UKC

This has been brought into focus by the opening of a new bouldering wall
near me which is, for me a huge improvement over the existing alternatives because it's got a good spread of grades. However there seems to be a chorus of complaint building that more easy stuff is needed.

All the existing walls are so focussed on catering to beginners, children & casual climbers that I find little there that I can or want to do.

Am I being elitist or just selfish in wanting one (of the many available walls in the area) to cater to those at my level.

I find it ridiculous that I'm thinking like this cos I'm a mid-grade & middle aged (& thats being kind) punter.

In reply to i.munro:

the wall you are referring to had plenty to go at from V2-V5 which i would class as the average end of the spectrum and therefore suits me!

In reply to i.munro:

Its nothing to do with elitism. Its a business and the wall can pitch it at whatever market segment they wish. It doesn't have an obligation to anyone to cater for any particular segment - although it might make good business sense to do so.

In reply to i.munro:

I think unless you've got a huge bouldeing area, there's always going to be some people left dissapointed. But one thing I have noticed recently is that a lot of people climbthe set boulder problems, and then complain there is nothing else they can do. Why don't they make there own routes with the holds available?

In reply to i.munro:

what is 'your level'?

(n.b. as has been said, it's a business - your market segment probably isn't big enough to support it's own facility - if you are that keen why don't you set up a London 'School Room'?)

In reply to GrahamD:

I realise that, in the end, the wall owners will do whatever's profitable.
I'm just hoping there are enough 'average ability' climbers to mean that I get what I want.

The thing is I feel a bit bad about hoping that the 'below average ability' go elsewhere (although they have a big choice of elsewheres)
& that's my question. Should I feel bad?

In reply to i.munro:


No. You can feel lucky that there is a choice of venues in your vicinity !

In reply to GrahamD:

Choice of walls but not much choice in the way of climbing.
Think I'd swap for the other way round.

In reply to i.munro: it's an odd one - if you go to a 'bouldering wall' somewhere like switzerland, france, italy etc. you will find them to be generally very overhanging, very low & extremely hard. Much more than the usual level in UK walls I have seen. I remember my first ever indoor session at a wall in switzerland years ago, maybe stringing together 5-10 moves over the whole evening?? At that wall they had all levels as well, just doing what they could out there & enjoying themselves.
Then again, maybe this is why they are all silly strong? :-p

Myself, i remember thinking that it was very cool to see something that was very tough & offering an experience not immediately available to everyone on the spot.

I don't think you're being selfish, nor elitist. You're not demanding beginners be excluded, just that they have to invest some time & effort into enjoying the same thing as you.
f

In reply to i.munro: I don't think you're being elitist...I have the same problem at my wall but I spoke to the manager and he allowed me to place grips on a training wall to make things more difficult and that has helped tremendously!

I don't think your being elitist, however I guess that the Climbing Gyms have to cater for the majority of their clientèle for economic reasons. I should think that at least half the income of the standard wall is made from one-time or novice visitors.

In reply to i.munro:
Crikey, don't these people know it's supposed to be hard? (Hello Ian!) Is it the sort of wall you can improvise on features? Only a problem if they put too many of their nasty 'jugs' in the way of your marginal smears in that case. They do their thing on colour-coded circuits, you float to the float to the top on nothing-holds and quickly gain a reputation for awesomeness. Win win.

In reply to milkmandan:

Not even nearly half. I should think that the greater majority of income (at least of the bigger, better walls is from returning customers.
Obviously I can only speak with authority on one wall but I suspect others are not that different.

In reply to IainWhitehouse:

Is it possible then, at least 'darn sarf', that the income from schools/one-time visitors is the difference between breaking even & making a profit because a lot of effort, time & space seems to go into catering for them.

In reply to i.munro: Possible. I know less about he doings of walls darn sarf than those closer to home.
As I said, I only know the goings on at one wall well and I don't believe it is 'average' in terms of customer make-up. Perhaps the customer base at other walls is more different than I realise.
Iain

In reply to IainWhitehouse:

Of course what I forgot was that 2 out of the big 4 walls in London are run as charities which presumably means it's not just their users they have to keep happy.

In reply to i.munro:

If this happens then the arch will no longer be niche enough for me and i just wont bother going as i might as well be at the castle if i want to be submerged under a sea of halfwits flailing on 4as.

There you go - i'll take away all the assumed responsibility on your part for the elitism and neatly shift onto my shoulders so you can deal with the real issue at hand sensibly and in a delicate manner...

In reply to Wilbur:

Is the new wall any good then? In, say, the V2-V5 sort of range, since this is after all a discussion about wall suitability by grade........?

Its proximity to Waterloo and my frequent need to commute through Waterloo to get to and from London and Cambridge means if its good it might supplant Mile End, which whilst a good wall is a bit out of the way for the Salisbury-Cambridge trip.........

AJM

In reply to AJM:

Yes - it is seriously good in this range. Lots of problems of all angles all very well set.

In reply to Wilbur:

I popped my head in there the other day - I can't wait to try it out!

Now if only my shoulder would heal (grr...).

-----------

As for the OP, I don't think a lot of people get bouldering.

It's not meant to be easy mini routes, if so what would be the point? It's meant to be hard. It's meant to be doing moves at your limit.

In reply to Jenn:

it's ace - you'll love it

i've just fooked my elbow so i'm back in the bloody 'injury club'!!

In reply to Jenn:

The trouble for me is that a V0 problem IS at my limit!!! ha ha ha!!! And I also like something to warm up on and cool down on! I am seriously weak and always have been, but at the wall I enjoy bouldering so much more than doing routes. I like trying to work out the weak person's way to manage a problem, and I like keeping on trying on a problem until I finally get it (or don't).

...but what is the problem with having a range of problems? Presumably, the actual steepness of the bouldering wall isn't going to change? It is just the holds on it that will vary? So you can have a mixture of holds? I don't have any objection to there being harder problems on any bouldering wall, and I am fine with making up my own problems (get up the wall using every hold available, usually!!! ha ha ha!!!)

In reply to Wilbur:

Really - sorry to hear! That sucks. Still going away at the weekend? We might be joining you.

In reply to Wilbur:

Cool. I might have to take a look.

Although £10 for a peak session is fairly steep. Open until 10pm on a Sunday evening has potential for if I'm up in Cambridge for a weekend though - any idea when the exact peak hours are going to be, it doesn't seem to say............?

AJM

In reply to Jenn:

yeah - down to portland - come along!

In reply to AJM:

if you have bmc card it's £8.50...

not sure when peak is exactly i'm afraid - maybe after 4pm?

In reply to tlm:

Well I've not actually climbed at the wall in question, just had a look around, so I really can't comment for sure, but I believe there are a few problems around the V0 level, just not the majority? Also, most of the walls looked steep with a few being vertical and one slab.

