UKC

I know this has been posted before (22nd November) but closing date is next week

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/MountainRescue/

Its one of those web petition thingys asking for people to register their support for the motion that Mountain Rescue become a public funded organisation

Previous debate on this forum here was whether public funding would make it too bureaucratic… probably lead to more people abusing it (“can you help us find our way home we have a dinner appointment”)… but then I guess it depends on level of funding

Anyway, if you are interested, here’s the link, if you are not, well fair enough

In reply to Vlad: is there a counter petition?

that's the real problem with that e-petition system as far as i can see - you can't just disagree with what's put up

In reply to rich:

Put one up yourself ?

Its like any other form of petition isn't it - if you agree sign it - if you don't start a rival petition

Its places like this that you get to state that you disagree and your reasons for holding such a position - or even just stating your position and not bothering with reasons...

In reply to rich:

In answer to your question however I don't know if there is a counter petition - a friend had directed me to the site for a proposal that the monday after remembrance day becomes a bank holiday - whilst I was there I had a look at what else seemed to be catching the public imagingation and happened to notice this one

I thought it might be of relevance to people on RT - hence this post

Me, I support both Mountain Rescue and RNLI and will continue to do so irrespective of the public purse

In reply to Vlad: I agree it should be supported by the tax payer but I think if it was then it would be more difficult to get volunteers as I think they'd have a good claim to be paid as retained firemen are and we could end up with a situation where people are charged for callouts. The law of unintended consequences and all that.

In reply to Vlad:

most MRT members I have known, and cave rescue etc are strongly against goverment funding

anyone can start these daft petitions without due thought or consideration, eg if the MRT want the accountability that could come with govt funding, if govt would seak financial redress from those rescued etc

In reply to Vlad:

see they have tried to resurrect this one again.

In reply to kevin stephens: absolutely correct - they do not want it and are fed up with people who have no connection with it forever bringing it up

its outdoor people rescued by outdoor people funded by the generous donations of outdoor people

In reply to Fawksey:

not always outdoor people though is it, what about vulnerable persons searches, disaster contigencies? Increasing number of calls to this kind of job.

In reply to Comms27: abslutely true: Alzhiemers to Lockerbie disaster, they still dont want government funding, and people please dont keep going on about the number of call outs causing a strain etc, The number of times Ive assisted when in another area and the team leader has recorded it as a shout - its like the air ambulance the more call outs the more they justify what they do

In reply to Fawksey:

got to agree with you there. I would like to see a little more dosh come our way though, especially when supporting statutory services

In reply to Vlad:

As a member of a Mountain Rescue Team:

I've been called out to search for/ deal with:
Numerous people with Alzheimers,
Numerous suicide attempts (both successful & unsuccessful)
Numerous Missing children
Crashed aircraft, paragliders etc
The Chinese cocklepickers on Morecambe Bay
The Virgin Trains derailment at Greyrigg.
The list goes on...

In fact most times I put on my boots in response to an MR page I am not looking after climbers, mountaineers, or walkers but the community as a whole.

I personally put my hand in my pocket to fuel my car to respond to each of these incidents.
I rely on the goodwill of my employer to allow me to go to these incidents in works time.
If I am involved in a callout at night and need I have to take the next day to sleep as annual leave.

A retained fireman is recompensed for his/her contribution, also all the equipment (fire engines etc.), and its maintainance costs are supported through our taxes.

Why should MR be any different?

If my house catches fire , the Fire Brigade turn out and put it out regardless of whether I have house insurance.

If I am mugged, the Police will respond regardless of whether or not I have any insurance policy.

Why should any Government Fuding for MR require insurance?
There is no precedence?

Personally (and I am speaking as an indivual, not a representative of my team, nor Mountain Rescue as a whole) I look forward to the day when the Government sees fit to provide funding for Mountain Rescue and MR team members can spend their time Saving Lives in Wild & Remote Places not spend their time, as many of us do, on street corners with collection tins.

In reply to Neil Conway: I hate that tag line "Saving Lives in Wild & Remote Places"

Was it just England and Wales that adopted it or did The Lake District teams aswell?

In reply to Vlad: Hi. Could you tell me who Karen Francis is? Specifically is she connected with MR at a local or national level? I'm trying to guage if there is official support for this before I sign it- from what I can tell here, MR is not unanimous about this, but if they have developed this petition themselves, I'd be happy to sign

In reply to Fawksey:
The Lakes teams are part of MR England & Wales.

