
> Chee Tor, High Tor etc to mix a dust, vegetation and rotting gear.
Yes, but fashions change and dirty routes can always be cleaned. It's very difficult to return a sport route to trad status.
>
> Overall I think that on the whole we have the balance
> pretty right as to what is bolted on what isn't on UK limestone.
> Overall I think that on the whole we have the balance
> pretty right as to what is bolted on what isn't on UK limestone.
I agree, though the balance is continually in flux. How long before people wish to bolt High Tor and Chee Tor. I agree that they're very dirty these days. Generally that doesn't stop you climbing them, it just makes them slightly harder.
Retro-bolting is a steady tide that only moves in one direction. It's a continual question of what is gained and what is lost.
In reply to Hugh Cottam:
I think the route I did at Kilnsey, called Comedy needs its bolts pulling, holes filled in and done using trad gear - no pegs, bolts, or insitu slings.
> (In reply to Ian Patterson)
> [...]
>
> Yes, but fashions change and dirty routes can always be cleaned. It's very difficult to return a sport route to trad status.
> [...]
>
> Yes, but fashions change and dirty routes can always be cleaned. It's very difficult to return a sport route to trad status.
I think the route I did at Kilnsey, called Comedy needs its bolts pulling, holes filled in and done using trad gear - no pegs, bolts, or insitu slings.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
And the current ethic would suggest that if you really wanted that, as the FA you would be able to do it.
And the current ethic would suggest that if you really wanted that, as the FA you would be able to do it.
In reply to Hugh Cottam:
This is I guess is the crux of the matter - I don't know if it is a steady tide moving in one direction or it has been / is a sorting out of routes into the best form.
Take Malham - the right wing and terrace are undoubtably excellent trad areas and I see no view that supports bolting them, at the sime time the catwalk and upper tier are now full on sport areas and are (imo) best like that. Has the tidying up (bolting!) of say Tremelo increased the risk of bolting the right wing? Similarly I don't believe that the bolting of the likes of Max wall is a bad thing - I would argue that the routes are much better bolted than they were (and I did do one of them at E3 6a with a single bolt in the dim and distant past!).
> (In reply to Ian Patterson)
>
> I agree, though the balance is continually in flux. How long before people wish to bolt High Tor and Chee Tor. I agree that they're very dirty these days. Generally that doesn't stop you climbing them, it just makes them slightly harder.
>
> Retro-bolting is a steady tide that only moves in one direction. It's a continual question of what is gained and what is lost.
>
> I agree, though the balance is continually in flux. How long before people wish to bolt High Tor and Chee Tor. I agree that they're very dirty these days. Generally that doesn't stop you climbing them, it just makes them slightly harder.
>
> Retro-bolting is a steady tide that only moves in one direction. It's a continual question of what is gained and what is lost.
This is I guess is the crux of the matter - I don't know if it is a steady tide moving in one direction or it has been / is a sorting out of routes into the best form.
Take Malham - the right wing and terrace are undoubtably excellent trad areas and I see no view that supports bolting them, at the sime time the catwalk and upper tier are now full on sport areas and are (imo) best like that. Has the tidying up (bolting!) of say Tremelo increased the risk of bolting the right wing? Similarly I don't believe that the bolting of the likes of Max wall is a bad thing - I would argue that the routes are much better bolted than they were (and I did do one of them at E3 6a with a single bolt in the dim and distant past!).
In reply to hutchm:
What current ethic?
I actually believe that the first ascensionist does not have any "rights," well not anymore than anybody else that climbs!
I don't 'own" Comedy or any other first ascents I have happened to do.
It is the climbing community as a whole, made up of individuals, who determine where bolts go.
Or perhaps better it the action of individuals that determine where bolts go and where they don't.
So, if Gary wants to place bolts, he can just go ahead. BUT, he may be swayed by public opinion!!!!
Full marks for him coming on here and opening this debate.
Mick
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> And the current ethic would suggest that if you really wanted that, as the FA you would be able to do it.
>
> And the current ethic would suggest that if you really wanted that, as the FA you would be able to do it.
What current ethic?
I actually believe that the first ascensionist does not have any "rights," well not anymore than anybody else that climbs!
I don't 'own" Comedy or any other first ascents I have happened to do.
It is the climbing community as a whole, made up of individuals, who determine where bolts go.
Or perhaps better it the action of individuals that determine where bolts go and where they don't.
So, if Gary wants to place bolts, he can just go ahead. BUT, he may be swayed by public opinion!!!!
Full marks for him coming on here and opening this debate.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Unless it's North Wales slate, of course.
Yet, on the Slate subject, the debate was opened on here, and a lot of people showed concern about the issue - more people showing concern than there were people (local activists) defending the un-debated bolting - and you (subtly, via news items etc) took the side of the minority of activists. Public opinion (when backed by some discussion/reasoning) is a good thing IF people actually heed it...
Just a passing observation.
> It is the climbing community as a whole, made up of individuals, who determine where bolts go.
Unless it's North Wales slate, of course.
> Full marks for him coming on here and opening this debate.
Yet, on the Slate subject, the debate was opened on here, and a lot of people showed concern about the issue - more people showing concern than there were people (local activists) defending the un-debated bolting - and you (subtly, via news items etc) took the side of the minority of activists. Public opinion (when backed by some discussion/reasoning) is a good thing IF people actually heed it...
Just a passing observation.
In reply to Fiend:
In reply to Fiend:
You've got to fully understand what I am saying and I don't think you do.
If you object to a bolt, you take it out.
I told Stuart Wood this at the Lakes BMC meeting. You don't write on internet forums or shout down meetings.
You quietly go to the crag and take out the bolt, and take it out well with decent camo'. I did this on Deja Vu at Kilnsey many years ago.
As regards Welsh slate: always the locals of an area are the guardians of an area, acting as custodians for the rest of us. In them we put our trust.
The re-equipping and retrobolting on the slate has been executed by many North Wales locals, after wider discussion, but you will never ever (eat a tomato) get a concensus, at some time you have to act.
If you don't like it: pull the bolts, but I don't think you will. If you do we shall write a news report about it.
This is not a black and white issue by any means and this debate has been ongoing since the early 1980's and will continue to do so.
Mick
In reply to Fiend:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>> [...]
> Just a passing observation.
You've got to fully understand what I am saying and I don't think you do.
If you object to a bolt, you take it out.
I told Stuart Wood this at the Lakes BMC meeting. You don't write on internet forums or shout down meetings.
You quietly go to the crag and take out the bolt, and take it out well with decent camo'. I did this on Deja Vu at Kilnsey many years ago.
As regards Welsh slate: always the locals of an area are the guardians of an area, acting as custodians for the rest of us. In them we put our trust.
The re-equipping and retrobolting on the slate has been executed by many North Wales locals, after wider discussion, but you will never ever (eat a tomato) get a concensus, at some time you have to act.
If you don't like it: pull the bolts, but I don't think you will. If you do we shall write a news report about it.
This is not a black and white issue by any means and this debate has been ongoing since the early 1980's and will continue to do so.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I'm just bitter because the people who did the FAs of the kind of routes I'm capable of are usually dead or decrepit, and unable to come back and bolt them for me.
> (In reply to hutchm)
> [...]
>
> What current ethic?
>
> I actually believe that the first ascensionist does not have any "rights," well not anymore than anybody else that climbs!
>
I don't believe that either, but it seems that quite a few people think that there is some kind of FA primacy.> [...]
>
> What current ethic?
>
> I actually believe that the first ascensionist does not have any "rights," well not anymore than anybody else that climbs!
>
I'm just bitter because the people who did the FAs of the kind of routes I'm capable of are usually dead or decrepit, and unable to come back and bolt them for me.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I don't fully agree with you here mick, pulling out a bolt if it's what, not in the right place for you, or because you think the climb's been softly bolted? What happens if someone pulls a bolt out they think doesn't need to be there, and then another person decks because the protection has gone?
