UKC

This is it. Had enough of UK (for now) so am hoping to be off to NZ before the end of the year. Hopefully Visa and Job shouldn't be a problem - have (or will have...) degree in engineering, although no actual work experience yet. I hear there's a skills shortage over there.

I was wondering if any of you lot have been/considered moving? I know virtually nothing of the place, other than nice scenery, sparcely populated (4m in a place bigger than UK, and 75% of those are on North Island!), good mountaineering, boating, climbing and beaches. First place which caught my eye was Nelson, on the North coast of South Island. Seems to be popular with Brits and other immigrants. Anyone been there?

I'd love to hear of anyone else's experiences and reflections on the move - regrets or otherwise.

Cheers!

SM

In reply to stone monkey:

there are a few threads on this - I think Duz Walker started the last one.

good luck - sounds exciting!

In reply to stone monkey: Only went travellng round NZ but Nelson was the place I'd settle if I was moving out. Feels positively cosmopolitan compared to the rest of the South Island but still small and friendly. Loads of excellent climbing around both islands but South was my favourite. Housing cheap people friendly teaching is in demand might you need to be more city based for engineeting??? If you had the inclination you could commute between islands but it's expensive by NZ standards and slow, maybe weekly? Good luck, I wish it was me!

In reply to stone monkey:
Mates out there now, I think he`s enjoying it but i don`t think the grass is as tasty as it looked from over the fence, but hey your young go and try it.

In reply to stone monkey:

Heya,
As a Kiwi, and Im sure there's others on UKC who'll chip in, I'd say in your line, Wellington and Auckland, maybe Christchurch would be the places to aim for as there's likely to be more engineering jobs there. CHCH has good climbing nearby, Wellington I think is the best of the cities, but it depends on what you want really.

I think like anywhere, there +/-'s, it is a really long way, you wont get to see family much etc., it has diff probs than England (though on balance I would say less).

Happy to help if I can answer qns about stuff.

In reply to broccoligirl: Cheers guys. Have read through some of the past posts on here, and I realise it's just slightly greener looking grass right now - the prospect of working 9-5 (or 8-6 as it seems to be) in some miserable office in a UK city just doesn't appeal. This is a compromise between a proper gap-year (which I can't afford) and full time work.

In general, what is the NZ work ethic like? It seems to me that in the UK people work far too hard, and have very little time to themselves - 4 or 5 weeks a year holiday horrifies me! (although I know it's 'the real world' as everyone keeps saying). Apart from USA I think British people work harder than anywhere else. I'm not a total lazy b*st*rd, I don't mind hard work, but holidays and short breaks are pretty important - right now I have plenty of time, but no money. It'd be a shame to have the money but no time.

I had mainly just been looking at South Island, because of the mountains and rivers (I love kayaking too), but I guess ultimately I'll see where I can work and go from there -Christchurch sounds good. There's an expo in London next month which hopefully should give some info and inspiration.

Cheers

SM

In reply to stone monkey:

South Island is the place to go for climbing/paddling, and would recommend Christchurch as a place to go for job/lifestyle - although you will still have to travel for rivertrips / climbing.

Also loads of other stuff around there - biking/surfing etc, albeit a few miles outside - Sumner is a nice (but expensive) town outside Christchurch to stay in.

NZ does have a work ethic, but they also have a strong "get outside and enjoy it" culture as well, you just need to adjust to their mentality.

Oh, and the weather in Christchurch may not be what you are used to - similar to East Coast of Scotand though.

Go and enjoy, give it 18 months and if you are not happy, not adapting them you can always come home - just give it long enough over there to get over the homesick, culture adjustment period etc.

All the best.

In reply to stone monkey:
Fantastic place but a surprising dearth of stone for monkeys to climb on, except in the Darrans whihere there is 400" rain per annum. Otherwise, i.e. alpinism, kayaking, ski touring etc , absolutely stunning!

In reply to stone monkey: Go to nz and you are in for a shock then. You will work hard with a capital H- much harder than here. It is nonsense to think the English work harder because they stay at work longer-productivity measures I'm afraid show your continental cousins in a much better light. The US is worse still. You will do the hours in any profession in NZ and there is no getting away from it. You just have to play hard to compensate.

