UKC

this article thinks it is

http://www.athlon.com.au/articles/rock_stretchingthetruth.pdf

thoughts?

In reply to JimR:

Makes a lot of sense. I'm particularly wary of stretching my muscles when they're cold. I'd prefer to do a few easy traverses and get my muscles going.

Some people I've seen down the wall seem to spend more time stretching to warm up and warm down than they do climbing.

In reply to JimR:
That article is a summary of the current research. My physio is also quite anti stretching for anything other than specific rehabilitation where appropriate, or where it's necessary to increase flexibility.

In reply to JimR:

I find a bit of stretching after climbing does me good, it seems to help relax tense musles which if left untreated lead to me having back and neck pain.

I never stretch to warm-up, just climb easy or better (but rarely) go for a 10-20 minute gentle jog.

In reply to JimR: I have done stretching exercises, particularly at the wall, but I have to say that my heart was not in it and I'm not convinced that it prevented injury. I have however always found that I climb better and feel more flexible if the approach is significant enough to build up a sweat. The good news for me now that I'm approaching 60, is that that this at least is becoming much easier to achieve

Al

In reply to JLS: Interestingly I train at the track and a physio runs the sessions. He's worked on the worlds best atheletes, and works with UKA so I is one of the top guys.

We do a very long warm up, pver 50% of the session. Starts off with a 5-10 minute jog, then stretching. Comprising loads of dynamic stretching preparing the body for the sorts of movement it will encounter. For example quad stretches, but short 3 second bursts, then release. Leg swings etc.

Then we go on the track and do a long period of running excersises. strides, high knees, bumflicks, straight leg running, skips etc. We also 'walk the running motion' so walk down the track holding the running posture.

Then we do the sets which will be 20-30 minutes long. the total session lasts ~ 1:30 hrs.

In reply to JimR:
10-15 mins straight after training helps me-certainly i feel i can reach further if i keep doing it as oppose to siezing up over time if i don'nt.I think you have to be careful as i possibly overdid it 4-5 yrs ago,i climb very straight armed when i can and tweaked my shoulder a couple of times-as in subluxation? injuries.Maybe over stretching did this?I could not say for sure though.

In reply to JimR:

I don't bother doing any stretching during my warm up these days. I'm just aware of my posture - I think doing shoulder exercises is more important for me, but that's just because them's currently the weakest link in the Paz chain. I can see that if you're doing an awquard move that hurts a bit, it's best to have already got that joint into that awquard position before you pull on the rock, and then in the event it won't hurt as much as you've already been there, through your range of motion, or if there's somethng well weird and specific I'll do it - I'm gonna need to stretch my knees a bit soon. And I'd stretch my forearms a bit to depump between climbs.

In reply to JimR:

There is a big difference between stretching and over-stretching. I personally find stretching very useful before and after training - I am careful to not overdo it though as I know too many other martial artists with knackered hips etc. as a result

In reply to JimR: I have found that I got more injuries when I stretched for the competitive athletics and cycling that I have done without stretching. This is despite me being older in the non-stretching part of my life. A slow and specific warm-up is more important in my view. If you are going to stretch, do it at the end of exercise. I don't have scientific evidence to support these views, only my own observations.

In reply to JimR:

I'd have to disagree. It is very important that the girls at my local wall continue with their stretching exercises. Up to 100% of the time is about right for maximum benefit.

In reply to wayno265:

I stretch at the end of exercise, because otherwise I'd end up even more seized up than normal.

I think I'm the least flexible person ever. bah.

In reply to JimR: Only stretch after climbing, never before. Warm up by climbing about 5grades below my top grade and increase slowly. I do stretch afterwards, mainly because it feels good to. I reckon strengthening exercises for antagonistic muscles, as opposed to stretching is better for injury prevention and seems to be the thing that keeps my various tweaks at bay. As for my back, various stretches for that and my hamstrings are a must or I start seizing up.

In reply to JimR: As an ex gymast, I have spent a lot of time stretching and being stretched. Personally, I think stretching is great and should be encouraged, but the amount and type of stretching should be relevant to the type of exercise. As a fairly short non-partiuclarly dynamic climber, I find myself continually pushing the limits of my flexibity on routes, whereas, I can watch others do the same and they simple miss out the 'left foot by nose, whilst mantleshelving on your right hand' manouver and reach to the next hold.

You don't have to do a full yoga routine, but a few warm up exercises and some stretching during or after your workout will surely improve your overall condition.

Ignoring the physical aspects, have you also considered that stretching is used by some people not only to warm up/improve flexibility, but it becomes a routine way to focus the mind whilst preparing the body for the activity ahead. How many of us rush to the wall after work (sitting in traffic, dealing with idiots all day), on with the boots and start climbing routes? Personally, I quite like my 10 minute 'time-out' before I climb, after that I rarely notice the hoards of screaming children.......honest!

In reply to JimR:

I don't stretch at all when my muscles are cold.

But I so find a post-exercise stretch invlauable. It might be psychological but the only times I really hurt the next day after heavy exercise are when I haven't stretched, whether through not having time to do it or through an attack of "what the hell".

In reply to JimR:

I always stretch before and after. Warm up with low angle climbing and some circling of major joints, then build the climbing load up gradually.

I find if I incorporate no stretching in the warmup, my reach is limited, deep flags and other moves that rely on torsional force feel awkward and I pump out far more quickly.

I stretch afterwards to avoid doms, which has always worked for me but the article says is crap.

Its a magazine article, I would consider it a poor source. He doesn't cite one reference.

In reply to JimR:
i always shake off, move about a bit - increase the heart rate, and then stretch a wee bit, climb a wee bit, stretch a wee bit more then climb and maybe stretch anything that still feels tight after that,

the last time i didn't stretch off properly i injured a finger within about 15 minutes of me starting to climb - not a good look.

