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I went to Gogarth yesterday, been putting it off for three years for various reasons, one of which being I'd been told you have to be climbing HVS to really appreciate the place, and due to miscellaneous set backs that solid at 'HVS has not yet occurred' despite attempting my first one in August 2005. So finally made it there yesterday, to Wen Zawn, and was amazed at how amenable the place is. I love sea cliffs, and have been to my fair share (Swanage, Portland, Cornwal granite, Devon Sandstone, Gower, South Pembroke, North Pembroke), and thought that compared to some, it was rather un-scary. The approach was on a good path path, the scramble down to the ab point had plenty of rocks to hold on to, the abseil was fine, there's a big ledge to stand on to belay, I could see and hear my partner the whole way, there's jugs everywhere and the gear, although a little unusual, seems fairly abundant (at least on our route).
I see how it could be quite terrifying if the sea was up, and you have to know how to do hanging belays, and it anything went wrong it might be quite tricky to get back to your ab rope. But that's par for the course for a sea cliff, and as long at the guide book makes that clear, I'm not sure how much extra leway should be built into the grades. Compare that to Boulder Ruckle, which sure you can hop across the boulders at the bottom, but you have to find your ab point by using directions such as 'past the third wall behind a bush there's a hidden stake', and just hope that you ab down in the right place, but there the VS's are *real* VS's. I failed on one due to lack of strength, and my partner even accidentally removed part of it - http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=34302. At Wen Zawn you can stand on the promontary and see the entire route, to check out where you're going before you ab down.
Yesterday we did Wen itself (going by the select guide, we missed out the first pitch, I led the middle pitch and my partner led the last), and I found the climbing more like HS 4b (sustained 4a, with a 4b crux). Add in the exposure and the situation, and I can see how to give it VS would be perfectly fine. HVS though? I considered that it might have been graded so that if you're happy leading the grades given, you'd have no trouble at all on the routes, but that doesn't seem to be consistent with the way the other sea cliffs are graded (except perhaps North Pembroke where most stuff also seems soft touch), and if all routes are graded so that you'll easily get up them, when will you ever experience the Gogarth 'grip'?
As I say actually missed out the first pitch, so if this is a real epic pitch then I take back my comments, but since the guide book says the first pitches are normally missed out I can't see that that would be the case.
I'm not trying to push my views on people, as I've only done the one route, and I might have been over prepared mentally, and I'd hate for anyone to go there thinking 'cider nut said it was okay' and get into trouble, but I would be interested in other people's thoughts on this.
I also accept that, as well as being mentally over prepared, we went on a very calm day with a low tide at 12:23, but once again it's not hard to stand on the promontary and check out if there's waves crashing onto the slab and check the tide times in advance. (I'll also add one more proviso that I'm pretty sure I'd be terrified on Dream, but I go to pieces on traverses anyway).
I'm just interested in a discussion on how the routes are graded (i.e. why they're given the grade they are), rather than criticising them. We might just have had a good day, and they could be graded for the average experience. But if you're happy on sea cliffs (so not affected by the exposure, especially if it's a calm day with an inquisitive seal, as it was) and want to go and push yourself on an HVS, and you go to Gogarth (as I did), I reckon you'll end up finding the climbing easy, which is quite surreal given all the hype!
All thoughts welcome
I see how it could be quite terrifying if the sea was up, and you have to know how to do hanging belays, and it anything went wrong it might be quite tricky to get back to your ab rope. But that's par for the course for a sea cliff, and as long at the guide book makes that clear, I'm not sure how much extra leway should be built into the grades. Compare that to Boulder Ruckle, which sure you can hop across the boulders at the bottom, but you have to find your ab point by using directions such as 'past the third wall behind a bush there's a hidden stake', and just hope that you ab down in the right place, but there the VS's are *real* VS's. I failed on one due to lack of strength, and my partner even accidentally removed part of it - http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=34302. At Wen Zawn you can stand on the promontary and see the entire route, to check out where you're going before you ab down.
Yesterday we did Wen itself (going by the select guide, we missed out the first pitch, I led the middle pitch and my partner led the last), and I found the climbing more like HS 4b (sustained 4a, with a 4b crux). Add in the exposure and the situation, and I can see how to give it VS would be perfectly fine. HVS though? I considered that it might have been graded so that if you're happy leading the grades given, you'd have no trouble at all on the routes, but that doesn't seem to be consistent with the way the other sea cliffs are graded (except perhaps North Pembroke where most stuff also seems soft touch), and if all routes are graded so that you'll easily get up them, when will you ever experience the Gogarth 'grip'?
