UKC

We are just after a bit of advice on the descent route off Dinas Mot. We were looking at The Nose area from another crag and thought thats one for the future, but on reading the guide book and looking at the crag, the way off is a little grey.
We saw a few people abseil off. Is there some tat up there or anything for a retrievable abseil?

Cheers in advance.

In reply to MattJP: Well I dont know what they do now but we just used to shin down Western Gully, one 'bad step' as I remember near the bottom.

In reply to MattJP:

Downclimb of Western Gully is OK (about MOD think...). There is a rock spike towards the bottom that can be used for a very short abseil if you don't like the "bad step".

In reply to MattJP:

Its pretty straightforward to ab down either gully. There's usually plenty of tat at the top but its maybe worth taking your own along to back it up. Double ropes get you all the way to the bottom though it is possible to get down with one rope as I found out the first time!

In reply to All:

Presumably Western Gully is the dark looking gully on the right of the crag when looking at it? It looks pretty hard going!! :0) Although we were quite a long way from it!

In reply to MattJP: Its very easy, abseiling would be a serious waste of time!

In reply to Al Evans:

It is easy when you climb hard, to a severe climber having done the cracks a tad harder. Still only the one awkward bit that can be downclimbed or short ab though

In reply to MattJP:

Western Gully is an easy scramble in rock boots. If you can climb any of the routes up the Mot, the way down shouldn't be an issue for you.

In reply to MattJP:

I've only ever abbed off - the bottom of Western Gully is often wet. To ab Western Gully in one go, you need 60m ropes, and there is a lot of potential for your ropes to get jammed. The ab down the other side (Eastern Gully?!) is shorter, probably about 35m, and there's less chance of getting your ropes jammed. There's always been good tat in place for both abseils when I've been there.

In reply to MattJP:

We were there a few weeks ago and the tat at the top of Western Gully was in good nick with a maillon. 60m ropes get you right to the base, I imagine 50's would come up just short. The last step is the hard part and it's often wet, but there are some spikes for a second ab if it's wet.

In reply to bullwinkle: For gods sake guys, learn to down climb easy ground, its a rock climbing skill which could come in handy (essential) sometime.

In reply to Al Evans:

I cant agree more with Al on this, practice your scrambling skills first head for The Ogwen and have a go at the scrambles.

I have successfully abseiled off the eastern gully take a length of old rope to make a good long abseil belay and a mallion, others might be thankful short slings are good for jamming ropes.

As for the western descent a steady head and helmet will get you down to the bad step which is easy to protect both on just look at how others manage it before you give it a go --- watch and learn.


I have assisted quite a few clients down both sides over the years, with out any major problems, all lived to climb another day ... go prepared..

In reply to Al Evans:

For gods sake guys, learn to abseil, its a rock climbing skill which could come in handy (essential) sometime.

In reply to Al Evans:
Hear, hear!

In reply to Jon Dittman:

Its also one of the most common causes of accidents, so yes learn how to abseil, but learn how not to have to depend on it.

In reply to Al Evans:

I am a confident down climber thank you, no need to be patronising. Perhaps you should learn where it's appropriate to abseil? When I've been there I deemed that a quick easy 60m ab would be quicker and safer than a 60m down climb with wet vegetated rock at the bottom. The one time I've been there and the bottom of Western gully was dry I was with a multi-pitch novice - do you think it's sensible for him to attempt such a down climb? I remember Norrie Muir saying he regularly down climbed Agags Groove - does that mean we should all do it?

We all should have the skill and judgement to make the call on what we see as the most appropriate form of descent, based on ability, conditions (wetness!), speed etc. So long as it's safe and doesn't affect others why should it bother you what way someone else gets off a crag. To come on here and suggest that everyone should down climb and not abseil is irresponsible and makes you come across a bit 'high and mighty'.

To the OP, if you deem it sensible to down climb, fair enough. If you want to abseil, hopefully my advice will be useful!

In reply to Al Evans:

When I was up there we abbed down western gully because it was wet and full of muddy slime. Downclimbing it would have been seriously dodgy. It is perfectly sensible to ab this one.