In reply to Neil Conway:


Hi Neil,

I agree with you whole heartedly there, it would be nice if the English Government give some more to English SAR. the Wlsh get some money, the English get none, the Scottish Teams get a lot of money as the English Teams get none.

The absoluite frace of insurance is one thing which needs settling straight away, why should Team A be better insured that Team X, just because of the Police Force whole controls them, well do the same 'job'.

Lastly, my next whinge is all about TAX on fuel for MR Vehicles !!!!

Dave

In reply to Vlad:
I believe that MR volunteers should have the same status as reserve firemen- and not be required to put in a day's leave from their place of work (as I understand some employers require). Even if MR call-outs could be designated as unpaid leave and not be taken off the hoiday leave entitlement, it would be a step forward. Given that there are a lot of 'rights' out there now for various members of society so that they can stay at work but work flexibly- eg those with dependent relatives, parents, disabled etc- I think a small change in workplace legislation to allow for this would be a worthy cause; It's impact would surely be so small on employers that this could be a goer.

Sxx

In reply to Sarah G: I'd be wary about any work related changes to the law, it may put employers off OKing staff to be in MRT's.

In reply to Sarah G:
>Even if MR call-outs could be designated as unpaid leave and not be taken off the hoiday leave entitlement, it would be a step forward.
Unpaid leave a step forward?

I volunteer as a member of an MR Team as I want to put something back into an area that I enjoy so much.
Not because I'm flush with cash.
20 callouts at year in works time and you lose a months salary? How many teams would be able to recruit if this were to be applied?
I and many other MR Team members wouldn't be able to afford to attend callouts if this were the case.

In reply to Neil Conway:

I think the view of many MRTs is shared with the air ambulances. That is, if we lose our charitable status and become public funded bodies, then we lose our autonomy, have to answer to government targets etc. It is a crazy situation and a poor reflection of politicians interference with emergency services

In reply to 3leggeddog:

I'm with the dog on this one. Help with zero tax rating, radio systems etc. is all to the good, but direct funding has to be a no-no for the reasons that other folks have mentioned.

In reply to Fawksey:

That is a myth. You're obviously talking to a very limited number of people in Mountain Rescue. Most people high up in MR in England and Wales would like some public funding, at least on a par with what Scottish teams get. The Scottish teams universally welcome it and have not had any "inteference" as a result.

Teams are being used more and more as an extra (free) police resource and while this is not resented, it does mean less time for fundraising. The Welsh teams have even been to Downing St to lobby for public funding.

In reply to chris_s: I agree with Toad, its up to the MRT teams, if they want core funding, then they should campaign for it, I'm not saying they do or don't, but I'm always wary about people from the outside trying to change it. The MRT's know how different issues will affect them, look at SarahG's work ideas, which Neil didn't like the sound of. Personally any campaign should come officially through MRT's and their national spokespersons. I've heard arguments for and against from MRT members so not sure.

I did worry if central funding would mean that the MRT's would be used as a civil service for any emergency event, but this happens anyway. Look at the recent flooding in North Wales, many floods were manned by MRT's.

In reply to IainRUK:

Agreed - the impetus should probably come from within the organisation, as it did in Scotland a few years ago. That goes both ways, though. I hear so many people shouting that public funding would be a bad thing, whereas my impression from many contacts in mountain rescue are that some "top-up" public funding would be very welcome. I think this is especially true of some of the lower profile teams that find it harder to raise cash.

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In reply to chris_s:

But at least in our case it _is_ indirect fundraising because our very supportive police force give us money and equipment. This is effectively in return for us offering our expertise and manpower in missing person searches and body recoveries. It's also of course rather more useful "training" for us than standing on a street corner with a tin.

In reply to Anonymous:


But ask your TL if your insurance is up to the recommended standard as suggested by the MR(E&W) and if not will your Police Force play for it.

We found out, that us and two other Teams had not been COVERED insurance wise for Training for approx 5 years !!!!!

Were you lucky enough to get your radios provided & maintained, vehicle fuel expenses, donation from the division which called you in.

Some teams do not some do, lets get parity across the whole board and not have each Team or Region being different depending on which Police force they are under.

