/ ACCIDENT REPORT: Millstone Sat 31/05/08

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Phil Robins - on 03 Jun 2008
What follows is a brief, cautionary tale regarding the danger of relying on insitu equipment. A team had decided to do London Wall an E5 6a at Millstone in Derbyshire. Preperations included finding a long stick and using this to clip the lead rope into the first piece of fixed protection, which was an old insitu peg, approx 5m up the initial overhanging crack which forms the start of the route.

The climber set off and climbed the crack quickly and efficiently passing the peg and going on to the next section of the route which traverses to the left. The climber did not place any extra protection being content to rely on the one piece of insitu kit. The climber fell at the end of the traverse with his weight coming directly onto the peg. The peg broke seemingly instantly and the climber landed heavily on his back on the ground. It was obviously a serious accident with significant injuries: a very quick and efficient rescue followed with a small helicopter landing close to the base of the route - impressive piece of flying!

I have described this incident not to be ghoulish, but to emphasise, especially to inexperienced climbers, the utter folly of relying totally on insitu fixed kit. Pegs in particular are rarely replaced these days, the one in London Wall could eaisly have be 40 years old! Ok occasionally you may have to rely on a single piece of equipment, but its good practice wherever possible to back things up. I do hope the injured party makes a good recovery, and apologies for using his accident to highlight an important issue without being able to consult him first!
Phil Robins - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:

Yes!
Franco Cookson OLD - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Phil Robins: poor guy. It is very difficult to place nuts at the level of where the peg was though. Would the disappearance of this gear possibly make the route harder? I was trying it yesterday and it seemed very difficult to place a nut near where the peg was. An easy clip into the peg would reduce how tiring and strenuous the route is, as the climbing is not too hard, but hanging around near the peg is.
Wilbur - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Phil Robins:

poor bloke - hope he gets well soon

i agree with your general sentiments, i know a few people who are strong but don't understand the term 'redundancy' when it comes to trad.
In reply to Phil Robins: Not going to comment on his ascent style - that was his choice but I do hope for a speedy recovery.
TomPR - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Franco Cookson:

You clearly need a little more experience in placing gear...
Michael Ryan - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to TomPR:

This thread is being closely watched.

Cheers,

Mick
TomPR - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Franco Cookson:

But in all seriousness, I think without the route is a touch harder without the peg. More placing gear effort and less psychological edge.
Franco Cookson OLD - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to TomPR: yeh, I wasn't saying it's E7 now, just that I imagine it's slightly more tricky now.
In reply to Phil Robins:

The peg in the crux of Embankment 3 is a similar looking bit of buried rust, which people regularly sit on and lob on - maybe it needs removing?


Chris
Tyler - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Phil Robins:

The picture shows the peg threaded, is this what they clipped or did they have the eye clipped?
In reply to All: Start another thread - this is about relying on in-situ pegs not the route grade.
Michael Ryan - on 03 Jun 2008
This is not a grade debate thread.
Coel Hellier - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Chris Craggs:

> The peg in the crux of Embankment 3 is a similar looking bit of buried rust, which people
> regularly sit on and lob on - maybe it needs removing?

Sounds as though it will remove itself at the point when it can no longer hold a fall -- and at that point, on Emb3 at least, the leader will surely have placed alternative protection.
Franco Cookson OLD - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Phil Robins: I take it people are against replacing the peg?
In reply to Coel Hellier:

As long as they didn't decide to 'go for it'. There is good gear below the peg, but the tat is very tempting, then there isn't much more to the top.

Chris
galpinos - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Chris Craggs:

I seem to remeber clipping peg, thinking it looked ok, then just boshing on to the top. Not sure where my last bit of gear before the peg was, I seem to remeber gettign myself into a bit of a fix getting apst the peg.
In reply to Franco Cookson: http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=37408

See Andy S's post on the picture - most of the finger holes used to be pegs but were never replaced so not sure whether the focus would be to replace it.

Reliance on old pegs is a judgement the leader has to make and if there is the possibility of back up then again as with this case it is the judgement of the leader. He didn't back anything up and an accident happened - this is not to say pegs will always fail.
In reply to galpinos:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
> I seem to remeber clipping peg, thinking it looked ok, then just boshing on to the top.

You proved my point, its been there for 30 years to my knowledge - so I suspect its crap!


Chris
Danger - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Phil Robins:

If can't fall on in-situ gear why is it there.

The route is graded for the use of in-situ gear.

The peg in question was tested, as well as possible, from the ground.

The route is described as 'safe as houses' in Eastern Grit.

The 'ethic' seems to be only replace in-situ gear after it has failed - even at Millstone - its a man made crag FFS!
richard kirby - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Franco Cookson:
> (In reply to Phil Robins) poor guy. It is very difficult to place nuts at the level of where the peg was though.

You could place gear above or below the peg - it's a crack after all.

The Midsummers(peg) thread of last week covers a lot of the pro's/con's on replacing pegs.

Generally, pegs, shouldn't be replaced thus avoiding this sort of accident being repeated every 10 years once its rotted again.

The grade wouldn't change without the peg...there's loads of gear.

Michael Ryan - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Danger:

Pegs in quarries are relics from the past.

One of the crucial skills of a climber is to assess the condition of old insitu gear.

It is very important to double up critical protection. Never trust a single piece of gear when its failure would have catastrophic results.

Mick
dunc56 - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to richard kirby:
Maybe a case of too much sport climbing and thinking it was bomber as a bolt "might" be ? I've been happy to clip the embankment peg before knowing full well it was just a psychological runner.
Monk - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Danger:

I think that generelly on grit the grade reflects the fact that a 30 year old peg is going to be crap. And London Wall is only safe as houses if you place some gear... It's a trad route not a clip-up.
Ian Jones on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to galpinos:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
> I seem to remeber clipping peg, thinking it looked ok, then just boshing on to the top. Not sure where my last bit of gear before the peg was, I seem to remeber gettign myself into a bit of a fix getting apst the peg.