In NZ you will be in a small company and everything you do will be obvious all of the time. (pressure) There will be no one to replace you when you are sick and you get less paid sick days than in the UK. You just do the work when you are back. You will do it on at least a percent less commission than you would in the UK if you are in construction (therefore with less back-up), and you will get less holiday. Statutory has just moved from 15 days to 20, although a lot of firms are making you take the extra at Christmas. What you will find though is a more progressive attitude to flexi-time , 4 day 40 hour weeks and so on. Lets you go Wednesday night racing (sailing) but that is about it.

Stay out of Auckland if you can and your salary will go further. There is no such rubbish as an Auckland (London) weighting in NZ. Auckland is just expensive and difficult to get around. Despite what others say though it is the best town, especially if you are in to water sports. If you like culture and cafes go to Wellington as government puts money into the national cultural institutions there. If you ski go to Christchurch or Dunedin. Don't know exactly what type of engineering you do but the towns of Tauranga, Rotorua and Hamilton are worth a look as well and will give you the more famous Kiwi lifestyle. Nelson is nice but you're not that likely to get a job there as an engineer.

There are a lot of very tired people in NZ, although they are starting to realise this. It is not all a bed of roses- if it was so many of us would not be over here. If you are starting a career though you will get to do much more much sooner up to the point that all the baby boomers get in the way.

Whatever you do and wherever you go there are pluses and minuses to the lifestyle. You just have to get on with it and maybe change what you do for fun. I haven't sailed in the UK as it looks like too much hassle, but I replaced it with climbing and now skiing and am really enjoying it here. Ya pays ya money and ya takes ya choices.

Just get out there and don't spend all your life in the one village, it's not good for your perspective on life.

cheers,

In reply to martin riddell:

Also agree with Martin. It rains a lot in NZ. Just harder for a shorter duration, and the south is Cold in winter although the Canterbury area gets hot and dry in summer.

He is also right that the culture is not quite as like here as you might think although we speak the same language.

you'll have fun though.

In reply to stone monkey:

Hmmm, might be a good idea to visit first before you up sticks......

Check out www.britishexpats.com/forum for the good and the bad.

In reply to jon_nz: The newspapers are varying degrees of dreadful (only one for most areas ie local papers only, not really national dailies like the UK), the TV makes the BBC license fee look like the best deal on earth, and the radio is nearly as bad (although National can be quite good and at least they don't rush the forecasts). Books and music are expensive, you'll earn less, and fuel is getting expensive too.

But...

The scenery is magnificent, the people mostly really friendly, the work ethic does indeed include playing hard, the ski-ing can be fabulous and the traffic negligible outside of Auckland (and possibly Wellington). The cost of living is still significantly less, the wine fantastic, the coffee superb, the huts splendid, and the mountains beautiful - if a little scary and serious. It's a great place.

Engineering wise don't forget Fischer & Paykel in Dunedin.

HTH

Ben B (off to Dunedin for the foreseeable future later this year)

In reply to Carnage: nah,
just go and live. Holidays tell you nothing about living in a place. If you are worried take a year open ended return ticket like I had when I arrived in Europe. Never used it.

Just went " I'm tired and fed up" and left for somewhere that spoke a different language. Didn't get a job there though and ended up here. If you are positive you'll be fine.

In reply to ben b:

and you seem to get to fly round in helicopters all the time... and apparently the fishing is very good... and apparently the weather's pretty good if you live in Wanaka - something to do with rainshadows...

or so says my bf who lives there and is a brit engineeringy sort.

In reply to CJD: yep,

the prevailing wind is from the South West and is bloody cold. It hits the Southern Alps, rises, precipitates on the Fiordland/West Coast area and the is descending dry air on the other side.
The tropical cyclones tail in from the North east and can be pretty interesting up north.

In reply to ben b: interesting. I found that music was cheaper in NZ when I left and when I visited last (CDs that is) Sheet music and books are a lot dearer in NZ.
My salary would be a direct conversion of pounds now if I went back, while when I left I was on what I am now paid in pounds.

Funny world eh.

In reply to jon_nz:

Depends on how you use yor trip. If you treat it like a holiday then I'd agree with you, but not if you really have a feel to see if its what you want.

In reply to jon_nz: I meant, when I left my salary in had the same numbers, just different signs in front.

In reply to Carnage: mmm..
maybe. I still favour the just turn up and see what happens approach, but then that is the one I used. I expect it depends on your personality and stage in life.