I try and bolt lines with protection where it's required, so if gear can be placed, then no bolt goes in. but if a climb has rusty pegs and a nice new bolt can be placed then, why not. Shouldn't even need to be open for debate, should just be placed.
I don't fully agree with you here mick, pulling out a bolt if it's what, not in the right place for you, or because you think the climb's been softly bolted? What happens if someone pulls a bolt out they think doesn't need to be there, and then another person decks because the protection has gone?
I try and bolt lines with protection where it's required, so if gear can be placed, then no bolt goes in. but if a climb has rusty pegs and a nice new bolt can be placed then, why not. Shouldn't even need to be open for debate, should just be placed.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I fully agree with you, though there does seem to be a commonly accepted notion that the retro-bolting issue should be settled by asking the first ascensionist. This is what hutchm is referring to. Gary in his OP uses the same argument by mentioning his discussions with Nick Dixon.
I personally find it completely bizarre that people consider it sensible that the future of UK climbs should be decided by people who climbed them 20 years ago. Many of these first ascensionists probably don't even climb anymore.
> (In reply to hutchm)
> [...]
>
> What current ethic?
>
> I actually believe that the first ascensionist does not have any "rights," well not anymore than anybody else that climbs!
>
> [...]
>
> What current ethic?
>
> I actually believe that the first ascensionist does not have any "rights," well not anymore than anybody else that climbs!
>
I fully agree with you, though there does seem to be a commonly accepted notion that the retro-bolting issue should be settled by asking the first ascensionist. This is what hutchm is referring to. Gary in his OP uses the same argument by mentioning his discussions with Nick Dixon.
I personally find it completely bizarre that people consider it sensible that the future of UK climbs should be decided by people who climbed them 20 years ago. Many of these first ascensionists probably don't even climb anymore.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Yes at some point you have to act. I assume though that you're not suggesting that we shouldn't attempt some form of discussion before running around sticking bolts in and whacking them out.
> (In reply to Fiend)
>> If you don't like it: pull the bolts, but I don't think you will. If you do we shall write a news report about it.
>Yes at some point you have to act. I assume though that you're not suggesting that we shouldn't attempt some form of discussion before running around sticking bolts in and whacking them out.
In reply to Gary Gibson: hey gary, at the risk of complicating the debate, why not replace the rotting fixed gear with new, marine grade pegs and solid threads?
this would keep the trad nature of the routes, but increase the likelihood of ascents.
if you do bolt, why not place a bolt where the pegs used to be a la slate quarries?
see you around
this would keep the trad nature of the routes, but increase the likelihood of ascents.
if you do bolt, why not place a bolt where the pegs used to be a la slate quarries?
see you around
In reply to martin k:
This is what i originally thought he meant, place a bolt where a peg used to be, and a new sling where the old one was rotting. Didn't realise he was talking about fully bolting the lines.
This is what i originally thought he meant, place a bolt where a peg used to be, and a new sling where the old one was rotting. Didn't realise he was talking about fully bolting the lines.
In reply to Hugh Cottam:
People usually don't; but there again some do and the discussion can be open like this, or just among locals.
Some may even contact the BMC.
The system, if you can call it such a thing, seems to work.
God forbid that we get to a point where you have to submit a bolting or bolt removal application; although in some places that is where we are at.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
> Yes at some point you have to act. I assume though that you're not suggesting that we shouldn't attempt some form of discussion before running around sticking bolts in and whacking them out.
> [...]
>
> Yes at some point you have to act. I assume though that you're not suggesting that we shouldn't attempt some form of discussion before running around sticking bolts in and whacking them out.
People usually don't; but there again some do and the discussion can be open like this, or just among locals.
Some may even contact the BMC.
The system, if you can call it such a thing, seems to work.
God forbid that we get to a point where you have to submit a bolting or bolt removal application; although in some places that is where we are at.
In reply to Hugh Cottam:
That just gives the action more credibility which you can then pull out if you get challenged.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
> I fully agree with you, though there does seem to be a commonly accepted notion that the retro-bolting issue should be settled by asking the first ascensionist. This is what hutchm is referring to. Gary in his OP uses the same argument by mentioning his discussions with Nick Dixon.
> [...]
>
> I fully agree with you, though there does seem to be a commonly accepted notion that the retro-bolting issue should be settled by asking the first ascensionist. This is what hutchm is referring to. Gary in his OP uses the same argument by mentioning his discussions with Nick Dixon.
That just gives the action more credibility which you can then pull out if you get challenged.
In reply to Gary Gibson:
As a local climber and regular visitor, I would strongly be in favour of maintaining these routes in their original form - but replacing the fixed gear with bolts, and placing lower offs.
If they were poor routes with little quality or character, which nobody would aspire to do, then perhaps retrobolting would be the way forward. But these routes are of an obvious quality and with the fixed gear replaced, would be worthy of many a tick list.
Why not tart them up a bit and see how it goes?
As a local climber and regular visitor, I would strongly be in favour of maintaining these routes in their original form - but replacing the fixed gear with bolts, and placing lower offs.
If they were poor routes with little quality or character, which nobody would aspire to do, then perhaps retrobolting would be the way forward. But these routes are of an obvious quality and with the fixed gear replaced, would be worthy of many a tick list.
Why not tart them up a bit and see how it goes?
In reply to Gary Gibson:
This blog was bought to my attention by Nick Bullock.
The points for and against are all well argued and all I can do is commend the following mantra to everyone "if we are not careful, bolts will ruin climbing."
In the early 1960s I was one of the first to visit this crag with Dave Potts. We advanced halfway up the Black Wall (I think) having found the lower part of the climb a mess of new pegs and karabiners (which we removed) that some obviously unskilled pioneers had left. Later the Black Wall had a series of adequate (but not top drawer) routes added.
On a visit some 30 years later I did a fine VS (not unlike Malbogies) up the isolated buttress in the centre of the high round quarry to the left. This was excellent.
Sport routes are not my speciality but I am worried about bolts spreading (for all the expedient reasons described here) onto climbs that have been done without them. A good example of this (albeit an easy one) is the R/H Route on Castle Inn Quarry which WAS fine route with climbing of similar challange and quality as West Rib on Dinas Mot,on fine rock and with a protection piton at one third height and some small nuts higher up.
It has now been converted into a sport route by Colin Goodey who had(I think) made the first ascent. This is an excellent example of bolts ruining a good route. If that VS on Llanymynech was bolted in the same fashion the result would be just the same. The same would apply if the great trad routes of Chee, High Tor and Stoney (because of lack of traffic) got retrobolted.
The reason for lack of traffic is obvious ... in the 70s and early 80s the large mass of pushy climbers were going up them regularly. Here I am talking about that very able and well trained active mass of climbers who one might refer to as the 2nd tier eagerly trying to repeat the climbs of the bolder first ascentionists.
These days the bulk of this mass of climbers prefer to push their standards on safe sport routes ... and thus the old testpieces get far fewer ascents. Nick Bullock is an outstanding climber who really appreciates the great challenge of trad at its highest levels and its memorability and sense of fullfillment over that offered by sport routes. Thus the idea that good trad routes of that ilk, should be cleaned up and reequipped with like for like gear and left without lower offs (so that the thrills and uncertianties of "descents" can also be experienced) is surely the only tenable approach?
Regarding lower offs ... those added to Castle Inn encourage climbers to avoid belaying at the top (an easy matter). But they also mean that climber who used them
never sees the view which happens to be magnificent from this spot. The view from Llanymynech is similarly fine though admittedly the descents are far more tiresome than those at Castle Inn. This disire to avoid tiresome descents encourages the impression that all sport climbers couldn't give a damn about the view or the contemplative summit sojourn after a long and taxing lead or the challenge of descents and wish instead to avoid such hassles and swoop back myopically to their starts with all tiresome problems removed. I suppose appreciation of the view is not merely the preserve of trad climbers ... though I have never heard that point mentioned by bolt placers or users.
Mayby Gary understands this, hence his query, as he has numbers of fine trad routes to his own name after all.
This blog was bought to my attention by Nick Bullock.