I think you've got yourself into a bit of a fix with your keyboard.

gingerkate - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> One of the crucial skills of a climber is to assess the condition of old insitu gear.

Is there any way the more experienced climbers here can help the less experienced in developing this skill ... how's a beginner to know a good peg from a bad one? Any tips? Any photos of ones that you'd trust and ones that you wouldn't? Presumably the best option is to not trust any peg.

Danger - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to richard kirby:

> The Midsummers(peg) thread of last week covers a lot of the pro's/con's on replacing pegs.

Here it is

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=302157
richard kirby - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Danger:
> (In reply to Phil Robins)
>
> If can't fall on in-situ gear why is it there.

It's from a by-gone era dummy. Maybe you could ask the "rotting in situ gear Police" to remove it all for you.
>
> The route is graded for the use of in-situ gear.

Guide book writers perhaps credit most climbers with an ounce of common sense and presume we approach routes with in-situ pro with a sceptical view of its safeness!!

>
> The route is described as 'safe as houses' in Eastern Grit.

It is...whether the peg is in or not. There's loads of gear. It becomes unsafe when folk don't put gear in cos they trust pegs.
>


Horse on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Danger:

The point is placing reliance on a single piece of protection is not really good practice when there are opportunities for more gear. Placing reliance on an old peg of unknown vintage and probably dubious quality leaves little margin. The route may well be "safe as houses" if protected with with things other than just the peg, I have seen people repeatedly fall on on this route and go no further than their last nut or whatever.
Hugh Cottam - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to gingerkate:

There's no real black art to it Kate. If it doesn't look bombproof then you'd be best off having something else between you and the ground.
abarro81 - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Phil Robins:
I'd say leave the peg out, (or take out the remaining rusty bits if it frees up a placement?).. A friend fell onto this peg about a year ago and it held, but had a wire slightly below.

Tom: How's things? Did you get an email from me a couple of days ago? Just asking what flight details are for orco..
dave657 on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to gingerkate:

The problem with pegs is the most corroded part can be inside the crack, so it could still look fine. Best thing to do it just assume all pegs are crap, and back it up.
gingerkate - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to dave657 and Hugh:
Cheers!
Cragdog al - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Phil Robins: I think he'll probably have learnt his lesson with you harping on.

I fell onto the emb3 peg, (for psychological training) about 2 weeks ago and it held, it was backed up on a second rope but the peg took the brunt and seemed fine.
Mark Stevenson - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to gingerkate:
> Is there any way the more experienced climbers here can help the less experienced in developing this skill ... how's a beginner to know a good peg from a bad one? Any tips? Any photos of ones that you'd trust and ones that you wouldn't? Presumably the best option is to not trust any peg.

There is only ONE way to test a peg - that is to hit it with a peg hammer. However, since most of us don't carry them any more, the only thing you can do is consider them suspect.

However, what you can do is assess whether the placement is 'mechanically sound' - i.e. a downward pointing peg in a horizontal break is far better than one hammered into a roof crack. Secondly you can assess the state of the metal of the peg in terms of cracks and corrosion.

Unfortunately the only answer is to always back a peg up if it's failure is critical.

HTH

>

In reply to gingerkate:
>
> Is there any way the more experienced climbers here can help the less experienced in developing this skill ... how's a beginner to know a good peg from a bad one? Any tips? Any photos of ones that you'd trust and ones that you wouldn't? Presumably the best option is to not trust any peg.

The simple answer is treat them with great suspicion unless you know otherwise.

A few years back myself an Binky removed over a dozen fixed pegs in a weeks climbing in Cornwall, and left them hanging in the Count House as a warning.

They were removed by sticking a crab through the eye and giving them a good twist!!!!!!


Chris
Michael Ryan - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Cragdog al:
> (In reply to Phil Robins) I think he'll probably have learnt his lesson with you harping on.
>

Excuse me. Phil is not harping on.

This is a very important topic and some will learn a great deal from this unfortunate accident.

These forums are very popular and we may also have a news page item about it.

Thank you.

Mick
datoon - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Phil Robins: Maybe not relying on the peg would have been advisable. It seems a little silly that none of the pegs have been replaced recently? In the Lancs area its quite an active thing to be doing - cleaning routes and replacing pegs if necessary.

Alas this bodes of climbing wall ethics creeping in to trad climbing once again - well its been happening for some time now. How many people do you see hanging around on pegs thinking there 100% bomber. How many do you see hanging around on cams they think are bomber. Quite a few...
sutty on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

>There is only ONE way to test a peg - that is to hit it with a peg hammer.

Even then you cannot always rely on a blade peg in a gritstone crack that is vertical. I had one come out on me after that traverse when it was an aid route and only stopped about 10-15 ft above the ground after stripping several pegs, including the one in the picture.

Channel pegs are safer, and pegs in horizontal cracks.

Any peg should be examined before use for corrosion and cracked eyes, read my comments on the cracked eye on MSND on cloggy thread.
For you specially, keep a few old style krabs for use on pegs where the eye is close in to the rock, save your wiregates for other runners.
shark - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to TomPR:

Hey Tom - I knew you should have stripped that peg

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=110676
CurlyStevo - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Phil Robins:
I tend to think it is more responsible to remove pegs that are not going to be replaced once they start getting dubious rather than waiting for them to fail.
Al Evans on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to sutty: I was leading Desolation Row in Bossy's Great Zawn which had a situ peg (and not much else) in the description, it was very old and rotten, this was not so long ago.
I took one look and decided not to clip it, the lads I was climbing with were amazed and asked me why I didn't clip it, I just said that I had assesed it and I didn't think it would even slow me down, so I'd rather not be fooled by a false feeling of security with the bloody thing clipped.
Martyn Maltby on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Phil Robins:

I'm suprised that no-one has suggested that instead of clipping suspicious pegs, a better option is to tie them of with cord as close as possible to the rock. This would reduce leverage considerably, and I would certainly be happier with that arrangement.