As I say actually missed out the first pitch, so if this is a real epic pitch then I take back my comments, but since the guide book says the first pitches are normally missed out I can't see that that would be the case.
I'm not trying to push my views on people, as I've only done the one route, and I might have been over prepared mentally, and I'd hate for anyone to go there thinking 'cider nut said it was okay' and get into trouble, but I would be interested in other people's thoughts on this.
I also accept that, as well as being mentally over prepared, we went on a very calm day with a low tide at 12:23, but once again it's not hard to stand on the promontary and check out if there's waves crashing onto the slab and check the tide times in advance. (I'll also add one more proviso that I'm pretty sure I'd be terrified on Dream, but I go to pieces on traverses anyway).
I'm just interested in a discussion on how the routes are graded (i.e. why they're given the grade they are), rather than criticising them. We might just have had a good day, and they could be graded for the average experience. But if you're happy on sea cliffs (so not affected by the exposure, especially if it's a calm day with an inquisitive seal, as it was) and want to go and push yourself on an HVS, and you go to Gogarth (as I did), I reckon you'll end up finding the climbing easy, which is quite surreal given all the hype!
All thoughts welcome
In reply to cider nut:
Can't quite seehow you can think it was HS though.
The bottom pitches at Wen Slab are normally brilliant.
Concreate Chimney is stunning.
>
> Yesterday we did Wen itself (going by the select guide, we missed out the first pitch, I led the middle pitch and my partner led the last), and I found the climbing more like HS 4b (sustained 4a, with a 4b crux). Add in the exposure and the situation, and I can see how to give it VS would be perfectly fine. HVS though? I considered that it might have been graded so that if you're happy leading the grades given, you'd have no trouble at all on the routes, but that doesn't seem to be consistent with the way the other sea cliffs are graded (except perhaps North Pembroke where most stuff also seems soft touch), and if all routes are graded so that you'll easily get up them, when will you ever experience the Gogarth 'grip'?
>
I got gripped silly on Wen and deffinatley though the middle pitch was 4c. I had tolower off and had a mini epic. The bottom pitch is desperate HVS 5a, but superb. top 5a pitch was good.> Yesterday we did Wen itself (going by the select guide, we missed out the first pitch, I led the middle pitch and my partner led the last), and I found the climbing more like HS 4b (sustained 4a, with a 4b crux). Add in the exposure and the situation, and I can see how to give it VS would be perfectly fine. HVS though? I considered that it might have been graded so that if you're happy leading the grades given, you'd have no trouble at all on the routes, but that doesn't seem to be consistent with the way the other sea cliffs are graded (except perhaps North Pembroke where most stuff also seems soft touch), and if all routes are graded so that you'll easily get up them, when will you ever experience the Gogarth 'grip'?
>
Can't quite seehow you can think it was HS though.
The bottom pitches at Wen Slab are normally brilliant.
Concreate Chimney is stunning.
In reply to cider nut:
Jeez.....first time at Gogarth and we get a grade debate.
Cider Nut.....grades are rough guides to a routes difficuty and vary from place to place for several reasons.
That's my thought. Sounds a great day out climbing.
Jeez.....first time at Gogarth and we get a grade debate.
Cider Nut.....grades are rough guides to a routes difficuty and vary from place to place for several reasons.
That's my thought. Sounds a great day out climbing.
In reply to cider nut: A lot of questions in there.
As far as Gogarth goes, I think that when people talk about the 'Gogarth grip' they're usually talking about either the main cliff routes which are mainly big uncompromising multi pitch routes with enormous exposure or the looser routes at places like Red Wall. Wen Zawn is pretty friendly compared with either of those locations.
As for Swanage, the grades there are notoriously stiff - Swanage HVS is generally equivalent to Pembroke E1.
Grades do differ from crag to crag, and the best idea is to start on a relatively easy route in a new location and not push yourself too much until you've formed an opinion as to how you find the grades there.
As far as Gogarth goes, I think that when people talk about the 'Gogarth grip' they're usually talking about either the main cliff routes which are mainly big uncompromising multi pitch routes with enormous exposure or the looser routes at places like Red Wall. Wen Zawn is pretty friendly compared with either of those locations.