In reply to JimR:

There is clearly a difference between warming-up and stretching, although stretching may commonly be included in warm-up routines. So it's hard to know quite what works and what doesn't. We're comparing individualised routines dreamt up, adopted and adapted by different people. I have difficulty sticking to exactly the same routine every time!

I do trust elite climbers as sources of authority on warming up and stretching for climbing performance -- see Neil Gresham's demo of a warm-up on the Cromlech boulders (part of his masterclass dvd's) before he chats through Right Wall.

Elswhere on the dvd's, he also clearly demonstrates warming up the upper body, including gentle windmilling. (Gentle, note). But he also advocates a quick run for a warm up (see his repeat of Equilibrium) and a number of other activities to stretch the upper and lower body. I'm happy to trust his advice, based on his track record at the loftiest levels of the sport.

I guess it's a bit of a no-brainer. To climb well, you have to activate the appropriate energy systems. That's why it makes sense to have a slightly elevated heart-rate and to make sure the local blood supply is all ready to go. I think many specialists are saying there's no harm in doing a little bit of stretching as part of this wider process. Just don't overdo it & don't subsitute for a warm-up.

I've also heard light stretching for being rated very highly as an activity in its own right, on a 'recovery' day, for example.

In reply to AlXN:

I wonder if our ancestors stretched before chasing down that deer? A requirement to stretch before exertions would have been a huge selective disadvantage to any human. So i suspect stretching to avoid injury is complete bollocks. It does feel good though and my dog agrees, so i'll keep doing it!

In reply to wilding: But our ancestors wouldn't have sat at a computer desk for 8 hrs prior to chasing the deer.

In reply to JimR:
But surely stretching is one of the 3 parts of a warm up!!!- pulse raiser,stretching and activity relevant to what you are doing!

grrr i hate sport science it all contradicts itself!!!

In reply to JimR:

I've been stretching before exercise of any kind for years and i've never been injured during exercise so..think the article is talking shoite meself.

In reply to JimR:

Once I started stretching after climbing I noticed a huge difference in the amount of muscle pain and stiffness I got the day or two after a session. I've never stretched before a session, as I read an article years ago suggesting that stretching before exercise was bad for you.

I'm interested to read about the person with the pro trainer who incorporated stretching into the warm up. It doesn't sound like the kind of 30 second held static stretching that most of us think of as stretching, rather more putting the body into its extremes of motion briefly in preparation for something more serious. I've found that to be a useful part of the warm up.

I'm a bit disturbed that the article said windmilling was a bad idea. I've found circles with my arms one of the few ways to get my shoulders ready to climb. I wonder what I'm supposed to do?

In reply to agibb: just move your shoulders through the three rangs of motion in both directions. So shake hands behind your back both ways, Two I'm a little tea pots, Two forearm to tricep squeezes and one SUPERMAN. This also works on a friday night down the disco between Agadoo and the Conga.

In reply to JimR:
i love stretching.i was never naturally a flexible person even though i did ballet when i was little i was always the unflexible one. through climbing i've got so much more flexible but i think thats mostly due to me stretching a lot

i don't see how it can be bad though. isn't too much of anything bad? if you run too much doesn't it harm your ankles and knees? where do you draw the line?
as long as youre not trying to squash your foot behind your head every morning i'm sure its alright...right?

N.B. Superan is mre like the skydiveing tracking position. Human flight is not possible without a powered wingsuit and even then the claims of level flight are untested and probably Icarean bullshit.

In reply to Paz: Have you been smoking sommit again? You've seen what I look like so you know what my stretxhing regime consists of... god damn it - pull the table closer - don't you know its not healthy to stretch for your pint/doughnut?

In reply to wilding:

You're absolutely right. A brisk 45 mile walk/run over rough terrain with a few dummy throws with the spear (misses) would have been all that was needed.

And by the age of 35, the hunters were no longer part of the action -- toothless, lame and confined to more gentle activities -- or dead.

No point wasting energy with windmills for these chaps

Like you, I think I'll stay with the windmills and leave spears and things out of it.

In reply to anansie:

How do you know that you would've gotten injured if you hadn't stretched? I used to stretch religiously before exercise and I can't remember a time when I haven't been injured to some degree.
The article is written by a qualified medical professional who has extensive experience treating climbers, is an accomplished climber himself, and is a summary of the current research into the effects of stretching on injury prevention and strength and power. To say it's talking shoite just because you've never injured yourself is shoite, I could just as easily argue that you've never injured yourself because you've never exercised hard enough. If you happened to be one half of a pair of mono zygotic twins who exercised in the exact same manner, with the exception of stretching, then I'd be more interested in the results.
Somebody posted above about the lack of citations, I suggest they google for the study done on the Australian army into injury anr stretching, and numerous other studies done into the effects of acute and chronic stretching on strength, power, and endurance.

In reply to Serpico:
I could just as easily argue that you've never injured yourself because you've never exercised hard enough.

I exercise very hard, i'd say i'm in pretty much peak physical condition for a lady my age ( perfect weight for height, good muscle tone and bmi and feel fit as a fiddle!)and i believe i've never been injured whilst exercising Because i stretched beforehand and afterwards. Bearing in mind..this is just my opinion and my experience with stretching. There are many other factors that may come into injuring oneself whilst exercising..poor use of equipment, pushing oneself too hard and not re-hydrating, inexperience, and injury can be caused by any or all of these factors aswell

Maybe stretching isn't good for all? ( wouldn't base my decision on one article though)...but..i've found it's helped me no end in reaching my goal weight and has kept me personally injury free ( touches wood it remains so :oP).

In reply to anansie:


It's not 'one article' it's a summary of the current research, I could point you at other articles that say the same thing.
You don't know that stretching has kept you injury free, you presume that it has.

