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From the Planet Fear site:
"[1/13] From Adrian - Posted on Wed, October 09, 2002 at 11:09am
I have given my thumbs up to an offer by John Bullock to retrobolt, and add new routes to Rams Tor - a great little crag near Limeslade Bay (close to Mumbles). I bolted a number of routes there several years ago, but it never really caught on because there was a bit of a trad/sport mix.
If anyone has any serious objections, now is a good time to raise them."
"[1/13] From Adrian - Posted on Wed, October 09, 2002 at 11:09am
I have given my thumbs up to an offer by John Bullock to retrobolt, and add new routes to Rams Tor - a great little crag near Limeslade Bay (close to Mumbles). I bolted a number of routes there several years ago, but it never really caught on because there was a bit of a trad/sport mix.
If anyone has any serious objections, now is a good time to raise them."
1
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
Another small doorstep that no one uses but everyone wants to save from the evil of the bolt. Whats the problem? Are we scared climbing might become popular or even accessable? If you want adventure then don't clip the bolt
Another small doorstep that no one uses but everyone wants to save from the evil of the bolt. Whats the problem? Are we scared climbing might become popular or even accessable? If you want adventure then don't clip the bolt
In reply to ScottA:
I'll ignore that rhetoric as it obviously isn't directed at me but this comment
"If you want adventure then don't clip the bolt"
Is ill-thought out, ill-conceived and a load of bollox. This argument gives those wanting see everything bolted (if there are such beings) a license to bolt everything or anything they want.
Let's bolt up Cenotaph Corner and for those who want the original adventure well,,,,don't clip the bolts....
Gaia rely does need a bolt at the top of the groove to protect those potential bone-crushing exit moves. Why deny everyone the experience...lets bolt the whole darn climb up, after all if you want to taste the original challenge set by nature and the first ascensionist....don't clip the bolts.
Think again ScottA...a very weak argument that has been repeated ad infinitum by the "bolt everything brigade" and is always shot down by anti-bolt extremists and middle-of-the-roads alike.
Mick
> (In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA)
> Another small doorstep that no one uses but everyone wants to save from the evil of the bolt. Whats the problem? Are we scared climbing might become popular or even accessable?
> Another small doorstep that no one uses but everyone wants to save from the evil of the bolt. Whats the problem? Are we scared climbing might become popular or even accessable?
I'll ignore that rhetoric as it obviously isn't directed at me but this comment
"If you want adventure then don't clip the bolt"
Is ill-thought out, ill-conceived and a load of bollox. This argument gives those wanting see everything bolted (if there are such beings) a license to bolt everything or anything they want.
Let's bolt up Cenotaph Corner and for those who want the original adventure well,,,,don't clip the bolts....
Gaia rely does need a bolt at the top of the groove to protect those potential bone-crushing exit moves. Why deny everyone the experience...lets bolt the whole darn climb up, after all if you want to taste the original challenge set by nature and the first ascensionist....don't clip the bolts.
Think again ScottA...a very weak argument that has been repeated ad infinitum by the "bolt everything brigade" and is always shot down by anti-bolt extremists and middle-of-the-roads alike.
Mick
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
Yet another moan about previously bolted areas. Dont get me wrong I've never been there so please feel free to ignore me, but if new routes were initially set up using bolts and haven't been superceded by modern gear then for gods sake why not bolt new routes properly. I dont know about this area but there already appears to be a consensus in the UK to differentiate between Trad and Bolt places....just keep it off the grit ( apart from the ones I'm too scared to do!)..
Yet another moan about previously bolted areas. Dont get me wrong I've never been there so please feel free to ignore me, but if new routes were initially set up using bolts and haven't been superceded by modern gear then for gods sake why not bolt new routes properly. I dont know about this area but there already appears to be a consensus in the UK to differentiate between Trad and Bolt places....just keep it off the grit ( apart from the ones I'm too scared to do!)..
