UKC

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

It's a pity there isn't a better photograph of this line around (unless there is - anyone?).

The one you've used I've seen elsewhere, but I suspect this thing is more gob-smacking in real life than in that shot - it doesn't really capture the angle at all.

jcm

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

the commentator seems to get rather excited by Dave's antics about half way through the video!

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Sound like something out the Ben Dover series.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Excellent. Great to see such motivation and talent in action.

So much exciting stuff happening at the cutting edge of British climbing these days, hard headpoints, redpoints, onsight trad and sport......and off-widths!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mick

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Check out Dave's foot work. Precise or what. Every time I try to be ultra precise, I end up either missing the right spot or having to have a foot shuffle / wiggle to the right spot or using more energy hanging on looking at where I place my feet. I've not tried a bat hang yet, one to practice at the wall on a rope I think.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I went to a lecture by Dave a few weeks ago at which he showed a better photo - it's a truly impressive line.

I love the way dave doesn't make everything look easy - he puffs, sweats and grits his teeth just like the rest of us (although maybe the rest of us need more than three molcules before we can call it a hold).

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC



Due to Obvious links between UKC certain climbers/magazines i am trying to write a line or two that wont be censored by the evil empire lurking behind my key board .

Why do i feel that this web site is a certain top climber(s) appreciation society web site.

Surely there are other people out there doing new routes routes,not just people @ Dum barton


I cant help but ask the innocent question were these routes quite possibliy done, and perhaps not, purely for satisying someone(s) sponsors requirements - on both sides of the water ?

Hence trotters ( or whatever his name is )lack of travelling to other routes in the UK to really hard serious trad routes....or not.

Is being a top end sponsored climber being like a junkey and chasing the dragon ,i.e where is the next fix ( hard route ) coming from in order to satisfy the sponsors , and hence the gullable public.

I'd have thought that Indian Face on Cloggy was the most hardest trad route in the world.(but thats a different question, hard vs serious )with no jugs to avoid .

That route cant be accused of being an elminate .

In reply to mrmcclown: I see what you did with your user name... very droll.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Is there still snow on the Ben??


GM

If i was dave M, I'd just bloody bolt it!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Let me at 'em

<hijack by the way - check my gallery shortly>

In reply to gingermonkey:



It's there all year round.

In reply to mrmcclown:

Why is it that whenever a top climber is dooing something amazing, clowns like yourself feel the need to knock it, question it or simply being ignorant about it.

Being an very low grade climber myself, i feel inspired by these guys and they should be applauded by their efforts to nail climbs that for most of us are simply impossible. Further, it also guys like Dave are great ammbasadors for the sport and should be cherised rather then knocked down or critised.

Sorry - find your post ignorend and totally out of place

In reply to stan:

PS - Please don't start on the typo's ...

In reply to cider nut:

http://widefetish.com/

Here here! Stan on both your replys.

In reply to geezer:

its a here here from me to

In reply to mrmcclown:

Tried to write a serious response to your post and gave up because all I could think of was that your you have just written what was perhaps the biggest load of bollox ever to appear on this site.

Just try and appreciate others achievements and try and smile you may just enjoy it !!!!

In reply to kipster:

indeed, full of factual inaccuracies and very bitter

In reply to gingermonkey:
If you read Dave's blog, he spent 3 or so days shovelling snow from the top of the echo wall so that the meltw*ter wouldn't keep running down the face. Hard work to say the least.

In reply to mrmcclown: Why is sonnie going to cross the atlantic to do a 5.12c X (Indian Face)????? There are plenty in the states! Sonnie saw the E11 film at the Banff MFF when it was previewed, and was really excited by the shear difficulty and style of the route (no bolts).

Andy

In reply to Chris F:

I love the way melt water gets censored.

In reply to dread-i:

Re footwork: He has the problem wired as he's been working on that link as a project. If you are working something at your limit then your footwork should be bang on - you're certainly not going to succeed if it's not. It's true that it's always nice to see someone climbing properly though!

In reply to mrmcfool:

kipster saying that what you wrote was the biggest load of crap ever posted on here was making a big claim as these boards are filled with more rantings of utter sh*te than anywhere else I've seen. However, he was right. Go and have a quiet word with yourself.