I fully agree, you do need to warm up and hopefully they have a few problems to do this on, but after that I don't see the point of having tons of easy stuff.

One of the problems at the Castle (a wall with lots of easier stuff) is that it attracts complete novices who adhere to no rules whatsoever. For example, they have 5 goes at one problem in a row and don't let anyone else try it (huge pet peeve!). They also act generally goofy. I had to wait to finish a problem while a girl posed (on a UK 4a) problem while her mate took her picture for Facebook (I wasn't amused). The Castle doesn't exactly help the situation either. They often set problems that cross over each other. I've seen it happen so many times where one person sets off on a problem and can't finish it because someone is taking ages on another problem that intersects it.

Also, from a training point of view, the Castle doesn't have enough problems that are UK 5c and above. I would like to see more problems in that range.

In reply to Wilbur:

Cool, looks likely, but I can't make it until Sat as the b/f is in the US.

In reply to Jenn:

As we seem to be discussing one wall in particular (which wasn't my intention just that it opening brought the issue into focus for me)
they do have a range of V0 problems set, at least as many as at any other grade & probably more. They also have some easier & longer circuits set for warming up. In addition you can, as somebody said add extra holds into any problem making it possible to climb or traverse almost anywhere at about V0-ish.

My problem with adding more easy routes, particularly to steep walls is that it generally involves huge groin & knee threatening hooks & spikes which can make the harder problems less fun.

In reply to i.munro: Feeling bad is a waste of emotion. Thats how you feel, so be it.

In reply to i.munro:

Hmm, yes, I think I know what you mean. Having huge jugs on a wall makes problems more difficult when they get in the way - I've definitely had that happen a few times.

In reply to Jenn:
>I believe there are a few problems around the V0 level, just not the majority? Also, most of the walls looked steep with a few being vertical and one slab.

Well then - that just sounds quite normal, doesn't it? I would assume that most people would want most of the bouldering to be steep - otherwise what good is it going to do you? If a weekling like me wants mainly steep stuff, then it must be normal! ha ha!


Absolutely!


The whole fun is talking to random strangers and taking turns to try to solve a problem and giving one another hints and tips where wanted! Bouldering is for being sociable and making new friends! (or am I just a stalker?)


Ooo! Just like when you are finally about to complete some really hard, long problem, and someone is in your way, and you keep on hanging on, and they are taking AGES!!! AGGGHHHH!!! So you jump off, and then so do they! AGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!


Yeah - a good mix means having harder problems, as well as easier ones.

In reply to Jenn:

On complete novices at the Castle not adhering to rules. I'm not a novice but I do take my son there (who is) and not sure if this is quite fair. I think new climbers fall off, look around to see if anyone can help, have another go, get pumped and then walk off.

Actually, I'd say it may be the stronger climbers who dominate walls, either by hunting in packs (we've all done it), or by virtue of having the strength, stamina and desire to work a problem, or by assuming that as they're working on a harder problem, they have some kind of priority over the weaker or less experienced.

It's like,'I'm working a V10 problem, so respect me and climb somewhere else,' although the behaviour starts at much lower grades than that. I think it's properly entrenched once the English 6B tech grade kicks in, though.

There's focussed but there's also overly self-focussed. The other day I saw a climber doing easy stamina circuits on the downstairs slab on a saturday and getting in a huff whenever someone crossed one of couple of hundred moves covering about 25 square metres of 'rock'.

I actually got to climb at the wall in question last night.

My take on it here: http://77jenn.blogspot.com/2008/03/arch.html

In reply to Jenn:

Hi - interesting analysis. i agree with the gist of your review apart from one thing - the hard problems.. they are there - you just have to look for them!

ok so,

Yes - the grading is very soft. I have to fight my way up a lot of the castle 5Cs and 6As (ok some of them are more very stiff which is par for the course at the castle!). in my mind castle 5C is around V3 (although it shld = V2). Castle 6A = V3/4 depending on problem. At the Arch i found most V2/3s to be pretty easy and i flashed a fair amount of V4s and even one V5 (more like V3). Anyhow - i think most stuff is a grade out.

Regardless of that everything is brilliantly set. the opposite of the castle in fact. Technical moves and not height-dependant. I got fed up of doing 3 technical moves followed by a ridiculous dyno on a lot of castle problems..

As for hard problems. i was trying slopey v9 and green v7+ which were both nails - but they took them down a wk ago. I know Iain was working the green v7+ as well.. there are some really hard V5+/V6 problems - witness yellow v5+ at back right, v8 (swirly black, red, white) near to that and v6 near to that on same side (again swirly black, red, white). Some of the dawes problems are nearly ungradeable! there's also a V7 plus a couple of similar grade coming out from under the small roof which were good and hard....

In reply to Jenn:

<insert accusation of stalking here> ... </insert accusation of stalking here>

My impressions of The Arch were on the whole very positive. It could do with being bigger, so I hope that they are successful enough to think about exploiting what I am told is additional space at the rear of the place.

Maybe being bouldering-only helps the vibe, but I suspect it is also something to do with the lack of VBs and / or top-roping (not that there would be room for the latter). The temperature was good, the air was clean and the problems were interesting without being contrived.

Of course it was still indoors, but I felt that the grading and my performance (at least until I got knackered and started repeatedly falling off V4s at the end) were both closer to what I do (or try to do outside). There were some soft-touches and some problems that were hard at the grade, but in about the same proportion as outside IMO.

Generally, if I failed a V3, I still thought it was a V3; but maybe my difficulty was a lack of strength (a weakness for me). If I got a V5 then maybe it was easyish; but only to the extent of possibly being a hard V4 instead. Most of what I climbed and what I failed felt about right grade-wise. This is a major difference to many other indoor walls, where I end up shaking my head and the systematically ridiculous and inappropriate grading. Using V-grades is also a good step and I felt more comfortable with them - each to his own I guess.

A final plus point, very few of the problems crossed over each other (except for the pump-fest that traverses much of the rear section of course). Every problem intersecting with every other one is a current bug-bear of mine and it was nice to not have to look right, look left and look right again before starting a problem for a change.

So congratulations to the team at The Arch and I wish them continued success. I guess one challenge will be to maintain the high standard of problems that they have established. I guess only time will tell.

In reply to AlXN:

I cant agree more, while i recognise the need for a nice spread of grades some people climbing at the harder end take them selves WAAAY too seriously, an artitude that seems to be worse in boulderers.

I'm bumbling away at the bottom grades, hoping to get better, but we all started somewhere. Yes its annoying when my local wall is full of newbies in trainers clutching wide eyed onto jugs but I like to think theres room for everyone there. No one is more deserving of space/problems/respect than anyone else no matter what grade you climb. Its supposed to be fun!