In reply to priesty:
I agree about the ones we are afraid on. So can we have bolts on Bald Pate, Transparent Wall, TPS, bugger I just realised I get scared on everything now so bolts everywere for the bumblies and nervously challenged.
I agree about the ones we are afraid on. So can we have bolts on Bald Pate, Transparent Wall, TPS, bugger I just realised I get scared on everything now so bolts everywere for the bumblies and nervously challenged.
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: You are stirring Mick. If Rams Torr is supposed to represent the thin end of the wedge then what do Rockfax guides promoting Portland, N Wales limestone, Costa Blanca, etc, etc represent?
Steve
Steve
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
Mick, Ken's Thin End of the Wedge argument is now into its forth decade and is more of a ball and chain to British climbing than a benefit. The sands of time have proven that British climbing can look after itself without resorting to mass retro-bolting and yet Ken still manages to dominate meetings with his tired old rhetoric and prevent any real debate taking place.
More examples of the thin end of the wedge:
September 17 1978 - Fawcett places 2 bolts in The Cad at Gogarth. The 2002 (24 years later) count of free-climbing bolts at Gogarth is 1 as far as I know.
July 14 1983 - Redhead places a bolt on Cloggy on Masters Wall. I don't know of any current free-climbing bolts on Cloggy.
August 8 1983 - Stuart Cathcart places three bolts in Steel Appeal and New Era on Cyrn Las. 2002 bolt count on Cyrn Las = 0 and I don't know of any others in the Pass as a whole.
Even if you consider routes like Clarion Call in 1986 they have hardly led to anything other than a decent sport climbing crag. The bolt influence from Clarion Call has possibly resulted in the sportification (new word) of one or two trad lines on the Cornice but you still need two wires for Une Crime Passionelle. Further up Chee Dale Multiplex, Spizz Energy, Summer Wine and Mad Dogs and Englishmen are still great trad routes and long may they remain so.
In the 1980s Ken's argument had a place but that was when the battle lines were drawn. Redrawing them today with the ill-informed arguments he puts in his latest post slagging of Portland doesn't benefit anyone, it just alienates young climbers from the debate.
Alan
Mick, Ken's Thin End of the Wedge argument is now into its forth decade and is more of a ball and chain to British climbing than a benefit. The sands of time have proven that British climbing can look after itself without resorting to mass retro-bolting and yet Ken still manages to dominate meetings with his tired old rhetoric and prevent any real debate taking place.
More examples of the thin end of the wedge:
September 17 1978 - Fawcett places 2 bolts in The Cad at Gogarth. The 2002 (24 years later) count of free-climbing bolts at Gogarth is 1 as far as I know.
July 14 1983 - Redhead places a bolt on Cloggy on Masters Wall. I don't know of any current free-climbing bolts on Cloggy.
August 8 1983 - Stuart Cathcart places three bolts in Steel Appeal and New Era on Cyrn Las. 2002 bolt count on Cyrn Las = 0 and I don't know of any others in the Pass as a whole.
Even if you consider routes like Clarion Call in 1986 they have hardly led to anything other than a decent sport climbing crag. The bolt influence from Clarion Call has possibly resulted in the sportification (new word) of one or two trad lines on the Cornice but you still need two wires for Une Crime Passionelle. Further up Chee Dale Multiplex, Spizz Energy, Summer Wine and Mad Dogs and Englishmen are still great trad routes and long may they remain so.
In the 1980s Ken's argument had a place but that was when the battle lines were drawn. Redrawing them today with the ill-informed arguments he puts in his latest post slagging of Portland doesn't benefit anyone, it just alienates young climbers from the debate.
Alan
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: This coming from someone who did a fair amount of bolting in his time.....
A touch hypocritical perhaps?
A touch hypocritical perhaps?
In reply to MJH:
Why is it hypocritical to change your mind or become educated to the new ways? We pegged and bolted routes years ago that are now free routes, Some of the routes we bolted have fallen into disuse as not many people do much aid now and some are still to hard as sports routes. Look on the bottom of Malham for an example.
