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Most of the routes from the new Lofoten guide are up on the RockFax database now for commenting. The rest should be up this evening.
http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_area.html?id=1007
As well as the usual comments the inclusion of a suggested UK grade for the routes would be a great help.
Cheers
Chris
http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_area.html?id=1007
As well as the usual comments the inclusion of a suggested UK grade for the routes would be a great help.
Cheers
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I already emailed Alan about this, but a UK grade equivalent would be more than a little useful !
I already emailed Alan about this, but a UK grade equivalent would be more than a little useful !
In reply to GrahamD:
Agreed, all I can find anywhere on the Rockfax site is a brief sentence saying that many of the routes have UK trad grades. But I can't find any evidence of this, nor any grade conversion table!
Agreed, all I can find anywhere on the Rockfax site is a brief sentence saying that many of the routes have UK trad grades. But I can't find any evidence of this, nor any grade conversion table!
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Is it me, or are there some teething troubles with 'numbers of routes'?
jcm
Is it me, or are there some teething troubles with 'numbers of routes'?
jcm
In reply to GrahamD: agreed. uk grades are meaningful, whereas whatever these grades are, they are not!
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Some sort of grade comparison would be really useful, other than that it looks good. Can't wait to see the book, I feel a trip coming on!
Some sort of grade comparison would be really useful, other than that it looks good. Can't wait to see the book, I feel a trip coming on!
In reply to martin k:
That's a very shortsighted view. Perhaps the grades are meaningful to those that have grown up with them and are used to them.
What would be useful is a grade conversion chart...a bit like this one, hmm?
http://www.rockfax.com/publications/grades.html
> uk grades are meaningful, whereas whatever these grades are, they are not!
That's a very shortsighted view. Perhaps the grades are meaningful to those that have grown up with them and are used to them.
What would be useful is a grade conversion chart...a bit like this one, hmm?
http://www.rockfax.com/publications/grades.html
In reply to Alun:
That rather depends to whom you are trying to sell the guidebook. I'm guessing that its predominantly UK climbers. Also, the conversion chart there doesn't have Norwegian grades, except to say:
"The system used in Norway is possibly the least revealing grading system. The same grade is given for both trad and sport routes and the grade bands are wide hence there can be a lot of variation within the same grade."
Crap, in other words.
That rather depends to whom you are trying to sell the guidebook. I'm guessing that its predominantly UK climbers. Also, the conversion chart there doesn't have Norwegian grades, except to say:
"The system used in Norway is possibly the least revealing grading system. The same grade is given for both trad and sport routes and the grade bands are wide hence there can be a lot of variation within the same grade."
Crap, in other words.
In reply to GrahamD:
I thought the table (picture bit) was pretty useful, it gives you an idea of what grades you might be able to give a go. Most grading is subjective, if it gives you an idea of what you might be capable of then I'd say it's helpful.
> (In reply to Alun)
>
>
> Crap, in other words.
>
>
> Crap, in other words.
I thought the table (picture bit) was pretty useful, it gives you an idea of what grades you might be able to give a go. Most grading is subjective, if it gives you an idea of what you might be capable of then I'd say it's helpful.
In reply to GrahamD:
I updated the grade tables this morning. You may still be looking at old cached versions. Refresh your page to see the new ones, or download the PDFs. The most accurate one is probably this one - http://www.rockfax.com/publications/pdfs/trad_grade_bold.pdf
Cheers
Alan
I updated the grade tables this morning. You may still be looking at old cached versions. Refresh your page to see the new ones, or download the PDFs. The most accurate one is probably this one - http://www.rockfax.com/publications/pdfs/trad_grade_bold.pdf
Cheers
Alan
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Should now be sorted, although refreshing or waiting for 30 minutes might be necessary. (I can never work it out wit this one).
Alan
> Is it me, or are there some teething troubles with 'numbers of routes'?