In reply to stone monkey:

My sister is a Civil Engineer - she has been working in Queenstown for the last year. She went to NZ spontaneously with only 6 months work experience and got a job easily. She likes the 'lifestyle' (skis or sails most evenings/weekends depending on the time of year), career freedom (she is given LOTS more responsibility than she would in the UK), friendly people, great mountains. She doesn't like being a long way from home (your friends aren't going to 'nip' over), a feeling that the rest of the world is carrying on a long way away (wars, politics etc), not much going on culturally (if this interests you), she doesn't feel any better off than living in Glasgow (though Queenstown is pricey).

In short, she's happy to have a blast for another year but she'll probably come back after that.

I've visited NZ a couple of times and, if I had to pick a city, it would definitely be Wellington.

(Incidentally, she has an engineer friend in Australia - they have an even bigger shortage apparently, and the pay's better.....)

In reply to RichardBennett:

(Incidentally, she has an engineer friend in Australia - they have an even bigger shortage apparently, and the pay's better.....)

If you like mountains, cold, snow, plenty of water etc go to NZ

If you like sun, not needing central heating, expensive housing, rock, beaches go to Oz.

Simple.

In reply to stone monkey:

Its a mixed bag.

Auckland: some degree of smog, rush hour traffic that makes Bangkok look not so bad, a somewhat dreary suburbia and a cityscape that is a little dull (relative to Europe). On the plus side it's a hell of a lot more striking and pleasant than the tube ride from Heathrow to central London

Wellington: only been there twice, but on a good day it is the best NZ has to offer. Much of the time it seems to be having a bad day weather-wise, in which case it'll resemble something akin to what we're about to go through this Monday. Windy as hell.

Christchurch: a lot of people rate it, but I have my doubts. Maybe because I'm used to the slightly more tropical and cosmopolitan nature of Auckland, Christchurch did nothing for me. But it is close to some outdoor pursuits. Windsurfing, surfing, skiing (water and snow) and gliding were all easily accessible for me, although Auckland has no climbing wall and climbing in general is largely either bouldering or alpine.

Nelson is becoming rated, but I suspect property prices are booming also.

Keep in mind, a lot of the distances are so large in NZ, that you are just as well off in the UK - fjords, mountains and the Med are probably just as accessible to a Londoner as the equivalent options are to a Kiwi in Auckland.

NZ isn't a bed of roses either. We have a surprising violent crime rate, a growing underclass and income inequality, and a population that has had it good for so long they have forgotten how lucky they are - and growing a bit narrow minded as a result. It has got all the crap you get over here, but just on a much smaller scale, and in general, in keeping with the size, everything is just a bit slower and a lot more personal. Expect good service, but also expect to work hard; the work ethic in NZ is demanding, and although you may do less overtime than here, time in the office is spent working, nothing else.

In reply to stone monkey: Don't go to Southland (bottom of South Island) - Hick central

In reply to jon_nz: I hope I've not come across as some work-shy lazy student looking for easy life in paradise...! Far from it. I'm just not quite ready to turn into my Dad, who is very much like me in many respects - also an engineer, but is out the house 7.30am - 7pm at work, and spends a lot of his weekends doing the boring house stuff that needs to be done. Yet he (like me) still has ambitions for big treks, canoe expeditions etc, but the responsibilities he has at work (and to the mortgage!) mean he can't just take a month unpaid for a trip somewhere. I guess this comes with having a family, but I know plenty of young folk like this too. I don't mind working hard; the work-hard play-hard attitude sounds good. Flexitime would make things sweeter.

As long as the people are welcoming and friendly and the facilities are there to be able to get out and about easily (roads and cars) then I think I'll go for it. Even if the work is more demanding than you think I want, I'm sure it will be a good experience in the long run.

David - It is a shame that you talk of dissatisfaction in the general community, crime, inequality and an underclass etc. That was part of what I dislike so much about the UK. I suppose it occurs everywhere to some degree.

In reply to stone monkey:

Well the inequality is reported but is nowhere near as visible and palpable as it is in the UK. On the whole New Zealand is a very egalitarian nation, only recently emerged from a small-scale and very even standard of living. So pockets of wealth and deprivation are growing, but it is NOTHING like the UK in that respect.

After 10 years here in the UK, the silent acceptance of extremes in life chances and opportunities that pervade England still shock me. NZ is run very differently, with a very different political system and approach to life. Despite being an old colony and part of the commonwealth, you'd be surprised at how different things are, and many first generation English immigrants still stick out from the general population as much as their counterparts in Benidorm do. In some ways I've found Dutch or Danish culture to be the most similar to what I was used to back home. Generally more immediately welcoming to strangers and less jaded, but underneath, still as human as anyone else, with the same predjudices etc.