Dave

In reply to Neil Conway:

IMHO i would like to say i share your views entirely, also feel the same about the RNLI, and would be hapy to pay more of my wages as tax to achieve this, it would be a better use of public money than proping up northern rock that's for sure

In reply to djh:
Aside from a few glitches I get the impression we get a good deal out of it compared to most teams - though there is further scope for improvement. I agree, consistency among the teams and their relationships with their police forces is important.

In reply to Anonymous: Can you get consistancy among teams when they they dont even answer to the MRC? No recognisable outfit worn by all teams and no common name, search and rescue, Mountain Rescue, Hill Rescue, Fell Rescue etc - duplication of roles with the local fire brigade and last but not least would some of the Lakes teams ever want to share funds from a common source?

The RNLI is and appears to be the same outfit wherever you see them and enjoy public support the likes of which MR can only dream of

In reply to Fawksey:

I think the Fire Service are having to create roles to justify their exsistance, but they are spreading themselves way too thinly, also what they do is questionable examples attend a water rescue, but no-one is wearing a PFD ! They extract a casualty, by a Trauma Tech and others, in a salvage sheet before an exam of the casualty revealed possible spinal injuries.

GMFRS have sent firefighters on the LanCon Missing persons search managers course - why ?

My thoughts are that the fire service are duplicating our roles.

Last gripe, what is it with their attitude to MRTS


I totally agree with you on this, I just wish MR (E&W) was one body and not 52 bodies fighting against each other.

Dave

In reply to Fawksey & Kevin Stephens

I've just been re-reading this thread & sorry Guys but your wrong, individual team members may be against it, but if MR (E&W) is against it, why did I duplicate 1500 CD's of a presentation to be given to MP's & House of Lords 'members', sanctioned by the top table of how MR (E&W) want parity with funding of Scottish Teams

I really do wish people would check the facts first before (not aimed at you two) they post stuff, there is alot of information privvy to MR members only which the public dont see, I am fortunate enough to know whats going on and as I posted on the MR (E&W) forum, which alas is public and not MR only and then reposted on UKC, in relation to PLB's its not the first time UKC has been full of inaccuracies.

It's like me saying that the McCanns are wanting funding for the making of TV series based on their experiences. I have no idea if thats correct or not.

The lady who started the petition, last year, did so off her own 'information' she had gleamed from various sources. If the MR community was so anti that petition, why did it get the support of the MR community and team members were asked to sign it. IIRC the people behind the funding issues (the Funding Committee) asked members to sign it.


I'm sorry thats now wrong as well, that might be true for Lake District & North Wales Teams.

The vast majority of donations come from lectures, collection tins in very non-outdoors locations, bequests. Using my Team as an example, from relatives of persons we have searched for and either found dead or alive, from relatives of persons we have searched for and had no negative or positive result from it. Lastly, corporate donations.

The world of MR is evolving in a major way. Its not just your fallen climber, cragfast climber, overdue walker or missing DoE group. MR is being 'used' for all eventualities based on the excellent working relationship with the statutory 999 services. It costs my team £26,000 per year to exsist. Thats for vehicle maintenance, insurance, equipment purchases, equipment maintenance, equipment repairs, catering on searches, base running costs, base maintenance costs, team issue PPE, team issue clothing and lots of other things. But thats £26,000 WE HAVE TO FIND EACH YEAR, just so the Team can exsist.

Fawksey as you know being Ex MR, MR is the only 999 services that the member has to pay to be a part of. I donate to the Team £100 per year, then on top of that I have my own vehicle costs to look after to attend training, incidents etc. I even have to pay to attend training courses, to get up the MR ladder, some courses cost peanuts other courses cost hundreds of pounds.

The general consensus of the MR community, including the top table, is that if we got funding, training courses can be part funded, those teams who struggle to get funding via the traditional means can get that new vehicle or equip each member with a radio etc. More importantly we would not be accountable to the Government, its a donation to do what we want.

Rant mode over.

Dave

In reply to djh: Maybe you are right, possibly right? Probably right? Maybe more right than I wish to agree with or want to be true

Yes the fire brigade does seem to resent anyone and everyone and thats because it is justifying its own existence and I believe when you say MR is "evolving" I think that it is moving into areas outside of its traditional areas so as to justify itself too

anyway, it isnt my ball anymore and its maybe unfair of me to continue to offer my opinion I just hope that whatever MR evolves into and however its funded it remains focused on whats best for the casualty

In reply to Fawksey:


110% agreement there.