Should now be sorted, although refreshing or waiting for 30 minutes might be necessary. (I can never work it out wit this one).
Alan
In reply to Toreador:
Can you let me know the URL. I thought I'd got rid of these references.
Cheers
Alan
> Agreed, all I can find anywhere on the Rockfax site is a brief sentence saying that many of the routes have UK trad grades.
Can you let me know the URL. I thought I'd got rid of these references.
Cheers
Alan
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
You have, but you hadn't when I last looked yesterday and I was still seeing that cached version
> I thought I'd got rid of these references.
You have, but you hadn't when I last looked yesterday and I was still seeing that cached version
In reply to GrahamD:
Not really. One third of the print run is being shipped straight to Norway as soon as we publish. Lofoten is a multi-national climbing area and this is the only guidebook now.
We discussed this whole issue a lot when preparing the guide and decided that we really couldn't afford to go for UK trad grades. Hopefully over we will be able to come up with some comparison grades, and we may well include some in the new guide for the top routes. However, the majority of the climbs were graded with Norwegian grades and many have never been repeated by UK climbers. With the wide Norwegian grade range, we couldn't just guess that grades, so we decided to go with the local grades.
This is also what the (extremely helpful) local climbers wanted us to do.
Alan
> That rather depends to whom you are trying to sell the guidebook. I'm guessing that its predominantly UK climbers.
Not really. One third of the print run is being shipped straight to Norway as soon as we publish. Lofoten is a multi-national climbing area and this is the only guidebook now.
We discussed this whole issue a lot when preparing the guide and decided that we really couldn't afford to go for UK trad grades. Hopefully over we will be able to come up with some comparison grades, and we may well include some in the new guide for the top routes. However, the majority of the climbs were graded with Norwegian grades and many have never been repeated by UK climbers. With the wide Norwegian grade range, we couldn't just guess that grades, so we decided to go with the local grades.
This is also what the (extremely helpful) local climbers wanted us to do.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
OK, that's a lot better, thanks, Alan. I'm curious as to why you moved away from the UK grades used in the mini guide, though, unless you thought your main market was Norwegian or unless the grades haven't been checked by a UK based climber ?
I liked the UK grades in the mini guide as they worked well to clarify the grades in the local (Webster) guide.
Why the downgrade shift with the colour code by the way ?
OK, that's a lot better, thanks, Alan. I'm curious as to why you moved away from the UK grades used in the mini guide, though, unless you thought your main market was Norwegian or unless the grades haven't been checked by a UK based climber ?
I liked the UK grades in the mini guide as they worked well to clarify the grades in the local (Webster) guide.
Why the downgrade shift with the colour code by the way ?
In reply to Chris Craggs:
The Norwegian system is an open-ended one, a single grade 4+,5-,5,5+,6-,6 etc that indicates the overall grade of the route. The bands are quite wide thought the system is far from 'crap'.
Norwegian sport routes use the same system with the addition of a couple of rather clumsy half-grades (e.g. 8+/9-) to fill the gaps when attempting to matching the French system.
We won't be using UK Grades in the book, but I thought a few comparisons for popular routes might help folks get a handle on the system.
Chris
The Norwegian system is an open-ended one, a single grade 4+,5-,5,5+,6-,6 etc that indicates the overall grade of the route. The bands are quite wide thought the system is far from 'crap'.
Norwegian sport routes use the same system with the addition of a couple of rather clumsy half-grades (e.g. 8+/9-) to fill the gaps when attempting to matching the French system.
We won't be using UK Grades in the book, but I thought a few comparisons for popular routes might help folks get a handle on the system.