Go and check it out. If you don't like it, Australia is nearby, East Asia for a spot of English teaching, or a quiet kick back in Fiji, Samoa, Tonga or Tahiti - all of them as accessible from New Zealand as Corfu is from England.

In reply to stone monkey:

Hallo

Lots above for you to think about, I'm currently sitting in an internet cafe in Dunedin, which reminds me of Manchester but without the tramps.

Just a couple of things to note, I have a friend who is an engineer here, she works 8 am until at least 9pm most days, her colleagues work longer hours and she is seen as a bit of a slacker as she goes walking at the weekends and doesn't go into the office.

It's now the beginning of march, and its raining and cold. I have 2 jumpers and a hat on. I got sleeted on yesterday. The last month or two have been fantastic weatherwise, but I'm told 'best summer for 40 years' by lots of people.

I spent the last 6 weeks living and working in fijordland in the moddile of the mountains. 6 weeks was fine, but any longer and I would have started to go a bit mad.

It's expensive. Well, more expensive than you'd think.

It's not bad and the scenery is nice, but it's not the promised land. And if you think there is a problem with caravans clogging up the roads of the UK, you haven't seen anything yet...

In reply to stone monkey:
no, just a warning not to get the wrong idea. What you are worrying about just comes from having a salaried job, house etc anywhere. Period.


I agree with the guy earlier who suggested the culture was more like some European countries. My picks were some of the bits of Germany I have been in (incidentally very close the countries suggested)

cheers

In reply to stone monkey: I think jon-nz's posts sum up the differences and similarities really well. There are good and bad things about anywhere. I'm from NZ and have lived in the UK for 6 years now - I grew up in provincial NZ which is very different from living in the cities. And I live in a small town in the UK, again very different from the cities.

Holiday time in NZ is less than the UK, and the benefits you get with some jobs in the UK are unheard of in NZ. And Jon (and others) are right - time at work in NZ is time spent working. But the beaches and the lifestyle and the people and the scenery are all worth it.

Yep, it rains in NZ, and it rains a lot in parts of the west coast. But the rain tends to pass over quickly - you don't get two weeks of mizzle (unless you're somewhere like Westport maybe?).

Just try it - go for a year, if you hate it you can always come back.

There is something very different about NZ and about the attitude than here (in my experiences) that is hard to explain and hard to identify exactly what it is. That is something you'd have to live there for a bit to understand and appreciate.

Really excellent points above - I've just spent 7 weeks travelling with the same perspective that I wanted to look at NZ with a view to emigrating. The summer weather has been fantastic on the S Island - one cold front which dropped some snow in Feb - and I had the opportunity to explore the wilder places of NZ.

My favourite place is Wanaka, it's where I'll be trying for (even though the prices there are higher than most of the S Island)- it has the mixture of atmosphere and setting for climbing, alpinism, mtb and water-sports. I don't see that there's any problem with going out and trying - there's always the return to the UK.

In reply to stone monkey: The work ethic is different too here.

Excersise was part of your day, my boss would stop meetings so we could go training.

It's a big move. I spent a year out there, but didn't enjoy the job as much as anything.

But thing slike contacting family do get to you, it's not just the distance but the time difference, means people aren't just on the end of the phone line.

Overall though I can think of worse places to be and can see myself moving back later in life.

Apart from the obvious 'Lonely Planet', have a look at 'Living and Working in New Zealand' because it contains lots of useful information about NZ. It can't replace a trip there or insight and advice from those who are there (I've got relo's who emigrated to Wanaka and they've been brilliant in helping us to see what NZ could offer, as well as the pro's and cons).

In reply to stone monkey:
Lived in Auckland and Christchuch and travelled all over the South Island.
Found Auckland to be pretty souless and not great.
Christchurch I found to have great cafes, good local music scene and an excellent location definately my favourite place. Good easy access to mountains and the coast. If you can get a Kiwi passport apply while you can, you dont loose your UK PPT. and the requirements may change.
I waited a year to apply whilst living out there and the system changed and no longer qualified, arse.
Only downside is its a long way to go to get to another country. If you don't like it you can always come back.