The points for and against are all well argued and all I can do is commend the following mantra to everyone "if we are not careful, bolts will ruin climbing."
In the early 1960s I was one of the first to visit this crag with Dave Potts. We advanced halfway up the Black Wall (I think) having found the lower part of the climb a mess of new pegs and karabiners (which we removed) that some obviously unskilled pioneers had left. Later the Black Wall had a series of adequate (but not top drawer) routes added.
On a visit some 30 years later I did a fine VS (not unlike Malbogies) up the isolated buttress in the centre of the high round quarry to the left. This was excellent.
Sport routes are not my speciality but I am worried about bolts spreading (for all the expedient reasons described here) onto climbs that have been done without them. A good example of this (albeit an easy one) is the R/H Route on Castle Inn Quarry which WAS fine route with climbing of similar challange and quality as West Rib on Dinas Mot,on fine rock and with a protection piton at one third height and some small nuts higher up.
It has now been converted into a sport route by Colin Goodey who had(I think) made the first ascent. This is an excellent example of bolts ruining a good route. If that VS on Llanymynech was bolted in the same fashion the result would be just the same. The same would apply if the great trad routes of Chee, High Tor and Stoney (because of lack of traffic) got retrobolted.
The reason for lack of traffic is obvious ... in the 70s and early 80s the large mass of pushy climbers were going up them regularly. Here I am talking about that very able and well trained active mass of climbers who one might refer to as the 2nd tier eagerly trying to repeat the climbs of the bolder first ascentionists.
These days the bulk of this mass of climbers prefer to push their standards on safe sport routes ... and thus the old testpieces get far fewer ascents. Nick Bullock is an outstanding climber who really appreciates the great challenge of trad at its highest levels and its memorability and sense of fullfillment over that offered by sport routes. Thus the idea that good trad routes of that ilk, should be cleaned up and reequipped with like for like gear and left without lower offs (so that the thrills and uncertianties of "descents" can also be experienced) is surely the only tenable approach?
Regarding lower offs ... those added to Castle Inn encourage climbers to avoid belaying at the top (an easy matter). But they also mean that climber who used them
never sees the view which happens to be magnificent from this spot. The view from Llanymynech is similarly fine though admittedly the descents are far more tiresome than those at Castle Inn. This disire to avoid tiresome descents encourages the impression that all sport climbers couldn't give a damn about the view or the contemplative summit sojourn after a long and taxing lead or the challenge of descents and wish instead to avoid such hassles and swoop back myopically to their starts with all tiresome problems removed. I suppose appreciation of the view is not merely the preserve of trad climbers ... though I have never heard that point mentioned by bolt placers or users.
Mayby Gary understands this, hence his query, as he has numbers of fine trad routes to his own name after all.
And if anyone was asking "Where is Ken Wilson when you need him??"......
In reply to chris fox:
I'm not sure I can agree with this point Chris. Before starting any climb it is surely the climber and only the climber's responsibility to assess protection, the route and everything else before climbing the cliff. Bolts don't remove this personal responsibility.
I have no problem with a mixture of sport and trad climbing being available but, as Ken said, bolts will ruin climbing if allowed to spread unchecked. IMHO reasons such as 'lack of traffic' are no reason to bolt a route - such routes can lie undiscovered for rediscovery when fashions change - as the inevitably will in some way or other.
I would hate to see climbing in this country come to resemble Switzerland where personal responsibility is an anathema and 'safe plaisir' is all that is accepted. This removes the mental/spiritual dimension that makes climbing different to and in my view more fun than many other sporting activities.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> I don't fully agree with you here mick, pulling out a bolt if it's what, not in the right place for you, or because you think the climb's been softly bolted? What happens if someone pulls a bolt out they think doesn't need to be there, and then another person decks because the protection has gone?
>
> I don't fully agree with you here mick, pulling out a bolt if it's what, not in the right place for you, or because you think the climb's been softly bolted? What happens if someone pulls a bolt out they think doesn't need to be there, and then another person decks because the protection has gone?
I'm not sure I can agree with this point Chris. Before starting any climb it is surely the climber and only the climber's responsibility to assess protection, the route and everything else before climbing the cliff. Bolts don't remove this personal responsibility.
I have no problem with a mixture of sport and trad climbing being available but, as Ken said, bolts will ruin climbing if allowed to spread unchecked. IMHO reasons such as 'lack of traffic' are no reason to bolt a route - such routes can lie undiscovered for rediscovery when fashions change - as the inevitably will in some way or other.
I would hate to see climbing in this country come to resemble Switzerland where personal responsibility is an anathema and 'safe plaisir' is all that is accepted. This removes the mental/spiritual dimension that makes climbing different to and in my view more fun than many other sporting activities.
In reply to MattG & others:
Bit off topic but I don't quite understand why some areas are seen as suited to bolting where others aren't. Is the only real difference simply lack of gear? What *is* a good reason to bolt a route if lack of traffic and lack of protection aren't good reasons?
Bit off topic but I don't quite understand why some areas are seen as suited to bolting where others aren't. Is the only real difference simply lack of gear? What *is* a good reason to bolt a route if lack of traffic and lack of protection aren't good reasons?
In reply to Ken Wilson:
Is this obvious - in the 90s many climbers were mixing bolt clipping at Malham with trad climbing on the big routes on limestone, seacliffs and mountains. In fact I would say that its only recently that Malham has returned to the popularity it showed in the early / mid 90s.
Actually it appears to me that the bulk of todays climbers are bouldering or routing / top roping / headpointing on easily accessible grit.
Oh come on - whatever your thoughts on bolts, Malham is one of the great places to climb in the UK and the setting is undoubtably one of the factors in this.
> (In reply to Gary Gibson)
>
> The reason for lack of traffic is obvious ... in the 70s and early 80s the large mass of pushy climbers were going up them regularly.
>
> The reason for lack of traffic is obvious ... in the 70s and early 80s the large mass of pushy climbers were going up them regularly.
Is this obvious - in the 90s many climbers were mixing bolt clipping at Malham with trad climbing on the big routes on limestone, seacliffs and mountains. In fact I would say that its only recently that Malham has returned to the popularity it showed in the early / mid 90s.
>
> These days the bulk of this mass of climbers prefer to push their standards on safe sport routes ... and thus the old testpieces get far fewer ascents.
> These days the bulk of this mass of climbers prefer to push their standards on safe sport routes ... and thus the old testpieces get far fewer ascents.
Actually it appears to me that the bulk of todays climbers are bouldering or routing / top roping / headpointing on easily accessible grit.
>
> I suppose appreciation of the view is not merely the preserve of trad climbers ... though I have never heard that point mentioned by bolt placers or users.
> I suppose appreciation of the view is not merely the preserve of trad climbers ... though I have never heard that point mentioned by bolt placers or users.
Oh come on - whatever your thoughts on bolts, Malham is one of the great places to climb in the UK and the setting is undoubtably one of the factors in this.
In reply to Ken Wilson:
I don't want to see these routes retro-bolted, for the reasons discussed above.
I'd rather hoped that you, with your considerable background in discussing this subject might be able to say something powerful as to why they should not be retro-bolted. You are however waffling off subject on; the early history of the crag, how great Nick Bullock is, lower offs, and what a shame it is if climbers don't get to savour particularly nice views.
I don't want to see these routes retro-bolted, for the reasons discussed above.
I'd rather hoped that you, with your considerable background in discussing this subject might be able to say something powerful as to why they should not be retro-bolted. You are however waffling off subject on; the early history of the crag, how great Nick Bullock is, lower offs, and what a shame it is if climbers don't get to savour particularly nice views.
In reply to thomasadixon:
Speaking completely personally I don't think there is any reason to bolt any route anywhere. However, through discussion in this country we have reached a general consensus about where bolts are not acceptable (natural outcrops except some limestone, mountain and sea cliffs (so portland is.... anyway)) and places where they are (old quarries, some limestone).