In reply to MattJP:

Thanks for all the advice so far, I am one of OP's climbing partners and the replies have been really useful. We will happily downclimb, and spend many days downclimbing grade 2 or 3 scrambles practising for this purpose. But its also helpful to know that abseiling is an option. We didnt want to get the top of a route and find that the gully was perenially wet (as many gullies in wales often are), making downclimbing a dangerous option, with little or no options for an abseil. Matt and I are a couple and therefore like to be safe (to the best of our ability) as the thought of losing one of us through a climbing accident (and an ill prepared one at that) doesnt bear thinking about. That doesnt mean we are scared to push our grades and abilities, but it does mean we like to be well prepared before we set out.

So...thanks again to ALL of you for the helpful advice, it is very much appreciated!!!
Chas

In reply to bullwinkle: Chill. Nobody is forcing anybody to down climb, just saying it was the normal way off the Mot and its a skill worth having, why does that challenge you?

In reply to Al Evans:

The ultimate aim, in terms of beneficial practice, is to abseil down but then get your ropes jammed and have to solo two thirds of the way back up to free them and then downclimb anyway..

In reply to chassy:

You can always walk round to the foot of Western Gully, just takes a couple of minutes from where you gear up, and give it a quick look to see how wet or not it is. Like others have said, it is usually only the bottom few feet that can be wet.

Eastern Gully is both more awkward and usually wetter than Western Gully - I think I've only ever been down it once.

ALC

btw, if you are on the western wing (nexus etc) i expect you'd gain even more 'enjoyment', as i did, from the scramble and ab down jammed boulder gully...

In reply to Wilbur: Lol

In reply to Al Evans:

Yes. I'm surprised people who are having trouble getting down this very convenient descent route manage to get to the top of the Nose at all. It's rather like a long ladder made of rock, a bit tricky at the bottom.

In reply to Wilbur:

well that changes everything....i thought you only got one route done that day when in fact you got 1 and 2/3.

In reply to MattJP: western gully is a fairly serious down climb when it is wet, which it frequently is. I nearly took the fast way down it and i'd managed to down climb half a pitch of hvs without any problems about an hour before. If you down climb it then watch where you put your feet as it is polished to hell.

In reply to Al Evans:

"For gods sake guys, learn to down climb ..."

It was more your assumption that I don't know what I'm doing that erked me. I was just sharing my experience of having abseiled down both sides of the crag, which I thougt might be useful. Anyway, I guess it highlights that we all make different judgements, none in this case right or wrong.

I'll have to give the down climb a try next time I'm up there. If the bottom wall is dripping, does the spike above it usually have tat in place, or is it a spike you can just loop the rope around? 1st time I was there I thought about climbing down to the bottom wall (which was dripping), but there was tat in place at the top so I knew I wouldn't have to sacrifice any gear if I just abbed the lot.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

who said I was having trouble?

In reply to bullwinkle:

Well, I certainly didn't.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

"Yes. I'm surprised people who are having trouble ... "

You sure?

In reply to bullwinkle:

I thought you said you weren't having trouble with it??

In reply to bullwinkle:

When did I say that?

In reply to thread: Yawn.

In reply to MattJP: Last time I was there (early summer) there was some tat for abbing down the gully. I've done that in the past, but it's much quicker to downclimb. As others have said the downcliimb is an easy scramble, slightly trickier right near the bottom but nothing serious.

In reply to Sean Kelly:

Amazing shot, I'm glad I did all the classic years ago!


Chris

In reply to Morgan Woods:


It's quality not quantity Morgs!

That downclimb of the gulley is 3 stars - it's a shame you didn't get to experience it in your haste to get down and do the supposed classics on the main face...

In reply to Wilbur: I think you hit it there Wilbur, climbing down Western Gully is part of the whole climbing experience of the Mot, Abseiling down misses the point, but if you just want quick ticks its probably the preferred option.

In reply to Al Evans:

As part of the 'Dinas Mot experience' there are also the descent routes on the West Wing: Jammed Boulder Gully - much more scary, and I seem to recall something further west again which is even more scary ...

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: JBG has been mentioned, it is certainly scarier than WG.