In reply to anansie: but..i've found it's helped me no end in reaching my goal weight and has kept me personally injury free


The point is that you may have remained injury free if you hadnt stretched - you dont know and neither do we

In summary it hasnt been proved that stretching helps injury prevention much but warming up on easy routes does which makes more sense as it is specific to the activity whilst bending your foearms backwards or linking your arms behind your back doesnt unless you are doing some very unusual offwidthing.

Some flexibility is useful for non-injury reasons - particularly in the legs for high step ups and bridging and arent usually related to climbing training type injuries anyway. Shoulder flexibility might be useful for cross-thrus but given the complexity of this joint I would happily trade off lack of flexibility for putting that joint under that sort of extreme sort of stress in the first place.

In reply to Serpico:

They're still researching it right? and in that..it's still inconclusive as to whether it benefits you or not? So..with that..we still don't know for sure do we?

I believe it helped and still does help me..you are a maybe on it? You have your opinion which i respect , and, i have mine which i'll keep, thank you

In reply to Simon Lee:

As above We don't know either way for sure and we all have our opinions on it. We won't always agree on things on here but then, it would be boring if we did

In reply to anansie: As above We don't know either way for sure and we all have our opinions on it. We won't always agree on things on here but then, it would be boring if we did



Quite. Scientists are always disagreeing and turning over each others theories in a process of creative destruction that leads towards the truth. However, on the balance of probabilities and in the sprit of generousity I would assign say a 95% chance that the conclusion of current research is more accurate than your anecdotal, unverifiable opinion.

In reply to anansie:

>
You can put me down as a no. Am I going to do something that has repeatedly been shown to reduce strength and endurance, whilst at the same time has failed to show any benefit in injury prevention?


You have your opinion which i respect , and, i have mine which i'll keep, thank you

You may respect my opinion, but what prompted me to post in the first place was your lack of respect for the authors opinion: ".think the article is talking shoite meself."

In reply to JimR:

I'd suggest that this article isn't offering the best advice.

For example, it questions whether having increased flexibility is a good thing:

"The obvious question: is increased flexibility desirable?"

Quite clearly this is a ridiculous question

In reply to Simon Lee:

Maybe?, but until it's proven that stretching is indeed bad for you i will continue to do so before and after exercise as..it's helped me personally and as long as it continues to i'll keep it in there

My humble little opinion is just that..mine and i won't change it just because someone shows me as yet, unproven research, however..if i'm proven to be wrong ( with conclusive proof),i would be the first to say so and i will

In reply to Serpico:

You are right in this respect. I could've worded that a bit better

Still don't believe it mind, but..could've shown the author and his opinion a little more respect

In reply to gobsmacker:



Why? If increased flexibility destabilises a joint then personally I'd rather have a stable joint. Better to be strong and slighty inflexible than be supremely supple and falling apart IMHO


... oh and one of my serious injuries a while back was caused by forearm stretches

In reply to gobsmacker:

Why is it a ridiculous question? Did you go on to read the next sentence? Or the rest of the article?

In reply to Serpico:
http://www.athletikspesifik.com/climbing-flexibility.html
http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Stretching.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2221716.stm

Little new information in the above, just posted to try to get away from the assertion made by some posters that it's just one man's opinion.

In reply to Serpico: In reply to Serpico:

Hi Serpico,

You've given sensible advice in the past, clearly train and climb hard, and hang out with others who do the same. So I respect your opinion, even if I'm not quite sure that I agree with you at the moment.

Here's something to put into the mix. See what you think.

1) Competitive athletes in many disciplines do undertake stretching AS PART of their overall conditioning.

Some of this stretching is with assistance from a physical therapist (relax- stretch- relax-stretch) to increase the range of motion of a joint within the desirable range. Strength and power training are carried out so that in competition, a maximal force can be generated across the full range of motion of the joint.

2) Within rock climbing, it's very clear that some exponents of the art at the top of the pile do exhibit very obvious flexibility and can apply force as well - we're not talking about the showy but passive flexibility that's often seen on the warm-down mats of indoor walls.

Look, for example, at the hideous drop-knees exhibited by Neil Gresham in his techniques masterclass DVD. They make me cry to watch, with the most extreme starting with a toe at practically shoulder height and dropping into a solid Egyptian.

No doubt about it, if you're able to pull these moves and have the genetics and conditioning to put your joints through these extreme forces, routes that are otherwise unnecessarily powerful must surely be a relative path: that's the whole point of what he's demonstrating here.

3) The other thing (moving away from climbing, specifically) is that some athletes have bodies that are being conditioned 6 or more days a week, perhaps more than once a day. They understand what their bodies can do and are highly attuned to how they work, what they can stand, what's useful and what isn't.

Most people aren't elite athletes at this level of conditioning and it's intuitively obvious that that sense of complete and deep understanding of the body isn't there to the same extent. So when we talk about 'stretching' it's something that's not likely to be done as mindfully, carefully and productively as when these guys are doing it.

Thoughts?

In reply to JimR:
I've got hypermobility in various joints and whilst it does occasionally have benefits, it has so many drawbacks that it's certainly not a sensible goal to aim for. But I've no idea if a person with normal joints could become hypermobile through stretching.

The article summarises what I thought was now pretty much accepted amongst sports scientists? All people's comments in the thread of 'well this wonderful physio tells us to do it' and 'well it does me good so it must be good' mean little ... people used to think radium was good for them.... you just can't decide anything like this on anecdotal evidence... plus obviously there'll be a placebo effect, as with everything else.

The most important message seems to be: if you are going to do it, make sure you're nice and warm first.

In reply to AlXN:

Actually , the average age of hunter gatherers is substantially higher than 35 (around 65) - if you ignore the horrible levels of childhood mortality, which brings down the average age to mid thirties. And I doubt lack of stretching had much to do with childhood mortality.

