UKC

hi,

i'm a uk climber currently on a climbing trip in the states.

i've just sent the email below to all the climbers i know, i hope you'll appreciate my reasons for posting it here. climb safe everybody.

email follows :

"hi,

some of you i've known as climbers for years, some of you i may have met once, swapped an email and never written again....you know how it goes.

i'm currently climbing in the black hills of south dakota and just wanted to let you all know the details of a climbing accident that occurred here two days ago.

tragically a seasonal resident climber, Paul Duvall, 71, died after abseiling/rappelling off the end of a rope.

the details are that he and his partner were using a rope that was unfamiliar to them. although many ropes only have a marker at the mid point, this rope had one type of warning marking 6m/20ft from each end and another type of marking at the mid point. when the abseil was set up the end marker was mistaken for the mid marker, subsequently Paul abseiled approximately 20ft before the end of the rope passed through his belay device. he then fell approximately 30ft further and passed away very shortly afterwards.

i just wanted to pass on this information to raise awareness of the possibility of this happening, particularly if someone is borrowing one of these types of ropes, as you will know often happens when a group of friends are climbing close together. please feel free to pass this on to any other climbers. we have since found out that there have been at least two other incidents of this type, thankfully not fatal.

i'm sorry to bring you sad news but i hope you understand my reason for doing so. just to forestall any questions, i was at the accident, i'm ok and am with good people.

to finish, i'd only known Paul a week and a half, he was a wonderful guy, tremendously generous in spirit and a climber to the core, may he rest in peace.

take care and climb safe

rich"

In reply to richard31:

A tragic accident. I think, if on multi-pitch abseils, it is good practice to put an overhand knot on the end of abseil ropes.

In reply to James Jackson: as tragic as this incident is (and others similar), as mentioned above, a simple overhand knot may prevent these incidents and should be common practice when abseiling. posting of these incidents so as to warn others about using Unfamiliar ropes should be rephrased to tell people to perform the above practise of tying a knot in the end (and using a prussik or similar!)

In reply to anthonyecc:

a good point anthony, thank you.

In reply to richard31: Hey Rich, just replied to your email.
Hope you ok mate, i know that your feeling it.....
Stay safe mate.
See you soon

In reply to anthonyecc:

It strikes me that the main thing that would prevent this particular type of accident is a bit of joined-up thinking on the part of climbing rope manufacturers. I've never heard of a rope with the middle marker 20 feet from the end, and manufacturing them to my mind makes this particular accident far too likely.

Tying an overhand knot in the end of the rope is all very splendid on multi-pitch abseils until it jams in a crack when you're pulling the rope and leaves you stranded ropeless in the middle of the face. Then you're f*cked. Of course this can happen even if you don't have a knot in the rope, but it's more likely if you do, presumably.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Yes you are f*cked - but you haven't just fallen off the end of the rope.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

You're still on the rope, not ropeless and you can descend to the jam, free it (at least try to) or cut it if you can't (and if you've got your Swiss Army in your pocket) and prussik back up to your next chosen abseil anchor. That's presuming you're suggesting the abseil you've just made is not a maximum rope length one and that's why you're trying to pull the rope back up to some good anchor before descending further. If you've gone the full legth of the rope, of course, you'll be untying the knot before pulling the rope. I think it's pretty well established that knotting the end is the way to go. Unless you are describing some other scenario and I don't understand.

In reply to kajsurfer:

No, you're right. I'm an idiot; I was forgetting you can untie it when you pull the rope.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I've never heard of a rope with the middle marker 20 feet from the end

Mammut for one does this.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

John, its a common feature on sport ropes, it is to give warning that there is not much rope left, usually max 10 mts from end. Strikes me to depend on any sort of mark rather than matching the ends when pulling through is a tad, how can I be discreet, careless. Tying an overhand knot would solve this too as it would be obvious you had not got the middle of the rope I suppose.

In reply to petrophile:

They mark the middle too, its an end marker not a middle marker.

In reply to richard31:

Very sad to hear this but is this perhaps more a function of the persons age more than anything - a lapse in concentration? Most of us would ensure that the rope was equalised and knotted before lowering regardless of any markings - pass rope through through belay, knot ends, gather in coils and lob. It is confusing to have too many marks on the rope I will agree.

The possibility of the knot jamming off route below in high wind is perhaps there so does anyone use the practice of tying the ends to oneself in such cases. I have never needed to do this or pay out the rope as one descends and perhaps there are problems with this method - like the rope catching around a spike. Any thoughts or experiences?