In reply to Al Evans:

Don't listen to Al, any inexperienced climbers out there. Western Gully (that's the one on the right looking in) is quite often wet and slimy - it seems to have got more so over the years. I've scrambled down it many times but when it is mingin' I ab off. Use your judgement. I wouldn't want anyone to become the subject of an obituary thread on UKC by taking advice from some self-appointed Billy Big Balls.

In reply to Pekkie:

Totally agree. Western Gully is generally very steep and often damp i.e. unpredicatable. If in doubt, use a rope.

In reply to Caned_but_able:

All this is very strange to me, given how timid a climber I was, really. Yet we are frequently hearing now about people who have psychological problems about downclimbing rock that's graded Moderate or less. So that standard descent routes on very good rock, like that off the Idwal Slabs or the Nose of the Mot, are now considered to be very dangerous. Just what on earth is going on/going wrong? Just how do modern climbers of this type cope with, say, the standard descent from the Grochan (many times harder) or the descent gully to Craig yr Ysfa (which is something else again). The answer, I suspect, is that they don't go there if they can't abseil with their now very long ropes.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Not all 'climbers' are 'mountaineers' I suppose

In reply to dan1987:

Umm. To be a rock climber you need a wide range of skills apart from simply being able to climb up good, clean, well-protected rock.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I wasn't saying that. Western Gully might be moderate going up in dry conditions but sometimes it is green and slimy. One slip and...was that Jimmy Jewel going by? Just be careful about putting your balls where your brains should be.

In reply to MattJP:

If you can't do the ewasy scramble down for whatever reason then leave your own damn tat. A route on the Mot is worth at least 60p.

In reply to Pekkie:

What makes you think I disagree with that? I'm sure I've abseiled down parts of standard descent routes when conditions have been very bad e.g in winter/rain/sleet etc

In reply to Paz:

Sorry, Al. I'm afraid this punter has to take the 'Billy Big Balls' tag.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Exactly. You made a reasoned decision based on the conditions. So don't you think it's a good idea to advise the inexperienced to do the same?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I agree with you completely. But nowadays not all climbers start out mountaineering (or hill-walking) and as a result some aren’t as confident on steep, slippery descents. Surely it’s better to abseil off if it’s sketchy rather than have an accident – They'll be carrying a rope anyway.
As for Clogwyn y Grochan or Craig yr Ysfa - it leaves them quieter for the rest of us doesn't it??

In reply to Pekkie:
I did the descent down the gully 3 times in 2 days last year, once just after it rained and it is a totally different beast in the wet. At the end of the day it is up to the individual to decide how they want to descend the gully based on their experience and the conditions. In the wet I think I'd rather downclimb the VS just to the left of it It is remarkably easy to slip in the gully when it is wet, I came quite lose to falling the whole length of it when attempting to downclimb it just after a brief shower (admittedly it was in Feb so it was just generally damp).

In reply to Pekkie:

I'd encourage them first and foremost to learn how to downclimb well, with abseiling regarded more as a last resort than it is now today.

In reply to Reach>Talent:

We once did the Direct route for a laugh in February when there was a waterfall running down the top pitch. That was nice, but even nicer was soloing down a damp, dark, green slippery gully. Nowadays I'd just go to the wall. You can get warm coffee and muffins there.

In reply to MattJP:

Dont rely on their being abseil tat on the Mot descent or anywhere else. Always carry some of your own.

In reply to Pekkie:

I prefer the title `Top Rock Cat' thanks.

I hope you remember your helmet next time you're on the Mot for when someone you encouraged to abseil knocks a rock on top of you.

In reply to MattJP:

Not sure about the top, but attempted "Lorraine" on Dinas Mot/The Nose in the second week of last July. We had to bail because it started pooring down on us. We feft a sling and maillon just left of the second pitch on "Lorraine" / 3rd pitch of "The Cracks".

Good climbing.. too bad we couldn't top it though.