Speaking completely personally I don't think there is any reason to bolt any route anywhere. However, through discussion in this country we have reached a general consensus about where bolts are not acceptable (natural outcrops except some limestone, mountain and sea cliffs (so portland is.... anyway)) and places where they are (old quarries, some limestone).
In reply to nbonnett: Ditto
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Also I don't quite agree with your rationale Mick as it would imply that you should have gone through a consultative process over the bolts on Comedy (for example).
I tend to feel I have "stewardship" over routes I create, I tend to look after many of them in terms of keeping an eye on the fixed gear etc and things to do with access or environment if I can. I have also rebolted ones where - because of the technology at the time bolts had been placed in less than adequate places. I have also retro bolted my own routes (an others with permission) where there has been 1 bit of gear in a mostly sport route or the gear was fiddly and needed prior knowledge that I had from climbing and cleaning it and the routes "deserved" more traffic. I guess we don't quite have your strict ethics, population pressures here. John Allen had a big enough influence here when he lived here and his protegies like Dave Fearnley.
Those routes are still there for those that want that style... few though they may be these days.
> (In reply to hutchm)
> [...]
>
>
> I actually believe that the first ascensionist does not have any "rights," well not anymore than anybody else that climbs!
>
>
> It is the climbing community as a whole, made up of individuals, who determine where bolts go.
>
> Or perhaps better it the action of individuals that determine where bolts go and where they don't.
>
One thing I could never quite understand, particularly in the UK, was the removal of bolts by others who could climb harder and deemed them "not necessary". It smattered of egotism/elitism rather than a love of climbing. So if a moderate route was put up by a moderate climber the hard man or woman could come along and eliminate the bolt(s) and thus probably a good portion of the people who might have enjoyed the route.> [...]
>
>
> I actually believe that the first ascensionist does not have any "rights," well not anymore than anybody else that climbs!
>
>
> It is the climbing community as a whole, made up of individuals, who determine where bolts go.
>
> Or perhaps better it the action of individuals that determine where bolts go and where they don't.
>
Also I don't quite agree with your rationale Mick as it would imply that you should have gone through a consultative process over the bolts on Comedy (for example).
I tend to feel I have "stewardship" over routes I create, I tend to look after many of them in terms of keeping an eye on the fixed gear etc and things to do with access or environment if I can. I have also rebolted ones where - because of the technology at the time bolts had been placed in less than adequate places. I have also retro bolted my own routes (an others with permission) where there has been 1 bit of gear in a mostly sport route or the gear was fiddly and needed prior knowledge that I had from climbing and cleaning it and the routes "deserved" more traffic. I guess we don't quite have your strict ethics, population pressures here. John Allen had a big enough influence here when he lived here and his protegies like Dave Fearnley.
Those routes are still there for those that want that style... few though they may be these days.
In reply to Gary Gibson:
No route should ever have fixed pro added to it. Ever. At the very most any pro fixed by the original acensionist should be replaced in the form it was first done. if it rots, replace it or leave it there. where has the element of risk gone nowadays. Bugger making it safer for the majority. And that come from some one who is a right wimp where sparse pro is concerned.
No route should ever have fixed pro added to it. Ever. At the very most any pro fixed by the original acensionist should be replaced in the form it was first done. if it rots, replace it or leave it there. where has the element of risk gone nowadays. Bugger making it safer for the majority. And that come from some one who is a right wimp where sparse pro is concerned.
In reply to Gary Gibson: Well that got things stirring didn't it, which is what I wanted.
I have a few points to make. Firstly I thoroughly dislike the patronising tone Ken Wilson makes towards Nick Bullock or even myself. He may have a point but the way in which he presents it is irritatingly egotistical from his point of view. I have read his notes and always consider them, usually for a few seconds but in this case perhaps not and just a little bit longer.
On Mick Ryan's point about the first ascensionist having the right, I agree, they DO NOT have the right hence my posting the question. Many would say that I have betrayed such a stance over the years but hey, that's life and others have reaped the benefits - Chee Dale, Horseshoe, Smalldale, Blackwell Halt, Llanymynech, Ban-y Gor, Dinas Rock and many more.
In this case it is entirely diffierent as Ed Booth will testify as he was present with my coversation with Nick over the telephone: and I have had this conversation with quite a number of people, friends and foes alike. I have always been very reluctant to make these routes into complete sports routes and it was Nick who persuaded me to think otherwise. That was about 4 months ago and I still feel uncomfortable about it: issues elsewhere have no bearing on me making this decision - slate, Peak crags, Yorkshire crags etc. That is why I posted the question. Now it seems the jury is still out. Sending it to a BMC meeting is also pointless as I don't feel they are well represented either and people will flout agreements, so how do we resolve the issues?
I don't agree that if a route is bolted you can do it trad. nor do I agree that once its done, in this case anyway, you should pull them out. I'll let it simmer a bit longer but even if I decide not to go with the idea of making them into sports routes, I have every intention of replacing the fixed bolts on This Won't Hurt and may well straighten out the Skull (of the screaming variety that is) if nobody beats me to it.
But I feel something needs doing. If I clean them up, they won't get repeated and these are truly awesome routes but on the flip side does, in this case, the end justify the means?
Keep the pot simmering.
I have a few points to make. Firstly I thoroughly dislike the patronising tone Ken Wilson makes towards Nick Bullock or even myself. He may have a point but the way in which he presents it is irritatingly egotistical from his point of view. I have read his notes and always consider them, usually for a few seconds but in this case perhaps not and just a little bit longer.
On Mick Ryan's point about the first ascensionist having the right, I agree, they DO NOT have the right hence my posting the question. Many would say that I have betrayed such a stance over the years but hey, that's life and others have reaped the benefits - Chee Dale, Horseshoe, Smalldale, Blackwell Halt, Llanymynech, Ban-y Gor, Dinas Rock and many more.
In this case it is entirely diffierent as Ed Booth will testify as he was present with my coversation with Nick over the telephone: and I have had this conversation with quite a number of people, friends and foes alike. I have always been very reluctant to make these routes into complete sports routes and it was Nick who persuaded me to think otherwise. That was about 4 months ago and I still feel uncomfortable about it: issues elsewhere have no bearing on me making this decision - slate, Peak crags, Yorkshire crags etc. That is why I posted the question. Now it seems the jury is still out. Sending it to a BMC meeting is also pointless as I don't feel they are well represented either and people will flout agreements, so how do we resolve the issues?
I don't agree that if a route is bolted you can do it trad. nor do I agree that once its done, in this case anyway, you should pull them out. I'll let it simmer a bit longer but even if I decide not to go with the idea of making them into sports routes, I have every intention of replacing the fixed bolts on This Won't Hurt and may well straighten out the Skull (of the screaming variety that is) if nobody beats me to it.
But I feel something needs doing. If I clean them up, they won't get repeated and these are truly awesome routes but on the flip side does, in this case, the end justify the means?
Keep the pot simmering.
In reply to Fiend: At the risk of raking up this old subject, what you say about the N Wales Slate re-bolting campaign is so far wide of the mark it beggars belief.
Every time I've been in the slate quarries of late the newly bolted routes (old and new) have been crawling with happy climbers - the people have voted with their feet. If there really was the ground swell of objection to what has occurred (which is almost entirely positive in my opinion, by the way) then the bolts would have come out long ago.
Where is the anti-bolt consensus that you speak of. It wasn't present at the last BMC meeting I went to in the Vaynol, and it certainly isn't evident at the crag.
Every time I've been in the slate quarries of late the newly bolted routes (old and new) have been crawling with happy climbers - the people have voted with their feet. If there really was the ground swell of objection to what has occurred (which is almost entirely positive in my opinion, by the way) then the bolts would have come out long ago.
Where is the anti-bolt consensus that you speak of. It wasn't present at the last BMC meeting I went to in the Vaynol, and it certainly isn't evident at the crag.
In reply to Gary Gibson:
I'm a neutral in this, and I don't know the venue, but I didn't see anything particularly patronising in Ken's post. In fact I was struck by the atypical absence of venom in what read more like a philosophical musing than his tirades of old. I think he's mellowing.