Re Echo Wall. This route worries me. It's SO much more serious a proposition than anything anyone's undertaken previously. I mean 8c+/9a but with death fall potential has to be more than one grade up from Rhapsody and as this is the hardest grade Dave M has climbed the margin for failure (and therefore death) is tangible. Soloing a little 8b+ (or soft 8c) is one thing but this is another completely. I know Dave takes a scientific and "one step at a time" approach to what he does to minimise the risks but when it comes to a death route 8c+/9a there's only so much minimising you can do. I don't think most people can comprehand what a huge undertaking this is. You can see the motivation as Echo Wall would be one of the most significant steps forward in trad climbing in years. Miles ahead of anything else. But as I say, it worries me. Good luck Dave.

In reply to seagull:

It worries me as well which was why I was relieved that he had started concentrating on his sport climbing. At the end of the day, though, there is only one person who can make the call.

In reply to GrahamD:

The sport climbing is training for Echo Wall!

I am reassured by the fact that I've seen Dave back of a route he's not happy with. I'm concerned because he's only human, and even he can make a mistake, and the consequences of a mistake are so very serious in this instance. As you say, it's his decision.

In reply to mrmcclown:

I think you are trying to make an interesting point. To what extent are sponsored climbers driven by their sponsorship to *choose* the objectives they do ?

Its a shame that we can't have open debates like this without a load of sycophants chipping in with its not ours to question why. I don't see why its not possible to debate motives, grade, quality of line WHILST AT THE SAME TIME appreciating a phenomenal achievement.

In reply to seagull:

***wild speculation***

eventual success on echo wall would maybe put Dave Mc in a position where his head and physical ability could flash Indian Face? That would be the coolest step forward in British climbing.

In reply to Dom Whillans:

That is wild, he's already toproped it.

In reply to Dom Whillans:

He's already been on it and decided not to do it, though.

I agree though that this is an iconic achievement waiting to happen. We had a thread in 2002 or so on when it was going to be done. My spread was 2012-2014. It would be vaguely interesting to rerun the exercise now.

jcm

In reply to tony:

Yeah I agree with you & GrahamD. Of course it's his call and he seems to be one of the most level headed climbers around. It's just that I'd want to be redpointing (at the very least) 9b before I attempted 8c+/9a with death potential. I'm pretty sure Dave isn't planning on getting to that level before attempting this route and that's a scary thought (to a chicken sh*t, girls blouse like me anyway). I don't think most people really get how hard 8c+ (let alone 9a) is.

In reply to seagull:


Likewise. Though it least it's a headpoint so Dave should know the risks very precisely. I feel more unsettled by the way this site (and other media) have become cheerleaders for onsight ascents of bold+hard+loose routes. I have enormous respect for people playing that game but I hope their motivation is entirely personal and they are not getting swept along by the media hype.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: An onsight ascent of the Indian Face would be a near suicidal moment of madness and really shouldn't be promoted or hyped up to be 'the ultimate' climbing achievement.

The nature of the rock, the style of the climbing, the fact that death is guaranteed in a fall, the fact that it leads you very high and gets progressively harder leaving you in an irreversible position, the blindness, the snappy-ness...

Climbing F9a in no way makes your foot less likely to slip from a lichenous smear...

Discuss!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: This thread, John?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=75325&v=1#1005069

I reckon I might still be in with a chance on 2008 y'know, but for 'Leo Houlding' read 'Neil Dickson'.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Ah yes .... I remember that and have a worrying feeling I put on quite an aggressive bet on those odds. Hopefully the thread has been lost and not archived.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Well, that's what they were saying about Black Wall in 1920, of course.

Climbing 9a makes your feet less likely to slip, surely, because 9a climbers are better at putting them in the right place than the rest of us.

jcm

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

I agree, totally.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:



It's not chess John.

I think the skill set in climbing a sport 9a might just be a little different than climbing the Indian Face.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:


As Dave's E11 route has taken numerous big whippers, and with the general outlook that world events are taking, on reflection; Isn't this be what the ultimate climbing achievement has to be about

Death or Glory!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Nice try. Since the thread had been found ... I can remind you that your market was 2014-2016 and I am short at a pint a point.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
>Well, that's what they were saying about Black Wall in 1920, of course.
I expect every climbing generation has had its share of death routes that "will never be repeated", from Puttrel onwards. One can speculate that in 50 years time there might be some new bit of kit that makes it safer and so repeatable.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC and also toby:

Yep. I keep getting this thought that we're acting like a bunch of cult of ana enthusiasts egging people on towards death.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Different, obviously, but overlapping.

What's happened to all those Rich-Simpson-would-piss-up-Indian-Face enthusiasts I recall from another thread, then?