When I aid-climb, we take little loops of swaged wire to "tie-off" pegs, and bolts that have lost their hangers, usually for body-weight, but the protection of wire may work better than cord in a fall.

Not bomb-proof I know, but better than nothing or a dubious peg.
I would always tie-off old pegs rather than clip them for protection.
bluebrad on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Martyn Maltby:
> (In reply to Phil Robins)
>
> I'm suprised that no-one has suggested that instead of clipping suspicious pegs, a better option is to tie them of with cord as close as possible to the rock. This would reduce leverage considerably, and I would certainly be happier with that arrangement.

If you check the picture link there is probably not enough of the peg available to tie off as you describe.

bluebrad
In reply to Martyn Maltby:
> I'm suprised that no-one has suggested that instead of clipping suspicious pegs, a better option is to tie them of with cord as close as possible to the rock. This would reduce leverage considerably, and I would certainly be happier with that arrangement.

That peg hasn't been clip-able for many years, it has been driven too far into the crack. I strongly suspect that what gave way here wasn't the peg but the tat tied into it.

Also I would be surprised if the peg was replaceable since it is so deeply buried. There are plenty of wires above and below though and perhaps the absence of this piece of fixed gear will actually end up making the route safer since there will be nothing to stick-clip and people will have to rely on their own wires.

No change in grade though since the peg is/was above the most strenuous move. This section is normally protected by a wire placed on lead from the ground, with a climb-down for a rest after placing it.

Alan
Aly - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
> (In reply to Martyn Maltby)
> [...]
>
> I strongly suspect that what gave way here wasn't the peg but the tat tied into it.

No, it was the peg that failed.
Al Evans on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Errrrr, if the peg broke, what is that picture all about?
gingerkate - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Chris Craggs and Mark:
Thanks for all the info!
gingerkate - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Al Evans:
I would think that photo is there to illustrate that a peg can look pretty ok on the outside, and yet the section hidden inside the rock be badly corroded.
James Jackson on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to gingerkate:

Oooo I dunno, by Avon standards that peg's pretty good.






Before people start preaching, I've done a fair whack of re-pegging in the Gorge in my time...
chris fox on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Phil Robins:

Just to let you all know.

The person in question (i am not revealing too many details) is ok, i spent sat night at hospital and sunday with him. I was the belayer so although not injured i was affected too.

His injuries are all repairable and he will make a full recovery.

I have already thanked the Air rescue team for their efforts and for those who were there and assisted and all the MR and paramedics that did a fantastic job both myself and the climber are much appreciated.

Please don't ask for either his name or 'what injuries' he's had as i will not reveal them.

Chris

Gareth H - on 03 Jun 2008
Mick Ryan UKC: have you asked the falling climber and those involved if they mind this being posted as a news item? apologies if it is in the threads,

Gareth
Enty - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Gareth H:

You mean like when the BBC or Sky News ask the family of an accident victim before reporting a news item?

The Ent
Gareth H - on 03 Jun 2008
Perhaps, I know this item has an 'educational' value but UKC does seem to be good at generating its own news, I say this after Mick earlier said he was 'watching this thread closely', presumably if the thread had been on the verge of being too critical of the climber it would have been pulled, I just find it bordering on insensitive that it has become a 'news' item. I'll probably get banned now for speaking my mind,

Gareth
Enty - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Gareth H:

Obviously I'm glad to hear that the chap is going to be ok. But is it not fair in this case to criticise him?

I was bewildered when I read the opening post. Instantly thought, climbing wall, youngster...lessons to be learnt.

The Ent
Nevis-the-cat - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to various


The only peg worth relying on is the one you wellied in yourself (wearing alpine hat), all the others are just psychological pro.

We saw the heli and Eskdale's neighbour go out to this one - hope the lad makes a full recovery.

Horse on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to chris fox:

Glad to hear all concerned will make a full recovery particularly the lobber.

Saw the chopper coming in to land the other evening while driving past, feared the worst.
Gareth H - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Ent: Without knowing the full circumstances (ie not being there) I don't feel its appropriate to carry out an arm chair analysis of his actions. Although there is quite a detailed account of what happened above I don't think it is appropriate in the case of someone seriously injured and gladly recovering to start being critical. We have all at times made bad calls and been in situations which could result in an accident, however I'm sure the climber will being going over events in his own mind for the next few weeks and does not need to be the subject of a UKC news item. This (the news item) is what I find in bad taste, you are right to say that the tabloids don't seek permission, but I thought the online community of UKC was more sympathetic to its audience (ie climbers)

I've watched with interest at some of the inaccurate and sensationalist reporting that has gone on this site over the last few months e.g. the Dave Mcleod 8c solo stories. However I have equally enjoyed some of the good quality articles too.

Just my 2 pence worth,
Gareth
ads.ukclimbing.com
gingerkate - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Enty:
I'll tell you why I reckon no one should post anything critcising the climber... what's the point of this thread (and the news item)? To learn from, that's what. To spread the word: do not trust pegs. If everyone knew that already, they'd not have been this accident, so obviously it's a message that needs spreading. The poor guy lying in hospital does not need a whole bunch of people telling him 'you made a mistake there'... I think he knows that! All he needs is our sympathy and best wishes. If we can't learn from other's mistakes without telling them off, we'll not be able to have accident report threads at all, because it's just too sour, when some poor sod is hurt. And we need these accident reports, to spread the word, because if the word isn't spread, the next person to make the same mistake may end up seriously injured.

Best wishes to the injured climber for a speedy recovery.
chris fox on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Horse:

going back to spend tomorrow afternoon with him. He wasn't looking fwd to making the forums, but i guess it's unavoidable under the circumstances.

I'll pass on that a few have sent their wishes.

The chopper crew were fantastic. The pilot had 4ft clearance on his right!

Chris
Gareth H - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to gingerkate: Thank you, my thoughts exactly and best wishes to the climber, I'm sure he'll be recovering long after the internet postulating has run its course.