As for Swanage, the grades there are notoriously stiff - Swanage HVS is generally equivalent to Pembroke E1.
Grades do differ from crag to crag, and the best idea is to start on a relatively easy route in a new location and not push yourself too much until you've formed an opinion as to how you find the grades there.
In reply to cider nut: I don't think you can judge the grades of an entire area based on one route, done on a day with good conditions.
In reply to cider nut:
If you did Wen or DOWH you probably picked two of the most solid and amenable HVS at Gogarth. They aren't all like that.
If you did Wen or DOWH you probably picked two of the most solid and amenable HVS at Gogarth. They aren't all like that.
In reply to cider nut:
Several things. The descent when birds are still nesting can be seriously scary, they dive bomb you and at least one person has nearly lost an eye to them.
You were probably hyped up for a hard route, and it was not as hard as you thought it would be, I thought it was between VS and HVS. The climbing is not that hard, but the belaying had to be spot on, and some people think that makes the route harder.
Well done anyway, now you have lost your Gogarth virginity you will be going back to do lots more routes there. Rap and Pel will give you some steeper climbing with Lighthouse Arete as an escape route if needed.
Several things. The descent when birds are still nesting can be seriously scary, they dive bomb you and at least one person has nearly lost an eye to them.
You were probably hyped up for a hard route, and it was not as hard as you thought it would be, I thought it was between VS and HVS. The climbing is not that hard, but the belaying had to be spot on, and some people think that makes the route harder.
Well done anyway, now you have lost your Gogarth virginity you will be going back to do lots more routes there. Rap and Pel will give you some steeper climbing with Lighthouse Arete as an escape route if needed.
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
That's quite interesting to hear. Maybe I was just having a really good day! I've been reading the Rock Warrior's Way, so maybe I've got my head in gear better than I thought. It bodes well for the future.
That's quite interesting to hear. Maybe I was just having a really good day! I've been reading the Rock Warrior's Way, so maybe I've got my head in gear better than I thought. It bodes well for the future.
In reply to John2:
Totally understand that, although the selective guide does mention it for the Wen area.
Agreed again. I started off quite slowly on my lead as it was a new rock type, and I was aware I didn't know much about the friction or the gear.
> As far as Gogarth goes, I think that when people talk about the 'Gogarth grip' they're usually talking about either the main cliff routes which are mainly big uncompromising multi pitch routes with enormous exposure or the looser routes at places like Red Wall. Wen Zawn is pretty friendly compared with either of those locations.
Totally understand that, although the selective guide does mention it for the Wen area.
> Grades do differ from crag to crag, and the best idea is to start on a relatively easy route in a new location and not push yourself too much until you've formed an opinion as to how you find the grades there.
Agreed again. I started off quite slowly on my lead as it was a new rock type, and I was aware I didn't know much about the friction or the gear.
In reply to sutty:
I now have a large wishlist for the place. Including Rap, Pel & LA, but more importantly going in hunt of the Gogarth 'Grip' on Dream (since I'm nervous about seconding traverses, had a bad experience once) and the The Green Slab on recommendation from jcm.
I now have a large wishlist for the place. Including Rap, Pel & LA, but more importantly going in hunt of the Gogarth 'Grip' on Dream (since I'm nervous about seconding traverses, had a bad experience once) and the The Green Slab on recommendation from jcm.
In reply to cider nut:
I have always thought Wen slab not quite so intimidating, as say the main cliff, or even the upper tier which always looks like it's all over hanging slightly whe you are on the approach.
As for Wen, I found the last pitch quite tricky if I recall, but still steady for HVS as was DOWH. Likewise for Britomartis.
Try some of the routes like Bezel or the Ramp on the upper tier next maybe. Always considered them quite good value and better rock than wen slab.
And then do Central Park......(warm up on the Strand before hand though).
I have always thought Wen slab not quite so intimidating, as say the main cliff, or even the upper tier which always looks like it's all over hanging slightly whe you are on the approach.
As for Wen, I found the last pitch quite tricky if I recall, but still steady for HVS as was DOWH. Likewise for Britomartis.
Try some of the routes like Bezel or the Ramp on the upper tier next maybe. Always considered them quite good value and better rock than wen slab.
And then do Central Park......(warm up on the Strand before hand though).