Chris
In reply to Alun: hi alun, i disagree...the norwegian grades seem to be a mystery even to some norwegian climbers that i spoke to a couple of years ago, so a bit of clarity is essential, rather than "shortsighted".
when i climbed there, the uk grades made far more sense, as norwegian grades don't do much for boldness. e.g. "american tourist" on reine slabs (http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=27288) is a very bold offering that should certainly get E2 5a/b, but gets only 5+ in the guide, equating to HVS 4b which is clearly daft! (let's not mention the inadequate belays)
this sort of incongruity needs to be addressed, as it could get people into very serious situations.
cheerio!
when i climbed there, the uk grades made far more sense, as norwegian grades don't do much for boldness. e.g. "american tourist" on reine slabs (http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=27288) is a very bold offering that should certainly get E2 5a/b, but gets only 5+ in the guide, equating to HVS 4b which is clearly daft! (let's not mention the inadequate belays)
this sort of incongruity needs to be addressed, as it could get people into very serious situations.
cheerio!
In reply to GrahamD:
Well its easy enough to give UK Grades to the routes we have done - but for the rest it would be pure guesswork, a bit silly and potentially dangerous!
Chris
> (In reply to Alan James - UKC)
>
> I'm curious as to why you moved away from the UK grades used in the mini guide, though, unless you thought your main market was Norwegian or unless the grades haven't been checked by a UK based climber ?
>
>
> I'm curious as to why you moved away from the UK grades used in the mini guide, though, unless you thought your main market was Norwegian or unless the grades haven't been checked by a UK based climber ?
>
Well its easy enough to give UK Grades to the routes we have done - but for the rest it would be pure guesswork, a bit silly and potentially dangerous!
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
So what is next in the pipe line for rockfax, im sure the new Lofoten guide is still keeping you very busy but guessing you have your eyes on something after?
I think a new easy to read and follow pembroke guide would go down well!!
So what is next in the pipe line for rockfax, im sure the new Lofoten guide is still keeping you very busy but guessing you have your eyes on something after?
I think a new easy to read and follow pembroke guide would go down well!!
In reply to Chris Craggs:
It makes sense if this is the local 'definitive guide' - I hadn't appreciated that the Webster guide was no longer available.
It makes sense if this is the local 'definitive guide' - I hadn't appreciated that the Webster guide was no longer available.
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
Fair enough, then, although to my parochial eyes it makes the guide much less useful. Given the mixture of perfectly protected routes and nightmare run outs, the UK system works really well.
> This is also what the (extremely helpful) local climbers wanted us to do.
Fair enough, then, although to my parochial eyes it makes the guide much less useful. Given the mixture of perfectly protected routes and nightmare run outs, the UK system works really well.
In reply to monkey man:
The wheel turns full circle - I will be on with Western Grit again as soon as Lofoten is published.
Already in the pipeline I believe though nothing to do with me.
Chris
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
> So what is next in the pipe line for rockfax, im sure the new Lofoten guide is still keeping you very busy but guessing you have your eyes on something after?
>
>
> So what is next in the pipe line for rockfax, im sure the new Lofoten guide is still keeping you very busy but guessing you have your eyes on something after?
>
The wheel turns full circle - I will be on with Western Grit again as soon as Lofoten is published.
> I think a new easy to read and follow pembroke guide would go down well!!
Already in the pipeline I believe though nothing to do with me.
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Great, will look forward to those. keep up the good work!!
Great, will look forward to those. keep up the good work!!
In reply to GrahamD:
We will obviously give pointers wherever possible, though to be quite honest it is usually pretty obvious when you are setting off up a blank slab as opposed to a jamming crack!
Chris
>
> Fair enough, then, although to my parochial eyes it makes the guide much less useful. Given the mixture of perfectly protected routes and nightmare run outs, the UK system works really well.
> Fair enough, then, although to my parochial eyes it makes the guide much less useful. Given the mixture of perfectly protected routes and nightmare run outs, the UK system works really well.
We will obviously give pointers wherever possible, though to be quite honest it is usually pretty obvious when you are setting off up a blank slab as opposed to a jamming crack!
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs: Chris are any of the cliffs from the Kalle side covered? I couldn't see Sparrow/Hummingbird cliff in the database. Or Mosquito and Rum and Cola etc?
