UKC

We are putting a few comparative grades in the Lofoten guide to give newcomers an idea of what to expect.

Any comments on the list below greatfully received.

Cheers


Chris

1910 Ruta 4+ Hard Severe 4b
Bare blåbær 5- VS 4b
Gandalf 5 VS 4c
Forsida 5+ VS 5a
Skiløperen 6- HVS 5a
Lundeklubben 6 E1 5b
Svenske Diedret 6+ E2 5c
Tapier 7- E3 6a
Dossethrisset 7 E4 6a
Reisen 7+ E5 6b

In reply to Chris Craggs: i'd agree with gandalf, skiloperen, lundeklubben (including the puffin figures) and bare blabaer..seems you've got those right.

In reply to Chris Craggs: Chris, I would agree with them all. Surely Vestpillaren should also be on the list??

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I would have put 1910 Ruta at severe rather than HS.

In reply to Nj:

Well its one from each grade and as Vestpillaren is the same grade as Lundeklubben (E1 5b) I wasn't sure it was needed, though you may be right.


Chris

In reply to davidbeynon:

I thought it a bit serious and intimidating for a humble Severe (more like Main Wall) - but you could be right.

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I thought your old mini guide was pretty accurate (apart from an e1 to the left of Gandalf which was soft - name escapes me). I'd agree that West Pillar at E2 5b would also be a good reference point.

In reply to GrahamD:

Yes - Vestpillaren - that is where the problems start, we have had E1 5b, E2 5b ad E2 5c suggested for it!

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs: Ahh Vestpillaren, thought you might be having trouble grading that. Its a long day and I found the 3rd crux quite awkward I'd say it was more 5c, but the other cruxes where alright. I might have been tired by that point. I'd probably say leading all pitches it would be E2 5c. Especially if you compare the cruxes to something like Solens Sonner.

Just for your information I found Engleviner around about the right grade, each pitch being about equal - 5cish.

Hope this helps... Although you've started my yearning to go back!?!

In reply to Chris Craggs: Svenske Diedret and Forsida I agree with. The others i haven't done!

What does Solens Sønner get in the new guide?

In reply to Chris Craggs: 1910 Ruta is probably ok at HS, especially if you do the jump between the horns.

I thought Gandalf was a bit stiff for VS 4c. Might have been me.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Too long and sustained for E1 (compared with the longest E1 I personally know - Coronation St and it is a grade tougher than that). I can't climb 5c except on the very best of days and we did it in the cold in comfy boots and socks so certainly no more than 5b. E2 5b was a grade made for this route !

In reply to Chris Craggs:

BTW Gandalf is a really good calibration point - to me it is spot on at VS 4C when compared with classic Cornish counterparts of the same grade.

In reply to Chris Craggs:


Is that for an absolute pure contrived ascent of the crack, avoiding the flake to the right? If not, I'd say more like E3 6a max.

Talking of which, I feel I should keep reminding you of my claim to the first authenticated lead of Gelbe Kante.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Was in Lofoten in June 04 so memeory is a bit hazy but...

Svenske Diedret: seems right at E2 5c.
Dossethrisset: E2 5c - Unless I'm missing something and doing it an easier way.
The Reisen - only seconded the crux but would have given it E4 6a. As it was the roof pitch was the only bit I had problems with, the rest was a 'just' a whole load of E2 and E3 5c. But I was only seconding so...

Will

In reply to tobyfk:


Go on - remind me when?

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Bare Blabaer - VS sounds ok, quite a soft one though.
Gandalf - solid VS 4c.
Forsida - VS 5a is fair.
Skiloperen - easy if you can jam, and easier than a lot of grit VS (eg The File). Possible VS 5a?
West Pillar - E2 5c with the direct start, soft E2 5b without.

Can't wait to see what new stuff is in the guide!

In reply to Chris Craggs:

If you mean when did I first mention to you?: in a fairly lengthy email reply I sent to you in response to your request for Lofoten photos. I also noted it in a previous Lofoten thread and TobyA and I have commented on the database: http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=27860 I also left a note in the new route book in the cafe about it when I was in Lofoten.

If you mean when did I lead it?: July 2002. Onsight, FWIW. Toby Archer followed it.

Obviously it seems fairly likely that someone else has led it before ... as it's not very hard ... but I thought the convention of these things was to acknowledge the earliest claim until someone else says "heh, I did that in 1989" or whatever?

In reply to tobyfk:

No - I meant what year are you claiming it for, to save me trawling through the archives.