In reply to TRNovice:

Relative to my comment on grades and those of young Wilbur above. I thought that the V-grades were consistent with N Wales ones, not Bishop. I think that might reconcile the difference.

In reply to Wilbur:

Ya, I agree. I wasn't really looking for overly hard stuff, but I was just surprised at what I was getting up, given my lay off and injury. I think the grades at The Arch are soft but still they are much more interesting than the Castle, by a long way. I agree completely about everything in the Castle ending in a dyno!

I'm excited to go back to The Arch and try some of the harder stuff.

In reply to TRNovice:

I thought they were soft, even by N Wales stds.

In reply to i.munro: I think this may be a common problem. Alot of walls have very little above V6/7 and almost nothing above V9. This is fine for most as most people dont climb much harder than V6 on a regular basis but for a small majority is not adequate. Though i think this may vary from wall to wall i.e I imagine 'the school' has loads of problems above V10. Perhaps this is to do with the clientele? If all else fails get a weight belt to do problems or spend more time on the campus/finger board and use days off to travel to hard problems to improve strength gains. Maybe you could ask to set some problems yourself?

P

In reply to TRNovice:

re grading. I don't do V-grades so can't really comment. However I seem to have hit my limit at V6 at the Arch which, according to what I've read, equates perfectly to my current limit of 6c at Fontainebleau.

Frankly though as long as the system is internally consistent, who cares?

In reply to Jenn:

Flipping strong people *grumble*, *grumble*, *grumble*...

In reply to i.munro:

I do for one - I even created a Facebook group about it :-o.

I climb more outside problems with V-grades so its what I'm more used to. Font grades are fine as well, but Brit Tech Grades aren't. Though I'm coming to appreciate the BMC's approach of V-grade plus Brit Tech

In reply to Patrick mcbride:

I think you're vastly overestimating my ability.
Tha lack of stuff above V8 doesn't look like it's going to bother me anytime in the near future.
I'm perfectly happy with the spread of grades as it is.
That was my point. Even ageing punter that I am, at all the other London walls bar I seem to end up campussing/finger boarding for something to do which seemed frankly bizarre & there was a chorus building for the Arch to go the same way.

In reply to TRNovice:




I have to ask why. Despite being completely unfamiliar with the nasty Yank Virus grades it all seemed pretty clear by the time I'd warmed up.

I can see how it would be a problem if, say , there was a huge gulf between V5 & V6 but if things are just shifted a bit can't you just convert in your head like I have to do to Fb grades?

In reply to i.munro:

Because I am deeply sad and was bored. Why else does anyone do anything on social network sites? Sheesh, get with the programme won't you!


I have very meagre mental abilities and it helps to be dealing with something familiar. I would guess in the last 24 months I have probably climbed 3-4 times more problems with V-grades than Font grades, I like things being simple for me. I appreciate that Font aficionados would appreciate the opposite, but then seeing how they are all so much more intelligent than me, it’s probably easier for them to do the conversion than poor benighted souls like me - right?

In reply to i.munro: My local wall (oxford) seems to have a truly excellent rope room for my level (up to he odd 6c) but there is little I can do in the bouldering room. If I can do them, they are massive jugs set up ladder style, nothing interesting.

Its even worse for my girlfriend.

Whilst I understand that the point of bouldering is short hard moves, but its very hard to improve if there is nothing in between ladder and bloody dificult.

Whilst I understand my missus could just rainbow climb, its not good for building confidence which is an essential part of improving.

It should not be difficult to have a smattering of each grade from low to high.

In reply to twm.bwen:

Actually, as people have pointed out, there tends to be a smattering of each grade from low to middle, which is frankly fine by me.

As for rainbow climbing I feel it often feels more like real climbing & like the routes I would set (ie shortish moves between poor-ish holds) than yarding between jugs.

In reply to Wilbur:

First I like the problem setting at the Arch, lots of technical problems and far fewer long reaches between small holds. Technique, balance and precise footwork pay dividends on pretty much everything with no tendon trashing holds and/or moves either. I hope this is going to have knock on effects at the other London walls.

As for the grading comparing to the Castle and Mile End on after a couple of visits I thought the grades were soft. However I climbed at AW in stockport 2 days after the second visit and found I was doing the same kind of grades (8 out of 12 problems on a V3/4 circuit) as at the Arch. Just confirmed what I have thought for a while that the London walls get there own scenes which are fairly small, quite insular and aren't being continually compared to and moderated against problems on rock in the same way as the northen walls are.

In reply to i.munro:

Those of us who don't train exclusively at one venue and climb on a wide range of rock types perhaps?

If I do a hypertrophy/recruitment set a wall X working 3-4 problems at V4 with 8-10 attempts at each, I want to know when I go to wall Y to work on strength endurance that the V2/3 problems will be either flashed or worked in 2-3 attempts and I can do 20-30 of them rather than finding that I get a flash pump from a nominal V0/V1 problem which is actually V3.

In reply to davidwright:

Well said - apart from you'd have to subtract at least two from the grades to get to my level.

BTW is hypertrophy like the Super Bowl at all?

In reply to i.munro:

At the end of the day any open ended linear grading system works fine. The castle use British tech grades but in reality they bear no resemblance to outside climbing. I'm sure they are aware of this.

As for not having enough problems above 5c at London walls is rubbish. I climb down in London once a week at both the Castle and the Arch. I can generally climb most problems in a session at both walls (look at me!)and I would say that there are enough problems at the higher grades. I climb 7c/8a on a good day.


I live in Sheffield so also climb at the works every so often. They grade a circuit from say 6a-6c and then mark each problem as being high, low or the middle of the grade. As long as things are consistent that why should you worry?

To be fair I think that the V grading system is flawed as problems up to V0 can be british tech 5b. Font grades work better in the lower ranges IMHO

Jenn I've seen you climb and you are pretty good, but there are plenty of problems that you would find taxing at both walls.

The Arch only has a small number if problems at each grade range and so it would be easy to run out of things to do. I think that they are trying to re-set on a more regular basis to avoid this problem.

In reply to DFSTW:

Actually I find them about right upstairs although a bit stiff on the mezzanine
(but that may be my climbing style)

I wan't suggesting that for a moment. Simply that I find at most places that there are far more routes set below 5c than above. Also having so many easy routes (especially when set using very large holds) & on all available surfaces tends to mean the middle grade stuff becomes awkward & tends to mean people walking underneath or climbing over you because they're not paying attention .

In reply to i.munro:

I was responding to Jenn

Try not climbing on the slabs all the time. From what i remember areas like the mezzanine don't have problems below 5c and have a more realistic grading unlike the joke that the Pen has become

In reply to DFSTW:


Oh yeah , sorry.