In reply to Pekkie: FFS, I am not forcing people to down climb Western Gully, just saying that in reasonable conditions it is a more efficient and safer (to other people) option than abseiling. Nobody is saying YOU HAVE TO DOWN CLIMB THIS EVEN IF ITS PISSING WET, or even suggesting that begginers do it, or even suggesting that the 'bad step' at the bottom can't be rope protected. All I'm saying is that all things considered under perfect conditions downclimbing is a lot less faff than abseiling down Western Gully, and I stand by that and don't appreciate being slagged of as 'Big Balls' for saying it. It was a piece of advice in my opinion, OK.

In reply to BamBam: I remember years ago, climbing Direct Route with Bob Anderson and getting caught out in a torrential downpour, with water funnelled into the central groove. We were certainly ankle-deep in it but still carried on, swimming to the top, then abbed off. Coping with all sorts of conditions is part of the total climbing experience.
As for downclimbing, the descent to the start of Dream on Gogarth in wet weather in full waterproofs is quite sobering!

In reply to MattJP:

We were there last week in pretty damp conditions and chose to abseil straight down Direct Route (the VS in the centre of the face). This involves 2 abs and you need to have some tat for both. The first around the large block at the top about 2 metres back from the edge of the climb and the second over the rock flake in the niche (belay point while on direct). Obviouly abseiling on this line wouldnt be so suitable if there were other parties coming up the climb, but it was empty and so we chose this as a quicker and less slimy alternative to Eastern Gully.

PT

In reply to QuarryKid: I'm sorry, I cant help but saying I think this is a terrible development. Tat left all over the main face, people should stick to the recommended descents even if you have to use a rope because its wet!

In reply to Al Evans:

Agreed.

However the last couple of posts are more along the lines of "we needed to get out of there" rather than "we couldn't be ar**d to walk/scramble down".

You can short rope down Western Gully using spikes and the like to protect you. It may take a little time if you aren't used to it but once you have the technique sussed then it is going to be as quick as abseiling (as well as being less intrusive on other parties climbing.

In the old days (even before Al Evans!) the British crags were seen as a training ground for "bigger things". No longer the case obviously these days but places like this are suitable for expanding the range of your techniques and increasing confidence.

ALC

In reply to Sean Kelly:
In that case half the climbing experience still seems like more fun to me! You don't have much of a choice in Wales, so saying that probably makes you feel better about it. We were not wearing any waterproofs and I don't enjoy the climb anymore when freezing my ass off when soaked. I'm a rock climber who likes to stick to dry rock in pleasant weather conditions. There is a reason I came to Wales in July and don't have alpine aspirations.

Additionally, we just learned to climb trad. Doesn't help to build up your confidence trying to place the gear when sliding all over the place.

"Best climber in the world is the one that has the most fun".. Climbing in the rain is not part of the "fun" for me.

In reply to a lakeland climber:

>You can short rope down Western Gully using spikes and the like to protect you. It may take a little time if you aren't used to it but once you have the technique sussed then it is going to be as quick as abseiling (as well as being less intrusive on other parties climbing.

Think that is what we did in poor conditions.

To the person who said you need 60m ropes to ab off, how did we manage with 150ft= 46m ropes? Come to that, how did the pioneers manage with 80ft ropes?

In reply to sutty:

Not sure if you're referring to me, but I believe to abseil the whole of western gully in one you do need 60m ropes, but you could always split the ab or downclimb some of it if you have shorter ropes. I think the eastern gully ab is about 35m from the top. Correct me if I'm wrong! (I think North Wales Rock says this too - I don't have it to hand)

Is this a 5 minute argument or the full half hour?

In reply to MattJP:

Why is it that on similar threads to this, nay many different types of threads, three particular posters, namely Sutty, Evans and Stainforth constantly spout lines similar to:

"... when I was a lad we never did it that way..."
and,
"... oh these young un's today..."
or,
"...you've got it easy nowdadays..."

blah, blah, blaaaaaaaah,

God, will you old farts just give it a rest - you aren't half BORING.

ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz..........

In reply to Duck Tape:

Yawn, just done a check on your postings. Do you actually climb, no advice ever given and no routes listed in your profile.

In reply to sutty:

Nah, never. Bit like you really. Except "when you were a lad" in yer tweeds and twin set eh?