Steve

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:



...is vigilance. It always is with abseiling.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I stopped knotting the end of the rope (actually - only did it once!) because the awful clusterf*ck that inevitably forms when you do.


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Wierd that, I've taken to knotting the rope in the past few months and hadn't had a problem (although I did have a vague feeling it was just a waste of time). I think I'll carry on doing it!

My sympathies to all involved. Abseiling is an incredibly dangerous aspect of climbing and vigilance is a must.

With regards to tying knots, is it just me that looks down when I'm abseiling? Surely it is impossible to come off the end if you just look where you're going?

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Like me, and a lot of older people. With a knot you may hit it and have to faff to move, without you are constantly aware there is nothing to stop you if you reach the end so take greater care. With lots of practice you also know when you are coming near the end as the rope is lighter and livelier in your hand, at least I find that.

Relying on marks on a rope that are not obvious, such as having same colour for middle and end is dangerous, I expect the makers of that rope in the OP will make sure they are different ASAP.

In reply to Eric the Red:

I always do look down, and have never come near the end. I've basically started doing it since I don't have a middle marker and I need to find the ends before going anyway, doesn't take more than a second to knot them so I figure why not? Wouldn't disagree with your reasoning at all.

In reply to sutty: Completely agree Sutty and Chris.

In reply to sutty:

I have never not tied a knot in the end of the rope on a multi-abseil descent, and have never had a problem with it.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Done it three times, off Ilam rock, wind blew the ropes into trees and took hours getting the ropes back.

Coming off the Yellow Edge, abbing in the dark for half of it. too dodgy not to do it then when tired.

Off the top of Mecca when was not sure if ropes reached the ground.

In reply to 4712topo:

You can mitigate the rope catching on a spike by tieing separate overhand knots in each rope i.e. so it's not one big loop.

Always a judgement call on the knot though, as with so much else in climbing!

Stay safe.
Marq

RIP Paul an unfortunate accident.

In reply to richard31:

You say that the rope had end markers 20 ft from ends and a middle marker.
They mistook one of the end markers for the middle marker, OK, but why when they threw down the rope did they not notice that one end of the rope was just over 20 ft long?
Any time I have to ab off, I and my partner make sure that both ends of rope are next to each other and reach the ground or the next ab-off point. Not having a go but puzzled.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

It's always possible to make a mistake- or just plain forget to do something, and abseiling is pretty unforgiving when it goes wrong. It's even more likely when tired after a long climb, distracted by the weather coming in, or even thinking ahead to a cold beer after you get down.

I too had a pretty blase attitude to abseiling, I never used a prussik and never tied knots in the end. long story short, one time I realised I was stood on a 12" sloping ledge while my partner had abseiled down after me, we'd pulled the ropes and all the time I hadn't been clipped into the belay. Had one of those moments when you go up the stairs to get something and then forget what it is you went for. Was a big wake up call for me, gave me the shits to think of it for a long time afterwards.

In retrospect, i thinks it's good to have a little healthy paranioa of abseiling. Not that this story has anything to do with putting knots in the end of your ropes.

In reply to Everyone saying 'couldn't he have done this..', 'shouldn't he have done that..':

Accidents happen, they happen to the old they happen to the young, they happen to people on their first trip out and those on their thousandth. Best you can do is take time to think, take reasonable precautions then hope it doesn't happen to anyone you know.

A sad but familiar story.
jk

In reply to the crabbit man:

on a multi pitch ab you tend not to throw the rope down after the first abseil, rather thread one end into the belay and then pull the rope down. Once the rope is pulled you'd then make sure it was hanging from it's middle, which is pretty simple when two ropes are knotted together. With one rope all the same colour and several markers, I can see how the accident happended.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I've never heard of a rope with the middle marker 20 feet from the end,

In reply to sutty:
as this guy fell 30' after going 20' down the end of the rope (total 50'), I guess it wasn't a mult ab and so I for one wouldn't knot the rope end in this circumstance. Just be very, very careful, as you say.

In reply to Sutty and Chris:
You blokes are experienced and have obviously found personal reasons not to tie a knot in each end of your abseil rope. Fair enough for you. But remember that every single book on the market recommends that you do this. It is widely regarded as best practice, and I'd be shocked if any climbing instructor would advise his students not to tie a knot on ANY abseil of ANY length. It's a simple maxim, easy to remember, and it must have saved countless lives over the years. As a practice it also has less latent risk in it than not tying knots and relying on your own alertness, nevermind Sutty's scientific idea of feeling the weight of rope left in your hands!!