However, iain is right the overall level of fitness in these societies is a lot higher than us modern lot, stuck behind our computers, in an office without seeing daylight, commuting along polluted highways, losing our natural sleep patterns because of articial light, and eating refined food. Jeez, any wonder we have so much depression.

In reply to Serpico:

I think you'd benefit from putting these ideas to experts in tehe field, i.e. physiotherapists etc.

one article which claims to know "the truth" about stretching, a truth which goes against the opinion of thousands of professionals, is clearly a troll!!

They exist outside of UKC too you know!

In reply to wilding:

incidentally, tooth decay was rare in huntergatherer societies as long as they had no access to refined sugar (modern invention) or especially honey...

In reply to JimR: I only tend to stretch when I climb indoors. This is because it tends to be more strenuous; outdoors, I tend to start with easier routes which serves as warm up/stretch. I usually do one or two easy bouldering problems first to warm up. When I forget to stretch, I tend to strain muscles more often. I used to play a lot of vollyball and playing before stretching would often result in strains. Call me old fashioned but I'm sticking with stretching.

In reply to gobsmacker:
It's not one article, it's an overview of current thinking! And the opinion of the 'thousands of professionals' you refer to is based, as always, on what was current thinking _when they were taught_. So unless they're smart bunnies who keep up to date with changing thinking, what you'll be hearing from them is best practise from the 80s or whenever. Loads of physios will tell you not to stretch now... the ones who are up to date.

In reply to gingerkate:

An an osteopath here is my take:

1. A thorough warm up gets blood into muscles, vital to allow them to function correctly.

2. It readies the heart and lungs and energy releasing pathways for further aerobic or anaerobic output.

3. It is more important than stretching before exercise. As indeed is a thorough warm down after exercise to help muscles to dispose of metabolic waste products.

4. (Static) stretching as a separate activity can improve range of movement e.g. hamstrings to protect lumbar area. The more dynamic forms of "stretching" probably aid in improving proprioceptive feedback from muscle/tendon/joints thus priming the body for more extreme movements e.g. gentle windmilling.

5. In summary, warm up/down when exercising. Stretch as a general injury prophylactic.

In reply to gingerkate:

I was going to write something abusive about a complete lack of understanding of how scientific research and review papers and things, and on a lack of ongoing training. But you've done it so much more politely than I would have managed.......

AJM

In reply to gingerkate:


Well i'm certainly not the expert! But I am surprised at what you say, several physios and sports therapits i've been in contact with directly over the past two years (through work etc) have had the same opinion - the opinion which you say is now outdated!

Also, if this opinion really is outdated, why does the BMC 'Warm up for climbing' poster recommend gently stretching?

In reply to James Gordon:

So my muscles don't normally have blood in them? next

my lungs and heart work all the time, as do my energy releasing pathway. next

metabolic waste products? You mean shit and urine? i don't need to warm down to use the toilet, thanks.

As the article says, stretching is known to increase range or movement, however, as the article says - so what?


Err, no, did you even read the article? In the main paper cited, there was no reduction in injuries between the soldiers who stretched and those that didnt. The paper was published years ago, i think i posted on here about 5 years ago. Obviously it hasn't permeated the medical profession.

In reply to wilding:

How much do you know about exercise physiology?

In reply to wilding:

How much do you know about exercise physiology?

In reply to wilding:

Do you actually know what metabolic waste products means, out of interest?

AJM

In reply to gobsmacker:
I bet if I ask my phsyio he'll be pro-stretching too ... he's great. but he isn't the type to keep up with changes in thinking. But I've heard the 'stretching doesn't help' info from people who work in the area at university level, and they're the ones who are up to date. The BMC does a great job, but that's not where I'd look for the latest advice on exercise.

In reply to AJM:

Anything the body cannot metabolise, which is then removed.

In reply to James Gordon:

enough to know it is a pseudoscience, like most human related science were (thankfully) you cannot do proper controlled experiments.

In reply to wilding:

of course you can. although there is much variation. as with all science. it certainly isnt a pseudoscience.

In reply to wilding:

Almost, yeah.

Did you know that not all of it actually involves you going to the toilet, or were you just picking a fight for the hell of it? Considering the guy was making the fairly simple suggestion that warming down at the end of a session helps you clear these waste products out better, which I've not yet seen frowned upon as a technique anywhere, you seemed to be fairly wound up about it....... And I'm not sure what you have against a warmup either.......?

AJM

In reply to wilding:

It's an empirical science of human mechanics where the scientific method is interpreted aas well as quantified. Though the number of wordy essays written in the subject harms its credibility.

OK, so have you heard of lactic acid or are you imune to the pump?

In reply to Paz:

Lactic acid is not a metabolic waste product. The body processes lactic acid in two ways, both of which are then used in metabolic pathways. The pump you refer to occurs when lactic acid builds up in cells faster than the body can process. Stop exercising and the cell processes the excess lactic acid to be used. This happens within the cell and the process is quick, and doesn't require a warm down.

In reply to wilding:

Gonna have to raise the bullshit flag there. You sound like you know enough to get yourself into trouble but not enough to get out.

In reply to JimR:
i find it hard to believe that stretching does nothing, if nothing else it prepares your mind for whats coming up. plus every top athlete and my dog stretch before exercise so it can't hurt can it

In reply to Paz:

we will have to disagree. Unless you can completely control all the influences on a study then it is almost pointless. A valid criticism of the army stretching study would be something that iain raised earlier. Soldiers tend to be fitter than the general population, therefore both your groups are different from the general human population. Unfortunately, finding an 'average' group for these sort of studies is impossible. So the only real conclusion is 'stretching does not affect injury rates in australian soldiers'.

In reply to AJM:

I have a big chip on my shoulder about people claiming something based on no evidence or common sense. Like most people i was taught a load of crap at school. And as Gingerkate points out, most of this stuff is based on the thinking of the day, not science. The onus should be on people to come up with falsifiable hypotheses to support their ideas. Unfortunately that is too hard, so they just claim stuff as fact.