In reply to Duck Tape:

How many first ascents have you done this year?

In reply to sutty:

Did Duck Tape strike a sensitive nerve?

In reply to BamBam: I didn;'t say climbing in the rain was fun, but part of the total climbing experience. It is highly likely that if you climb in Wales then you are going to get caught out by rain. Better to learn how to cope with this, both by climbing wet rock or how to retreat safely. A sudden downpour halfway up Dervish was quite exciting, and retreating off the West Buttress of Cloggy in heavy rain was a real epic, compilcated with all the overlapping overhangs. Better to learn the skills how to make difficult descents in Wales first than having to do it for real either in Scottish winter or the Alps.
And as for Duck tape (not your real name I suppose) you too will be an 'old fart' one day! But then again, disregard the sage advice of Sutty, Al & Gordon (real names I see) and you might not see old age! Their knowledge and experience speaks for itself, and such a rude post totally uncalled for.

In reply to Pekkie:

I just put down a comment about 60m ropes not being needed as we managed to descend the gully or crag with 46m ropes and someone who seems never to give a sensible comment, have any history of climbing decides to take the piss, just like smart guy.

People like that should either put up or shut up. Al, Gordon and me have a history that can be checked, duckhead hasn't.

In reply to Sean Kelly:

Was it that uncalled for? Typical robust good humour if you ask me. OK, the gang of three do offer good advice from time to time but I thought in this case that their advice erred just a little towards encouraging the inexperienced to put themselves in jeapordy. It's a fine line and climbing is an adventure sport (but with disastrous consequences if you make just one mistake) but UKC at its best is about robust argument laced with earthy good humour.

In reply to Sean Kelly:


Oh yeah? Like their abseiling advice in this thread?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=308444

All spot-on and by the book eh? Bullshit. Actually it's a perfect example of how inaccurate their advice can be and how dated their, "...when I was a lad.." diatribe really is. Take what they say with a pinch of salt. Experience counts for nothing if you ignore progression and cast aside modern technique with a sneer.

In reply to Pekkie: To be truthful, the comments by Ducktape were ageist as well as rude & insulting and if anyway called me an 'old fart' down the pub, fur would fly.

In reply to Sean Kelly:

Aren't you be a little over-sensitive? 'Old fart' is quite mild compared to some of the things I've been called. 'Alzheimered, lard-arsed twxt' comes to mind. Quite accurate really.

In reply to Pekkie: The older I get, the more sensitive I become!

In reply to Duck Tape:

From that thread;
check list.

good anchor,
rope knot securely tied with decent tails and secured to anchor
clip yourself to rope, making sure it is not a gear loop you are on
fix prusik on if multipitch and clip that onto you
Remove belay/cows tail or whatever you are fastened to
ensure rope is hanging down free and not tangled in flakes with knot in end if you want
if windy, use a bag of some sort to put rope in and feed out as you descend so it does not catch on trees or cracks or flakes.

In reply to sutty:

Good for you. And Stainforth saying he never knots the ends, eh? And the thread regarding abseil safety where Al berated people for putting a prussic on the rope (I'll find it if I can); all great advice eh?

In reply to Duck Tape:

Here it is:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=265767&v=1#x3932341

Quality safety advice from Mr Evans. Repeated several times too. Just to re-inforce his point. Hmm.

In reply to Pekkie:

If DuckTape struck a sensitive nerve with Sutty it was because they singled him out personally (with the other two).

And if you knew anything you'd realise how idiotic it is to presume that someone can climb at every stage throughout their life, no matter what happens to them, as much as I intend to do so. At some point having climbed a lot is enough for me, and having been climbing nearly twice as long as I've been alive is certainly enough.

We've all been offering advice for at least 5 years now and noone's ever died as a result of it (to my knowledge, touch wood). Whereas I'm unaware of anything else you and DT have done or contributed.

DT has a point about prussks. With them, I always just thought it was a stupid way to die given the 10 seconds it takes to slap one on, but like anything in climbing it's a toss up between how safe you want to be (i.e., number of turns in this case) and it not being a total pain in the arse, and is a personal choice. Me I only use a single larks foot (tried and tested) but I concentrate on which edges my ropes are (ideally not) going over and which idiots like you and Duck Tape are obliviously below me who I can possibly try to avoid knocking loose stuff on to.

