UKC

Considering purchase of some higher performing shoes. It's a kind of reward for climbing smoother and better, although not necessarily harder yet. I've shortlisted Boreal Spider, Sportiva Katana, and 5.10 Anasazi VCS. I've tried all these on in the shop, worn them for a while, edged and smeared on them... It seems to eliminate deformation of the shoe on edging, the fit on these shoes has to be exceptionally tight. I accept some pain and discomfort will necessarily be involved, but my question is, how long will it take to properly break them in, so they're at least bearable? And should you be able to clearly see the knuckles of the toes poking up the leather??? And should a reward be painful lol

Thanks

In reply to Bimblefast:

I'd avoid pain in the trying on stage - if they hurt then think what they will be like at the end of a hard session when your feet have swelled up

In reply to es: Good point, I had thoughts on this so tried the shoes immediately after a session, in the shops attached to the climbing walls I use.

In reply to Bimblefast:

good thinking batman

(the other time your feet swell , i find, is when you go to spain and its hot)

In reply to es:

bit of an effort just to try on some shoes though eh :P

on a serious note make sure they're pretty snug but not cripplingly tight

it is a bit of a guess really as to how much they'll stretch but dont be too overambitious i'd say 'cause you'll just end up with a pair of rock boots you can't wear

In reply to es: lol looking to a cheap Majorcan/Spanish break this year, get some dws and sport in! Anyway, failing swollen feet, do you think I'm just going to have to grin (grimace) and bear it?

In reply to andrew sandercock: I approached with that attitude, that I'd rather have a shoe I can wear - but those sizes that were comfy deformed so much I found I could edge better on my current newbie shoes. The performance on tight shoes was miles better, but at a price...

In reply to Bimblefast:

It varies massively. There is no one answer. 5.10 suggested 40 pitches worth of climbing once upon a time. It's anyone's guess. If I wear them indoors, then it won't take long at all (they stay on for up to 4 hours at a time). If I save them for outdoors only, then they can take 6 months to become comfy. That is 6 months, of only putting them on for specific climbs, and only for a short time!

That's only 5.10 anyway. Sportiva for example, might take a little longer, but should last longer in the end.

In reply to withey:

P.S. It's worth it nowadays. I find that the 5.10 VCR fits my foot perfectly. I'd recommend you pick a shoe and stick with it. Eventually your foot will alter to fit it first time every time!

In reply to withey: Cool, so there's hope for me yet. I'm climbing about 3-4 times a week at the mo (indoors only, although I've had an open invite to accompany someone to the Roaches). Just persist then, and not worry about the red pressure spots on the backs of my toes?

In reply to Bimblefast: And should you be able to clearly see the knuckles of the toes poking up the leather


Yes.

In reply to Bimblefast:

Don't make the mistake of thinking tight shoes will make much of a difference, I did in the first place and kind of regret it. I don't know what grade your at but I think I could climb up to 6b+ indoor without any really tight shoes. On the other hand, don't get too sloppy ones.

I bought some that I can clearly see my knuckles on the top, and regret it I can hardly wear them!

Get some which are snug, and curl your toes a bit, but they shouldnt be so much they really hurt.

In reply to Bimblefast:

I'd recommend against using them indoors too often. Most shoes will stick on indoor holds pretty easily to be honest. Even slightly looser shoes. They won't stick quite as well (which makes it better training anyway), but your tight new shoes with crisp edges will soon become loose, and rounded, and whilst they'll be great for grit slopers, they'll start losing their outstanding edging abilities.

In reply to Reaver2k and Simon Lee: Seems opinion is divided! Just a thought - I'm a UK 9.0. My Boreal zephyr shoes are a 8.5 - they were uncomfortable at first, fine all day now after 4 months use. When I put on a performance shoe, I usually have to be looking at a UK 7.0 - 6.5 to eliminate deformation and roll on edging. Could that simply be because, as a relatively new climber, my feet will be weak? Should I just allow foot strength to build, and then get a performance shoe in the 'right' size i.e. nearer a 9.0?