Gareth
In reply to Gareth H:
> ...I just find it bordering on insensitive that it has become a 'news' item. I'll probably get banned now for speaking my mind,


It is a news item so that the message about pegs reaches more people and hopefully saves someone else from having an accident.

Enough said.

Jack
gjt on 03 Jun 2008 - user-54408239.wfd74a.dsl.pol.co.uk
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Not sure about this type of thread to be honest...This guy has made a decision on a route, which didn't workout and now he's being judged. Whether this was the intention or not it was bound to be the case. People love to point fingers and say "I'd have done it differently". Well maybe you would, but climbing (i like to think) is an escape where you are allowed to make decisions and not to be openly judged about it. We all know climbing is risky and to tell people to be aware of in situ pegs is not really news.

Hope this guy is OK and I hope he can get back to making bold decisions without the thought of the climbing world watching for mistakes.

By the way, don't walk on frozen ponds or skydive it's dangerous.
Mark Stevenson - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to various: I'm generally impressed that there seems to be more willingness recently to look at climbing accidents in an objective manner in terms of what (if any) lessons can be learned from them.

The continuing presence of large numbers of pegs on British trad routes is one of the biggest issues that needs to be resolved over the coming years and it is only right that accidents resulting for fixed gear on routes that can be rendered objectively safe is highlighted.

The fact that removal of the peg in question was publicly discussed here only 4 years ago makes it an even more pertinent topic for discussion by the wider climbing community as in hindsight this injury was doubly avoidable.

It's certainly a pertinent reminder to me personally about the correct (skeptical) attitude to fixed gear especially as I took a 6m fall on Vulcan last month that was held by a peg and could easily have turned into a major 15-20m fall had it failed.

Jamie B - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to gjt:

I agree. I'm never comfortable with threads where unfortunate climbers (or in some cases their grieving relatives) have their experience, motivations and decision-making analysed and often ridiculed by a kangaroo-court of people who weren't there. It encourages supposition and conjecturte, pays little attention to the shattered emotions (and limbs) of those involved and has historically shown UKC at it's worst. To see the "management" actively promoting this kind of discussion is frankly hard to believe, especially without the permission of the climber in question.

Jack, Mick, etc: It's a great website and your tireless efforts are appreciated, but this to me is a retrograde step.
thomasadixon - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to gingerkate:

Well said. I know it's not really safe but I'm sure I rely on pegs now and again. I'd bet he's not the first guy to trust that peg either.

Good luck to the injured climber.
Simon Caldwell - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Jamie B.:
> I'm never comfortable with threads where unfortunate climbers (or in some cases their grieving relatives) have their experience, motivations and decision-making analysed and often ridiculed by a kangaroo-court of people who weren't there

Same here. Fortunately (and I've re-read it to make sure) this thread has by-and-large avoided becoming one of those. Partly, I'm sure, due to a little editing from Mick.
Michael Ryan - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to chris fox:

Chris,

Please pass on our best wishes and a speedy recovery.

Hope you are OK too.

Mick
bluerockman - on 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Phil Robins: Completly away from the "in-situ gear" debate: I haven't read all the posts, but does anyone know how the fella is? Hope he makes a speedy recovery, and is quickly back on the rock!
AJH:D - on 03 Jun 2008
Glad this forum topic got lots of attention - even though I have never trusted pegs it has made me think alot more about what I should and should not trust. Hearing the news from you Phil on Sunday has made me think lots and I hope this topic is continued to educate all...without perhaps putting the poor lad in the spotlight!!

Al Evans on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Jamie B.:
> (In reply to gjt)
I'm never comfortable with threads where unfortunate climbers (or in some cases their grieving relatives) have their experience, motivations and decision-making analysed and often ridiculed by a kangaroo-court of people who weren't there. It encourages supposition and conjecturte, pays little attention to the shattered emotions (and limbs) of those involved and has historically shown UKC at it's worst. To see the "management" actively promoting this kind of discussion is frankly hard to believe, especially without the permission of the climber in question.

If you'd read what I posted that was pulled you would realise that Mick is indeed being compassionate and monitoring the thread with peoples sensibilities in mind.
In reply to Jamie B.:

First best wishes for a full and speedy recovery to the injured party. Hope you are feeling much better soon. And kudos to the rescuers particularly what sounds like some pretty fancy flying on the part of the pilot.

> I agree. I'm never comfortable with threads where unfortunate climbers (or in some cases their grieving relatives) have their experience, motivations and decision-making analysed and often ridiculed by a kangaroo-court of people who weren't there. It encourages supposition and conjecturte, pays little attention to the shattered emotions (and limbs) of those involved and has historically shown UKC at it's worst.

I understand your point of view, but I'm afraid you're wrong, because we live in a free society with a free press. It's that simple. We probably all read some threads on here on subjects we know something about from a professional point of view (so you on issues around mountain training, Horse on issues around metal gear failure, me on some of the politics threads etc. etc.) and you just think - "god, what ill informed crap", but then on other threads it might be us with the uninformed opinions. If people say stupid stuff, then they should get a slap either from the rest of the community, or by the site owners - but you can't ask people not to discuss genuine news and issues that effect us all mainly as climbers, but also more generally as citizens.

I think Mark's point about dodgy old fixed gear is a very fair point. It's a very grey area that somewhat makes a mockery of the trad ethic.
Michael Ryan - on 04 Jun 2008
ACCIDENT REPORTS AT UKCLIMBING.COM

On 08 May 2008 we ran Please donít tell my Mum by Mike 'Twid Turner ( http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=974 ) and followed that up with Accident Report Articles - A REQUEST ( http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=301520 )

Since then we have received several accident reports, some recent and some from several years ago, which we shall be running at UKClimbing.com periodically.

This is, as far as we know, a new step for the climbing media in the UK. The purpose is clear. The more knowledge we have about what can go wrong whilst climbing the greater chance that accidents can be avoided or prevented. Accidents happen to experienced climbers and the less experienced alike, no one is immune.

It is a delicate issue and we are sensitive to those who are involved in accidents. The purpose is not to point fingers or to ridicule but to learn and to help make all of us focus on what can go wrong.