I'll float it past the Lofot-team and see what kind of response I get,

Cheers


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

If Lundeklubben is E1 5b (which it is just about) then Vestpillaren is E2 5c for sure, the slanting corner pitch is sustained E2 5b on it's own and there are two other tricky moves over bulges on the other two 6 pitches. Compared to say Gamle Rev (another reasonable 6) it's the hardest. (Do the 6+ direct finish on Lundeklubben, felt far easier!)
Solens Sonner felt E3 5c to me, but was a little wet around the crux...not a huge fan of slippy slabs either....best E3 5c pitch in these parts is the moon one, can't remember the name (Monens?) , a fantastic pitch ruined by two chossy lower ones....

Agree with other grades of routes I've done....

In reply to Chad123:

I'd be more inclined to compare the climbing on Vestpillaren to, say Xanadu in Cornwall at E2 5b. I certainly don't think it can be 5c as 5b is generally top grade for me.

In reply to GrahamD: I don't see why Vestpillaren should get E2 just because it's long. Otherwise every 200 mtr long Scottish route should be an adjective grade higher than a similar technical graded 10 metre grit route. But British grades don't work like that. Considering there is hardly a move on Vestpillaren that you couldn't aid if you needed to it certainly doesn't need the extra E point for danger.

In reply to jamiemoss:


When I first did it, it felt like the hardest thing I had ever led - and I was climbing to HVS and the occasional E1 at the time. It's quite long and much steeper than many of the other Lofoten routes. If you're not used to steep long climbs its pretty desperate. The few jamming moves at the bottom are fine, its just the hanging on to the jugs 25 metres higher that is hard work! I've done it 3 times now and I reckon it's top end HVS minimum. You must have been having a good day!

In reply to Chris Craggs:


It's hard to grade for it, but the starting move are absolutely brutal - harder than 4b I reckon, but then what I remember of the rest is Vdiff-ish.


Seems a bit unlikely. I seconded it without too much problem at all, and 5b can often stop me, 5c is really hard and don't know if I can do 6a!

In reply to TobyA: Nah.. skier is deffo VS 5a. soft HVS 5a tops.. the gear is perfect, it is not pumpy as the moves are just a few steep pulls from a decent position..

West Pillar is deffo harder than lundeklubben and because some of the cruxes come a fair way on to the route where backing off would be troublesome i think it should get the E2 for its seriousness, its also fairly tiring at 400m+.. comparing it with 200m scottish routes isn't really any good because West pillar has a lot of tricky climbing. its not just a quick cruxy move and then a total VS yomp, theres something on every (well a lot of them) pitches.

Lundeklubben is prob average-tough HVS.. we did it in the rain and i don't climb that hard!

In reply to Mattyk:


But it is as safe as houses, it's not serious at all (beyond it's length, but British grades don't deal with that - so give it a alpine grade if you want . The first four pitches are equipped for ab descent, there are bomber belays the rest of the way.

In reply to TobyA: true it is safe as houses... but when you're tired near the top doing a few cruxy moves feels tougher. If i compare it with the E2 we did in Nissedal (name escapes me), it is no where near as hard.

To be fair i always thought the grades in the mini guide were sort of ego-massaging anyway. i never believed bare blaeber was VS, or skier E1 either but there you go. When i first went to Lofoten i was too chicken to lead skier.. 5 years on and i thought it was a piece of p:ss but i have done a lot of climbing in between.

An extra E for the effort of hauling your ass up to the arctic circle.. surely!

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Stalker! Thought you'd show up on this one! I think the problem with asking people's opinions is that Yorkshire VS 5a (Jamie and Matt) is about Scottish NW E2 5b so you'll never get an agreement. Some people are good at granite cracks and some aren't. I still think the moves over the roof on pitch 7 (best pitch with a lot of competition!) are 5c unless I missed something. Anyway who cares what grade it is, it is a total world classic, probably equally the best route I've done anywhere (with Squamish's Grand Wall) , just go do it and make sure it's got lots of stars in the new guide....Oh and less pictures of Matt and Ali's ugly mugs would be nice, they seem to dominate Northern England Rockfax!!

In reply to Chris Craggs:

PS It is a little bold on the top pitch so not all well protected, though admittedly about E1 5a....

"Oh and less pictures of Matt and Ali's ugly mugs would be nice, they seem to dominate Northern England Rockfax!! "

LOL... wait until you see it... see you this weekend??