> I thoroughly dislike the patronising tone Ken Wilson makes towards Nick Bullock or even myself.
I'm a neutral in this, and I don't know the venue, but I didn't see anything particularly patronising in Ken's post. In fact I was struck by the atypical absence of venom in what read more like a philosophical musing than his tirades of old. I think he's mellowing.
In reply to Simon Panton:
With respect the fact that many people go and climb certain bolted slate routes doesn't mean that everyone approves, or even that the majority of climbers approve of all the bolting that went on.
Clearly the sport routes in Dali's Hole which ascend an otherwise very chossy slab are different from retro bolting Horse Latitudes for example.
I've no wish to start an argument but I cannot ever approve of retro bolting an established line. People are asking for opinions and here's mine!
FWIW I think the top bolt on looning the tube should come out as there is a perfectly decent friend/hex placement in the groove that should prevent a ground fall from the crux. As I said, these aren't personal criticisms against individuals but general points.
With respect the fact that many people go and climb certain bolted slate routes doesn't mean that everyone approves, or even that the majority of climbers approve of all the bolting that went on.
Clearly the sport routes in Dali's Hole which ascend an otherwise very chossy slab are different from retro bolting Horse Latitudes for example.
I've no wish to start an argument but I cannot ever approve of retro bolting an established line. People are asking for opinions and here's mine!
FWIW I think the top bolt on looning the tube should come out as there is a perfectly decent friend/hex placement in the groove that should prevent a ground fall from the crux. As I said, these aren't personal criticisms against individuals but general points.
In reply to Gary Gibson:
First off - I've never been to the crag so the following is dispassionate but reasoned. One or two points and one or two questions:
According to the Rockfax guide there are currently 28 bolted and 21 non-bolted routes so I'd say it is most definitely a case where the two styles can co-exist.
These routes look like they date from the time when people were dipping their toes in the fixed protection waters, were the pegs any good to begin with? Would you have placed bolts if you had thought that you wouldn't get slated for it?
In the twenty years or so since these routes were done, how much attention have they seen?
What would provide the best climbing experience? A couple of hard, bold routes that may then get enough ascents to keep them clean or a pair of bolt lines that won't stand out from the crowd.
In effect you have four options:
1. Do nothing - this will probably mean that the routes deteriorate further.
2. Install lower-offs and replace the fixed gear, like for like.
3. Install lower-offs but replace the fixed gear with bolts.
4. Fully retro-bolt the routes.
Personally I'd go for 2, but possibly 3 if a peg/thread placement isn't going to stand up to repeated stress. I believe that we should aim to raise ourselves to the routes rather than bring them down to our level. If I was operating at this level I'd be pretty miffed if I turned up one day to try them to discover they had been retro-bolted.
Currently unbolted limestone isn't popular (a visit to Chee Tor a few weeks ago demonstrated that) but that doesn't mean to say that in the future, climbers won't turn their strength and abilities back to these crags - a few years ago grit wasn't in fashion, now look.
Maybe, just maybe, if I pull my finger out, I'd like to think I could get good enough to attempt routes like this again. I'd just hate to walk round that corner and see an aspiration gone.
boB
First off - I've never been to the crag so the following is dispassionate but reasoned. One or two points and one or two questions:
According to the Rockfax guide there are currently 28 bolted and 21 non-bolted routes so I'd say it is most definitely a case where the two styles can co-exist.
These routes look like they date from the time when people were dipping their toes in the fixed protection waters, were the pegs any good to begin with? Would you have placed bolts if you had thought that you wouldn't get slated for it?
In the twenty years or so since these routes were done, how much attention have they seen?
What would provide the best climbing experience? A couple of hard, bold routes that may then get enough ascents to keep them clean or a pair of bolt lines that won't stand out from the crowd.
In effect you have four options:
1. Do nothing - this will probably mean that the routes deteriorate further.
2. Install lower-offs and replace the fixed gear, like for like.
3. Install lower-offs but replace the fixed gear with bolts.
4. Fully retro-bolt the routes.
Personally I'd go for 2, but possibly 3 if a peg/thread placement isn't going to stand up to repeated stress. I believe that we should aim to raise ourselves to the routes rather than bring them down to our level. If I was operating at this level I'd be pretty miffed if I turned up one day to try them to discover they had been retro-bolted.
Currently unbolted limestone isn't popular (a visit to Chee Tor a few weeks ago demonstrated that) but that doesn't mean to say that in the future, climbers won't turn their strength and abilities back to these crags - a few years ago grit wasn't in fashion, now look.
Maybe, just maybe, if I pull my finger out, I'd like to think I could get good enough to attempt routes like this again. I'd just hate to walk round that corner and see an aspiration gone.
boB
In reply to MattG: What I objected to in Fiend's post was the suggestion that there is some sort of consensus against the bolting work in the slate quarries (I also object to his constant criticism of a series of dedicated locals who have transformed the quarries from a deserted hole in the ground to a thriving climbing venue.). Aside from a handful of individuals who have voiced their disquiet on this forum, I have yet to come across this putative army of Ken Wilson acolytes.
You state that you can't ever agree with retro-bolting. Fair enough, but my view is more pragmatic: usually it is not justified, but occasionally it is. And let's stick to the facts here - there has been very little retro-bolting in the quarries thus far.
Not sure about the top bolt on LTT - I'll talk to Mark and Hosey about it.
Fiend, if you want to rant and rave at me (like you did last time we clashed over this subject), go ahead, but I'm off to Font for the next week so won't get to read it (unless it rains every day and we end up in an internet cafe - which is always a possibilty).
You state that you can't ever agree with retro-bolting. Fair enough, but my view is more pragmatic: usually it is not justified, but occasionally it is. And let's stick to the facts here - there has been very little retro-bolting in the quarries thus far.
Not sure about the top bolt on LTT - I'll talk to Mark and Hosey about it.
Fiend, if you want to rant and rave at me (like you did last time we clashed over this subject), go ahead, but I'm off to Font for the next week so won't get to read it (unless it rains every day and we end up in an internet cafe - which is always a possibilty).
In reply to Jamie B.: I'm also pretty neutral over this (I was climbing trad routes and sports routes which are next door to each other yesterday, as is the local ethic here) but Ken's post was his normal lengthy ramblings on how basically sport climbers don't appreciate the environment in the same way. Saying sport climbers don't enjoy the views, is a) empirically rather silly, and b) snobby - saying they don't climb for the same soulful reasons that us trad climbers do.
In reply to Gary Gibson: As a slight thread hijack, were were there last week and got our car broken into. Suggest you park in the village and walk up the lane to the crag.
In reply to tim evans: Where do you live then? Nick and myself live within 15 mins walk from the crag.
In reply to Chris Harris: Many cars get broken into in the carpark. A safer bet is to park at the top of the quarry, near the golf course, the pub car park, or in Briggs lane.
Hi Gary, I would be in favour of bolting these routes. After all, the routes on the upper Nomad Wall utilise in-situ protection anyway, for example This Won’t Hurt has three old BR’s and PR and could be described as a poorly bolted sports route! The lower section of the Nomad wall has four sports routes that finish at the belay ledge of the upper wall. In total I reckon there must be around 18 bolts already in the Nomad wall, this hardly makes it a bastion of great British traditional climbing! How does this stack up with regard to the routes on Black wall? These routes are clearly traditional; there is only one bolt on the entire wall protecting the crux of Black is Beautiful which, from memory, is bold to get to then bold above the bolt. The Black wall is clearly a great trad climbing feature that fits complementary to the neighbouring sports routes on both the Red and Grid Iron Walls. It is clearly different for the Nomad Wall which has a bolted lower half and semi-bolted/peg and tat protected upper half.
By the way I did your new super long route in the quarry today – thought the crux was clipping the last runner with 50m of rope out, anyway it brought a smile to my face.
Lee
By the way I did your new super long route in the quarry today – thought the crux was clipping the last runner with 50m of rope out, anyway it brought a smile to my face.