Jack and myself had already made an editorial decision to run this story about this accident at Millstone last Saturday. We thought it important to focus on how unreliable old insitu gear can be. Phil Robin's has done a very credible synopsis of the events last Saturday and how such accidents can be avoided at the start of this thread.

We also ran Phil's words on the news page as not everyone reads the forums.

A REQUEST: When we run articles and discussions like this please refrain from making inappropriate comments and going off at a tangent. Yes we have already deleted several comments on this thread and also deleted new forum threads about it. We do not mind critical comments about whether we should run accident reports.

Thanks,

Mick




Horse on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Jamie B.:

I am not sure there has been very much judgement of those involved in the incident. Certainly it is nothing like some of the terrrible previous examples.

The value of a thread like this is in correcting the sort of ill informed views expressed regarding manking old in situ gear such as those posted at about 16.30 yesterday.

There is perhaps a fine line between learning from these things by discussion and insensitivity. I don't think the line has been crossed in this instance.
craig d - on 04 Jun 2008
I think it is a good thing publicising this type of incident. I have seen it on many occasions where sport climbing attitudes have been used on trad routes and people have got away with it. Unfortunately in this case the climber was not so lucky.

It also is a fairly normal occurrence on sports crags where the common use of stick clips sees people clipping not the first bolt but sometimes the fourth bolt and then proceeding to climb without clipping the other bolts up to the highpoint.

I guess the days of trad apprenticeships are long gone, so this type of forum is crucial in making climbers aware of potential dangers from bad practice that previously would have been pointed out at the crag. The trouble is i have had it before where you try and help people out at crags and indoor walls and been ignored, told that they know what they are doing or been abused.

It is a long time since i did london wall, but don't remember finding it difficult to back up the pegs with gear. Anyway i hope the guy makes a speedy recovery.
shark - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: The more knowledge we have about what can go wrong whilst climbing the greater chance that accidents can be avoided or prevented.



Not only that - whilst its bad enough hurting yourself the additional risk of then having your folly publicised on the internet is an extra incentive to avoid mishap in the first place
Chris F - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to James Jackson:
> (In reply to gingerkate)
>
> Oooo I dunno, by Avon standards that peg's pretty good.

Avon pegs are always good, for showing you where the route goes at least. All I ever used them for.
Will Hunt - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Danger:
> its a man made crag FFS!



Grrr. This argument never ceases to piss me off! So what if its man made?! Loads of the best crags (Millstone being a prime example as well as all the Dinorwig mines!) are man made and they should be treated with as much respect as natural crags. Sure ethics may differ from place to place but it shouldnt be a blanket ban on ethics simply because it was dug out by man. Is it OK to chip the Master's Edge or The Quarryman or Wellington Crack or even, heaven forbid, Monoblock?
chris fox on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Thanks Mick and all the other's that sent their best wishes. I'me heading over again today so will let him know there's plenty of activity about this subject. He's in for op's today so should be mobile soon.
gjt on 04 Jun 2008 - user-3e88e4a4.tcl112.dsl.pol.co.uk
In reply to Simon Lee:

Sorry Simon but do you really believe that?

Do you actually think that being ridiculed on a forum like this is an insentive to climb more safely? Come on...

Like I mentioned previously, when I'm climbing, I'm doing so as an adult making adult decisions, I'm not interested in what anyone else thinks, it's just me and the route and that's how I want it.

Threads like these are an opportunity to stop and gossip about individual decisions. I'd suggest that very few people have learned anything from this thread. Don't trust old rusty pegs...ok thanks. I don't trust loose blocks or thin roots either.

This guy made a decision he probably won't make again, but to pick over it like this is frankly boring.
gingerkate - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to gjt:
>Don't trust old rusty pegs...ok thanks.

I wouldn't have trusted a rusty old peg ... but I think I might've trusted a peg that looks fine, because whilst I'm sure I've heard before that they can look ok but be corroded inside, I'd forgotten it. I was sat at the belay attached to some pegs the other day, thinking, 'pegs, dodgy'... gave them a poke, decided they looked fine. Well, ok, it didn't matter, because we weren't relying on them, we were using our own gear too... but all the same, I think the message to never rely on a peg has gone a heck of a sight deeper into my head than it had before. And if there had been a thread like this two weeks back (with different route and climber I mean), would this guy still have had this accident? He might not have. And boring you, and causing some embarrassment to the injured chap is worth it if it stops someone breaking their back and being in a wheelchair for the rest of their life.

Only a fool thinks they never make mistakes ... let's learn from each other's mistakes without any smugness or finger pointing.

gjt on 04 Jun 2008 - user-3e88e4a4.tcl112.dsl.pol.co.uk
In reply to gingerkate:

You've said it youself...pegs, dodgy...then backed it up with your own gear.

Let's be honest here and admit there is very little to learn from this...old pegs are not to be trusted.. almost everyone has said it, the chap probably knew it too but took the chance as many will do in the future - his decision - end of.

This is not a news item.
Michael Ryan - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to gjt:

Hi,

Like many, you are thinking from your own perspective, "I know to back up fixed gear, so everybody else does."

Unfortunately that is not how life or humans work. Trust me on this.

Many thousands of people will see our accident reports that we are running - we all can learn from articles, forum discussions, news reports, seminars, books, word of mouth, rescue professionals, other climbers.

I disagree with you, this is a valid news item and forum discussion.

We'll just have to leave it at that.

All the best,

Mick
shark - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to gjt: Sorry Simon but do you really believe that?
Do you actually think that being ridiculed on a forum like this is an insentive to climb more safely? Come on...


Some people are more embarrased by different things but speaking personally I would regard an incident of my incompetence automatically being a matter of public debate as embarrasing in the same way that having to be rescued is embarrasing - perhaps you have the hide of a rhinocerous
In reply to gjt:

Two old pegs that stick out in my mind (if indeed they are still insitu) are;
1. On the second pitch of eliminate A on Dow.
2. On the step left on Through the looking glass at Hodge.