Peter W, that's the one - thanks. Not 2002, then. And based on that - TobyA, you obviously owe me a pint. And tobyfk, I think placing aggressive bets in pints and then emigrating to a dry country is pretty damned low!

jcm

In reply to gingerkate:

The pornography of danger, as they say.

jcm

In reply to tobyfk:

You may.

I think events have moved in your favour (quite apart from your emigration, that is). I'd be shorter now.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

But they're more used to steeper stuff so they're all, apart from Steve M, complete clowns on slabs and regularly fail on 3PS.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Steve Mac slipped off the slabbyish start of seventh aardvark this year.

No one is immune to slippage.

In reply to gingerkate:

I doubt that when someone is weighing up their chances on a death route, the wild speculation of a forum of baying hordes holds much influence in their decision making process.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

http://www.ramonjulian.com/videos/marialba9a.mpg

(right click, save target as)

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Would tend to think 2012-2014 still looks a good bet for an On site of Indian Face. Would not want to predict by who but probably by some youth thats aged between 12 and 14 at the moment.

If I had to bet on someone from the current crop then Neil Dixon would be my tip

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Assumptions ... John ... assumptions. This isn't Saudi.

In reply to Chris F:

I think you might be surprised, actually. It's easy to say that but I'm not sure we know much about what does and doesn't drive people to do these things.

jcm

In reply to Simon Lee:

It's probably fair to say he'd be concentrating rather harder if the slabbyish start of SA was half-way up Indian Face, though.

jcm

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:


i said flash, not onsight! i know he's done it on top rope before. Death is guaranteed for us all anyway... 6c slab moves should be well within a lot of people's grasp, particularly Dave Mc; friable rock, FA protection and a long fall have a huge effect, which is why I speculated that the mental fitness developed by training for and climbing Echo Wall head could be a good precursor to flashing IF. Could does not mean Should!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Straying further off the point cionversely he might be overwhelmed by the FEAR and smitten with legshake. Less academically Dickson slipped on Margins when downclimbing. We all will have experienced unexpected foot slippage not necessarily on the hardest moves or when we are concentrating the least - certainly not in a directly proportional way though these are factors which might be attributable as are conditions.

In reply to Dom Whillans:

That still wouldn't be a flash according to how I understand the term. Maybe we could compromise on 'do'?

jcm

In reply to Simon Lee:

>Straying further off the point cionversely he might be overwhelmed by the FEAR and smitten with legshake.

Well, indeed he might. But that wouldn't be a random event, as some seem to imply.

I remember a sports-climbing acquaintance saying to me once after appearing to the uninformed viewer to fall off a route, 'I didn't fall. My foot slipped.' Extreme perhaps but I sometimes feel this is the view a lot of people take. When my feet slip, I always assume it's because I'm crap and didn't place them properly and/or place my body correctly to weight them right. Isn't that so?!

jcm

In reply to GrahamD: 'To what extent are sponsored climbers driven by their sponsorship to *choose* the objectives they do ?'

I went to a lecture by Dave a few weeks ago, and someone asked him this very question. He said that in his case, rather than being pressured by his sponsors to attempt particular objectives he found that they were rather taken aback when they heard what he was hoping to do.

As for the Indian Face, he said that after his attempt on it he went back home and watched a video of Johnny Dawes on a section of it. He realised that he had been climbing a little too far to the right, and went back to examine the climb last September. Dawes' line was significantly less snappy, and a rematch is not out of the question.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

out of interest, as i dont have the guide book to hand, how do you access this route ? is it a down climb on tower ridge and then out the eastern traverse or something ? or am i in the wrong area ? i might be going up tower ridge soon so would be interested in looking at it (literally, looking at it !).

ahunter

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I think you might be surprised, actually. It's easy to say that but I'm not sure we know much about what does and doesn't drive people to do these things.


Drawing embarrasingly from personal experience I remember offering to attempt to onsight solo Lubyanka to Paul Williams as I didnt have a partner available and he was guaranteeing that a photo of Lubyanka from Main wall, which he was doing that day with his son, would make the guidebook - how stupid would that have been ?.

In reply to John2:

That's interesting. I always thought it was odd that Dave said it was snappy when nobody had mentioned this before and Neil came out and said that the quality of the rock was not an issue.

In reply to seagull:
Indeed,Just watched Ramon on sandstone 9a. Its a pity the worlds best climbers have no interest (apart from Steve Mclure) in our trad routes. It would be interesting to see what someone who can onsight 8c plus could headpoint after 2 years of top rope practise....