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Yeah see you at weekend for sure - weather looks pish so could be a large drinking session instead...oh well! Had a good one with the missis in Croyde, excellent climbing and surfing so if I don't end up another Lakes "classic" I won't be too disappointed!

Had a hunch you'd be all over the guidebook, seeing as you are on the cover! That might put me off buying the guide you know.... See ya Friday, C

In reply to Mattyk:
If i compare it with the E2 we did in Nissedal (name escapes me), it is no where near as hard.

If that "E2" was Tyrion I'm not really suprised! I haven't climbed Tyrion but when i do I'm expecting it to be at least E3 6a... Most 7 routes i have been on seem to b comparable to uk E4..

Might be going down to Nissedal next month so we'll see!

In reply to Daniel Armitage:
>
we are going there in the summer - just wondering if you know where to pick up some info on the routes - i know there is a rockfax mini guide but this is very selective and has mostly harder routes than we would be climbing - thanks

In reply to Chris Craggs: Will we ever come to a conclusion on West Pillar, it is truely an awesome route though like people have said before its 1 of the best that I've done. I'm going to have my 50p again!? E2 5b+!!! I just remember the last crux pitch (6/7?) as being awkward, like I said I was tired then so maybe that was to account for it!?! Only recall having an peanut in as protection for the move. Ahh I'll have to climb it again!!!

As for Solens Sonner I thought it was definately E2 5c, you are going to take a swing but on to really good gear although I may enjoy slabs too much!!!

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I was climbing a fair amount of HS and a lot of VS at the time, and I thought it was pretty easy. The last pitch is pretty exposed I suppose, but it isn't actually difficult.

In reply to TobyA:

Don't they? Unregretably I haven't done much in Scotland but there's definitely an observable tendency to boost mountain or multi-pitch E-grades vs outcrop routes in England and Wales.

I think giving Vestpillaren E1 would risk suggesting a deceptively low commitment level for the route. I'm sure, like you and I, most people do the route on settled sunny days, but I'd hate to be high on the route if the weather turned, especially as there aren't fixed anchors to facilitate a fast bailout.

Really the best comparator for Vestpillaren is multi-pitch granite in North America. The Yosemite Grade and Class would spell it out precisely: IV to signify a full-day route, low-end 5.10 to signify the nice undemanding climbing. It's a shame Chris hasn't run with that for the guide IMO.

In reply to TobyA:

Not just because its long but because its also sustained with 3 5b pitches and a bit more sustained 5a climbing.

I can't comment on Scottish grades but I can compare with other granite routes on Lundy and Cornwall and if something like Xanadu is E2 then I reckon Vestpillaren certainly is.

In reply to tobyfk:

It would be nice to be able to offer more depth of grading in the book but, of the 375 odd routes in the guide, we would have had to make the grade up for around 300 of them since no-one who uses the system you mention, has climbed those routes.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Didn't Webster use the YDS on his guide? He's a yank after all.

In reply to jamiemoss:

West Pillar is no way 5c.

E2 5b is probably a fair grade overall due to its length and the fact its got a few 5b pitches.

Compare it to Moon Dance (6+) on Festvagvegg or Havornen (6+) on Trollfestningen which we thought were both 5c. West Pillar is far easier than either of them.

In reply to Daniel Armitage:

yeh it was Tyrion. we thought E2 5c at the time but thinking back and comparing it to others we did later in Lofoten maybe E3 5c/6a would be more accurate...if only for the steeper bolted pitch.

would be interesting to know what you think anyway. it's a fantastic route. i probably enjoyed it more than West Pillar! and the grassy corner is an experience

In reply to tobyfk:


But only to an American. I'm not sure what percentage of sales are expected to go to N.America ?

In reply to Chad123:

Solens Sonner is no harder than E2 5c. you might take a swing off the crux slab but ultimately it's well protected and not that hard. matt pissed up it seconding and thought it more like E1!

In reply to HeMa:

Yes, but he only covered about 100 routes, which still leaves us 260 to 270 odd.

Alan

In reply to GrahamD:


Really? I'm sure a lot of the people of any nationality who are sufficiently adventurous to go to Lofoten are also the sort of people who will have either already been climbing in the US or aspire to go.

In reply to tobyfk:

Bingo... at least IV 5.10b tells more to an average non UK climber than the cryptic E3 5B.

In reply to ali k:

Ali you are a true yorkshire sandbagger! Come to Scotland and start downgrading all our routes. No offence but you can't grade routes well if a) you are seconding them b) your lead grade is much higher than the routes - they all seem about the same down there in the low extremes for you now I'm sure Mr E8....