In reply to Mark Westerman:
Britomartis is high on the list too, forgot that. Cheers for the other recommendations, although why do I have a hunch that that you're sandbagging me with Central Park? Although surprisingly not according to peoples' logbooks
Britomartis is high on the list too, forgot that. Cheers for the other recommendations, although why do I have a hunch that that you're sandbagging me with Central Park? Although surprisingly not according to peoples' logbooks
In reply to cider nut:
I belayed a friend of mine and regular on here on Central Park a couple of years a go, who took a bit of a flyer on this route. He moaned about a wet hold (which I didn't find!), but he is weak.
Mind you did his first 8a this year.
Mark
I belayed a friend of mine and regular on here on Central Park a couple of years a go, who took a bit of a flyer on this route. He moaned about a wet hold (which I didn't find!), but he is weak.
Mind you did his first 8a this year.
Mark
In reply to Mark Westerman:
hah!
> (In reply to cider nut)
>
>
> And then do Central Park......(warm up on the Strand before hand though).
>
>
> And then do Central Park......(warm up on the Strand before hand though).
hah!
In reply to cider nut:
You will find Britomartis good value for the grade. Concrete Chimney is also well worth HVS, and not just for the situation.
> (In reply to Mark Westerman)
>
> Britomartis is high on the list too, forgot that.
>
> Britomartis is high on the list too, forgot that.
You will find Britomartis good value for the grade. Concrete Chimney is also well worth HVS, and not just for the situation.
In reply to cider nut:
Like you say - one route is not enough to base an informed opinion on!
In my experience Gogath varies a lot and you either seem to have brilliant days or nightmares - your view on the place being a funtion of the balance of these experiences.
eg Almost having my head taken off by part of Fantasia falling off and 'escaping' up Red Wall in an excitable mood = a very Ggarth experience
Enjoying The Moon on a sunny day and finding it ok for the grade also a very Gogarth day.
Like you say - one route is not enough to base an informed opinion on!
In my experience Gogath varies a lot and you either seem to have brilliant days or nightmares - your view on the place being a funtion of the balance of these experiences.
eg Almost having my head taken off by part of Fantasia falling off and 'escaping' up Red Wall in an excitable mood = a very Ggarth experience
Enjoying The Moon on a sunny day and finding it ok for the grade also a very Gogarth day.
In reply to Mark Westerman:
It was wet! But you're right I am weak.
In reply to Cider Nut:
It looks like you have discovered the truth that Gogarth devotees have been trying to keep hidden for years; Gogarth ain't all that bad. The rock on the North Stack crags is pretty good, the only thing to worry about is that it can sometimes feel a bit soapy which is very un-nerving and the cracks are well weathered so sometimes pro can seem a bit dodgy (lots of elongated vertical pockets rather than continuous cracks so wires don't seat as well as they might).
When I climbed there a lot I never encountered the Gogarth grip and thought a lot of the grades quite soft but I've been back there a bit recently and been scared and found the grades hard. My conclusion? As with any area you get used to things and they seem easier.
> I belayed a friend of mine and regular on here on Central Park a couple of years a go, who took a bit of a flyer on this route. He moaned about a wet hold (which I didn't find!), but he is weak.
It was wet! But you're right I am weak.
In reply to Cider Nut:
It looks like you have discovered the truth that Gogarth devotees have been trying to keep hidden for years; Gogarth ain't all that bad. The rock on the North Stack crags is pretty good, the only thing to worry about is that it can sometimes feel a bit soapy which is very un-nerving and the cracks are well weathered so sometimes pro can seem a bit dodgy (lots of elongated vertical pockets rather than continuous cracks so wires don't seat as well as they might).
When I climbed there a lot I never encountered the Gogarth grip and thought a lot of the grades quite soft but I've been back there a bit recently and been scared and found the grades hard. My conclusion? As with any area you get used to things and they seem easier.
In reply to cider nut:
Only been there a couple of times, but found the south stack routes quite amenable and the HVSs quite low in the grade. On the main cliff we had an epic trying Pentathol (in the rain, also had an run-in with a militant seagull) and that probably had an effect on us when we did Britomartis - I'd say it was solid HVS.
At the same time I've heard stories of gear ripping on Wen slab, so it's probably not the best crag to push yourself
Only been there a couple of times, but found the south stack routes quite amenable and the HVSs quite low in the grade. On the main cliff we had an epic trying Pentathol (in the rain, also had an run-in with a militant seagull) and that probably had an effect on us when we did Britomartis - I'd say it was solid HVS.