The list includes stretching, warming up/down and also exmine how many differnt training plans are out there (gallowalking is a good example). In general a lot medical doctrine is plain wrong, evidence based medicine is frowned upon. Almost every diet fad for the past 100 years is just wrong,and anything mentioning free radicals is really annoying.

In reply to AlXN:

I currently stretch for:
Sport specific flexibility (mostly hip turn-out)
Postural reasons, pecs, low back, and iliopsoas
Injury rehab, lateral epicondylitis

I don't stretch for:
Injury prevention
Increasing ROM where it's not essential
Decreasing DOMS

I stopped pre exercise stretching for injury prevention about a year ago (long before I came across this article) based on the studies that showed no injury prevention benefits, and separate studies that showed negative effects on strength, power, and endurance.
I've recently stopped post exercise stretching based on the advice of my physiotherapist, I can assure you that every argument I could think of for stretching I put to her; I am not a passive patient.

There's a distinction to be made between stretching to increase ROM because it's necessary for your sport (ie: wide bridges, etc), stretching as part of an injury rehab, stretching for injury prevention, and stretching to reduce DOMS.

In reply to Serpico:

This seems a very sensible and balanced observation. Thanks. I'll sign up to that.

In reply to JimR:
My opinion on stretching, for what its worth, with no expert knowledge, is as follows:
I do do some (but not very much) slow stretches before going running or climbing. The reason is more because it helps me feel less tight and that I can stretch further to holds, that injury-prevention though. I tend to do a quick jog on the spot or something first to try and warm my legs up a bit before stretching them, and I make sure I dont stretch them too much.

In reply to wilding:

I dunno, warmups seem pretty effective to me. I climb consistently badly when I jump on something hard at the start of a day without easing into it. I know lots of other people who feel the same.

Common sense seems to make sense for warming up and down, so I'm not sure its based on no common sense or evidence. Its got at least one on its side, and experience tells us it seems to work.........

Science *is* the thinking of the day - what on earth else do you think it is?

AJM

In reply to AJM:
Ive bee nwatching Neil Gresham's training videos this week. One interesting thign he says is that to warm-up you should just od one route before the one you are kee not do (ie is hard for you) and that it should only be a grade or so easier, in order to have the best effect. So if you were aiming ot do a 6c, you should warm up on a 6b, or if you were aiming to do an E1, warm up on an HVS (this is obviously very genmeralist, but you know what I mean).
I was quite surprised by this as I tend to want ot warm up first rout on something a bit easier...usually anyway. What do you think?

In reply to Si dH:

Kind of makes sense in an intuitive "primes your body for some hard work" kind of way. I can see the argument that something easier normally won't get you going as much.

To be fair though I tend to like to second something first to get my body moving a bit then just get on with it - I find if I start on something easy it destroys my psyche if I find it the slightest bit non-trivial and that sometimes stops me from getting on things that I probably could do because I feel like I'm having a rubbish day.

I think at my levels of trad its more about getting my body moving than any real pump resistance or anything as I'm not exactly onsighting trad at my physical limits because I'm too much of a wuss.....

AJM

In reply to JimR:

I found this book a while back. It's pretty good and talks about a lot of the things discussed on this thread. According to this guy, there is no scientific evidence that stretching before exercise leads to reduced injury. However, there is a definite correlation between warming up and reduced injury. He also talks about the different types of stretching and their benefits. ie. dynamic stretching is good for warmu ps, but if you do static passive stretching before your training session then you may reduce your overall performance. Finally, there's some sports specific information and one example is the case of the long distance runner where it is actually more efficient for them to have tighter hamstrings.

The whole thing is slightly from the perspective of martial arts training (you don't have time to warm up before the ninja attacks so you need to be able to kick him in the head straight away) but the science seems sound.

It's called Stretching Scientifically by Thomas Kurz

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stretching-Scientifically-Guide-Flexibility-Trainin...

In reply to AJM: Science *is* the thinking of the day - what on earth else do you think it is?

At a stretch theoretical science maybe seen as 'just' thinking of the day but in terms of what 'else' even theoretical science requires the proof/evidence of logic/maths to substantiate the thinking.

Popular thought (which is what Wilding was refering to I think)by comparison often has a sketchy relationship with causality.

In reply to Simon Lee:

There's a very noticeable phenomena now isn't there, where a group of scientists will do research purporting to show whatever. It gets picked up by the media, and generally inflated, distorted and misinterpreted. And then maybe later studies show it was all wrong anyway ... but it's too late, it's entered the collective consciousness, and become part of what 'everyone knows'.

There was an interesting article in New Scientist recently about the whole process of science, and the probabilities of a particular result that some investigation has come up with, actually turning out to be true.

In reply to gingerkate:

And, of course, that popular classic "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds" by Charles Mackay published in 1841 is worth a look

In reply to gingerkate: There's a very noticeable phenomena now isn't there, where a group of scientists will do research purporting to show whatever. It gets picked up by the media, and generally inflated, distorted and misinterpreted. And then maybe later studies show it was all wrong anyway ... but it's too late, it's entered the collective consciousness, and become part of what 'everyone knows'.

Good points well made. The scientific community is also not as open minded as you might expect it to be either. Scientists are also human and get married to an idea or theory and indeed their reputation might be based on the idea/theory that is being challenged by a new theory/evidence and will bitterly defend their original position to the end. What are the stages?..denial, anger, acceptance. The scientific community is also subject to fashions (and funding) on where they focus their endevours. However, the basis of science will 'out' in the long term and is to my mind a great force in human endevour/ civilsation...apart from atom bombs and a few other hiccups!

In reply to Simon Lee:
"The scientific community is also not as open minded as you might expect it to be either. Scientists are also human and get married "

Not me Simon. But I'm not exactly a typical member of said community, assuming I'm a member at all. I'm way more hardcore than that.