In reply to seagull:

Great video by the way. Annoying changes of angle which mean you can't really get an idea of how steep it is, but inspiring none the less.

Where is this area anyway? Do they have any easy routes there.....

I thought Echo Wall has near Comb Gully and that CG was not that near Tower Ridge, but I could well be completely wrong.

jcm

In reply to Simon Lee:

LOL. I'm surprised PW turned you down.

My personal PB in the area of this kind of stupidity is arranging to make a naked ascent of Rude Nude at Blackchurch. Luckily for all concerned it rained.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I always assume it's because I'm crap and didn't place them properly and/or place my body correctly to weight them right. Isn't that so?!

Impossible to prove one way or the other for each instance especially as it happens so quick. I am not sure-footed on this topic as I avoid slabs whenever possible.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I'm surprised PW turned you down.


Given the way he egged Moffat into doing Masters Wall I can only assume he had less faith in my relative ability to the task in hand.

Where you after the Rude Nude snap for a university climbing journal by any chance as it would be a perfect place for it

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Absolutely.

In reply to Dom Whillans: I dont think the defimition of Flash allows for prior toproping however dangerous the route...

In reply to Simon Lee:

I wasn't after a Rude Nude snap at all, in any sense of the word 'snap'!

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Im surprised it wasnt the underlying motivation - the caption - "Cox out on Rude Nude" with you sticking up the Vs at the camera would have been priceless

In reply to Simon Lee:


Or the Vulgarian Digest?
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u172/jeremywerlin/vulgarian.jpg

In reply to Simon Lee:

>Cox out on Rude Nude

Cox flashing Rude Nude, shurely?

jcm

In reply to duncan:

Funnily enough we were also hoping to emulate that when we were there. But these days it's really a bit popular and close to the road.

I wonder if the road was there in those days?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
In that case they are silly enough to have to accept the fate they are dealt, one way or the other.

In reply to Chris F:
We're animals as well as humans. Peer approval is a huge issue. These things don't necessarily work at a conscious level.

In reply to Chris F:
Chris, did you know that when a woman is ovulating, and is asked to 'do a twirl' in front of a male researcher, she does it more slowly than when she's not at the fertile point of her cycle?

We're animals. Beings animal doesn't make us stupid. But it does mean we do things that we don't know we're doing.

If I'm not right that the climbing community's attitude matters to cutting edge climbers, why do so few climbers do this total hardcore stuff and keep silent about it? Why even tell anyone anyway? Of course, some do, but most strut it, and for good reason.

In reply to gingerkate:

That must be why lapdancers get fewer tips when they're not so fertile. They don't twirl fast enough.

You're right of course: CF is being a berk. I'm tempted to wheel out Ed Drummond's wonderful observation from the Ynys Ettws logbook again, but I find I can't remember it exactly.

jcm

In reply to martin heywood: my understanding of 'flash' is that you can have some prior knowledge / experience of the route, spend time doing other things then get straight back on it for a lead. my terminology may well be wrong. i accept that. I personally go with JCM's approach of "did it" rather than any other kind of terminology...

In reply to gingerkate:

Colin Mortlock used to make his climbing partners swear not to tell anyone where they'd been or what they'd done.

Mind, I think he ran out of climbing partners. Took up solo sea canoeing and Outward Bound stuff, I think.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I just love the fact that Hans Haidegger apparently got as far as the Death Bivouac, soloing the Nordwand in 1937, and hardly told anyone. Very cool.

ps And down again, safely. Even cooler.

In reply to Dom Whillans: "Doing it" as in headpointing it then. What do you mean by doing other things? Sorry, I am a little bored, feel free to ignore this comment.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: looking straight at the N face Echo wall is on the left side of tower ridge. its not immediately obvious how impressive the piece of rock is. you'd get good views from observatory ridge.

Anubis was Daves other ben rock route and was done on the Comb which is right to towere ridge

In reply to andy hunter:

Ascend the lower Tower ridge with great gusto then strike a pose on the traverse of the little tower, Echo wall is below here.

Krusty the clown, you cynical bad boy, all good points, has the commercial side of climbing become the engine that drives the leading lights - well of course in this capitalist system, they need to earn brownie points but come the revolution!.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

It's called Savassona and it's in Catalunya, near Barcelona apparently. Looks like there's stuff of all grades and it looks really good.

http://rotpunktholds.blogspot.com/2008/01/savassona-sant-feliuet-via-lactea...