At the same time I've heard stories of gear ripping on Wen slab, so it's probably not the best crag to push yourself
In reply to Chris the Tall: I found the main cliff and mousetrap zawn both absolutly amazing. Grades about right due to looseness of mousetrap and pump on last pitch of Gogarth (E1). Reasonable to other E1s and E2s I've done in places like Tremadog. Although I couldn't really say what solid E2 was like as 'Vector' at tremadog gives a bit of a warped view of it.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Gear rips anywhere if you don't place it properly; I'd have said the gear on Wen Slab was better and easier to place than it is on other areas of the cliff.
Wen Zawn and Castell Helen routes are generally quite low in the grade (in my experience). The routes I've done on other areas have either been at least fair (especially when you take into account the approaches/possibility of escape) or even quite hard for the grade (Central Park springs to mind).
Gear rips anywhere if you don't place it properly; I'd have said the gear on Wen Slab was better and easier to place than it is on other areas of the cliff.
Wen Zawn and Castell Helen routes are generally quite low in the grade (in my experience). The routes I've done on other areas have either been at least fair (especially when you take into account the approaches/possibility of escape) or even quite hard for the grade (Central Park springs to mind).
In reply to cider nut: The bottom pitch of Wen is by far the hardest (and best) one on the route. Really phyical 5a. I don't think you can say you've done this route if you skipped this.
In reply to cider nut:I've only climbed at Gogarth on one weekend, and found it pretty epic. we tried central park, as more experienced friends considered it a bit rough for the planned Dream. led the first pitch, which i found really hard going- 4c, but more sustained than the gritstone routes i'd been doing, with hard work finding the holds and the gear. my partner then led the second pitch, managing to fall off and hang upside down...good for her she carried on, and eventually finished the route, after a very prolonged period when both of us failed to realise her rope was jammed behind a runner and effectively preventing upward progress.
the following day we wimped out, and seconded somebody else up an easier route in very subdued fashion.
time to plan a rematch- only next time it'll be lighthouse arete for confidence followed by Dream
the following day we wimped out, and seconded somebody else up an easier route in very subdued fashion.
time to plan a rematch- only next time it'll be lighthouse arete for confidence followed by Dream
In reply to wendy n:
Did Wen, DOWH and Concrete Chimney all in a day a few years back. Wen was definitely the easiest and poorest quality of the three. CC was the best and hardest.
Often, if I consider something soft for the grade, ask what it would be like one rung down. Soft at HVS it may be, but Wen would be pretty unreasonable for the VS leader.
Did Wen, DOWH and Concrete Chimney all in a day a few years back. Wen was definitely the easiest and poorest quality of the three. CC was the best and hardest.
Often, if I consider something soft for the grade, ask what it would be like one rung down. Soft at HVS it may be, but Wen would be pretty unreasonable for the VS leader.
In reply to Owen W-G:
>Soft at HVS it may be, but Wen would be pretty unreasonable for the VS leader.
You reckon? We both thought VS would be a more appropriate grade, but maybe missing the first pitch made all the difference.
>Soft at HVS it may be, but Wen would be pretty unreasonable for the VS leader.
You reckon? We both thought VS would be a more appropriate grade, but maybe missing the first pitch made all the difference.
In reply to wendy n: Central Park is evil and wrong. The hardest HVS I've done this year.
In reply to wendy n: Why not do Britomartis followed by Dream? They are at least on the same crag.
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: What's evryone got against Central Park? Standard HVS crack.
In reply to cider nut:
Rap, Pel and LA are all excellent - even safer and more user friendly to ab into than Wen Zawn. The first pitch of Rap is a stunner.
I reckon the real Gogarth experience only comes when you walk into the Main Cliff - it's just so atmospheric. There are a few HVS's to be had, but I found The Ramp to be the best, and I liked Cordon Bleu, not for the climbing as such, but because of where it takes you and all the amazing routes it crosses.
cheers
Rich
Rap, Pel and LA are all excellent - even safer and more user friendly to ab into than Wen Zawn. The first pitch of Rap is a stunner.
I reckon the real Gogarth experience only comes when you walk into the Main Cliff - it's just so atmospheric. There are a few HVS's to be had, but I found The Ramp to be the best, and I liked Cordon Bleu, not for the climbing as such, but because of where it takes you and all the amazing routes it crosses.
cheers
Rich
In reply to cider nut:
See, that's why. Tides at 12:23, optimum conditions, everything will feel piss. 12:20 or 12:25, you'd be f*cked.