I should think these have been clipped hundreds of times by climbers that have not given a thought about backing them up, indeed I doubt you could.

So what should be done? Replace them like for like, remove them all together or put a much safer stainless steel bolt in?

Now the answer to that question may come down more to ethics than safety!


Horse on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to gjt:
> (In reply to gingerkate)

>
> Let's be honest here and admit there is very little to learn from this...old pegs are not to be trusted.. almost everyone has said it, the chap probably knew it too but took the chance as many will do in the future - his decision - end of.
>
>
You know, I know it and lots of others know it and then make an informed decision when climbing. However, comments such as:

"If[one]can't fall on in-situ gear why is it there."

Posted on this thread yesterday suggest that some don't know it and are not therefore making very informed decisions.

stevefromstoke - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to chris fox:
I hope your mate makes a full and fast recovery

back to the topic , Is it time for someone, bmc etc, to remove the old in situ gear? Some of the pegs are well old and if not removed / replaced more accindents of this type will follow

gjt on 04 Jun 2008 - user-3e88e4a4.tcl112.dsl.pol.co.uk
In reply to A Nidderdale boulderer.:

Hi,

well...I can see where you are coming from. Basically I don't want to be looked after on a route, so...I wouldn't replace them, I certainly wouldn't place a bolt...perhaps removing them is my prefered option, but I'm making these decisions for me, not for others. I think that's my main point.

If I was doing a route with an old bolt which couldn't be backed up, I'd retreat.

Do we know why the guy pressed on? Do we know what he was thinking or what his assessment was? No, but we'll all sit and shake our heads, tsk tsk.

His decision.
Michael Ryan - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to gjt:
> (In reply to A Nidderdale boulderer.)
>
> but I'm making these decisions for me, not for others.

That is universal, not unique to you. But it has to be learnt.
Dom Whillans on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Phil Robins:
hope the guy involved makes a full and fast recovery... i've always been lucky enough to hobble away from falls to hospital so my sympathy definitely is extended.
my tuppence worth on the issue, without resorting to having a go at the guy involved, who must have known what he was doing (and let's face it, you don't have a crack at an E5 without having substantial climbing experience under your belt) is that the advent of climbing's popularity has brought many new people to the sport who haven't had a experiential 'trad' apprenticeship... in fact you can get very strong and able very quickly by training indoors. this is great in the main but a lot of people haven't developed the "craft" of climbing to go with their physical abilities. whilst UKC is no substitute whatsoever for this lack of knowledge and experience, it is an excellent peer reviewing tool; i can't think of any other sport where you can 'virtually' rub shoulders with the leading exponents. The new accident files / database that UKC is develping will be a great way for us all to learn from the mishaps / close escapes that gives our sport it's inherent charm! American mags have for years had accident report columns - UKC will be a much better place to publicise these happenings because (assuming they post) we can all gain from each other's input. Personal 'digs' at people are not suitable at this time; in fact it's probably best if identities are kept private... we've ALL made stupid mistakes at some point (i untied from the rope at the first stance of my first multi-pitch - i knew no better at the time!).
I don't think it's the BMC's responsibility to remove rotting pegs and other kit. it's OUR responsibility as climbers; it's also our choice to use it or not. I've removed pegs that have been rusty / loose on crags in the past (sometimes not deliberately i may add, they've just come loose in my hand). If the accident concerned brings about a consensus view that rusty pegs / kit need removing then people should get on to it themselves where possible. it's a small matter to put up a post here asking whether anyone knows a good reason why it should stay in place. likewise if the accident concerned educates people that fixed kit of any kind is potentially unreliable then job done as far as I'm concerned - a worse accident may already have been prevented...

sorry for the length of the post, hope it makes some sense - it's not my usual flippant style.
Offwidth - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Simon Lee:

Unless he's given permision for UKC to discuss his failings I think people should be very careful on what they say here. How many critics were there, know the full situation and could read the climbers mind to know the full story. Its normal for people to make split decisions in climbing on progress (eg skipping runner placements) vs failure (ie forced to fall or rest on gear). Climbing is dangerous, even on well protected routes.
simes303 - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
> (In reply to gingerkate)
> [...]
> Unfortunately the only answer is to always back a peg up if it's failure is critical.
HTH
>
> [...]

Why would it be critical for a peg to fail?
dunc56 - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Cragdog al:
> (In reply to Phil Robins) I think he'll probably have learnt his lesson with you harping on.
>
> I fell onto the emb3 peg, (for psychological training) about 2 weeks ago and it held, it was backed up on a second rope but the peg took the brunt and seemed fine.

And was fatally weakened ready for the next sucker :)
James Jackson on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Offwidth:

Agreed - factual reporting of incidents is a Good Thing(TM). Uninformed criticism is a Bad Thing(TM).
Mick Ward - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to simes303:

> Why would it be critical for a peg to fail?

If peg failure guaranteed a hard landing - as, sadly, happened in this case.

Mick (with best wishes to the accident victim for a full recovery.)

cathsullivan on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to simes303:
> (In reply to Mark Stevenson)
> [...]
> HTH
> [...]
>
> Why would it be critical for a peg to fail?

If it is crucial; if it failing means either a very long fall or hitting something very big (e.g., the ground). In this context, if it's your only runner then it is vital that it is a good one (as much as is possible).
Bruce Hooker - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to the question of whether accidents should be discussed:

I think they should be, within the reserves of reasonable language and without too much flippancy. Often people get moaned at for doing so, usually with the bomber motive that the person's friends and family could be hurt, but I don't think this is the right attitude.

Often I've felt like making a comment about some tragic incident but have always refrained as it results in so much negative reaction but if we can all understand the causes of the accident then surely this would at least make something positive from the sad event? If those hurt or killed are climbers then I can't see them really objecting (if they could, of course!) to their surviving friends avoiding their fate by a frank and objective discussion.

