UKC

Strand belay now rather ancient and unsafe.There are 2 nuts and 2 pegs,all ancient.If one rips,then the rest may follow.Most people ab off these pieces,rather than continue to the top.

Anyone local prepared to replace the belay?

cheers,

Paul Mitchell

In reply to paul mitchell:

Hey Paul, please post your comment on the wiki;

http://gogarth.wetpaint.com/page/the+upper+tier

My opinion is that I would prefer for the belay to be stripped of in-situ gear in order to encourage people to top out. Topping out on this route is a piece of piss and much better than encouraging people to ab off dubious in-situ kit on a sea-cliff.

In reply to dr evil:

Agreed, it was always normal practice to continue up the slope to rock belays, then walk off

In reply to paul mitchell:

I've climbed the Strand several times, each time with foreigners, who are always mystified when they see the belay. "The UK no-bolting ethic is all well and good", they say, "but you still abseil off fixed gear. The only difference is that the fixed gear is usually shit". To which I never have a coherent response.

Given that nobody is going to put bolts there, I agree with the poster above. Strip the lot and make people top out.

In reply to Alun:

You should have just said:

"Yes, but if we put bolts here some young upstart who doesn't know any better will think that this is the norm and come along and start bolting everything else. Then in no time at all our wonderful crags like Gogarth will look like your horrific grid bolted, climb for the masses, playgrounds."

Easy answer

The Ent

In reply to paul mitchell:

another vote for the strip it and top out and enjoy the walk back down.

stop for the view one of the best views going on the way off..

In reply to Ian McNeill:

It's been a while since I did it, so it's a bit hazy, but do you have to pitch it there or can you carry on up to the decent belay in one rope length?

I abbed off (and left a piece of gear to back up the fixed gear, which was fairly shite back in 1991!)

In reply to Ian McNeill: Another vote for topping out, the constant terryfying act of re-descending the chimney after each route is part of the Gogarth game

In reply to Enty:

I tried that but couldn't translate 'grid bolted'

In reply to paul mitchell:
intentions to do route, intentions to do FULL route. strip the gear and walk back round to where the sandwiches are.

In reply to Dom Whillans: Good on yer Dom!

In reply to paul mitchell:

Just to say if someone abs off that belay and it rips it's their own fault.

In reply to paul mitchell:

Another walk-round-you-idle-bastards vote.

jcm

In reply to paul mitchell: I got the sanctimonious,inflexible, trad- bigoted reply I expected.People will just continue to ab on the crap gear until it strips and someone dies.

Mitch

In reply to paul mitchell:

One good reason why people shouldn't leave fixed gear in this sort of belay is that over time it rots and makes the belay less safe for the rest of us. Is it still possible for a leader arriving on the stance to back it up safely?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

There was still a good nut slot free when I did it 3 weeks ago.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I did the route 2 weeks ago and managed to place two additional wires to back up the belay. my second then led on through and we topped out, and walked back down to the gearing up spot.

In reply to paul mitchell:

that's democracy for you though, innit? most people seem to be up for the removal of the gear, this will stop anyone dying from abbing off crap kit won't it? walking off is infinitely safer anyhow, and adds a little yin to the yang of climbing

In reply to 1234None:

Sounds to me as if there's could be enough there naturally to either protect the moves to the upper belay, or even to belay from. If the top belay is reachable within a rope length, then an argument could be made for stripping the earlier belay of fixed stuff completely. I can't see why people would be determined to ab from that point if it always meant sacrificing their own gear to do it.

In reply to paul mitchell:

I refer the honourable gentleman to Paz's post above.

The Ent

In reply to paul mitchell:

What are you actually proposing - replacement pegs, bolted station?

In reply to paul mitchell:

If by "sanctimonious,inflexible, trad- bigoted" you refer to a general wish to leave the climb as a trad climb, then I'm in the "strip it and make walking off the norm" camp. Why must you treat the climb like a sport climb when it's not?