Maybe you guys have just never been anywhere near the Mot on a busy day?

In reply to Duck Tape:

And 'Duck Tape' (sic) saying he climbs down descent routes blindfold.

You're just making it up, DT. I have never done a serious abseil without knotting the ends of the rope.

In reply to Duck Tape:

Explain why any of that advice is innacurate, I won't speak for the others they can do that themselves, but my comments about marks on rope are completely valid, and very 'modern'.

In reply to Duck Tape:


Another one I have no problem with, suggesting that people learn to abseil properly fits in with the current thread, and you will see my comments backed up by some of the most serious abseiling examples anybody like you is ever likely to see.

In reply to Duck Tape:


Actually I followed Climbing Pixie up a 350ft E1 on Lundy in May, and was leading 5+ last week, nothing great in the scheme of things, not even great compared to other tweeds and twin set climbers, but at least at 60 I am still keen.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
>

I think he got you and me mixed up!


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Ah, that explains it! Mind you, I never, of course, tie a knot in the ends of the ropes if they reach the bottom/safe ground.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

>I never, of course, tie a knot in the ends of the ropes if they reach the bottom/safe ground.

Whew, fail your test for that Gordon, knots are compulsory now you know, not using your brain.

In reply to MattJP:

Well its certainly been an entertaining thread to say the least!! ;0)

Anyway, thanks to everyone for their input, suggestions and advice!!

Next thread, 'We are going to set up a top rope on Cenotaph Corner....'

In reply to Al Evans:

You repeatedly state there is no need for a prussik to back-up an ab. This was your reply to comments by a UKC user that a prussik may save your life:

"Its a cop out forabbing properly, I have been abbing for over 40 years with no probs, stop being a whimp."

Should all UKC users listen to your voice of experience?

In reply to everyone:

Some people on this site (not just this thread) appear to blindly accept that advice from 'older' climbers is Gospel truth.
I wished to do was highlight that this may not be the case and just because a particular climber is experienced does not mean he or she is the fountain of all knowlege, and the user of best practice.

The comments made by the 'veteran' climbers earlier in this thread (prior to my involvement) implied - to me anyway - that abbing down Western Gully was in some way inferior, indeed even seen as 'wimping out', in preference to down climbing. The usual splattering of "...in my day..." and similar comments lead me to search for the posted links to emphasise and reinforce my opinions.

In reply to Duck Tape:

You are right to question blind criticism but is it any worse than the "I'll abseil off because I can't be arsed" mentality of others? What is wrong with learning how to cope with awkward descents, either solo or short roping?

Who knows, one day you may need such skills.

ALC

In reply to a lakeland climber:


You're right. I down climb, walk off, or abseil, as dictated by conditions, tiredness, time, location, partner, etc, and not by the advice of others.

In reply to Duck Tape:

You really are a prat, the advice was asked for in the OP.

In reply to Paz:

Hang on! Dick Tape, Duck Head or whatever his nom-de-plume is, isn't my mate! I don't agree with everything he says. I have actually given a lot of advice on abseiling, prussicks, routes etc. I have been involved in several rescues involving abseiling, climbers falling off easy descents etc and whilst on the one hand it is certainly true that a climber needs a whole range of skills including soloing up or down on easy ground, I just think that when giving advice to beginners it is better to err on the side of caution. And I have often been on the Mot on a busy day - I must have done Diagonal a dozen times! I've also done many of the routes on the wings like The Mole and Black Shadow which don't seem to get done very often these days. So don't patronise me, sir!

In reply to Pekkie: I dont think Paz was patronising you , his points were valid, Duck Tapes were just uninformative and rude, and contributed nothing to the debate, yours did.

In reply to Al Evans:


I beg to differ old boy. If my comments stop just one impressionable newbie climber from listening to the rot that spews from some posters and taking it as the truth, then my posts have been worth it.

In reply to Pekkie:


Charming :-p