In this case the lesson seems clear enough, if it comes out later that the circumstances were in fact different to those reported little real harm would have been done really so I reckon this is one area where reserve is not a good idea.

There are often fatal accidents in winter climbing and the cause looks obvious enough but no one dares say so... the following year we hear about more of the same, perhaps through making the same mistakes. Seems daft to me.
gjt on 04 Jun 2008 - user-3e88e4a4.tcl112.dsl.pol.co.uk
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Agreed...I'm not against discussing accidents if there is a real lesson to be learned. A fault is equipment design or misuse etc. This isn't the case here.

I've yet to see anyone say "Oh so you can't trust old pegs? Righto thanks for that!" Have a poll of 100 climbers and ask the question - I'd like to see the results.

People are willing to take risks, that is that, whether it is drinking and driving or standing on a chair to reach something. Telling people that this is dangerous does not change anything.

I know I've taken risks with gear in the past; I see guys soloing all the time what about that? It's up to the individual.
keith1973 on 04 Jun 2008 - 82.71.192.65 whois?
In reply to Phil Robins: Let's face it, it's not the thread that is to blame, it is the people who have chosen to respond in certain ways that have degraded what is a perfectly reasonable debate under the circumstances.
I wish the climber a speedy recovery as I am sure most do. However, the original message about learning from this error in judgement is and always will be valid.
I don't know about anyone else, but I thought as part of the climbing community we all have a duty of care to each other to pass on this kind of information. Just like if you see someone belaying whilst sitting down 20 ft away from the base of the climb, or if someone is about to set off on a route with their harness open or knot tied into the wrong part of the harness. Is it not all our responsibility as fellow climbers to get past our inhibitions and point these thing out to each other. It's not criticising, it's just looking out for each other. Which I'm sure was the the whole point of this thread, to inform each other that old gear, pegs/tat is not to be trusted as your only placement.
keith1973 on 04 Jun 2008 - 82.71.192.65 whois?
In reply to keith1973: That said though. had the climber in this instance read a thread like this before doing this route, would he have done things differently
sasmojo - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Phil Robins: Thanks for an insightful and sensitive post Phil, have only read a few replies.

Firstly, a wish a speedy and full recovery tot he climber, Chris pass on my regards.

Secondly, I am glad that in most cases these threads are started. It helps to provide information to us all and certainly is an excellent resource for the newer climbers, to understanding some of teh hidden dangers of climbing.

Last year I took a massive whipper on to an insitu peg and two cams I backed it up with. I am confident without the two cams, I would have decked harder and with more serious result as the I am postive the peg would have ripped.

Where you can guys and girls, back up insitu gear.
DannyC on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Phil Robins:

http://www.bakewelltoday.co.uk/news/Climbers-hurt-in-Peak-District.4152030.jp

Best wishes to the climbers mentioned in the story,

Danny
Enty - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to stevefromstoke:
> (In reply to chris fox)
> , Is it time for someone, bmc etc, to remove the old in situ gear? Some of the pegs are well old and if not removed / replaced more accindents of this type will follow

Absolutely not. I'll make the decision whether I think a peg is good or not and whether to back it up. Working things out like that is part of the fun. Being gripped above a peg which you know nothing about can be very exciting.

The Ent
Offwidth - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to keith1973:

"had the climber in this instance read a thread like this before doing this route, would he have done things differently" there is no way of knowing this and the answer would often be no. Its patently obvious old pegs should be backed up if you can but there are all sorts of scenarios that could explain why the indidvidual did what he did.

I've sat on the other side of this type of thread with relatives suffering from uninformed but determined-to-make-climbing-safer-right-now armchair critics. The so called 'lessons' were usually obvious and often inapplicable or irrelevant.

The way to do this is the way the Yosemite guidebooks do it: not immediate, annonymous, informed.

keith1973 on 04 Jun 2008 - 82.71.192.65 whois?
In reply to Offwidth: It was a rhetorical question and an addition to my previous post, did you read that?
Offwidth - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to keith1973:

Not getting at you, I'm answering the rhetorical question.

Firstly I dont think we should be discussing the details of this accident without his permission.

Secondly some people here don't seem to me to have taken in the impact of 'climbing is dangerous'. The only way to avoid climbing accidents is not climb. Risk reduction in climbing is always in the context of putting ourselves in harms way in the first place. In some climbs the climbing risks are enormous, are the climbers undertaking those risks completely irresponsible?

I think sensible public discussions of accidents must be within this context and at a time when the immediate emotions around the accident have subsided.
mrjonathanr on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Phil Robins:
Firstly I'd like to offer sympathy to the lad who fell off:bummer, everyone makes mistakes/gets bad luck.
One thing which surprises me in reading this thread (apart from those who presume to know what is in someone else's head when climbing) is the idea that
'something (perhaps) should be done about dodgy in situ gear'
Why?
Climbing's potentially dangerous, it's you vs gravity, what's wrong with that? If it is so that people are increasingly at risk on the crags after mostly gaining experience indoors, that's one for education through the BMC and the walls themselves, it's not the fault of ageing gear....
Very public spirited if someone wants to go and remove/replace bits of iron from grit crags, but it isn't necessary.
A full appreciation of what adventure sports can entail, and careful judgment by the individual in risky situations is.
Nothing needs to be done: it's just a potentially dangerous sport
Johnny_Grunwald on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to keith1973)

> I think sensible public discussions of accidents must be within this context and at a time when the immediate emotions around the accident have subsided.

There is a danger then of losing the potency and immediacy of the lesson-learnt element and regardless of some of the posts above, that we don't need telling that in situ gear may be dodgy, it will unarguably (IMHO) focus one and all the next time they clip into a rusty bolt.

(Best wishes to the climber for a full and speedy reovery)
keith1973 on 04 Jun 2008 - 82.71.192.65 whois?
In reply to Offwidth: Good point well made
BMC Office - on 04 Jun 2008 - www.thebmc.co.uk
In reply to Phil Robins:

Sorry to hear about this nasty accident. The basic lesson is that pegs are never 100% and can't be treated like bolts. Even brand new pegs can fail depending on the placement. I've seen a brand new blade peg snap on a short fall 1 week after being placed. On the other hand I've clipped pegs (in the Dolomites and other places) that are probably 30+ years old and which I felt at the time were still bomber. But you never know. If in doubt back them up.