To Reaver2k: I'm not under too may illusions about the actual increase in performance I'll get from these shoes, at the grades I climb. But I think I'm going to progress fast from this point: frankly I'm utterly hooked on climbing. Just wanted to reward a personal milestone, and reassure myself that it's not my equipment holding me back. I know that's maybe a bit materialistic but hey I like to shop

In reply to withey: This seems sound advice, tbh I'm not going to wear them overmuch, just on tough overhanging stuff. it's probably just a psychological boost but every little helps esp. for me lol

In reply to Bimblefast:

Rest assured that it is not your equipment holding you back. I had Zephyrs as my first shoe and soon wanted something else - maybe it's a desire not to be seen as a beginner with beginner's equipment. So I sympathise, but I'd recommend going for something intermediate. A step up from the Zephyrs but maybe not an ultra-performance shoe. For my foot shape, the 5.10 Galileo's fit the bill. They have most of the features of the Anasazi VCRs but (for my foot shape at least) are more comfy.

When I was in Bishop in October, my feet swelled from a transatlantic trip, followed by a transcontinental one, followed by Autumn being warm in the desert. I couldn't comfortably stay in either of the Galileos or Anasazi VCRs I had brought with me from the UK. Got a pair of 5.10 Moccasyms in a size up from normal. Not very technical, not very tight, still managed my first Bishop V4 in them (aka V5 in the UK). Still wear them here in the UK with normal sized feet again and they are great. Yes I wouldn't want to do too aggressive heel-hooks in them and yes I notice the difference going back to the other 5.10s, but I can get up a lot of stuff in the comfy shoes (Sharma managed Dreamcatcher in a pair as well, though maybe that wasn't too footwork intensive).

Sorry for the ramble, but IMO go for a compromise now, rather than something that makes you feel like a million dollars, but you can only stand wearing for 5 minutes. Something that lets you climb for longer is going to have more of a positive impact on your grades.

In reply to TRNovice: Sounds very sensible. If my mum climbed, that's probably what she'd tell me

In reply to Bimblefast:

Yes I am that old :-o

In reply to Bimblefast:


It toook about four months from when I bought my Anasazi verdes to when I could wear them for longer than a pitch and they stopped making me want to cry while walking off. But I didn't wear them loads over that period - only outdoors and only on non-smeary routes. After four months I could wear them for about 45 mins or so and they were absolutely perfect. Now they're really comfortable and soft and great smearing shoes but they're not very good for edging anymore. I'm not looking forward to getting a new pair of proper edging shoes and going through all that again!

I bought a second pair that were a touch larger than the first and I've not gotten on with them very well. I took them to the slate quarries and felt like my feet were rolling off the holds. But they're perfectly fine for everything except for precise edging, and they're a whole load more comfy than my old ones.

In reply to Bimblefast:

When taking advice on shoes etc, profiles are handy things. I know which of the two bits of advice above I would follow. (no offence meant, simply saying that experience counts for a lot).

I think that your knuckles should be bulging in a performance shoe. I also think they should be on the uncomfortable side of tight to start with as they will strecth (even my lined Boreal Spiders strectched to a comfy state after about 3 weeks). However, if they are painful in the shop, that is too tight or a poor fit.

unfortunately, trial and error is the best way to learn what is best and it can be expensive.

In reply to Bimblefast:

I would also add, that in support of Reaver2k, a well fitting pair of midgrade shoes would probably suit you better than a performance shoe if your profile grades are accurate. I wear red chilli spirits (admittedley, tightly) for most of my climbing up to E2/f7a/V5. They fit my foot well but are beginner/intermediate shoes.

In reply to Monk:

Just to clarify I buy boots to fit these days. At rest the knuckles will be visible in performance boots and press out when you stand on a hold. They will be tight in the shop and take me a session to wear in. Wearing boots round the house to break them in doesnt work very well - you need to sweat in them and stand on holds to do that effectively. Some boots stretch more than others but if you buy tight they will stretch more - obvious innit.