In reply to i.munro: i don't know about elitism but i visited the arch for the first time on friday.

the grading is somewhat flattering...i don't really think i should be flashing V5s when i haven't climbed in half a dozen times this year....

still, nice wall and i'll be back.

In reply to Jenn: Whilst I can't comment because I haven't been to the wall in question, as a regular setter at my local wall I will address some of the points you have raised in your blog. V4/V5 is a 'bread and butter' grade for the wall - certainly here, this is the the grade that the highest number of wall users appreciate and hence tends to be the most featured range. When we set an area the spread of grades tend to run like this: V0-2 15% V2-4 20% V4-V5 40% V6-V10 25%. Normally the probs are done by a few of us and grades upped or dropped accordingly.
Most of the strong guys (which include guys like Chris Webb and Garth Miller) will flash or do the hard stuff in a few goes and just make up their own stuff. I think you should just use your imagination and set stuff for yourself. You the kind of think you want so just make it up. I can see how doing this would piss people off when they have to pay 10 quid per sess or whatever but in reality, most problems set at walls aren't good training problems anyway. A 'board' style approach is much better for getting strong.

In reply to Carnage:

What I don't understand about all this is; what is the issue with just slotting some more easier routes in amongst the harder ones? It's not as though extra holds get in the way too much.
I think everyone makes up stuff for themselves when they want to. It becomes a necessity after a while anyway and it's a red herring.

In reply to AlisonS:

As far as I'm concerned there isn't an issue - It just depends on how the routes are set. Chucking big jugs up all over the place can be nuisance (especially if they are placed to close to other holds as the they *can* get in the way- often some harder problems depend on arms,elbows, whatever being in a certain position and a badly placed hold can change the problem completely). But it depends on the setter. It is easy to set good lower grade routes that don't invlove big holds (depending on the angle)- Problem is, most setters don't give a shit and tend to throw the easy stuff up at the end as an after thought when the hard stuff is finished.

Not sure what you mean about self setting being a red herring tho.

In reply to Carnage:


If that's the case it's a pity. Lower grades don't equate to big jugs anyway. The point of setting easier problems is to give lower grade climbers an lead-in to the harder routes so the problems need to be more varied and thoughtful if anything.
I also think lower grade routes work well as a warm-up and down for people climbing at the harder levels.
A red-herring to the topic. Because it applies at all levels anyway and doesn't excuse the setters from ignoring less strong climbers in an elitist (and not very commercially minded) manner.

In reply to Carnage: i think you're right in that people will always want to make up problems eventually, but i don't see why most problems set at walls can't be good training - if the setting is good. The downside of setting your own problems is that they tend to be purely strength-based problems where you see the sequence before you've even climbed it. The nice thing about really top routesetting is you end up having to climb things outside of your usual style or comfort zone so it ends up being a cool learning process.

I've seen top climbers having to work hard on problems way below their grade, but set in a particular style they wouldn't set/make up a problem themselves. i.e. a v14 climber on v6-ish problems. Happens all the time outdoors too & i think it's a good part of climbing generally.

It's a tricky one, because climbing indoors is part keeping the simple buzz of climbing, and part training for getting outdoors again. So the board room approach is kind of hard to maintain %100 somewhere like London where you are miles away from rock & trying to a certain extent to copy the outdoors.

Quick question - why don't Garth Miller & Chris Webb set any problems at the wall for other people? (maybe they do?)

With regards to the flattering grades, fear not as the overhang will be reset soon

cheers
f

In reply to AlisonS:

Like I said, it depends on the angle . Try setting an easy route on a 45 degree wall or horizontal roof that doesn't use big holds.



Ok - but what I was getting at is that the very strong are in the minority at most walls here and are not in much in mind when setting the problems as they knock the hardest set stuff with ease. Setting at the grade spread I suggested earlier works for us and brings very little complaint.

In reply to fred_stone:

Sorry - I was talking from a strength point of view. If the problems are set board style then yeah sure they are good for strength. However, in my experience entertaining plastic problems that mean slapping all over features, funky body english or bizarre mantels, might be fun but they aren't really gonna get you strong. I can see where you're coming from tho, being and ex London Wall-goer. We have an abundance of local rock here in Sydney so don't always feel the need to recreate the outdoors but we do set a good variety of problems from the interesting to pure burl.

At the end of the day its about and listening to your main demographic to put keep the climbers happy in the gym and run a lucrative business.

Some of the strong boys do come in and tape up problems which gives us something to flail on from time to time!

On the subject of soft grades - C'mon, who doesn't like getting their ego massaged once in a while? Just not all they time, hey.

In reply to carnage: true about the physical training side. I think the same thing is found in most bouldering gyms in france, italy, switzerland etc. where people make up problems mostly, holds get changed very rarely & the overall difficulty of holds + angles is pretty high. I'd agree that this is because these places all have much more rock around than in the south of england. However, who knows maybe this will be a trend that disappears in the future in favour of routesetting etc.? I think a happy middle ground of interesting set problems that change regularly & potential for making up board style problems is a good way to go, which sounds like what you're doing in the gym in australia. So far the toughest problems we've set are round solid v9, but with quite a few v8s as well. The v8's get a lot of repeats, but the v9's seem to have gotten under 10 repeats each which, given our traffic, is pretty low. Probably though, a v10 or 11 would get the same amount of repeats as a v9, as the people on them are generally very good.

To get back to the topic a bit more, and for Alison S, I think setting interesting *super* easy problems on all different angles is a great test of routesetting. However, you already have a decent level of climbing ability (i think i remember), so what you consider easy is still harder than a lot of people can climb on & i think it is this complete raw beginner level that i.munro is addressing the need to cater for. ie an abundance of climbs that anyone can climb pretty much first go regardless of strength, technique, height, balance.

However, yes obviously there is a commercial side to all this, but i suppose that comes down to wall size, area, demographic etc.

f

ps. the occasional soft grade, thrown in with a couple of sandbags = happiness

In reply to fred_stone:
i wish i hadn't said anything now...back to flailing up V0s it is....

In reply to DFSTW:

True, any open ended system would work but my problem with using Brit Tech grades is the lack of granularity. For example UK 6a can cover everything from V2 - V5 at a push. I like to know if I am improving, even indoors, and the most concrete way to measure this is by grades. I have been climbing at the Castle regularly for 4 years. I have flashed numerous Brit 6a's, yet have never done a Brit 6b, despite climbing many problems in the Brit 6b category outside and at other walls. Something is wrong. The other issue there is their problems setting. They make problems harder by making the holds smaller and putting them further apart. Fair enough, but every single Brit 6b problem that I have tried there in about the past 3ish years has involved at least one impossibly reachy move (keeping in mind I'm 5'3''). I've heard the argument that as problems get harder the holds get smaller and further apart even outside - bull. Plenty of problems exist indoors and out that are hard do but don't involve enormous reaches - it's the moves themselves take on a different and more taxing nature. Sorry if I'm not explaining it that well, but what I am trying to say is that hard problems don't necessarily have to be reachy. The Castle thinks the opposite. I think they are lazy as witnessed by the tons of problems that end in massive dynos - my take on it is that they couldn't be bothered to set the last 1/3 of the problem.

