UKC

Moved to the Dales recently and been looking around for after work and short day crags for when I don't want to drive as far as the main gritstone areas or the moors.

Delighted to discover a pleasant little crag 10 mins drive from me, limestone loads of sun with a very short walk in and no polish. 36 recorded climbs from Mod to E1 in the guidebook available on climbonline.co.uk. However it needs some work, there is a bit of loose rock and the dirt on the routes, which leads me to suspect that it hasn't been climbed on for some time. Had an exciting time gardening and cleaning a few routes on Sunday and removing loose rock from the top. I've made an abseil point from some static rope and some old krabs to save walking off which is on top of the first buttress.

With a bit of traffic and work I think the routes would be much nicer then spots like Twistleton, which gets loads more visitors.

However the exciting bit is that according to guidebook there are loads of buttress with no routes on. The hardest route there is E1, but there are walls which the think would go at French 6b to 6c. Needs some one a whole lot bolder then me then me to lead them on maybe some bolts

Best bit is that these harder climbs look a lot more solid then their easier existing counterparts, so wont require the cleaning that the other routes do.

Does anyone know if any of these routes have been done and not recorded? Ethically is there a problem if I put some pegs or even some bolts in as its hard to protect limestone.

I'd be delighted to hear from you if you know anything about the crag.

In reply to Duncan_S:

That should of course read or some bolts/pegs. They would be near solos without them.

In reply to Duncan_S:

I climbed there in the late 60s, juts the easier corners, as you suggest most of them were pretty loose. Its the same with the other crags in Swaledale, the rock is thinly bedded (Yoredales) and often very shattered, though you may be able to clean up some of the steeper buttresses

Chris

PS if you want some 'proper' rock, Crag Willas is worth a visit.

In reply to Duncan_S:

do you have any pictures? sounds a good bet for at least bolt lower offs and the odd new bolted line.

In reply to Tom Phillips:

It's a fine little crag, in a beautiful setting, with its fair share of loose rock but no more so than on most limestone crags IME. Other than the vegetation below/on the routes (which wopuld be dealt with by more traffic), the main problem is that most of the trees at the top are dead or dying so you have to be careful which to belay from. But there are ample belays everywhere, absolutely no need for lower offs.

Whether there's a place for bolted lines depends on whether the battle has already been lost and bolting all limestone is now OK. I'd rather hope that it hasn't and it isn't.

In reply to Duncan_S:

Applegarth Scar? Is that by any chance an outcrop of Northern Rock?

In reply to Duncan_S:

I too climbed there in the late 60's and early 70's when I lived in Richmond (never met any other climbers there) and we assumed that we were the first as there was a fair bit of loose rock. When the Wilson and Kenyon 1980 guide to North of England came out, I recognised many of the now-named routes, so others had been there before, or had recorded their climbs while we hadn't.
The dozen or so routes we did were at their hardest VS. Some of the finishes were loose and the trees were either a help or a hindrance.

At the time, we asked the farmer for permission the first couple of times and later he said just come when you want, but don't die or leave a mess!

I do remember some thin looking faces, beyond our skills.

Ethics are your choice I suppose, and I admit we placed one temporary peg then, but why should you want to place bolts on this beautifully situated 10 metre crag?

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Another glorius evening! Got up to Hag Wood tonight which also seems a nice spot. I saw crag willas in your new book, but with the 30 min walk in, it can wait till we have more light or I have a day off.

Applegarth has caught my fancy though, if it was in the Peak it would be a lot cleaner and see a lot more traffic. It seems a shame that there are routes there that are not as they should be. I took some people there on tuesday night who enjoyed the routes I cleaned, without the showers of dirt and rocks that I sent down as I climbed them.

The idea that there may be new routes there is very appealing, Al Evans is to blame for this Sadly this is what I have on my doorstep and not Segaria.

In reply to Duncan_S:

There is a lot of dead stuff and loose rock at the top crag, but this can be cleared. I've removed some large boulders from the more left buttresses already. Some of the routes have become to vegetated to top out, I thought it could be an adventure to lead with shears and a saw and clear them up.

I don't think the amount of loose rock is excessive on the existing routes I've done so far, some have a fair bit at the top, but just myself and a second managed to remove much of it. I do agree there is no need for bolted lower offs as there are plenty of belays up top and the static rope and krabs above abby wall I've left should make abseiling easier. Unless of course you make sport routes.....

I'm not just going to do it and ignore others opinions, but am interested. If the place is worthwhile and deserves not to be bolted, then why have many existing routes been allowed to become unclimbable and nothing added past E1? It would be the steeper routes that would stay cleaner and have no loose rock on.

Bolting all limestone is not ok, if there are existing routes then they should be kept in honour of their first ascents, if they can be safely protected with trad gear then they should not be bolted, but if nobody has bothered with them since the 60's then maybe bolts should be allowed? It is beautifully situated and a fall from 3m, let alone 10m can be far enough that you don't walk away. Would anybody bother with Horseshoe if you had to climb it trad?

Haven't got any pics yet, will take a camera up next time I go. I will also clear enough dead wood out the way that a top rope can be rigged to climb some of these lines until I can get a better idea of how people feel.

I'll also use this thread to keep people updated on what I've cleaned.

So far

Abby Wall 14m VD - Removed loose rock and dirt, care still needed after toping out.

Cogden Crack 13m MS - Removed loose rock and dirt, care still needed after toping out

Chalk Crack 13m VS 4b - Removed loose rock, still quiet a lot of dirt and pebbles in the crack

Also found a buttress after Hale with no recorded routes on, but easy climbs, have done one about Diff/VDiff, removed lots of loose rock, but still some at the top.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

It's in Swaledale, Yorkshire

http://www.ukclimbing.com/databases/crags/craginfo.html?id=1132

In reply to Duncan_S:

Ah, yes. It was kind of a joke. Adam Applegarth... Northern Rock...?

You're right, best ignored.

In reply to Duncan_S:

Probably because the guidebook has been out of print for years.

Now available online
http://www.climbonline.co.uk/PDFs/Swaledale%20PDF.pdf

I'm still hoping there'll be space for it in the next edition of the NE England guide but my expectations aren't high.

In reply to Toreador:

I think its great that old guidebooks are being made available online, I'm using the one in the link that you've provided.

However there must are people know about the place and don't care about it enough not to let it fall to the history books. If they don't visit it why should they mind if bolts are placed?

When is bolting acceptable? Its a genuine question as I havn't been climbing long enough to remember the debates and bolt chopping before compromise was reached.

I assume you can't be tottaly anti bolt as your profile shows you've climbed sport routes. We do have some rather shoddy crags in the UK, that bolted up attract many visitors. Would they be so popular without the bolts? I'm not sure.

Anyway like I said my first actions are to clean up the existing trad lines and make it possible to climb them again. I don't think they should be bolted as it possible to protect them with natural gear. If there were bolted lines it could attract more people, who in turn, might climb the trad lines and help keep them clean. I think its rare that do exclusivly sport or trad. I loved the bolted faces in the Costa Blanca, but some of my best memories from the holiday were doing trad lines.