I currently have a pair of boots which I keep trying on when the last pair wear out but cant face the pain for more than 3 or 4 problems - they are too tight and I end up getting a new pair rather than perservering with them. I dont have a wide experience of boots - I nearly always buy anastazis. A begiinner might not have acquired the right pain threshold yet so their concept of tight or painful will probably differ from someone more experienced but I think the knuckle showing through the leather is a good indication that they are at least tight enough.

In reply to Bimblefast:

I have spiders and I'm a size 5 normally and wear a size 5 in my rock shoes - because they are lined they don't give much at all. The lacing system does give you a bit of play - as you can miss out the 'funny' loops to have them more comfey - or use them on one side to get 'ape foot' of both to get curl.

I think they strecth can depend on lining and if its leather or syntetic uppers

In reply to Bimblefast:

I agree with some of the other comments that an intermediate shoe might suit you better for the moment. A few additional considerations are:

Rubber - I found the soft rubber/thin profile meant that my first few pairs of anasazi's wore down very quickly. I was doing quite a lot of indoor mileage at the time, but this was also down to efficiency of my footwork.

Technical last - whilst I think it's rare for footwear to produce an immediate jump in performance, I do think it's a good idea for climbers to get used to the feel/abilities of a more technical shoe early on. The balance and precision do take a bit of getting used to and can encourage better use of the feet. That said, an intermediate shoe could also provide you with this experience. The curved sole of some of these shoes also takes some getting used to - i.e your foot will adjust to the shoe.

Foot shape - I could probably be accused of being a hypocrite here, as my feet have now become anasazi shaped after several years of use... Whether they were the right shoe for me at the start is another question. Admittedly, I don't wear them as tight as my first couple of pairs (the design changed a bit, but I now find that they fit best in my street size of 9.5). Whatever you're looking for from a shoe, it should cater to your foot shape as much as possible. A good store will be able to guide you, but it may be that none of the shoes you listed above are actually "right" for you. Limiting your choices to the most popular performance velcros on the market may not be the right idea - especially if you're looking to pick them up in a very tight sizing.

Sorry if this is another post which comes across like "your mum", but it's a bit of a myth that it's necessary to endure discomfort in order to get the most out of a shoe. Get something that gives you some extra confidence, encourages precise footwork and sticks, but it shouldn't be excruciatingly tight.

Hope you find the right pair and get good use out of them!

J

In reply to Monk and Simon Lee: So it seems my choice is between a tight pair which objectively speaking, my ability doesn't warrant, or a more comfy pair which would match my ability. It seems to be an obvious choice, but I already have some comfy shoes which I'm sure far outstrip my ability level. And they're exceptionally supportive (board-lasted) so they're probably not helping my feet to get much stronger. Is it not wise to get a shoe specifically for the stuff which I find most difficult (overhangs)?

In reply to TRNovice: Mum? Did you get the flowers?

In reply to Bimblefast:

Specific boots which allow you to toe down on overhanging rock will require a high degree of core/trunk/abdominal strength in the first place. At your grade precise performance boots are more likely to help you with edging on technical vertical type routes or problems with small footholds.

In reply to orge: Ah great, you provided answers to my question in the last-but-one post as I was writing, re. are performance shoes 'good' for strengthening and conditioning the feet. I'm going to continue to look, but honestly didn't feel 'right' in any of the intermediate shoes I tried. Just this morning I tried some other shoes including scarpa veloces; even sized small they felt sloppy and imprecise. I've picked up some Sportiva Katanas with a view to wearing them round the house and taking them back if I had problems. After an initial sizing issue before it seems I've got the right size and shape for my foot, and I can at least wear them without needing to cry... or wanting my mum Next step is to see if I can climb a little in them.

Thanks to everyone for all your helpful advice.