Remember the day when Mark Leach did Kilnsey overhang free? Well it was certainly not as unsafe as doing Kilnsey overhang on aid, bolts for safety reduced it to a clip up albeit a very hard one. As an aid route stuff would pop regularly, it was nervewracking but of a different sort.
As has been said on so many threads this week there are locals who are policing the crags fairly well and making people think before using bolts on routes. It is only glory hunters who will go against the flow and they are soon shot down.
Why is it hypocritical to change your mind or become educated to the new ways? We pegged and bolted routes years ago that are now free routes, Some of the routes we bolted have fallen into disuse as not many people do much aid now and some are still to hard as sports routes. Look on the bottom of Malham for an example.
Remember the day when Mark Leach did Kilnsey overhang free? Well it was certainly not as unsafe as doing Kilnsey overhang on aid, bolts for safety reduced it to a clip up albeit a very hard one. As an aid route stuff would pop regularly, it was nervewracking but of a different sort.
As has been said on so many threads this week there are locals who are policing the crags fairly well and making people think before using bolts on routes. It is only glory hunters who will go against the flow and they are soon shot down.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
I don't see how it is. I believe his usefulness is that he stimulates debate, opens up the discussion and keeps us on our toes. He's not the only one by any means. I think UK climbing culture is what keeps UK climbing diverse and Ken is a cog, an importanty one, in that culture.
Yes it does look after itself because of people like Ken and any of us who takes it seriously.
Does he? I think the debate would be healthy with or without him. He is a bit loud in meetings....a bit of a showman.
Good examples
I agree as regards Portland et al. I think he should direct his attention to the Alps.
Mick
> (In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA)
>
> Mick, Ken's Thin End of the Wedge argument is now into its forth decade and is more of a ball and chain to British climbing than a benefit.
>
> Mick, Ken's Thin End of the Wedge argument is now into its forth decade and is more of a ball and chain to British climbing than a benefit.
I don't see how it is. I believe his usefulness is that he stimulates debate, opens up the discussion and keeps us on our toes. He's not the only one by any means. I think UK climbing culture is what keeps UK climbing diverse and Ken is a cog, an importanty one, in that culture.
> The sands of time have proven that British climbing can look after itself without resorting to mass retro-bolting
Yes it does look after itself because of people like Ken and any of us who takes it seriously.
> and yet Ken still manages to dominate meetings with his tired old rhetoric and prevent any real debate taking place.
Does he? I think the debate would be healthy with or without him. He is a bit loud in meetings....a bit of a showman.
>
> More examples of the thin end of the wedge: (cut)
> More examples of the thin end of the wedge: (cut)
Good examples
> In the 1980s Ken's argument had a place but that was when the battle lines were drawn. Redrawing them today with the ill-informed arguments he puts in his latest post slagging of Portland doesn't benefit anyone, it just alienates young climbers from the debate.
I agree as regards Portland et al. I think he should direct his attention to the Alps.
Mick
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
...but don't you think he is losing his sharpness and thus relevance because his arguments are sounding so tired. There are plenty around to fly the trad flag at present and most wouldn't align themselves with Ken's arguments. His 2 forays onto ROCKTALK have not provided any great points of controversy beyond showing that he has lost touch with climbers.
Alan
...but don't you think he is losing his sharpness and thus relevance because his arguments are sounding so tired. There are plenty around to fly the trad flag at present and most wouldn't align themselves with Ken's arguments. His 2 forays onto ROCKTALK have not provided any great points of controversy beyond showing that he has lost touch with climbers.
Alan
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
I think his first foray was spot on up to the minute relevant, linked as it is to walls' insurance going through the roof.