I'm pretty shocked that you guys can't see all that, and that you feel the need to even bother posting this stuff when a lot of people read these forums who don't have the years of experience you have and might not be quite so lucky following your advice here.

Whatever your reasons for not tying knots, and I'm not doubting that they are valid in the situations you've used them, with your experience levels, it is a fact that people get tired and their concentration wanes at the end of long climbing days or long abseil descents. Please don't go recommending potentially dangerous shortcuts to people, even if it's perfectly safe in your hands. Let people come to such conclusions in their own time and their own climbing careers, but at least start off with belt and braces when carrying out the single most dangerous action of their climbing day.

Tony

In reply to TonyG:

I have never been happy with the "THIS is the way you have to do it" approach to climbing, and I was pointing out that there are other methods and points of view.
Do instructors really insist on tying knots in the end of the rope when abseiling off Burbage North or Yarncliffe?
As to abseiling being the single most dangerous activity of the day - is it? I am aware of more deaths through soloing and more injuries through bouldering.


Chris

In reply to TonyG:

We are not saying it is not dangerous, after all we have personally known people who have died abseiling in some way. It is knowing it is hazardous and not being blazé about it that keeps you alive.

check list.

good anchor,
rope knot securely tied with decent tails and secured to anchor
clip yourself to rope, making sure it is not a gear loop you are on
fix prusik on if multipitch and clip that onto you
Remove belay/cows tail or whatever you are fastened to
ensure rope is hanging down free and not tangled in flakes with knot in end if you want
if windy, use a bag of some sort to put rope in and feed out as you descend so it does not catch on trees or cracks or flakes.

descend with care.

In reply to Chris Craggs: Sadly not mny people walk away from an abseil accident. As Royal Ronbbins said, all your eggs are in the one basket.

I'm getting more paranoid as I get older, but that just means I check more - I still don't use a prusik backup and I don't tie knots in the end unless I can't see where the rope finishes.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

and also that you based your own rejection of tying a knot, on the problems you encountered on your one and only attempt to do so. Which was honest, at least

In reply to Chris Craggs:
Yeah, I agree with you Chris, there are often a lot of ways of doing things, and each one of merit in particular situations. I certainly didn't intend to sound evangelical about it

I just feel that on balance a safer scenario must be that we have a canon of advice on best practice that people receive when they start, and as they go through their climbing life and experience more (and you've experienced more than most) they try different approaches and find out what can work, but with the safest practice as the foundation of their knowledge. In the case of abseiling I'd have thought it common sense that tying a knot is more failsafe than not doing so, even on a single pitch abseil. It takes seconds to do. Sure, if the wind's blowing, or there are trees in your abseil line etc... it can be a pain in the arse, but in the majority of abseil situations it's not much of a problem and you never abseil off the end of your ropes.

From my own experience, when I did a course at Plas Y Brenin years ago they certainly told me to always tie knots in the rope, and they even told me to always use a prussik back-up. In black and white safety terms they were right, but experience and judgement has taught me to be able to gauge when I think I can get away without one (touch wood that I don't come a cropper from it one day having said that!!). I'd have thought it would have to be that way, from a legal perspective and most certainly form a moral perspective.

Cheers

Tony

In reply to sutty:
Cheers Sutty. I think I'm perhaps just wary of the difference between saying something in the pub with your mates and saying it on a public forum where you've no control over who reads it and what they do with it afterwards. I certainly wouldn't doubt your experience and the fantastic situations it has taken you through. Thanks for posting that checklist for people.

Tony

In reply to richard31:

Commiserations to all involved.

I won't comment on all the various bits of advice in the thread.
Just to say however you abseil, get into the habit of checking each other before you commit to it. I've avoided at least one nasty accident that way.

In reply to TonyG:

Knew Holliwell, killed when anchor gave way, met lad who did not put rope round tree at Avon and abbed off and rope went with him paraplegic, then Patey, went off the end of the rope.
All different reasons for the accidents, but the common factor was not double checking the basics.