In reply to Simon Lee:

And also, I'm getting way off topic now. Now we had a few near misses (the end of the world, bah) in the cold war, and proliferation currently is a bit worrying (Syria want Nukes now apparently, like that's gonna happen, they're more likely to get the Golan heights back). But a lot of people are worried about Nukes because of the number of deaths and long term casualties at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Look at it scientifically, you've got to end the war against a nation that was fighting tooth and nail to the death some how. The US was firebombing the shit out of Japan already. What would the death toll have been of a more widespread firebombing campaign followed by a massive sea born invasion (D-day 2 anyone?) as opposed to the Nuke enforced surrender that we got? I venture they would have been incomprehensibly enormous.

In reply to Paz:

Looking at it also scientifically Science has created a specific risk in creating a capacity to end all life including scientific achievement up to that point. Hopefully this wont be realised and scientific achievenment will instead divert any one of a number of global disasters such as diverting an oncoming asteroid, replacing the ozone layer with clingfilm or whatever. I remain optimistic.

In reply to Simon Lee:

Fair point, but we're a broad church. Without dredging up another wretched going nowhere debate, religous people cry persecution if you blame their religion for the actions of what just a few people did in its name.

I'd just say humans discovered this threat. The world's dangerous, should we have just ignored it? Not to mention that the Russians also simultaneously discovered it, and the Nazis might have even done too if they understood an exponential chain reaction instead of a linear one (though the probably wouldn't have got enough U238 in the 40s).

Can I ask you a question?: I'm an unemployed scientist, how much should I sell my principles for?

I actually find those bullshit papers that started all this off quite motivating in this respect. If f*ckwits like that can get paid to do such dross then I should be able to do what I do and eat.

In reply to Paz: Can I ask you a question?: I'm an unemployed scientist, how much should I sell my principles for?



It depends on where you are on hierarchical ladder of needs. If you are starving to death a packet of hob nobs would probably suffice.

In reply to Simon Lee:

Not that low, but it makes you wonder how many of us are in it just for the free tea and biscuits.

In reply to Paz:

Does that mean even if there's no such thing as a free lunch, that a free tea is available?

In reply to Simon Lee:

I didn't mean entirely lacking in logic when I said it was the thinking of the day - I was thinking things like Kepler's laws of planetary motion - they had proof and logic behind them, but ultimately aren't entirely correct........ even evidence backed views can change over time.......

AJM

In reply to gingerkate:

Of course, the theory that you should stretch, and the theory that you shouldnt, could both conceivably fall into this category.

In reply to JimR:

A cup of tea yes, cream tea no.

In reply to Si dH:
Yep, absolutely.

In reply to Si dH: In reply to Si dH: Of course, the theory that you should stretch, and the theory that you shouldnt, could both conceivably fall into this category


You are to congratulated on your unintended irony. That statement is a marvellous example of the black and white type of simplification and distortion from skim reading the article - it wasn't as straight forward as a clash of 'should' or 'shouldn't' theories.

To summarise the article:

-Can stretching increase your flexibility ?- Definite Yes
-Is increased flexibility a good thing ? Yes if you are very inflexible, but do any stretching when you are warmed up. If you are super-flexible you are possibly slightly more prone to injury.
-Is stretching before climbing a good idea ? Unlikely. A warmup route/s is a much better option
-Does post-exercise stretching aid recovery ? Unlikely
-Does stretching prevent injury ? Unlikely. Developing general fitness and strength is better

In reply to Simon Lee:

I was't referring to it as dross, not having read it. but does this fall foul of the other popular criticism of scientific papers:

Tell us something we don't know, bitchs.

In reply to AJM:

But science is more than just 'thinking' it is testing, evidennce and causality. The conclusion may ultimately be proved wrong but that doesnt mean it should only be given equal weight to any random opinion. By contrasdt take journalism where cause and effect is stated with such certainty irrespective of whether the cause is a cause at all but just a convenient way of linking two facts to create a naarrative. Quite often the effect might be random happenstance but that hardly makes for a good story. The original article linked for this thread was I thought quite balanced in weighting opinions and research. But what do we get - a headline 'Is it a waste of time ..and possibly bad' and comments along the lines of Ive always stretched and never been injured therefore Stretching must be good.

In reply to Paz:

But the popular asumption is that stretching IS a good thing - end of. That article examined that assumption. So no - I dont think itcan be criticised for stating what was already 'known'.

In reply to Simon Lee:

Fair comment.. but my intention was to raise awareness that stretching is not a panacea .. and in fact if not warmed up can be actually harmful.. partic in light of the fact a lot of peeps use stretching exercises as a warm up routine in the belief it prevents injury

In reply to Simon Lee:

OK. Damn, I'm gonna have to read it then aren't I?

In reply to JimR:

That's the thing. That's the bit I am totally convinced by, because as well as the evidence you've got the physical logic if I can call it that .... why would stretching cold muscles be a good idea? Why would making your body go to max before it's done easy and middling be a good idea? It seems so unlikely.

In reply to JimR:

Sorry Jim - I was being a bit unfair making that point and your right re raising awareeness - your Mickryanesque title was better than a dry as dust title topic such as 'a revisionist examination of the response to stretching' which might have elicited a fraction of the responses or debate - though I did prefer the articles actual title "Stetching, the Truth" - and its excellent use of the comma.

In reply to AJM:
Warm ups are very effective for boosting performance.

Stretching improves flexibility if done regularly - good for climbing!

Stretching prepares the body for effort - good for climbing!

Is there anything else to discuss on this ?

In reply to julianwedd:
LOL what is this, a goats and cars thread?

In reply to gingerkate:

It isn't, warm up gently and stretch out as warm up progresses.