Lee
In reply to Gary Gibson:
Hi Gary,
I've climbed a lot at llanymynech this year (both trad and sport) and thoroughly enjoyed it. I would suggest replacing current in-situ ironwork with bolts, rather than retrobolting them.
All the best.
Graham
Hi Gary,
I've climbed a lot at llanymynech this year (both trad and sport) and thoroughly enjoyed it. I would suggest replacing current in-situ ironwork with bolts, rather than retrobolting them.
All the best.
Graham
In reply to Gary Gibson:
so if it had a 6mm split pin rivet you would replace it with that?
Sorry if I was a bit obtuse. (or is it the poster of the original, not GG)I repeat YES and why the hell not. If the first ascensionist could do it with that so should every on else. Stuff making something safe just to suit every one else. Go and climb sme where else if you can't hack it. Maybe indoors. If you can't attempt a route with confidence that you can do it you should grow up and go away until you can. Pro is for the unforseen not the sad and pathetic crutch that so amny modern climbers seem to need.
so if it had a 6mm split pin rivet you would replace it with that?
Sorry if I was a bit obtuse. (or is it the poster of the original, not GG)I repeat YES and why the hell not. If the first ascensionist could do it with that so should every on else. Stuff making something safe just to suit every one else. Go and climb sme where else if you can't hack it. Maybe indoors. If you can't attempt a route with confidence that you can do it you should grow up and go away until you can. Pro is for the unforseen not the sad and pathetic crutch that so amny modern climbers seem to need.
In reply to Gary Gibson: Big respect for putting it to the RT masses, but consensus is highly unlikely. My take would be that rather than merely altering an existing route it creates a new one as there is such a difference between a trad and a bolted route.
I have to admit that when I saw the bolts you put on your routes in Trevor quarry I was a bit dissapointed as I had been thinking about them as future ticks but they don't have the same appeal now.
I am not critisizing, just giving my view.
Good luck with a difficult decision, and remember that whatever decision you make there will be many who disagree.
I have to admit that when I saw the bolts you put on your routes in Trevor quarry I was a bit dissapointed as I had been thinking about them as future ticks but they don't have the same appeal now.
I am not critisizing, just giving my view.
Good luck with a difficult decision, and remember that whatever decision you make there will be many who disagree.
In reply to mattsccm:
Maybe I have grown up and seen the folly?
To much of this fixed gear was placed because that was all there was, technology was primitive and people had really, really tight pockets - eg: At Arapiles Mark Moorhead and others would do a route with fixed wires then remove the good ones and replace with old frayed worn ones that they had found as booty from around the cliff.
Maybe I have grown up and seen the folly?
To much of this fixed gear was placed because that was all there was, technology was primitive and people had really, really tight pockets - eg: At Arapiles Mark Moorhead and others would do a route with fixed wires then remove the good ones and replace with old frayed worn ones that they had found as booty from around the cliff.
In reply to Gary Gibson: I was split descisioned before this but now i don't think they should be bolted. Maybe they just need a good clean. If at all possible maybe replace pegs with pegs but certainly not bolts, thats a crap idea. bolts are obviously better, especially if you ntake a look at the pegs uip there.
Somebody made a comment that the first ascensionist could do it like that, it has been about 25yrs and all the fixed gear has seen better times. It is certainly one of the best walls at lanymynech for atmosphere. It is an elite wall, and so it should remain in the same way there are easy bolted walls. It sounds as though they have been getting bits of attention, so keep them there for the future generations to get psyched and inspired, just like i did before i fluffed my ascents.
Ed
Somebody made a comment that the first ascensionist could do it like that, it has been about 25yrs and all the fixed gear has seen better times. It is certainly one of the best walls at lanymynech for atmosphere. It is an elite wall, and so it should remain in the same way there are easy bolted walls. It sounds as though they have been getting bits of attention, so keep them there for the future generations to get psyched and inspired, just like i did before i fluffed my ascents.
Ed
Restoring these potentially great routes has my vote.
Give Gary your support and he will just get on with it.
Are the Nomad wall routes really Trad routes anyway?
Excluding the belay debate. A climb that has no fixed gear and requires all gear to be removed by the second and hand placed by the leader is proper trad route, if it has some permanent fixed gear such as pegs/ threads etc, then the definition is less clear cut. If the route has all permanent fixed gear, then this can be generally considered a sports route. Considering the large amount of fixed pro already on the Nomad wall (including novelty protection in the form of nails, it’s amazing how long a six inch nail can last before it rusts away though) this makes them just about sport routes already. The odd nut or dodgy friend in the flakey breaks hardly makes it in to the definition of a proper trad route!
Do many people want them bolted?
It takes a great deal of time, effort and money to bolt routes. The nomad wall issue has been discussed for some time now. None of the climbers I have spoken to have objected to this proposal. Judging by the number of people that read this post there is also a silent majority out there, I would guess most of them would give support if asked directly.
Do people aspire to do these routes.
Judging by the very low number of ascents in the last few years, only the very dedicated are able to experience these amazing routes. Quite surprising really, they are theoretically 3 star routes when clean. But I suppose the 15 minute walk to the top of the crag and abseil down first to clean puts many off (or just maybe it is something else!). An added bonus though is that you can often climb here in a T-shirt in January, maybe people now might actually go to Llanymynech and do the routes. But somehow unless they become proper sport routes I don’t think so. In reality, over the past few years they have remained nothing more than a desire.
Will Black Wall be the only trad area left?
Black wall offers the most natural gear placements in the quarry (in the central section). Just because most trad ascents are on this wall, this does not mean this is the only trad area. There many other trad climbs across the quarry not in the Rockfax guide, but many of these too are sadly neglected.
In reply to adam11:
I live in Nant-y-caws just outside morda. Give me a bell if u fancy a climb.
tim.evans@mouchelparkman.com
Are u adam brown by any chance??
Tim
I live in Nant-y-caws just outside morda. Give me a bell if u fancy a climb.
tim.evans@mouchelparkman.com
Are u adam brown by any chance??
Tim
In reply to xyz:
Me and ed were certainly glad of the bolt on black is beautiful when we had a crack at it in the summer. Ed took several falls onto it before traversing over to black wall, i was surprised to second it clean. Unfortunately couldnt repeat this when i had a crack at leading it - the moves are desperate as your guide suggests.
I hope this wall can remain as the execllent trad venue that it is.
Me and ed were certainly glad of the bolt on black is beautiful when we had a crack at it in the summer. Ed took several falls onto it before traversing over to black wall, i was surprised to second it clean. Unfortunately couldnt repeat this when i had a crack at leading it - the moves are desperate as your guide suggests.
I hope this wall can remain as the execllent trad venue that it is.
In reply to MattG: to you and Fiend: i havent done many of the re/retro bolted routes but my impression is that hardly any bolts were added (most routes just received fresh bolts in the same place) and where this did happen it was done with consideration and respect for the routes.
for what its worth i wouldnt have touched Horse Latitudes in its previous format - im happy (where it makes sense) to run my climbing out but a mistake on Horse Latitudes would have had serious consequences and youre not really climbing on buckets. as it now stands i think its a great route and still in keeping with the feel of the place. i dont accept the argument that something should be bolted to make it popular but in the case of slate, given the very varied style of protection, certain routes warranted attention.
please give an example of where a classic has been ruined?
for what its worth i wouldnt have touched Horse Latitudes in its previous format - im happy (where it makes sense) to run my climbing out but a mistake on Horse Latitudes would have had serious consequences and youre not really climbing on buckets. as it now stands i think its a great route and still in keeping with the feel of the place. i dont accept the argument that something should be bolted to make it popular but in the case of slate, given the very varied style of protection, certain routes warranted attention.
please give an example of where a classic has been ruined?
In reply to Gary Gibson: hello again gary,
you could always suggest a day's climbing at the quarry for all interested parties, get a load of routes done, look at the routes in question, then have a few pints and a punch up in a nearby pub afterwards to settle the issue. there are potentially too many lurkers on here!
cheerio!
you could always suggest a day's climbing at the quarry for all interested parties, get a load of routes done, look at the routes in question, then have a few pints and a punch up in a nearby pub afterwards to settle the issue. there are potentially too many lurkers on here!
cheerio!