To each their own. I used to just climb at the Castle and would quickly run out of hard projects, again keeping in mind that I have to discount quite a few based on reach.


I'm not worried - as I said above I just like to know if I am improving (unlikely) or going backwards (more likely the case). I'm a huge fan of the Climbing Works, just wish it was a bit closer!


Again, to each their own. I can see how this might be a huge problem for beginners. I'm sorry, but I don't really care if something is a Brit 5a or 5b. I'm partial to V grades since they are used in the places that I love to climb such as North Wales and Bishop.


I never said that either wall didn't have problems that I would find taxing, but I can see how you might have developed that impression. I guess I should have more clearly stated that my criticism was about the quantity of hard problems, not the existence.

I think that the 'yardstick' I use to measure indoor bouldering walls is my first visit to the Climbing Works. They had tons of problems there that were nails and yet still managed to be in the category of 'maybe possible if I try hard enough'. Those are the problems that inspire me most as I like a good struggle. Generally in order for me to find a few problems that fit into that category, the wall needs to have quite a few hard problems as I usually discount ones that are ultra-reachy, or contrived, etc.
Err... didn't realise I was being watched... note to self, stop flailing on UK 5a's


Hmm... yes, I guess that is one solution, but the danger is not having enough time to complete a project. If it is that hard - I need time!

In reply to Carnage:

Hmm... Aussies are obviously much stronger. I don't think V4/5 is the average here. I would say it is more likely to be about V2, but I've been wrong many times before!

I have made up problems at the Castle in the past both on the featured wall and the new-ish 'screws only' wall downstairs. I actually tire of it quickly though. I don't know why but if you're doing it in a group, it's OK, but on your own it's a bit dull. At the end of the day, I would much rather spend my time campusing (I'm sad, I know) at least one session a week but injuries dictate otherwise.

I don't mean to keep pointing out the faults of the Castle, but I have been quite turned off to the place of late. There was a definite transition to more and more comp-style problems - slapping to random volumes, wacky moves, etc. I think it depends on what you want to use the wall for. My main aim is to get strong and gain a bit of technique for outdoors. I don't feel that comp style problems will help with either of those. I guess some people do like this style, but I think balance is needed. Both The Arch and The Climbing Works do this well, IMO.

In reply to fred_stone:

Completely agree and have been on the learning end of this process many times, much to my benifit. This is what has been greatly lacking at the Castle of late.

In reply to Jenn:

I'm a bit confused. I find the Arch has something like 6/8-ish problems at each grade. Given that , as you say, you need time for projects those problems at my limit are probably going to occupy me for something like 6-10 visits (given that for me cracking one project route is an ok sesh & doing two is celebration time).

Given that they seem to be resetting some panels about once a month I'm probably never going to finish all my projects.

Therefore they have more than enough routes at my limit. So what's the problem?

In reply to i.munro:
>So what's the problem?

In regards to The Arch, not a lot. I've only been once, but I really liked what I saw. My only two gripes were that I would have liked to see more problems at V6 and above and secondly the grades were a bit soft. My first issue was tainted by the fact that I am injured and not exactly looking for hard stuff at the moment - a bias I clearly stated. The second issue isn't exactly the end of the world.

As for the Castle - I stated my issues above.

In reply to Jenn:

It's the "I would have liked to see more problems at V6 and above" that I'm puzzled by. There's easily a month's worth for me at V6/7 & as many V8/9s should I ever get that good. Beyond that, perhaps not, but then as Fred says very few of his customers are operating at that level.

In reply to i.munro:

A second trip is obviously in order

In reply to Jenn:

I think you are missing the point. The granularity as you say is a system with 9 segments to differenciate difficulty. As I said before the Castle grades do not reflect grades outside. In fact nobody uses technical grades apart from Trad climbers.


My wife is the same height as you and has no problem climbing some of the 6b's. This is because she is a stronger better climber, nit because she has more reach than you. At your height you will always be at a disadvantage. You are also in the minority. Why should the wall set problems for just short people? Problems outside have long reaches, that's life. You need to focus on getting up problems and not blaming the grades and setters. That being said I hate dynos as well

Wales is probably the only place in the UK that is still using V-grades. I think they are going to change that in the next guide (correct me if I'm wrong). Even Yorkshire has switched to font grades. How you can say you prefer one linear system to another baffles me. Is this because of your single trip to Bishop and a couple to N Wales? BTW The 1st moves of soulslinger are about 5+ until you fell off. The rest has gone down to V7 instead of a vastly inflated V9

I think that the Castle's setting had improved no end over the last few years and is some of the best in London. Especially as they invest in their inhouse setters instead of just getting the big boys in (ala the westway).

In reply to DFSTW:

Can't say I feel strongly one way or another but it does seem odd to me to use an American grading system in a city from which it's faster to get to Bleau than it is to N. wales.

I guess the argument is that in one wall you could be using F6a for routes Fb6a for boulder problems & have people who are only familiar with UK 6a.
A lot of peeps I talk to seem confused by grading already.

In reply to twm.bwen:
Why is that any less good for building confidence?

In reply to Jenn:


Hmmmm. Methinks it is clear who doesn't "get" bouldering.

In reply to DFSTW:

Dude, chill. We’re talking about climbing walls, not famine, genocide or even religion.


Um, this isn't exactly news. If UK technical grades are so amazing, why have they started using V grades as well on the featured bit of the Castle bouldering?


Good for her. It is inspiring to see strong climbers especially female ones.

>At your height you will always be at a disadvantage. You are also in the minority.

Again, this isn't really news, but thanks for telling me.

>Why should the wall set problems for just short people?

Because they are paying customers.

>Problems outside have long reaches, that's life.

Again, this isn't really news, but thanks for telling me. My point was that not every problem outside involes a long reach, but you clearly have other things on your mind.

>You need to focus on getting up problems and not blaming the grades and setters. That being said I hate dynos as well

Something we agree on?


Yes, I have heard that as well.

>Even Yorkshire has switched to font grades. How you can say you prefer one linear system to another baffles me.

How can you say that you prefer one flavour of ice cream to another; they're both ice cream? I never said that V grades are 'the one true system'. Both have their merits.

>Is this because of your single trip to Bishop...?

It was two actually.

>BTW The 1st moves of soulslinger are about 5+ until you fell off. The rest has gone down to V7 instead of a vastly inflated V9

Both of which I know but thanks for following my progress so well and not getting personal.