In reply to Enty: i just dont buy this "if you bolt the belay, general bolting of said crag will follow". by the way am not for bolting of The Strand belay but do think that all in-situ stuff should be scrapped. not sure what the adjacent terrain is like but belay stakes might be an option? i am though for getting on with my climbing and would far prefer abseiling from good belay stakes rather than the dangerous top grass section, plod to the gearing-up spot and dodgy traverse back to the foot of the climbs.

In reply to ksjs:
No need for belay stakes. You can do the route and use a well trodden path to walk up the hillside to good belays in one rope length

There is no need to belay on the lip to watch your second, it is straight up after all

In reply to ksjs:

Isn't the plod back to the gearing-up spot and the traverse back to the foot of the routes all part of the Gogarth Upper Tier experience???

if stakes are placed everywhere merely for convenience and so that folks like you can "get on with climbing", there is a risk that we will end up with characterless crags.

For convenience or if you wanna just get on with climbing as many routes as possible in the day, why not go to the wall or a bolted crag with lower offs etc.

I did Strand a few weeks back, plus some stuff on the Main Cliff and the top pitch, walk back to the gear etc was all part of the experience.

In reply to 1234None: no, not part of the Upper Tier experience for me as i find the scramble at the top of the climbs more intimidating than the climbing not to mention unpleasant. i dont think Pembroke is characterless and theres plenty of stakes there (for example, i think all the climbs in the Leap use belay stakes and this is amongst the UK's best / most atmospheric venues). i can climb whenever indoors but when the UK weather, my time and suitable partners co-incide id like to make the most of it so id rather be getting routes done than walking along the top of the cliff.

im glad you like that part of the experience but its not for everyone and for me gets in the way of the main event. anyway, even if you dont walk off its impossible not to be infused with the atmosphere of the place so its not like youre missing out...

In reply to ksjs:

Er, that's only beacuse of a lack of natural belays top of the leap

In reply to kevin stephens: not relevant, i was simply pointing out that presence of belay stakes does not rob somewhere of atmosphere

In reply to paul mitchell:

It's all very well saying people SHOULD walk down, the fact is they don't. For whatever reason, do another route, tight rock shoes etc, most people prefer to ab. No one is saying you can't walk down if you want to but the vast majority of people prefer to ab off. Years ago it wasn't like this but it is now. DO we lecture people to do as we think thay should or do we get the local BMC or North Wales Climbers Action Group to put some stainless pegs in.

Remember the 'rule' as Bwlych y MOch was to walk down but this was changed as climbers habits changed, you really can't work against the majority.

In reply to paul mitchell:

I topped out this route when I did it on the International Meet, I didn't realise that the norm was to ab off the tat until afterwards when Erik pointed that out to me (some host I am!) I think it is perhaps a little bit of laziness as a 60m rope doesn't quite get you to safety in one pitch.

This leaves a quandry: the station is either to be used for belaying or abbing, which Paul, perhaps rightly has pointed out, is now good for either, or atleast soon won't be.

I don't agree with the argument that some climber will come along and say "oh, a bolt, I know I'll bolt a route up", but it does set a precident for other routes to have stations installed. I don't know what the answer is, both sides of the argument are strong.

I know in this case, it's bolts backed up with fixed gear: doesn't say much for the bolts.....

In reply to angels:

read the post Angels, it's not about forving people to walk down. It's about the existng fixed gear being dangerous and unsightly, and the Gogarth ethic of not having fixed gear lower offs

I would be really pissed off at somebody ramming pegs into thr top of a classic climb like the Strand, the placement is actually part of the route.

Are you really saying the same principals should apply to Gogarth as Bwych y Moch?

In reply to andi turner:

Sorry, that should read pegs, not bolts...

In reply to paul mitchell: Had a similar discussion here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=255254 last year, and some pics to illustrate the point I was trying, but obviously failing, to make: http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2007/07/superior-ethics-or-littering.... My feeling after the discussion is that people will never support bolts for reason of them being either neater or safer, so rather people should put there money where there mouth is and strip all fixed gear. In this specific case I haven't done the route - I'd love to the the Strand someday, and I suspect if I make it up the main pitch I'd be very happy to climb the rest and walk down!