I think his first foray was spot on up to the minute relevant, linked as it is to walls' insurance going through the roof.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
Alan
I don't think Ken has lost touch with climbers at all. We've got to remember that the majority of climbers don't use the net to look at message boards, they use it for looking at footy scores, buying granny a present from amazon or looking at porn, much like the majority of the population. Its only obsessives like us who get our knickers in a twist. I think you'll find the majority of climbers like the scene as it is, both Brits and foreign visitors.
Now I can't comment on Portland coz I've never been, yep surprisingly its never appealed. Had a family trip to Orpierre this summer and thoroughly enjoyed the easier graded bolted routes as did my 7 year old son. Easy climbing, very safe and user friendly. The point is we haven't got the resources in this country for that sort of playground. The amount of rock just isn't around. As long as Ken continues ranting people will think twice before pushing the parameters. Once he stops we might all have to go to Jewsons and buy some bolt cutters.
Dave Ferguson
Alan
I don't think Ken has lost touch with climbers at all. We've got to remember that the majority of climbers don't use the net to look at message boards, they use it for looking at footy scores, buying granny a present from amazon or looking at porn, much like the majority of the population. Its only obsessives like us who get our knickers in a twist. I think you'll find the majority of climbers like the scene as it is, both Brits and foreign visitors.
Now I can't comment on Portland coz I've never been, yep surprisingly its never appealed. Had a family trip to Orpierre this summer and thoroughly enjoyed the easier graded bolted routes as did my 7 year old son. Easy climbing, very safe and user friendly. The point is we haven't got the resources in this country for that sort of playground. The amount of rock just isn't around. As long as Ken continues ranting people will think twice before pushing the parameters. Once he stops we might all have to go to Jewsons and buy some bolt cutters.
Dave Ferguson
In reply to dave ferguson:
Sorry to interrupt, and I know this thread is a serious one.....but guys, just check out the link I've posted on the six minutes thread down the pub........
Sorry to interrupt, and I know this thread is a serious one.....but guys, just check out the link I've posted on the six minutes thread down the pub........
In reply to gingerkate:
Am I thinking of the wrong thread 'cos I don't remember anything about insurance in the two I'm referring to? One was this silly point about 'crag exercising' and the other was the ill-informed side-swipe at Portland climbers.Was there another?
Alan
> I think his first foray was spot on up to the minute relevant, linked as it is to walls' insurance going through the roof.
Am I thinking of the wrong thread 'cos I don't remember anything about insurance in the two I'm referring to? One was this silly point about 'crag exercising' and the other was the ill-informed side-swipe at Portland climbers.Was there another?
Alan
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
Ah, I didn't mean the first thread he started, I meant the one that brought him here.... it was called 'Ken Wilson', and started by Mick, and what Ken posted on it was interesting, I thought.
I think it's a pity that the important stuff to worry about (plaisir climbing???? have I got that right? anyway, putting fixed ropes up on mountains) is getting lost in all this.
Ah, I didn't mean the first thread he started, I meant the one that brought him here.... it was called 'Ken Wilson', and started by Mick, and what Ken posted on it was interesting, I thought.
I think it's a pity that the important stuff to worry about (plaisir climbing???? have I got that right? anyway, putting fixed ropes up on mountains) is getting lost in all this.
In reply to dave ferguson:
I disagree. I think that there are plenty of people who will set the parameters without any help from Ken. I am also not remotely worried about all these random retro-bolters suddenly appearing a the moment Ken stops ranting.
However I do agree that the issue needs to be raised every now and then I just think that the way Ken does it nowadays tends to be greeted with groans of "oh no, not again" which turns people off.
I didn't really understand your first point about the Internet. My reason for suggesting that Ken had lost touch with climbers was the stupid comments he made about the Dorset climbers as if they are all mad bolters. Anyone in touch with climbing would know that isn't the case.
Alan
> Now I can't comment on Portland coz I've never been, yep surprisingly its never appealed. Had a family trip to Orpierre this summer and thoroughly enjoyed the easier graded bolted routes as did my 7 year old son. Easy climbing, very safe and user friendly. The point is we haven't got the resources in this country for that sort of playground. The amount of rock just isn't around. As long as Ken continues ranting people will think twice before pushing the parameters. Once he stops we might all have to go to Jewsons and buy some bolt cutters.