Yep, obviously there are lots of happy customers.

In reply to Avid Bouldering Fan:

Clearly you do... care to explain?

In reply to DFSTW:

Oh and after doing a minute's detective work - it's good to see that a member of the Castle's team is open for constructive criticism. It does their reputation lots of good.

Your e-mail from another post: dylanfletcher@gmail.com

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=288686&v=1#x4291998

And the same name is listed here:

"Meet the Team" http://www.castle-climbing.co.uk/gallery/26.html

Don't get your knickers in a twist

You pointed out that you didn't have enough projects because of your height.I pointed out that you are blaming your height as other small people don't have the same problem

I questioned you choosing v grades over aonther system and you told me something about ice cream. My point is that it doesn't matter if they use colours numbers or whatever as long as there is a linear gap between grades it all works. Route setters in London have no idea about V grades

I also pointed out that you probably have enough problems to work at the wall if you are struggling with 6a'a. What problems have you climbed outside that are V5/6? Just the ones with small reaches?

Of course this is personal. You attacked a wall because a: there was not enough to keep you occupied b:the reaches were too long c:too much pulling on volumes. Have you actually climbed at the works? All the problems involve pulling on volumes. Why do you think the castle has started doing this?

I stand by my comments

I write and provide courses for the Castle and other walls. I still have an opinion as I travel to many walls around the country and feel that your comments are miss guided.

I am in no way representative of the Castles opinions when I write on an open forum under a alias.

In reply to DFSTW:

I have been going to the Castle for four years now. The strange thing about this conversation is that I do like the place – I just think it could be better.

Obviously it isn’t open to criticism though.

As for what V5/6’s I have climbed outside, my logbook can be found here:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/showlog.html?id=10665

And yes, I am well aware that Room to Swing… is highly debatable.

I wasn't saying that there is nothing that couldn't be improved on I just think that for the majority of customers the grade ranges are enough

Didn't mean to offend

In reply to DFSTW:

Whilst we have your attention. Seriously, what the f*ck are all the long reaches about on the problems at the castle? fair enough if it's meant to be set as a dyno. or fair enough if not and there are intermediate holds. Not normally the case though in my experience! Not sure if those problems on the old upstairs wall are still there? The beige one with the technical moves under the prow followed by huge lunge and a similar blue one? what a load of rubbish they were!

Anyway, i do like a lot of the bouldering there but if V or font grades are not to be used why not just put '5c,5c,5c' to denote how many 5c moves there are on a pen or mezz problem. then i can tell if it's more like V1 or V4...

And whilst i'm at it... the long leading situation is still a joke... when are you lot going to come round to my suggestion of making all lines upto and including the column and the crack left of that into lead lines. bollocks to the punters they wouldn't know the difference anyway - they can have the boulder problems with bolts down in the new leading area - you can just turn them into top-ropes...

In reply to DFSTW:
>

But it would sort of throw your other postings into a different light wouldn’t it? In the same situation, I think I might have gone out of my way to point out my affiliation to The Castle before saying anything. You can hardly claim to be unbiased can you? Leaving this statement until now is pretty poor IMO.

As a point of order, not sure how criticising a climbing wall (even if it is your occasional place of employment and you set some of the problems) is personal. However directing the type of comments that you have made at a long-standing customer of the same establishment certainly meets the description. The word unprofessional also comes to mind.

It is nice to know how criticism is received of your wall - deny there is a problem and trash the person who makes the criticism. Are you in politics in your spare time?

In reply to DFSTW:

Keep that thought in mind... and try to remember it before you press Submit Message next time.

In reply to DFSTW:
>> Wales is probably the only place in the UK that is still using V-grades.

Dartmoor bouldering (javu.co) for one at least uses V grades, combined with UK tech grades, with just UK tech grades for problems less than V0. Works well for me.

BTW I quite liked the V grades upstairs at the castle, could see whether a problem was a one move (sit start/dyno finish!) wonder, or sustained at the grade. Same way the sport and UK tech grade works for lead/TR routes there, and indeed the Uk trad adjectival and tech grades work outside in bringing two elements to bear.
Dont know why it wasnt rolled out for the latest reset of the mezz slabs? was it a failed experiment?

chiz

loving it 'castle route setters don't understand v grades'.

They shld try climbing outside sometime fella, they're quite common there ya know. And not just wales. try some of the peak guides or dorset, or dartmoor etc etc etc.

Also just cos the climbing works has lots of volumes doesn't mean the castle shld follow suit. try loking outdoors for inspiration next time!

In reply to DFSTW:

So true and I think this is what some people forget. Its just plastic. We use a scale of 1-6 here, including plus or minus either way. You climbed some bigger numbers than last week? Good - You must be getting better. Simple.

In reply to DFSTW:

As an impartial reader on this thread, you've come across as a bit of a tw*t. Personal attcks from someone working at the castle due to critism of their problems is pretty lame, as is hiding behind an alias so people don't know you work there.

Maybe this isn't how you hoped to come across, but it doesn't look great.

(I've never been to the Castle so I can't comment, however Bear Rock is the best wall in the world, in case anyone was wondering. Having the setter come over and say, "do you like the problems? Anything you don't like/things you would like to see next time?" - Accepting feedback/critism)

In reply to galpinos: everyone please relax i'm getting a headache! All walls have different setting styles, just like different crags have different styles/reachiness. If you don't like the setting style at a wall, you can always climb at another one if it's really that bad!!! IMO the castle has great setters, but that's not to the point.

Long reaches are becoming the bug bear of setting, but sometimes they have their place!!!

People used to be very critical of the bouldering setting at Brookes in oxford, i thought it was great that it was sort of awkward and tricky.

It's all fun anyway, if you climb a soft grade awesome, if you can't make a long move, laugh it off. Bouldering's all about getting your ass kicked 99% of the time anyway no?

f

In reply to i.munro: casual thought - i wonder if the direction of this thread answers i.munro's original question??

In reply to fred_stone:

I agree with what you said, just that an appropriate response from someone at the wall would be, "Which ones do you think are reachy, have a word next time you're down etc" as opposed to "the problems are fine, you're weak/rubbish, personal comments etc."

People all have favourite walls, styles of problems etc and will always argue about grades. The fact that indoor grades are irrelevent doesn't matter.

If we didn't argue about grades, we wouldn't be climbers!

In reply to fred_stone:



Hi fred. This thread shot off at a strange Arch related tangent, to what I intended, right from the beginning. It's a laugh though.

In reply to i.munro: i think that the way the thread went, it seems like a few possibly early conclusions:

- no one has accused you of being elitist
- everyone wants lots problems at their grade & below
- significantly less people really want problems above their grade to work on & improve
- climbers care about routesetting, but can't agree on it
- reachiness is the number 1 complaint about routesetting

To look from another angle at the same question -

How would you feel if you went to a wall & regardless of your level, could only climb say 3 or 4 problems, while all around you, people were climbing most of the problems? Would you be inspired, or put off? Would it inspire you less than going somewhere where everyone was climbing more or less the same & you could climb most problems easily?