Dave Turnbull
Jim Nicoll on 04 Jun 2008 - 89.240.194.47 whois?
In reply to Gareth H:
> I don't think it is appropriate in the case of someone seriously injured and gladly recovering to start being critical.

I think if I was lying in hospital all bashed up from a climbing accident, the last of my concerns would be what was being reported on a UKC forum.

If that peg on EmbR3 is over 30 years old, its doing really well as it must have been fallen on many times.
craig d - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
The error in judgement was stick clipping the peg, and treating it like a bolt. If the climber had approached the route in traditional style the peg would have been backed up by wires, as i doubt he would have soloed up to the peg.
gingerkate - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to various:
As has been pointed out, we have no idea what was in the climber's mind, he might have known exactly what risk he was taking and just been psyched to continue with that one untrustworthy peg.

But ... this actually has no bearing on the lesson that can be learned. Which is: pegs may well break. Some say everyone who climbs knows that already, I don't agree.
craig d - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I would of thought that by not stopping to put in any other gear, the climber had made the assumption that the peg was good, otherwise he was just being crazy.

I never accused him of cheating, was just say different approach, probable different outcome. I have stick clipped plenty of 1st bolts when sport climbing, just never considered taking my stick trad climbing.
Liam Dangerfield - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Phil Robins: Would just like to point out that I was incredibly impressed by the rescue service they were fantastic as well as the friends of the the climber who took the fall, as with everyone here is hoping to his speedy recovery. He had done this route before and looked very comfortable, but just mixed up the sequence on the traverse and decided to sit on the peg.
gingerkate - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Offwidth:

> The way to do this is the way the Yosemite guidebooks do it: not immediate, annonymous, informed.

I've changed my mind; I agree with your comment above.

johncoxmysteriously - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to craig d:

>I would of thought that by not stopping to put in any other gear, the climber had made the assumption that the peg was good, otherwise he was just being crazy.

Maybe, maybe not. It's not 'crazy' to go for it sometimes. You never did that?!

jcm
Enty - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to craig d:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
>
> I would of thought that by not stopping to put in any other gear, the climber had made the assumption that the peg was good, otherwise he was just being crazy.
>

He could have been supremely confident in his ability, an E7 leader and his foot just popped off. Bad luck. Which is why I've changed my mind from my post higher up.

The Ent
Adam Long - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply :

Word on the Sheffield grapevine is that he'd already made one ascent of the route that day, in fine style, and was repeating it for the benefit of a camera. I'm sure that was why a clipstick was used to clip the peg, rather than to aid someone getting out of their depth.
chris fox on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to craig d:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
> The error in judgement was stick clipping the peg, and treating it like a bolt. If the climber had approached the route in traditional style the peg would have been backed up by wires, as i doubt he would have soloed up to the peg.

You have absolutely no idea of the guys climbing ability, this is a ridiculous statement.

chris fox on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Adam L:
Well as you have said this i should correct it.

He very nearly onsighted it a few weeks ago (fell 4ft from the top), got it 2nd shot. Yes it was for the pictures.

He had actually re-climber White Wall as he had previously climbed this a few weeks earlier and wanted a clean ascent of it.

I have heard from a friend that some people in Llanberis gear shop were criticising him today and saying he's a sport climber who got it wrong. He's a very strong sport and Trad climber with plenty of onsights of hard routes.

Thankyou Adam, finally someone has actually defended him rather than pick holes in him.

For the genuinly concerned, i drove over to see him today, got 15 miles from hospital and got a call to say he was in for his op's. Will be heading up to see him tomorrow and see how he is.

Chris
Michael Ryan - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to chris fox:

Thanks Chris.

Gareth H - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Adam Long & Chris Fox: this is what concerned me yesterday, who are we to judge a person and situation of which we know very little about. I hope some of the contributors to this thread feel guilty and UKC feel responsible for this, I have also read some very balanced and considered views. I know (and agree with) all the arguements about the education of climbers about in situ gear etc, but some of the frankly ill informed views expressed on this forum about the actions of the climber and assumptions of his ability and decisions have digusted me. In summary the decision to 'educate' in this manner I feel was inappropriate.

Best wishes Chris to your friend, I hope he feels better soon and ignores the arm chair critics who frequent UKC.

Gareth
chris fox on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I didnt really want to say too much, he doesnt go around bragging and doesnt really go on any forum sites, just goes about his way climbing classy routes and in good style. I just couldnt sit by anymore and watch people pick holes in him without actually knowing any facts.

Liam was there and wrote a positive reply.

This thread is supposed to be about the failings of pegs and not to take them for granted. Not to belittle a person for having a major accident. My friend is the last person to place blame on anyone.

I find it a shame that others can't follow his magnanimity.
chris fox on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Gareth H:

Thanks Gareth
Michael Ryan - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to chris fox:

The speculation sucks Chris.

Phil Robins got it just about right in his first post.

> This thread is supposed to be about the failings of pegs and not to take them for granted.

Exactly.

Peace to you and your friend.
chris fox on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Thanks Mick, i am not replying to anymore posts on this topic, it's turning sour.

I'll email yourself, and text the people who were there on the day with news of what resulted with the ops.

Chris

over and out
Fex Wazner - on 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to Danger)
>

> It is very important to double up critical protection. Never trust a single piece of gear when its failure would have catastrophic results.
>
Was climbing Bovine at teh crag near llyn Gwynnant at the foot of snowdon on sat.

There was one good handhold that you could fill with some good pro and an old peg above. I chose to put gear in the hold and go for a move far harder move than 5a just because i didn't trust the peg. the gear beneath me was crud too.

Fex.

Michael Ryan - on 05 Jun 2008
Thread closed.

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.