On the grades - I don't really get the problem, just use a conversion chart. When I first went there with just the Webster guide we had two systems of grades given, Norwegian and Yosemite Decimal - neither of which meant anything to us really!
On the grades - I don't really get the problem, just use a conversion chart. When I first went there with just the Webster guide we had two systems of grades given, Norwegian and Yosemite Decimal - neither of which meant anything to us really!
In reply to GrahamD:
The text normally tells you all you need to know doesn't it?
> Given the mixture of perfectly protected routes and nightmare run outs, the UK system works really well.
The text normally tells you all you need to know doesn't it?
In reply to TobyA:
Yes - they are in, I will be uploading those this evening.
Chris
> (In reply to Chris Craggs) Chris are any of the cliffs from the Kalle side covered? I couldn't see Sparrow/Hummingbird cliff in the database. Or Mosquito and Rum and Cola etc?
>
>
Yes - they are in, I will be uploading those this evening.
Chris
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
Alan, I'm very glad you are doing this, it's good for all the reasons you mention.
In reply to Martin:
I accept your points and I don't doubt your (or anybody elses) experiences with Norwegian grades, and how UK grades may well make more sense. However, as Alan points out, it is a little bit rich (and, dare I say, could even be viewed a little bit "colonialist"!) to go around using the UK grading system, when maybe no Britains have even climbed the route to give an informed opinion, still less a consensus.
> However, the majority of the climbs were graded with Norwegian grades and many have never been repeated by UK climbers. With the wide Norwegian grade range, we couldn't just guess that grades, so we decided to go with the local grades.
Alan, I'm very glad you are doing this, it's good for all the reasons you mention.
In reply to Martin:
I accept your points and I don't doubt your (or anybody elses) experiences with Norwegian grades, and how UK grades may well make more sense. However, as Alan points out, it is a little bit rich (and, dare I say, could even be viewed a little bit "colonialist"!) to go around using the UK grading system, when maybe no Britains have even climbed the route to give an informed opinion, still less a consensus.
In reply to Chris Craggs: Great. Even the Ape on Kalle beach? I thought that was very over graded - it would be HS 4c or something in Yorkshire!
In reply to TobyA:
Hard core - we thought HVS 5b!
Chris
> (In reply to Chris Craggs) Great. Even the Ape on Kalle beach? I thought that was very over graded - it would be HS 4c or something in Yorkshire!
Hard core - we thought HVS 5b!
Chris
In reply to TobyA:
It could do that very succinctly in 4 symbols. E25b for instance I understand why it has to be as it is but there is no getting round the fact that it makes it a bit less useful as a guide for a visiting UK climber.
> The text normally tells you all you need to know doesn't it?
It could do that very succinctly in 4 symbols. E25b for instance I understand why it has to be as it is but there is no getting round the fact that it makes it a bit less useful as a guide for a visiting UK climber.
In reply to GrahamD:
What about a 5+ and a fluttery
heart symbol? That uses only three to give you the same info?
Chris
What about a 5+ and a fluttery
heart symbol? That uses only three to give you the same info?
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Fluttery hearts are only for extreme prang potential, aren't they ? in any case there is the difficulty in knowing how the 5+ is weighted as it were - is it akin to an adjectiveal grade taking everything into account or is it akin to a sports grade and only concerned with the climbing difficulty ? as I say, I'm sure for those versed in Norwegian the information is all there - its just not all there for me as a very occasionally visiting parochial Brit.
Fluttery hearts are only for extreme prang potential, aren't they ? in any case there is the difficulty in knowing how the 5+ is weighted as it were - is it akin to an adjectiveal grade taking everything into account or is it akin to a sports grade and only concerned with the climbing difficulty ? as I say, I'm sure for those versed in Norwegian the information is all there - its just not all there for me as a very occasionally visiting parochial Brit.