A good walk to the crag often provides warm up. At the indoor wall it would be nice to see static cycles and rowing machines to assist in warming.

In reply to gingerkate:

Wierd remark, I thought it was self explanatory.

In reply to julianwedd:

If noone else replies to you, I woudn't necessarily assume it's because the answer to your question is no.

In reply to julianwedd:
>

Only whether it's that you haven't read the article linked to in the OP, or the points made in the rest of the thread, or whether you have but failed to understand it.

In reply to julianwedd:

People will just use the climbing walls as a cheap way to use the cycles and rowing machines.

Now I don't usually or often like to say I'd rather the `wrong sort' didn't get into climbing, but the regular clientele of mainstream gymnasia have an intimidating cliquey competitive reputation that they have failed to quash these last few years, not to mention body fascism, adding to the obesity crisis. Probably because the gym owners are raking it in anyway, in contrast to wall owners.

In reply to Serpico:

Serpico, I was responding to the OP, excuse me for not reading the other 80+ posts.

In reply to Paz:

Do you mean to say that the 'fitness first' people will leave their gym in droves and commute miles to the nearest wall to see if they can get 40 mins in on one of the two static bikes there?

I just don't think there would be any harm done if climbing wall operators provided a small amount of warm up kit. I wasn't suggesting dozens of statics row upon row with MTV on multi screens and plug-in headphones.

In reply to julianwedd:



I suspect you did'nt actually read the article I linked to either.

In reply to julianwedd: >Stretching improves flexibility if done regularly - good for climbing!Stretching prepares the body for effort - good for climbing!Is there anything else to discuss on this ?

>Serpico, I was responding to the OP, excuse me for not reading the other 80+ posts.

You are not excused. It is excusable to skim read articles on the Net but then going on to post (spray!) something as inane as 'is there anything else to discuss' is rude as your comment is based on misunderstanding the article in the first place and then in effect rubbishing any subsequent commentary on this thread which by your own admission you havent read anyway.

Some of us want to learn. You arent contributing anything insightful, questioning or even amusing.

In reply to Simon Lee:

The paper and continuing argument is very interesting...

Perhaps the performance of a 'priming' climb (ie warm up climb where you aim for smooth movement, concentrate on your footwork, use a range of techniques, fairly easy for your top grade)is akin to dynamic stretching?

The importance of mental preparation seems to have been put by the wayside a bit too. Without adequate focus on the task in hand, injuries may be suggested to occur more frequently hence the need for a warm up (which encompasses a good deal more than stretching as is the general consensus here now).

Just my 2p worth!

In reply to Simon Lee:


Calm down Simon, does the above post contribute to the discussion in any way ?

'You are not excused' - Are you having a laugh ?

If so, nice one very funny.

If not, don't complain about a post offering f... all to the discussion and then do the same yourself, unless you were being ironic, in which case, nice one very funny.

In reply to Han_3:

I think there needs to be distinction between 'warm-up' and 'stretching' as they are two very different things. Although usually seen as complementary the article argues they might well not be.

A warm-up I would define as doing the activity at a much, much easier level (easy routes before climbing, jogging before running) and progressively making it harder as you warmup.

You might approach stretching in the same progressive way but it is a different enough sort of activity (granted stretching for holds on a warmup route is stretching) to treat separately, particularly as doing it immediately prior to climbing (as 'part of the warmup') it might be counter-productive.

As a separate activity (ie not part of a prior to climbing warm up)stretching to achieve flexibility/increased range is obviuosly useful for the inflexible.

I am still unsure on the distinction that might be made with pre-climbing stretching of the lower body given that with respect to climbing you are more likely to make better use of the flexibility but not the muscles in the legs that a pre-climb stretch might allow.

In reply to julianwedd: unless you were being ironic, in which case, nice one very funny.

Regard it as a form of mild mental exercise. Once you have warmed up on that 'koan' move onto the article and fully exercise your verbal reasoning, align it with your personal experiences and report back if you are fit enough.

In reply to Simon Lee:


Ya daft pompous bugger.

In reply to julianwedd:

They woulnd't leave in Droves but it might be a problem for climbers and therefore is a good reason not to buy something expensive just because you can't be arse to park 20 minutes away and run to the wall, or do some star jumps, non step aerobics.

" climbing wall operators provided a small amount of warm up kit. "

Waht do you think the walls and even slabs chock full of jugs are (apart from a hazard to fall off of)?

In reply to Paz:

Paz, it was a suggestion and doesn't merit fervent debate, besides I'm still working on Simon's esoteric koan.

In reply to Simon Lee:

Out of interest what is your opinion of the view in the rockfax tome on sport climbing on warming up /stretching.

It suggests a 5 minute warm up followed by about 15 different " light " stretches from the head to the the legs. They do suggest the stretches should not be to contortionist standard

In reply to neilh:

The advice of my physio coupled with my own idleness means I dont stretch prior to climbing and the article has endorsed that view and as I am supple enough where it counts for climbing ie lifting leg high onto holds and bridging I dont do it extracurricularly either. That is the extent of what I know. I havent read the rockfax book but it is not uncommon for experts to disagree. I dont classify myself as an expert but I am sure Julian has now joined a lengthening list classifying me as disagreeable.

Simon, I practice yoga daily and find it helps climbing enormously, not only in terms of strength, agility and flexibility, but also in terms of focus and anxiety regulation. Summoning chi/prana and directing to the areas where it's most needed is also a huge boost.


The 'koan' stuff and 'you are not excused' sounds pompous as f... though mate.

In reply to julianwedd:

Yeah but we know who he is and where he's coming from. How hard do you climb then?

In reply to Simon Lee:

Interesting my physio recommends stretching, but as he writes test books on it, I am not surprised!

Does strike me as a subject which is ignored when you are younger, but post 40 becomes more topical.

In reply to Paz:

Sounds like a 'can you piss as far as me?' sort of question, and a bit silly, but since you asked.