My first experience of climbing was one of getting relentlessly shut down, but managing a few climbs overall. Seeing that other people could climb so many more problems than me was inspiring though, so i kept going back.

I'm convinced that at a wall with a friendly atmosphere where the stronger climbers help the beginners out a little, having a general spread of slightly harder problems will only inspire beginners more than 'dumbing down' to them.

f

In reply to fred_stone:
good points, and I agree with most of it, for me the whole V/Font/tech grade thing is a diversion, I just want consistent grades at a venue over time so I can see whether I'm getting worse/consolidating etc.

>>How would you feel if you went to a wall & regardless of your level, could only climb say 3 or 4 problems, while all around you, people were climbing most of the problems? Would you be inspired, or put off? Would it inspire you less than going somewhere where everyone was climbing more or less the same & you could climb most problems easily? etc etc>>

good points well made, but easy problems on slabs/vert walls dont HAVE to be jugs. I think we have to recognise that different people use boulder walls for different purposes: as a training venue to perfect moves, to get strong, cos they havent got a partner, or to get into climbing etc etc. For the people starting out I think the problems can help people progress, at the venue I use the 4A's have big holds, and easy moves ('a ladder'), the 4b's generally have big holds and an awkward move ('missing rung'!!), the 4c's are more interesting but still generally big holds. The 5a's are usually trickier moves, PLUS smaller holds. Its perfectly possible to set easier probs that have small holds -getting starters used to the footwork needed for harder moves, otherwise its really hard to learn the skills to progress up the grades and people just plateau at 4c unless they get helped out.

I go to the wall in the afternoon, when its quieter, and that means I get less narked -whether by topless adoni, bumbling starters, or whoever. I'm lucky though that I can do this.

Going to try and get to the arch this afternoon....
chiz

Does it matter that you climbing V6 at The Arch, V3 at The Castle, or V13 at Mile End?

I watched a very good climber last night who just missed out holds to make any already difficult climb (for me) harder, or if its too hard add another hold from another route.

How about just enjoying ya'self, get some climbing/training in, and maybe have a bit of a social?

I totally agree. I find it inspiring to watch stronger climbings knocking off hard grades, and even more inspiring, when they take it upon themselves to cheer on us lower graded climbers whilst we give it our all.

In reply to TRNovice and others:
>In reply to DFSTW:

>It is nice to know how criticism is received of your wall - deny there is a problem and trash the person who makes the criticism. Are you in politics in your spare time?

This has all got a bit intense, hasn't it? Just chucking in my tuppence worth since it seems the place for it.

For the record I have no particular affiliation to The Castle other than climbing there regularly.

To be fair I think they take a regular pasting on here, which is not really fair to the work they are putting in. In terms of not being receptive to criticism - I have usually found tracking down one of the route-setters for a friendly chat to be a pretty good approach in terms of giving them feedback, and also hearing what they have in mind for improving the centre, rather than just telling them what amounts to 'I think you should set problems like this' or 'your route setting is all screwy' on a public internet forum which is always going to be a bit one-sided.

For what it's worth I think the quality of the bouldering has improved massively since the new policy of resetting the entirity of one of the areas every friday, and if anyone honestly claims they can't see a change in the route setting in the last 12 months I don't think they have been paying attention. I think there was a case when one of the areas was entirely re-set after a week, as the problems were deemed to not be up to scratch. Sometimes reachiness is a pain, but a) often problems outside are reachy, and b) it comes down to individual route-setters - there are a number whose problems I always find reachy, and some which I think cater to shorter people really well, like the problems on the slab at the moment. That being said I do think problems involving massive dynos are a bit over-represented at the moment.

Also am I the only person who thinks that smart use of volumes makes problems more like outside, not less? Especially the physical sort of moves you get on gritstone. Certainly more like outside than a line of holds going up a flat wall, IME, but it probably depends on where you climb.

re. grades - IMHO V grade plus UK tech works well on the features wall, it gives you two bits of information plus lets you relate it to difficulty of routes as well.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Very well said that man.

In reply to galpinos:

I'm as impartial as you on this thread, and I think DFSTW is coming in for unwarranted criticism. Unprofessionalism is nothing to do with it as he is NOT posting here as a spokesman for The Castle. Yes there may have been a bit of cattiness in his language but it makes a refreshing change from the usual patronising "oh you're so gnarly" rhetoric that Jenn almost seems to invite from time to time, and worked well in getting her attention. Complaints that it became a personal attack are absurd - of course it was personal, he was specifically addressing points she made about her own climbing!

I don't believe that I have ever actually COMPLAINED that a route or set of routes on an indoor wall has been set and graded for taller/reachier people than me. If I can't do it, I'll say "I'm not good enough to do that".

In reply to Blue Straggler:


Fair enough. Highlights how differently people read stuff.


Just seemed unwarranted to me. Does Jenn come over as "gnaly"? Maybe to you, not to me.


Neither have I, but I'm not tiny.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Whilst I’m not exactly enthusiastic about getting involved in this debate again, I thought you raised an important issue, which I should clarify.

If you knew me, you would know that I love a challenge. I feel that ‘reachyness’ in climbing both indoors and out is all part of the greater challenge of climbing for me. I feel so strongly about this that I would go so far as to say that it has made me the climber that I am. If I refused to ever climb anything where I couldn’t immediately grasp the holds, I would have never got off of the ground. Starting out my boyfriend would reach past areas that were the crux for me with great ease. Yes, there were moves that I was not physically capable of however it came down to choosing battles. I certainly couldn’t win them all but the ones that I did manage forced me to do harder moves from the very beginning of my climbing career. I believe these moves required me develop different techniques and made me stronger than I would have been if I was of average height even on supposedly easier ground. With this in mind, I’m actually indebted to ‘reachyness’.

As chance would have it, I have evidence to back up the fact that I do enjoy working out ways around reach. There was a black UK 6a in the Pen (30 degree overhang area) at the Castle a few months ago. The general consensus was that it was a bit soft touch. I tried it, but struggled with a reach in the initial section. However I was hooked. I thought the problem was great and really wanted to do it. I worked out a way to overcome this initial crux by deadpointing a side-pull crimp. This move was one of the hardest that I ever pulled off indoors.

I have a video of me working the problem here. It’s the third one down the page. Sorry that I can’t link to it directly, but it’s on Blogger as I thought it was way too rubbish to even put on YouTube.

http://77jenn.blogspot.com/2008/01/two-trick-pony.html

(Apologies to Catt for another Blogger link )

I was extremely motivated to work out my own sequence and hopefully gain some strength for this problem / process. However I never completed it. I developed a severe shoulder injury and was advised not to climb by my physio. As DFSTW would say, ‘that’s life’. At any rate, I hardly shied away from the challenge.