In reply to Toreador:

Yeah, I can't remember where it was but we were a bit gripped and put a big knot in the end of the rope. It must have taken thirty minutes to sort the ensuing mess out at the next belay. Having said that I have occasionally put a small stopper knot in the end of each rope which works better. I even started using a French Prussik in Lofoten - old dog - new tricks eh!


Chris

In reply to sutty:
>


I believe Patey didn't go off the end of the rope, he some how became detached, the figure of eight was left up on the rope. The theory was he got his jumper caught (or something similar) and in the ensuing struggle he fell.

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:
I have occasionally put a small stopper knot in the end of each rope which works better.

Chris (and others),

This has often puzzled me - when people refer to tying "a knot" in the end of the rope do they mean (i) knotting the two strands together to create a closed loop; or (ii) putting an individual knot in each strand (i.e. two knots)? I can imagine the former getting messy and have always used the latter, untying one of the two before pulling it through.

Thanks,

L

In reply to insouthamerica:
Me too.

Tony

In reply to insouthamerica:

The closed loop is a bad idea as it doesn't allow twists to work out of the rope.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Wasn't it a classic abseil in those days, Chris?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I'm pretty sure it was a Figure of Eight - maybe one of those funny wire ones (French).


Chris

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

What? In 1970 John? We were doing Karabiner break abseils in 1965! I think the first figure of 8 was out just after, or was this a joke?

In reply to Eric the Red:

I too can't understand how anybody can abseil off the end of a rope, even at night. I've done 100's of ab's and never have I forgot about the end of a rope.

In reply to topout123:

Classic post.

Good for you and I'm sure most climbers are the same. But one day, one of those climbers, fooks up, for whatever reason; forgetfulness, lack of attention, exhaustion, distraction, weather, peculiarities of a situation .. lots of reasons.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

That is exactly what I was told, by John Cleare, who was there at the time.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Complacency.


Chris

In reply to richard31:
More pointless ranting. Knot or not. Up to you. What killed was stupidity. Sorry but true.

In reply to mattsccm:

How very sad that you write that.

Sorry but not true.

I always knot the ropes when abbing from a multi pitch route. Even if the ab is say, only 15m and I have 30m of rope out. Force of habit.

No problem with the knot getting snagged because you untie it before pulling through.

The Ent

In reply to richard31: wow that's pretty f*cked up

My condolonces to his family and friends

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Also told that by Paul Nunn who was also there at the time, this was just a week or so after the accident so his memory was fresh.

In reply to richard31:

First, my condolences to Paul's family and friends.

As to how it happened: have we not all done something daft, due to a momentary lapse (eg looking away whilst driving on the morotway and not noticing the car in front has braked suddenly)? Most of the time we get away with it, sometimes we don't.

I think one useful help is to have good habits that protect us.
On the motorway, I leave a big gap between me and the car in front, just in case I zone out for some reason and it takes me longer than it should to notice the brake lights.

When abseiling, I think it is useful to put an overhand or fig-8 knot on the end of each rope end. That way hopefully the rope won't fly through my belay device even if I'm a complete eejit.
Don't tie both rope ends into one big knot - you'll get in a fankle.

In reply to richard31:

Hi Richard..sad news indeed.

Posted by his brother Ron at http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=621382

DUVAL- Paul A. 71 Formerly of Watertown, MA. Died Tuesday June 24, 2008 due to a rock climbing accident in Custer, South Dakota. He lived with his life partner Karen Hargrave in Custer.

Paul was born in Boston, raised in Allston and graduated from Boston Technical H.S. in 1954. He holds degrees from Wentworth Institute, Northeastern University and a master’s degree from Boston University.

As a young man he was an avid motorcycle racer and enthusiast.He was a member of the U.S. Army Signal Corp, he spent his military service in Europe and was honorably discharged in 1962. He returned to Boston in 1964 with his wife Marie-Francoise and baby daughter Nathalie, after working for two years in Paris as an engineer.

His professional career was spent as a dedicated high school teacher in the Boston Public School System. He taught at Boston Technical H.S., Charlestown H.S. and Madison Park H.S. He spent many of his summers as a camp counselor in Maine.

He was a longtime member of the Appalachian Mountain Club and very active as a rock climbing instructor. His climbing experience included excursions to Europe, Africa, Mexico and all over North America.

He is survived by his two daughters, Nathalie Couetil of West Lafayette, Indiana and Orielle Georgiades of Carmel, Indiana; Brother Kenneth of Yreka, California; Brother Ronald of Long Valley, NJ. and four grand children.

Also: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=622668