In reply to Bimblefast:

Not quite - I wouldn't get a stiff, board lasted shoe. These are great for long cold multipitch routes and beginners with week feet. I would go for an intermediate shoe (such as the Red Chilli Spirits etc) that is more flexible and less clumpy but doesn't have a radical shape.
And yes, a less stiff shoe will build up your foot strength to be able to effectively use more technical shoes more comfortably and use more power through your toes.

In answer to your final point though - I don't have one pair of shoes for everything. I have about 4 pairs! I have soft, snug shoes for smearing on grit, I have edgy shoes for limestone and small edges, I have a fairly large comfortable pair that I can wear with socks on big cold routes and I have a general snug pair that I use for a day at the wall/crag etc. I could get away with fewer than this though.

As you seem to already know though, there is actually a psychological advantage to having a pair of 'best' shoes. If you are trying a problem and almost getting it, maybe by a foot popping, changing into your best shoes can have a great effect.

In reply to Bimblefast: Going off your profile I don't think you should need a shoe that tight that you should be in pain. I climb up to english 6a tech in comfortable shoes. I have tried the tight shoe thing but found the discomfort unhelpful.

In reply to Bimblefast:
I wore out my first two pairs of intermediate shoes very quickly (because my footwork was crap), then had a horrendous experience with Red Chili Spirits stretching to about 1 size larger than I'd intended and have since tended towards quite tight shoes. I had 5.10 Galileos for a good 6 months and thought they were excellent shoes, virtually identical to Anasazis with a slightly different shape. I'm now on a brand-new pair of Katanas which I bought half a size below what I felt would be a comfortable shoe, hoping that they would stretch eventually.

On a side-note, Sportiva sizing is insane. My foot size is 10.5 and Katana 7.5's were perfect, currently using a 7. They're the exact same size as my 9.5 Galileos. Where's the logic in that?

Anyway, I'd just like to add that all shoes do eventually stretch and you will get used to it. If your feet fit in, you'll be able to use them eventually. As for the question of whether or not you should be investing in a pair of performance shoes: my answer is most definitely yes. While you won't notice the difference on easy routes, there's a very clear line between what intermediate shoes can't do that performance shoes can. And it's horribly annoying to be stuck on the wrong side of that line thinking "If only I'd spent 15 quid more on a good pair of shoes".

The upside of velcros is that while you're wearing them in you can pop them off quite easily and give your feet a rest between routes/problems. That's the main difference as I see it between lace-ups and velcros - you can afford to go that half-size smaller because you can quickly ease the pain of wearing them.

In reply to DvO:
I forgot to mention: save your old pair of shoes for DWS'ing. You don't want to get your main pair of shoes wet because it'll cause them to stretch quite a lot and is a serious hit to their longevity.

In reply to Bimblefast:

I never knew that you cared, bless.

In reply to Bimblefast:

Comfy (and photogenic) shoes getting me into all sorts of trouble...

http://77jenn.blogspot.com/2008/02/bishop-redux-by-peter_22.html

In reply to TRNovice:

And 5.10 Dragons in action: http://77jenn.blogspot.com/2008/02/v5.html

Now there's a comfortable pair of shoes! They get the job done though.

In reply to Jenn:

Yes but you like pain :-p

In reply to TRNovice:

I do actually... yes, I know I'm odd and maybe not pain per say, but I like feeling that I am giving something my absolute all, and that more times than not involves pain.

In reply to all: Cheers for all your help and advice folks. Took my shiny new katanas to my local wall today, got quite a lot done, just had to take them off between problems. On the wall, they feel great! I've noticed a few things they do differently; due mostly to their sensitivity but wow they feel super on edges, I can confidently 'frog' both feet off a really small foothold... Ok, ok, indulge me, I'm happy - despite the discomfort

In reply to Bimblefast:

I have the number of a good podiatrist.

In reply to TRNovice: lol that may be necessary... Aww thanks, Mum!

In reply to Bimblefast:

S'OK son.

In reply to Bimblefast:

Excellent. That is good to hear. Sounds like you have chosen well. I hope you carry on getting results.

In reply to Monk: Many thanks!