In reply to TobyA:
Hmmm. If that's how you make Hard Severe's look I'd hate to see you on a VS ...
> (In reply to Chris Craggs) Great. Even the Ape on Kalle beach? I thought that was very over graded - it would be HS 4c or something in Yorkshire!
Hmmm. If that's how you make Hard Severe's look I'd hate to see you on a VS ...
In reply to TobyA:
Speak for yourself! I think YDS is perfect for trad granite (even if Webster was a little overgenerous with grades in his book). I'm sorry Rockfax hasn't used YDS for this guide.
> On the grades - I don't really get the problem, just use a conversion chart. When I first went there with just the Webster guide we had two systems of grades given, Norwegian and Yosemite Decimal - neither of which meant anything to us really!
Speak for yourself! I think YDS is perfect for trad granite (even if Webster was a little overgenerous with grades in his book). I'm sorry Rockfax hasn't used YDS for this guide.
In reply to tobyfk: I was just mugging for camera and to make the Tonis feel better when they fell off.
When I went back on it a couple of years later - I was cruising it, my party piece by then.
The YDS is good if you've climbed a lot with it of course, but I haven't. I could give all the Lofoten routes Finnish grades, but that really isn't going to help anyone - well except for the Finns I guess!
When I went back on it a couple of years later - I was cruising it, my party piece by then.
The YDS is good if you've climbed a lot with it of course, but I haven't. I could give all the Lofoten routes Finnish grades, but that really isn't going to help anyone - well except for the Finns I guess!
In reply to tobyfk: Oh yeah - my first trip to Lofoten wasn't with you, I'd been a few years previous and none of us on THAT trip knew the US system.
In reply to tobyfk:
Well we aren't using YDS, UK or French - we are using Norwegian!
Chris
> I'm sorry Rockfax hasn't used YDS for this guide.
Well we aren't using YDS, UK or French - we are using Norwegian!
Chris
In reply to GrahamD:
Yes the Webster guide is pretty much sold out now - this will be the 'new' definitive. I think there are about three times as many routes in it!
New crags added to the Database
Paradise (described in deatail for the 1st time)
http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_crag.html?id=492
Mighty Vågakallen
http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_crag.html?id=493
Øvredalen
http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_crag.html?id=494
More to follow.
Chris
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
> It makes sense if this is the local 'definitive guide' - I hadn't appreciated that the Webster guide was no longer available.
>
> It makes sense if this is the local 'definitive guide' - I hadn't appreciated that the Webster guide was no longer available.
Yes the Webster guide is pretty much sold out now - this will be the 'new' definitive. I think there are about three times as many routes in it!
New crags added to the Database
Paradise (described in deatail for the 1st time)
http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_crag.html?id=492
Mighty Vågakallen
http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_crag.html?id=493
Øvredalen
http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_crag.html?id=494
More to follow.
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
No routes in the database for Paradise?
Out of interest, is the arete right of the Doseth Crack in the guide? It was listed as a toprope problem in Websters guide. I led it in 2002 and claimed in the Henningsvær cafe new routes book .. though I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't the first.
No routes in the database for Paradise?
Out of interest, is the arete right of the Doseth Crack in the guide? It was listed as a toprope problem in Websters guide. I led it in 2002 and claimed in the Henningsvær cafe new routes book .. though I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't the first.
In reply to tobyfk:
The Paradise routes are now all in there:
http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_crag.html?id=492
The route you mention Gelbe kante is here
http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=27860
Thanks for the feedback.
Chris
The Paradise routes are now all in there:
http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_crag.html?id=492
The route you mention Gelbe kante is here
http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=27860
Thanks for the feedback.
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
All in there now - 374 routes to comment on. Nice freebie download (Djupfjord) over on Rockfax.
Chris
All in there now - 374 routes to comment on. Nice freebie download (Djupfjord) over on Rockfax.
Chris
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