My concern as stated above was with the nature of harder problems (above UK 6a). Every one that I tried for over 3 years had a stopper reach for me. Should I have risen to the challenge – well I did try; obviously I need to get stronger, but this isn’t exactly news for me. I just felt that it would be motivating (and definitely possible) to set a few harder problems which involved nails moves yet still maintained being reach independent.

Climbing means a lot to me, probably too much. I even feel strongly about indoors as it’s the best proxy to be found in London. I put a lot of effort into it and expect to gain a few accomplishments. As I’ve said on a thread ages ago, by trying my hardest I put myself out there. In doing so yes, I am more than aware that I am opening myself up to criticism. Why do I do it, well I’ve actually been struggling with that one a lot recently. Ultimately I believe that things can change. Whether this is people’s attitudes or my own ability doesn’t matter.

I believe in pushing myself. I also believe in being a positive example.

Someone has to and that’s a challenge I’m willing to take.

In reply to Jenn:

In reply to Jenn:

While you're on here, can I ask about something you said earlier during the swerve into discussion of grades.

You said IIRC that you preferred bouldering grades to Uk tech because
for example Uk6a cam be anything from V2/Fb6a to V5/Fb6c.

You went on to say that you wanted grades at walls in order to monitor your improvement.

It seems to me that one-move tech grades are ideal for monitoring improvement. My experience, is that once I've done every move on a problem
then eventually linking it is a matter of perseverance.
Therefore going from climbing a V2/Fb6a with one UK6a move to a V5/Fb6c with several, doesn't necessarily require more strength or better technique.

By contrast Uk 6b definitely requires more stregth/technique than UK6a (that's the definition).

Look at it another way the UK6b climber might find a particular sustained Uk6a harder than it's Uk6b neighbour ie a higher bouldering grade.
For a 6a climber though the 6b simply can't be done.

In reply to Jenn:

What's the important issue that I raised and that you felt you "should clarify"? I honestly can't tell, from the post above.

You seem to have basically told me that you enjoy climbing and try hard at it. Great, well done. So do I.


Your post above seems very defensive, with some "edgy" turns of phrase, and I am left wondering why.

In reply to i.munro:

All very true.

In reply to Jenn:

Well that puts paid to this afternoons avoiding work tactic of arguing about grades.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I was replying to the issue you raised about people who complaining about reachyness.

I was attempting to explain that I often embrace reachyness.

Obviously I made my points poorly.

In reply to i.munro:

Sorry to disappoint

I think I'm argued out.

In reply to Jenn:

Did I raise an issue "about people who complaining about reachyness"?

I said I've never complained about being able to a route because it is reachy. I said nothing about other people.

I think the main issue that I was trying to raise, has been overlooked. Maybe I too am not very clear. Oh well, tant pis pour moi

In reply to plexiglass_nick:
That being said I do think problems involving massive dynos are a bit over-represented at the moment.

yes they are!! i found another two on the panels! there are some cool problems up though - the blue on the steep mezz is good as is the stone. both entertaining for 5c!




i'm happy with that but V2 does not equal a problem with 2 x english 6a moves in... try V3 castle route setters...

or possibly even V4..

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Sorry that should say "I said I've never complained about being unable to do a route based upon its reachiness"

In reply to Wilbur:

which one?

In reply to Wilbur:

Really? I've yet to do 6a in Fontainebleau that didn't feel like it had at least one Uk6b move. Of course I'm working from quite a small sample.

In reply to All and Everyone:

Had enough of arguing on this one - I'll let people draw their own conclusions about the actions and intentions of various protagonists and whether they were appropriate or not. Different people will come to different conclusions, and I suspect which side of the fence you fall speaks more to you as an individual than anything else.

Of to catch up on some work - BFN.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

can't remember which - one of the v2/6as in the old upstairs by the prow. complete balls - v2 is 5c max imo.

and whilst i'm on the subject how does f6a+ = 5a tech grade? Oh, that's right, it doesn't!! they really don't have a clue...

In reply to i.munro:

Marie Rose font 6a - one 6a move on it.

la statique font 6a (white 10) at isatis - probably doesn't even have an english 6a move on it. still can't do it (3 times of asking - tis my nemesis).

various at rocher canon - le caprice for one and a slabby one in the middle.

Rocher Fin - le cube. soft for font 6a... etc etc etc

obviously you could name hundreds that are ridiculous for font 6a. Nescafe, suzanne, science friction, beurre marga etc etc etc

not quite sure what the point was?!

In reply to i.munro:

i agree there needs to be a higher range of problems v6+
i use sunderland as my local quite often and it does cater for pretty much everyone. alot of v0-v3 v4-v5 v6+ and normally on the 45 degree, it is mostly the high grades. which is good for training etc

In reply to Wilbur:

Nescafe is a weird one. My first 6a, but couldn'y repeat it when I went back in Nov, but I've had mates who I normally burn off who've flashed it. In the words of Jerry, "It must be techniquey". La statique is good, though difficult to see where you pull on. Marie Rose is easy english 6a imo.

In reply to galpinos:

Nescafe is wierd isn't it? I hated it until I could do it and now I think it's excellent. Although doubt I could go and repeat it either. Having said that I'm fairly comfortable to say it is brit 6a, just all on the feet. I suspect a lot of grit slab afficiendos piss it.

In reply to Wilbur:

Maybe the point was that as everyone knows Font grades in Font mean very little and are all over the place with relation to true difficulty. However everyone accepts it because it is part of the fun of Font getting your arse kicked by 4+'s but still ticking a 7a along the way...

In reply to i.munro:
I totaly see what you are saying, however walls need to get as many people thru the doors to make money. Unfortunatly, walls that cater ONLY to high ability climbers don't make that much - if any - money (just look at the wall closures). What I think walls should be doing is providing a sustained progression in routes - starting at the basic jug-fest, all the way up to international standard (if they can). I'm lucky, my local is EICA, which does just that.

I suppose the thing we have to remember is that it tends to be kids clubs, kids parties, and strarter cources that make the money! If they don't do this, few walls would be here!

In reply to rrfsteve:

This is what I find odd though. Admittedly London might be a special case but there are walls popping up all over the place (mostly not dedicated centres) clearly aimed squarely at kids & beginners ( By which I mean first ever time climbing beginners) & they don't seem to be doing that well. It seems an odd situation where there are so many facilities to get people into the sport but nowhere for them to go afterwards.
I'm wondering/hoping if climbing is going to go the way of the gym market with costlier options for those who actually want to train.