In reply to Nick Bullocknick bullock:
An interesting thread. Nice one Gary for choosing to canvas opinion on matter close to trad climbers hearts. This is certainly the way forward in the retrobolting/replace gear debate....
Its interesting to see SOME of the comments from the older climbers who contributed. Some being quite selfish and shortsighted.......having lost interest in adventure style climbing and prefering clip up's for an easier life. Keep the faith, don't forget what attracted you to climbing all those years ago.
Nick sums up that feeling perfectly.....
I look forward to these routes having their in situ pro' replaced to the standard it was on the first ascent.......
> (In reply to Nick BullockGary Gibson)
An interesting thread. Nice one Gary for choosing to canvas opinion on matter close to trad climbers hearts. This is certainly the way forward in the retrobolting/replace gear debate....
Its interesting to see SOME of the comments from the older climbers who contributed. Some being quite selfish and shortsighted.......having lost interest in adventure style climbing and prefering clip up's for an easier life. Keep the faith, don't forget what attracted you to climbing all those years ago.
Nick sums up that feeling perfectly.....
>
> To this day i still remember setting off from the ledge on Nomad, pulling from break to break,cleaning mud from my hands, hanging in, placing gear,chalking up, reversing,wiping feet, working out the moves, looking for the next gear placement...and then finally, when you think its over the crux...
>
I haven't done the routes in question....but would love to in a re-juvenated trad state. They sound tremendous 3 star classics....what are folk thinking in retrobolting!!!> To this day i still remember setting off from the ledge on Nomad, pulling from break to break,cleaning mud from my hands, hanging in, placing gear,chalking up, reversing,wiping feet, working out the moves, looking for the next gear placement...and then finally, when you think its over the crux...
>
I look forward to these routes having their in situ pro' replaced to the standard it was on the first ascent.......
In reply to Gary Gibson: I think they should not be retrobolted, but should have current gear replaced. I haven't been to Llanymynech quarry yet, so can't really argue for the particular routes but I've got some questions for the various people who made the following points:
For those who say that they should be fully bolted to make them safer: You could use this argument on all trad routes, trad is more dangerous than sport climbing and should be that way, thats what it is and is part of it.
Are there not already plenty of good sports routes in Clywd? Dinbren, Trevor etc.. have brilliant routes that are bolted, and especially Trevor, routes that have been retrobolted, (the East Quarry Face).
For those who talk of aspiring climbers of the future: I think this is true. I haven't been climbing long but already aspire to climb the routes on Black Wall especially, and various others in the quarry, including the routes being discussed.
If these were bolted, I think you are taking something away from the routes, even if they are dirty.
Mud can be cleaned off routes, whereas bolts can't so easily.
For those who say that they should be fully bolted to make them safer: You could use this argument on all trad routes, trad is more dangerous than sport climbing and should be that way, thats what it is and is part of it.
Are there not already plenty of good sports routes in Clywd? Dinbren, Trevor etc.. have brilliant routes that are bolted, and especially Trevor, routes that have been retrobolted, (the East Quarry Face).
For those who talk of aspiring climbers of the future: I think this is true. I haven't been climbing long but already aspire to climb the routes on Black Wall especially, and various others in the quarry, including the routes being discussed.
If these were bolted, I think you are taking something away from the routes, even if they are dirty.
Mud can be cleaned off routes, whereas bolts can't so easily.
In reply to Simon Panton:
I'm not going to argue about the bolting, for now.
However neither am I going to accept the accusation of ranting and raving when it was YOU who was personally insulting and dismissive to the people querying the bolts, NOT the other way around. At some point I will dig out the thread and prove this.
> Fiend, if you want to rant and rave at me (like you did last time we clashed over this subject), go ahead, but I'm off to Font for the next week so won't get to read it (unless it rains every day and we end up in an internet cafe - which is always a possibilty).
I'm not going to argue about the bolting, for now.
However neither am I going to accept the accusation of ranting and raving when it was YOU who was personally insulting and dismissive to the people querying the bolts, NOT the other way around. At some point I will dig out the thread and prove this.
In reply to richard kirby:
The question to me is whether these are classic trad routes (one view stated) or near sport routes which would be better if properly bolted (another view stated). As I said I've only climbed on the 2 big sport walls - if the climbing is similar to that then I would definitely support bolting them, if its true that it is a quality trad wall to match the likes of High Tor or Central Wall at Blue Scar then I could probably be persuaded otherwise.
Anyway you're just sore because you can't find anyone to go Gogarth with you
> (In reply to nick bullock)
>>
> Its interesting to see SOME of the comments from the older climbers who contributed. Some being quite selfish and shortsighted.......having lost interest in adventure style climbing and prefering clip up's for an easier life. Keep the faith, don't forget what attracted you to climbing all those years ago.
>
Hi Rich, obviously a little bit of winding up going on here (who are you calling old!!) ... but I don't think you can get away with selfish. If you accept that this is place for fully bolted sport routes in the UK (was that you I saw a Malham?) then why is wanting a limestone route in quarry like LLanymanech to be bolted anymore selfish that wanting it to stay trad - as I said its not like there's a shortage a classic trad limestone wall routes getting polished with overclimbing.> Its interesting to see SOME of the comments from the older climbers who contributed. Some being quite selfish and shortsighted.......having lost interest in adventure style climbing and prefering clip up's for an easier life. Keep the faith, don't forget what attracted you to climbing all those years ago.
>
The question to me is whether these are classic trad routes (one view stated) or near sport routes which would be better if properly bolted (another view stated). As I said I've only climbed on the 2 big sport walls - if the climbing is similar to that then I would definitely support bolting them, if its true that it is a quality trad wall to match the likes of High Tor or Central Wall at Blue Scar then I could probably be persuaded otherwise.
Anyway you're just sore because you can't find anyone to go Gogarth with you
> The question to me is whether these are classic trad routes (one view stated) or near sport routes which would be better if properly bolted (another view stated).
Hi Ian,
As I have already stated on this thread; the climbing on this wall can hardly be described as classic trad. the bottom half of the wall contains four fully bolted sports routes and the four lines being discussed on the upper wall all rely on in-situ protection including bolts.
Lee
In reply to xyz:
have you led the routes in question, O/S........or TR'd. My point is I don't think you can really comment on whether they are classic trad unless there has been an O/S lead. I'm sure you agree, the trad lines on the Black Wall are classic....for the area. You did give them trad grades in your guide and 3 stars.....that says to me it is a classic.....certainly in the area.
Nick's post on when he led one of them last summer is one of fiddling gear in and an overall classic trad feel. Perhaps this was gear to back up decaying in-situ?
I don't see what relevance the fully bolted sport routes on the same wall, have on whether these trad routes should be re-equiped as sport? This situation exists at other crags....notably, Dinbren....Traction Trauma + others. I'm sure this example is at Mr Mouldings insistence, however...it works fine.
There are other examples of classic trad with in-situ pro.....Bastille. I don't think anyone (well maybe some) would like to see the exciting traddy lower section of Bastille be bolted?
Rich
> [...]
>
>
> As I have already stated on this thread; the climbing on this wall can hardly be described as classic trad. the bottom half of the wall contains four fully bolted sports routes and the four lines being discussed on the upper wall all rely on in-situ protection including bolts.
>
Hi Lee>
>
> As I have already stated on this thread; the climbing on this wall can hardly be described as classic trad. the bottom half of the wall contains four fully bolted sports routes and the four lines being discussed on the upper wall all rely on in-situ protection including bolts.
>
have you led the routes in question, O/S........or TR'd. My point is I don't think you can really comment on whether they are classic trad unless there has been an O/S lead. I'm sure you agree, the trad lines on the Black Wall are classic....for the area. You did give them trad grades in your guide and 3 stars.....that says to me it is a classic.....certainly in the area.