> I also accept that, as well as being mentally over prepared, we went on a very calm day with a low tide at 12:23
See, that's why. Tides at 12:23, optimum conditions, everything will feel piss. 12:20 or 12:25, you'd be f*cked.
In reply to Owen W-G:
It's much easier than Questor (VS 4b) I did the week before at Wyncliffe! Can't really compare them as Questor is on limestone and only single pitch on an inland crag so you can just lower off if it goes wrong, but just an example.
I've done about 10 HVS's now, about half of them onsight, and every single one I found very hard (in a good way) and I had to give it everything I had - except Wen.
> Often, if I consider something soft for the grade, ask what it would be like one rung down. Soft at HVS it may be, but Wen would be pretty unreasonable for the VS leader.
It's much easier than Questor (VS 4b) I did the week before at Wyncliffe! Can't really compare them as Questor is on limestone and only single pitch on an inland crag so you can just lower off if it goes wrong, but just an example.
I've done about 10 HVS's now, about half of them onsight, and every single one I found very hard (in a good way) and I had to give it everything I had - except Wen.
In reply to cider nut:
I found the 1st pitch (from the zawn bed) the hardest. Then we had just got a soaking from the ferry going past!
When you do Dream, start from the bottom. The first pitch of Dream is easier than Wen's first pitch.
Sounds like you enjoyed one of my favourite climbing areas. Scavenger on the Gogarth Main Cliff is ace too...
I found the 1st pitch (from the zawn bed) the hardest. Then we had just got a soaking from the ferry going past!
When you do Dream, start from the bottom. The first pitch of Dream is easier than Wen's first pitch.
Sounds like you enjoyed one of my favourite climbing areas. Scavenger on the Gogarth Main Cliff is ace too...
In reply to John2:
Two hexes on the main pitch, back in the day. Aladdinsane transposed to grander surroundings.
Mick
> What's evryone got against Central Park? Standard HVS crack.
Two hexes on the main pitch, back in the day. Aladdinsane transposed to grander surroundings.
Mick
In reply to cider nut:
I've not done Wen, but I'm always surprised when people mention Questor as hard for VS. It was my first lead as an eager 17 year old (my 4th route outdoors too :-0). Admittedly it does feel harder every time I do it!
> It's much easier than Questor (VS 4b) I did the week before at Wyncliffe! Can't really compare them as Questor is on limestone and only single pitch on an inland crag so you can just lower off if it goes wrong, but just an example.
I've not done Wen, but I'm always surprised when people mention Questor as hard for VS. It was my first lead as an eager 17 year old (my 4th route outdoors too :-0). Admittedly it does feel harder every time I do it!
In reply to cider nut:
Well Cider Nut, the consensus seems to be that you should go back and do it properly, including the first pitch
Gogarth is a fantastic place for HVS climbing, with a great mix of friendly and challenging approaches / situations - enjoy
One of the best investments you can make for seacliff climbing is a 100m ab rope
Well Cider Nut, the consensus seems to be that you should go back and do it properly, including the first pitch
Gogarth is a fantastic place for HVS climbing, with a great mix of friendly and challenging approaches / situations - enjoy
One of the best investments you can make for seacliff climbing is a 100m ab rope
In reply to kevin stephens:
Why go back and repeat a route when there's so many more routes to do?
100m ab rope - it's bad enough lugging my existing kit into a crag, without one of those!!
Why go back and repeat a route when there's so many more routes to do?
100m ab rope - it's bad enough lugging my existing kit into a crag, without one of those!!
In reply to cider nut:next time climb the first pitch. I think you'll find its a bit harder than hard severe, especially if its damp!
In reply to cider nut:
We used to use a 70m ab rope. It also means you can get to the bottom of cliffs like Castell Helen without the faff or danger of switching ropes halfway down (someone tried to pull up my smaller ab rope whilst I was changing ropes once!!)
We used to use a 70m ab rope. It also means you can get to the bottom of cliffs like Castell Helen without the faff or danger of switching ropes halfway down (someone tried to pull up my smaller ab rope whilst I was changing ropes once!!)
In reply to cider nut: How come the Cornish term 'zawn' now gets used by climbers for any rocky inlet, anywhere? Surely there's an equivalent Welsh term, and regional equivalents all round Britain?
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