In reply to martin heywood:

"doing it" to me means onsighting, flashing, dogging, head pointing etc. etc.
what do i mean by other things - trying IF for a couple of goes on top rope, leaving it for a couple of years, going on to climb new projects then coming back and getting straight on the lead.

In reply to Dom Whillans:

Retroflash.

In reply to seagull:

>"I always thought it was odd that Dave said it was snappy when nobody had mentioned this before"

Is it not Johnny Dawes who uses the word "snappy" in the Committed DVD?

I suppose Dave Macleod may have paid him to say it...

In reply to seagull:
"Bolloxpointflash"

In reply to JLS:

I don't know but didn't Dave Mc attempt (and make those comments about) IF before that film came out? Irrelevant anyway as the point that's interesting to me is that it seems he was on the wrong line.


In reply to martin heywood:

If you like! But an ascent when you've tried something ages ago and then come back and do it first go has been called a retroflash for years. It's technically still just a red/headpoint but is generally seen as a pretty good effort too.

In reply to seagull:

I think Alan James calls this a 'Hindsight'

In reply to seagull:

>"I don't know but didn't Dave Mc attempt (and make those comments about) IF before that film came out?"

Yes but it is also likely the sequence was filmed before the film came out. I don't know who said "snappy" first but it would seem strange that Johnny Dawes would also use the word if it didn't have some basis in fact.

>"Irrelevant anyway as the point that's interesting to me is that it seems he was on the wrong line."

I didn't know that one, how did that come to light?

In reply to JLS:

Er.....read this thread? He told some bloke at a lecture. Don't start quoting me on it as it's the first I've heard! If true it's interesting imo.

In reply to martin heywood:

word!

John2:

In reply to John2:
Dawes' line was significantly less snappy, and a rematch is not out of the question.

cant wait to see the news of this attempt ...

In reply to seagull: Yes, I agree. I generally fail on anything that I managed to onsight if I get back on it. My only real gripe with all these terms is that they can be pretty meaningless. For example you can onsight a sport route with the quickdraws in place, every hold chalked brushed and even tickmarked, but if you happen to have walked past the crag and not turned your head away when someones been on it you cant, even if you climb it in the dark putting in the draws wearing trainers.I was just about to start on headpointing but maybe not a good idea...

In reply to duncan b:

Didn't he just?... I have a sneaky feeling that he might have achieved orgasm when Dave got to the rest halfway along the traverse.

In reply to seagull:

>"and a rematch is not out of the question"

Solo, as a mental warm-up for Echo Wall...

In reply to Ian McNeill: What is so exciting? It was repeated twice, about ten years ago.....

In reply to martin heywood:

Not wanting to get into the old "what constitutes onsight" bollox but that's not entirely correct. Onsight means with no knowledge of the route so if you briefly saw someone on it but didn't gain any beta from what you saw then you've not blown the onsight. The vaguaries of terminology can be a right load of crap though, I agree. One knows oneself if something was onsight or not. If something you saw or heard had a bearing on whether or not you got up the route/problem!

As I said, a retroflash is still technically just a red/headpoint so it's not confusing the issues any further. Just the term that best fitted what was being described earlier.

In reply to seagull: Interesting! I agree that you always know the "quality " of your ascents but had thought there was no space for this within the definitions.As far as beta goes, as often as not this is a hindrance(to me personally). Try sport climbing with a load of Spanish people shouting unwanted beta at you all the way up a route...

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Awesome video

In reply to martin heywood:

not ground up though!

lots of practice beforehand though ... still awaits the ground up ascent.

In reply to Ian McNeill:
So Dave Mcleod attempted it on sight then?

In reply to martin heywood:

your point ?

to me
ground up is to on sight ... as is red is to burgundy .... just a different shade of the same...?

In reply to Ian McNeill:
My point is did he tie in and start climbing ground up? If so fair play to him, it doesn't sound like his usual approach.

In reply to martin heywood: hes not the first to take this approach ... did he turn in to masters wall ?

In reply to Ian McNeill:


I have no idea, that is what I was asking.
I assumed that he had spent ages abseiling, top roping or whatever, but now you say he tried it ground up, which to me means more or less that you go for a vague kind of onsight, but you have not really told me anything (not that it really matters , don't feel like you have to tell me).

In reply to Ian McNeill: What are you talking about? Why not write in clear sentences that make sense!

In reply to Aiden Wright:

Well said!

What are you on about? Dave Mc had a go at IF on toprope, found it ok climbing wise but decided it was too risky/snappy and bagged it. Now it seems he may have been offline. Simple.