On sight trad - upto E3, best ever E4
Sport - upto F6c+/F7a, best ever F7a+

In reply to julianwedd:

Well yes. You'd probably piss further, but you'd be cheating using Qi.

But many of us achieve that level without using yoga. And you never hear of dedication to yoga amongst the very top level climbers, unless they specifically needed more flexiblity. Do you think you'd be climbing even harder if you spent the time doing yoga climbing instead? Apologies if you have or had a specific flexiblity issue or don't have the oppurtunity to climb instead of doing yoga.

But you know, me I'd stick to crimping on brick edges.

In reply to JimR:

A torn rotator cuff says that warming up and stretching is important everytime!

In reply to Paz:

I don't practice yoga to improve at climbing, I practice yoga because I like yoga, though the practice has helped in climbing harder routes with less effort and reduced anxiety.

In reply to julianwedd:

Do you have an identical twin that climbs but doesn't do yoga that you used as a comparison?

In reply to TimS:

Strange you should ask, but no, climbing just got easier and I could do harder routes.

In reply to julianwedd: sounds pompous as f... though

More used to being called arrogant but maybe I am losing my edge with age -I promise to try harder.

I have nothing useful to say about yoga but will refrain from taking the french.

In reply to Simon Lee:


Hey there, Boo Boo! He's smarter than the average bear ..

In reply to Murcantile: A torn rotator cuff says that warming up and stretching is important everytime!


A torn rotator cuff (if it could speak and had read the article) might say warming up, being stronger, being fitter might have prevented me tearing ..BUT.. stretching probably wouldnt have.

To use your logic and line of reasioning - I could equally say - I dont stretch and have never torn a rotator cuff (whatever that is) - THEREFORE stretching is BAD for rotator cuffs.

In reply to julian:
the point being how do you know the same thing wouldn't have haqppend anyway as you climbed over time and ditchd the yoga.

TimS:
I've got no twin either, but that would be so awesome! Team Paz would take the world by storm.

In reply to Paz:



Certainly would have stood a great chance of Gold in Morris Dancing!

In reply to Paz:

Paz
I had been climbing for 10 years before yoga, then began a daily yoga practice. My flexibilty, strength and mental state all improved significantly. Sorry, I have no empirical data, statistical analysis or twins to wheel out, just emphatic personal experience. So you'll just have to believe me...or not.

In reply to Simon Lee:

Jumping on V7 boulder problem without warming up or stretching! then ping! Ouch!

Says that warming up is a good idea! Try read between the lines not the bad typing Cornish!

In reply to Murcantile: Amongst physios the current opinion is that too much stretching before exercise (as opposed to cardio-type warm-up) can lead to problems. Stretching afterwards is much more important.

In reply to Glenachulish:

EXCESSIVE stratching! but light stretching is part of a comprehensive warm up and helps increase blood flow! hence warming up faster and better!

People will always go to extremes but gentle stretching is something i will always do now!

You might as well say Yoga & pilates is bad for you too if your gonna say stretching is bad!

Ps i do Yoga too!

In reply to Murcantile:

Seeing as you dont seem to be reading the article still perhaps it is better to quote it:


The outcome of an extensive studty was:

‘stretching does not significantly alter the incidence of injury’—caused the avantgarde of coaching to choke on their whistles. Other research has since supported that finding. Stretching does not alter rates of injury whether it is done immediately prior to or immediately after exercise, or on a regular basis. Being more flexible than your fellow geriatric is actually not a good marker for injury avoidance and may even put you in a risk category as some research suggests that people at either end of the flexibility spectrum have a slightly higher propensity for injury.

In reply to Simon Lee:

Stretching helps encourage better muscle balance which in turn helps prevent injury!

I dont need to read any article that disputes this as contradictory evidence will be put out soon enough!

In reply to Murcantile:

Muscle balance ? are you being antagonistic ?

If youve got anything new to add re contradictory evidence then share it or keep schtum -the "I know something that you dont" reminds me of the playground.

In reply to julianwedd:

Really, that's interesting. Was it 10 years of a weekly wall trip with the odd weekend though, or what. I've been climbing 10 years too. I can see the similarities between the two, that sometimes you have to hold stressful positions. Reminds me of torture.

In reply to Simon Lee:

He's just full of shit Simon, ignore him. I hope you're not getting wound up as much as you might appear to be. It's interesting some people can't appreciate the simple point of distinguishing between stretching and warming up, which may include stretching.

It's interesting (to me at least) to compare how much stretching they do before the race in this 1988 final:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vTM_mvA4kas&feature=related

Compared with this 2005 final:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YFNtQg4aQKE&feature=related

In 1988 they all stretched before getting into the blocks, in 2005 nobody stretched.
Climbing, as ever is 20yrs behind everyone else.

In reply to Serpico:

In the first one they do some posturing, touch the toes and not much else.

In the second they take their tracksuits off, get focused and race.

In both cases they have warmed up throughly and had a stretch out with the physio behind the scenes.

In vid two they retain the warmth with tracksuits.

Nothing out of the ordinary or revelatory. More data needed.

In reply to julianwedd:

Absolute pure speculation and you know it.



The data's out there, it's been mentioned previously in this thread, you just can't be bothered to read it.

In reply to Serpico:

I just don't think those two vidoes tell us anything of meaning. Yes, I speculate that the athletes will be warmed up, stretched out and throughly prepared for the event. None of the competitors would be there without through preparation. Assuming that no preparation took place in the dressing room would be naive.

In reply to julianwedd:

This isn't a thread about whether to warm up or not, this is a thread specifically about stretching.
http://faculty.washington.edu/crowther/Misc/RBC/stretch.shtml
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/325/7362/468
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/3/1179
http://iospress.metapress.com/content/7ntf2gl77uc0699q/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15903372