I disagree. I think that there are plenty of people who will set the parameters without any help from Ken. I am also not remotely worried about all these random retro-bolters suddenly appearing a the moment Ken stops ranting.
However I do agree that the issue needs to be raised every now and then I just think that the way Ken does it nowadays tends to be greeted with groans of "oh no, not again" which turns people off.
I didn't really understand your first point about the Internet. My reason for suggesting that Ken had lost touch with climbers was the stupid comments he made about the Dorset climbers as if they are all mad bolters. Anyone in touch with climbing would know that isn't the case.
Alan
In reply to Alan James: I think your last post was spot on. It seems to me that people are looking back at Ken Wilsons role in the various bolt debates of the early '90s with rose tinted spectacles. He appears to be getting credited, especially by Mick, as having a pivotal role in turning around the bolt debates. He certainly had an impact, but as often as not his effect was very negative turning many young climbers off the arguments he was so vocal in trying to share with us. For a time a lot of concerned people thought that there was a very real risk that his uncompromising attitude and general bullying would have the exact opposite effect of what he intended. Good debate is one thing but over reacting and appearing out of touch is not conducive to the status quo which, as Alan points out, is doing just fine in this country at the moment.
In reply to Steve Mayers:
Steve, I did say earlier that he was but a cog in the UK climbing culture. He was definately the most vocal as regards bolts, but as you say it was the people were actually placing bolts which in the end decided the direction British climbing took and they were influenced by many factors not least their UK climbing upbringing - which seems very much alive and kicking.
I think if there wasn't any debate and no pressure the retrobolts would spread as has happened in the USA climbing scene where there are very little checks and balances (and Kens).
Mick
Steve, I did say earlier that he was but a cog in the UK climbing culture. He was definately the most vocal as regards bolts, but as you say it was the people were actually placing bolts which in the end decided the direction British climbing took and they were influenced by many factors not least their UK climbing upbringing - which seems very much alive and kicking.
I think if there wasn't any debate and no pressure the retrobolts would spread as has happened in the USA climbing scene where there are very little checks and balances (and Kens).
Mick
In reply to gingerkate:
I thought that topic revolved around Ken's no-clipping-protest climb at whichever-wall-it-was ... the 'link' to insurance issues was tangential and unrelated to Ken's motives.
> I think his first foray was spot on up to the minute relevant, linked as it is to walls' insurance going through the roof.
I thought that topic revolved around Ken's no-clipping-protest climb at whichever-wall-it-was ... the 'link' to insurance issues was tangential and unrelated to Ken's motives.
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
Well Dracula, in the words of a fellow Brummie, Mandy Rice Davis, "You would say that wouldn't you." I have my cross and mirror to hand.
Well Dracula, in the words of a fellow Brummie, Mandy Rice Davis, "You would say that wouldn't you." I have my cross and mirror to hand.
In reply to Ken Wilson:
Hey look, Ken Wilson, King Of The Selective Guidebook, Populariser Of Climbing Through Your magazines and books, we much prefer Christine Keeler.
See Mandy here:
http://website.lineone.net/~bryanwharton/rooms/room18/mandy.htm
See Christine here:
http://home.clara.net/digger/sixties/christine.htm
......and judge for yourself.
Mick Profumo
And call my mate Dracula one more time and I'll be round.........
Hey look, Ken Wilson, King Of The Selective Guidebook, Populariser Of Climbing Through Your magazines and books, we much prefer Christine Keeler.
See Mandy here:
http://website.lineone.net/~bryanwharton/rooms/room18/mandy.htm
See Christine here:
http://home.clara.net/digger/sixties/christine.htm
......and judge for yourself.
Mick Profumo
And call my mate Dracula one more time and I'll be round.........
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