In reply to stone monkey:

The NZ immigration site is very good - lots of info on the different visa requirements, and the skills shortage lists. It also explains the points system, and gives you a (for my mind) a balanced view of what life is like - most of the points covered above in fact!

Have you thought about getting a working holiday visa (easiest option to get there and work)? Should you find something full time you can apply for a work visa whilst you're out there.

I would go in a second if I had the chance. Hubby should be sending his CV out as we type!

Anyone any idea of how expensive property is in NZ? What could you get for, say, US$500k-US$1m? A decent amount of land?

In reply to SARS: A lot.

We had a mortgage agreed for 300k in Wellington and that was getting us 2-3 bedroom detached house with a decent garden.

For 500+ you get a lot of house.

In reply to IainRUK:

Interesting. Thanks.

In reply to Dee:

Probably reasonable to read Joe Bennett's "Land of Two Halves" for some insight into the country. Pretty accurate description of kiwi life.

Cheers

Ben B

In reply to SARS: yet I could afford to buy a flat here (in Edgbaston) and not in Auckland.

btw. Auckland is not soul-less, the soul is just liquid not solid. And you have to pay.
Auckland= commercial
Wellington= bureaucrat (govt and head office private types)
Christchurch=??!!RRB maybe?

I won't carry on before I offend some of my southern brethren, although if I did happen to go back I would be looking there as well.

In reply to stone monkey:

On a slight hijack - are there any areas people would recommend within commuting distance of Auckland? And is it easy to commute via public transport?

Thanks, Jen.

In reply to jeni222uk: public what?

Easy, commute and Auckland do not belong in the same sentence. I used to live in Howick, a nice sea side SUBURB of Auckland and caught the 7.00am bus to start work in the city at 8.30. I could ride the same distance to Varsity in 45-50min on my bike.

what you want is something on the train line, but I left before they re did it.

In reply to stone monkey:

soooo long suckah!

In reply to stone monkey:

I presume you are under 30, you can get a 12 month work visa very easily, why don't you go out for 12 months and give it a try.

My brother has gone out in the last month, he is 29 and 7 months, so his last chance to get the 12 month work visa. He is doing a combination of working and travelling.

In reply to The New NickB: Yeah I'm 21, so working holiday visa should be fine. 12 months was the plan, will see how it goes from there.

In reply to stone monkey:

And everyone is friendly there, see even the dolphons are freindly: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7291501.stm

In reply to stone monkey:

Join the army. Loads of time off, get some qualifications under your belt and they'll pay you to go off and do some of your ambitious adventures and it'll count as work.

Again, certainly not the promised land and you have to spend 6 months at least away pretty much every year but it can be a good crack for a few years.

In reply to stone monkey: go for it, nz is one of the most beautiful countries in the world, outdoor adventure abounds, there is a noticable skills shortage with very low levels of unemployment so although wages will be lower then UK its not hard to find work

if your a climber then go to the south island, its got the lot..christchurch has a large and active climbing/skiing/mountain biking/etc etc community and is only 1 hour from castle hill which is one of the best bouldering areas in the world

nelson is a smallish centre, nice but relatively quiet, very handy for tramping, caving, sailing, fishing, mtn biking, hunting etc and about an hour and a half to paynes ford which is a good limestone climbing area

wanaka and queenstown are small centers with very good skiing.climbing etc on your doorstep and stunning scenery

housing is realatively cheap as are second hand cars, food and booze, fuels pricey

most centers have climbing walls and those and the nz alpine club are good places to start sorting partners

its small enough to get around easily (get a car or van) but big enough you can always find some peace and quiet

its bizzre reading some of the posts from those bemoaning the differences between Uk and Nz, i kind of think the differences are the whole point arent they?

you'll love the place

good luck

In reply to Carnage:

Housing in NZ is expensive, food has shot up due to export demand too. You would make much more in Oz. As an engineer I would consider the Queenstown area too, expensive but shit my mates are putting up 6 pitch routes in th upper Wye crrek right now !! And mixed climbing, skiing , mtb, fishing, not far from the Darrans...

In reply to nz Cragrat: hey craggy yep housings shot up, but it isnt as expensive as Uk and theres a downturn going on in the real estate market and foods more expensive here in oz

6p routes in the wye...yehaa

In reply to edn:

Not according to a client I have at present who lives near Byron Bay... Yeah Sal, Aaron, Tony Burnell are beavering away up there and there is a cool rock biv