Wish I'd never started posting on this silly forum now, but for the sake of keeping it going the E4 5c I led at Sharpnose at the weekend felt much safer and steadier than Solens Sonner (told you I hate slab climbing...)

Are you coming at the weekend too? We can continue this argument then! C

In reply to auld al: You can buy a guide called Gå Telemark at the campsite by lake Nisser, this is a pretty good topo based guide with UIAA grades, and some Norwegian, it pretty much covers all the climbing, but new routes are being put up all the time....

The author Götz Wiechmann will probably be there, he is most summers. its worth a talk with him as he's a very funny, intense german bloke who called me "guy" (sounds like gay!)the whole time we were there!

It was cool to hang out with climbers at the campsite speaking and listening to a cacophany of terrible english, german, norwegian and swedish!

In reply to Chad123: Sorry, but i agree with Ali on the Solens Sønner grade... I was climbing solid e2 at the time and thought it was solid e2! It was slightly wet on the first crux, up to the finger crack, but i found the top moves moving right to be scariest...

A classic at E2 5c!!!!!!

In reply to HeMa:


In what way is IV 5.10b any less cryptic than E2 5b ? It looks a damn site more cryptic to me: its 6 symbols excluding the decimal point as opposed to 4.

As to whether a trad biassed Scandenavian is more familiar with NA grades than UK grades, I don't see why they would be.

In reply to HeMa: Why don't we just stick to stupid norwegian death grades instead?

E3 5b = Norwegian six = badly broken dead after fall from crux

E2 5b = Norwegian six = bit broken scared

E1 5b = Norwegian six = scared laughing

HVS 5b = Norwegian six = laughing

VS 5b = Norwegian six = fall, what fall?

See its easy!

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

And don't forget he had to 'guess' the grades of all of the routes out of that hundred that he didn't actually do!

Chris

In reply to GrahamD:

I am pretty confident that I have climbed with more non UK climbers than most people on this forum. I assure you that knowledge of UK grades (and indeed interest in UK grades) is almost always zero. And generally falls to less than zero if you start trying to explain ...

In reply to tobyfk: Now is there chance to get to know something beautiful!

Anyway surely, british guide book writers, british language = british grades.

You don't get french alpine guidebooks with E grades, YDS and the rest do you? non.

In reply to Daniel Armitage: THEIR chance..

In reply to tobyfk:
Heh, I did that in 1989. Gargle my butt gravy, dude.

In reply to tobyfk:

I'm sure you are right. All I can say is that I found the UK system perfect for describing the climbs I did there - other systems would no doubt be equally as clear to other people.

In the end, though, it largely boils down to the expertise of the guidebook authors (and their reviewers) in differing grading systems and their perception of what their target readership require.

In reply to Nj:

Nick - I realised recently when checking in my old Lofoten guide that we have, albeit very briefly, met. I thought I had seen a British team free climbing Live Aid when I was there in 2002 with TobyFK. But looking in my guide I realised I had climbed Gandalf on the same day in 1998 that you and Dave did "For Cod's Sake". So my memory was four years and one route wrong! But we chatted very briefly after you had finished because I remember asking you if you had free climbed Live Aid. At the time I think you thought you had.

In reply to GrahamD:

The problem with Lofoten is that you can't just apply a simple translation to the Norwegian grade without climbing the route since, as we all know, grades vary greatly when converting between systems that emphasise different aspects of the climbing - sport grades and bouldering grades tend to slip quite nicely between systems, but trad routes are altogether different.

In Lofoten we are talking about a lot of routes that have never had a second ascent and, as guidebook writers, we can't possibly just assign random trad grades to them. Since some are epic 15 pitch E5s, we also can't go and repeat them all, so we have to go with what we have got. In this case that is the Norwegian grades. That might not be what the target audience wants - and I agree that the UK trad system does suit this type of climbing better than most other grading systems - but we have no choice in this case.

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Alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC: Well i can't wait. I genuinely thought when i went this summer that it would be the last time i would ever visit, however my trip was cut unexpectedly short so i didn't do everything i planned to do and with this new guide offering to un-earth previously unpublished stuff i reckon give it a few years and i'll be back up there. Of course i'll be a minor celeb up there by then
I must say though, not sure what your write up will be like compared to the mini guide but the reine slab was a serious dissapointment!

In reply to Daniel Armitage: thanks for the info
alan