Nick's post on when he led one of them last summer is one of fiddling gear in and an overall classic trad feel. Perhaps this was gear to back up decaying in-situ?
I don't see what relevance the fully bolted sport routes on the same wall, have on whether these trad routes should be re-equiped as sport? This situation exists at other crags....notably, Dinbren....Traction Trauma + others. I'm sure this example is at Mr Mouldings insistence, however...it works fine.
There are other examples of classic trad with in-situ pro.....Bastille. I don't think anyone (well maybe some) would like to see the exciting traddy lower section of Bastille be bolted?
Rich
In reply to Nick BullockLee Proctor
..........says it all really.
> (In reply to Nick BullockGary Gibson)
>
> I climbed Nomad last year
>
> it was as good as any on Dinas Cromlech and what does it matter if it is in an old quarry.
>
> Some of the more difficult routes on the mountain crags in Britain are dirty and will always be dirty. I dont see this as a reason to bolt them so they get more traffic.
>
>
> I climbed Nomad last year
>
> it was as good as any on Dinas Cromlech and what does it matter if it is in an old quarry.
>
> Some of the more difficult routes on the mountain crags in Britain are dirty and will always be dirty. I dont see this as a reason to bolt them so they get more traffic.
>
..........says it all really.
In reply to richard kirby:
Possibly but there does seem to be a different point of view from Gary, Nick Dixon and Lee so I'm not sure that just dismissing that moves anything forwards.
Interesting running a rockfax search on Clywd limestone finds 33 2/3* E5/E6 and 18 2/3* 6c+ to 7b so the argument that all the trad routes are being bolted doesn't hold weight.
> In reply to Lee Proctor
> [...]
>
> ..........says it all really.
> [...]
>
> ..........says it all really.
Possibly but there does seem to be a different point of view from Gary, Nick Dixon and Lee so I'm not sure that just dismissing that moves anything forwards.
Interesting running a rockfax search on Clywd limestone finds 33 2/3* E5/E6 and 18 2/3* 6c+ to 7b so the argument that all the trad routes are being bolted doesn't hold weight.
In reply to richard kirby:
Fair point Rich, I haven't done any of the routes on Nomad wall and maybe because of this one could argue I have no right to make suggestions regarding their fate. Taking this one step further you could argue the only people who do have a right to reply to Gary's original thread are individuals who have actually taken up the challenge of leading these routes!
I was simply making the observation that the Nomad wall is about 150ft high with a ledge running across the wall at one third height. There are four fully bolted sports routes leading up to the ledge and four semi-bolted/peg/tat protected trad routes above the ledge. To me it seems logical to bolt the whole wall and make it a superb sport climbing feature. Conversely you could remove all the bolts old pegs and tat and make it a superb trad climbing feature. Its the halfway house between these two alternatives with one half fully bolted and the other semi bolted that seems a little bit weird!
> (In reply to Lee Proctor)
> [...]
> Hi Lee
>
> have you led the routes in question, O/S........or TR'd. My point is I don't think you can really comment on whether they are classic trad unless there has been an O/S lead.
> [...]
> Hi Lee
>
> have you led the routes in question, O/S........or TR'd. My point is I don't think you can really comment on whether they are classic trad unless there has been an O/S lead.
Fair point Rich, I haven't done any of the routes on Nomad wall and maybe because of this one could argue I have no right to make suggestions regarding their fate. Taking this one step further you could argue the only people who do have a right to reply to Gary's original thread are individuals who have actually taken up the challenge of leading these routes!
I was simply making the observation that the Nomad wall is about 150ft high with a ledge running across the wall at one third height. There are four fully bolted sports routes leading up to the ledge and four semi-bolted/peg/tat protected trad routes above the ledge. To me it seems logical to bolt the whole wall and make it a superb sport climbing feature. Conversely you could remove all the bolts old pegs and tat and make it a superb trad climbing feature. Its the halfway house between these two alternatives with one half fully bolted and the other semi bolted that seems a little bit weird!
In reply to Gary Gibson: I've done TWH and Nomad in the last year or so, and I can"t believe anybody is having this conversation at all. They are totally brill routes as they are, and don't feel outrageous in their present state. Nomad could be a cool first E6 for anyone used to the quarry. What is it with everyone that wants to turn ace routes into forgetable clip ups? Do you want to turn the "Nomad Wall" into "that wall with some more long dusty sport routes"? I hope not, and as some replies have sugested there are lots of climbers who have enjoyed the variety of climbing at Llanymynech, and aspire to do these 3 routes, or are chuffed at having done them ( the best pitches in the quarry ). Don't take this away, everyone that clips the bolts will wish they'd got stuck in with a rack. Cheers, Tim
In reply to xyz:
But isn't one of the major planks of the proponents of bolting in trad areas that the two styles of climbing can happily co-exist? If that isn't the case then the implication of 'allowing' bolts near trad routes are that the trad routes will get bolted in the end as you seem to be arguing. That means that everything that Ken said was true...........
But isn't one of the major planks of the proponents of bolting in trad areas that the two styles of climbing can happily co-exist? If that isn't the case then the implication of 'allowing' bolts near trad routes are that the trad routes will get bolted in the end as you seem to be arguing. That means that everything that Ken said was true...........
In reply to Andy Say:
It's the thin end of the wedge!!
Actually, the wedge does seem to get firmly driven into limestone quarries. It's a good thing people are prepared to argue firmly against it.
It's the thin end of the wedge!!
Actually, the wedge does seem to get firmly driven into limestone quarries. It's a good thing people are prepared to argue firmly against it.
Climbers who visit Llanymynech are almost exclusively sports climbers. So it is not surprising there is an overwhelming support by those that use the quarry to improve fixed gear. Dismissing routes as ‘just sport’ does nothing to help here. This is not grit, it is not the mountains but a massive man made disused quarry. With the exception of the E1/E2’s on black wall, which are the only regularly climbed trad routes here, the other so called trad routes are generally protected by much permanent (ish) fixed gear. Is there really a big difference between clipping a peg, a bolt or piece of tat. Perhaps the nature of the excitement on these routes is down to the questionable nature of the protection placed by someone other than the leader or due to their age or state. Of coursed bolts are less questionable, or maybe not, the bolts are old and only 8mm on nomad wall, but if you one of the few E6 leaders that venture here, I suppose it is not a problem!
I agree that classic trad routes can be memorable, and I enjoy them too. Sport climbs can also be good, particularly on climbs that are hard and near your limit. Although I find trad climbs to be more memorable as a whole, I find the moves on sports climbs to be much more engrossing than on trad. They can usually be also climbed in better style. The views of people on UKC may influence the final decision, but I do not see how they can be really be representative of the climbing community at this venue. Most people just get on with it, don’t comment on UKC and enjoy the superb sport climbing that has been created here.
That leads me on to a Red Wall topic, I remember looking at Red wall here about 15 years ago and being blown way by the thought of trad routes venturing up this face, I dismissed it completely for 12 years. Now look at it, nearly every route is sport route with a least one star and is regularly climbed in Summer and Winter . Long John Codlin’s groove at F7a is a bit of a misnomer though, is this really a trad climb in disguise?
I agree that classic trad routes can be memorable, and I enjoy them too. Sport climbs can also be good, particularly on climbs that are hard and near your limit. Although I find trad climbs to be more memorable as a whole, I find the moves on sports climbs to be much more engrossing than on trad. They can usually be also climbed in better style. The views of people on UKC may influence the final decision, but I do not see how they can be really be representative of the climbing community at this venue. Most people just get on with it, don’t comment on UKC and enjoy the superb sport climbing that has been created here.
That leads me on to a Red Wall topic, I remember looking at Red wall here about 15 years ago and being blown way by the thought of trad routes venturing up this face, I dismissed it completely for 12 years. Now look at it, nearly every route is sport route with a least one star and is regularly climbed in Summer and Winter . Long John Codlin’s groove at F7a is a bit of a misnomer though, is this really a trad climb in disguise?
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