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I walked up Scafell Pike on Saturday, from Langdale. It was bit cloudy, so not ideal conditions for navigation. Four separate groups stopped me to ask for directions. All were heading in a completely different direction from the way they thought they were going:
1. Esk Hause. Had a map, were trying to get to Langdale via Angle Tarn, but were heading down into Eskdale.
2. Esk Hause. Had a damp map with large holes at the fold points. Trying to get to Styhead having descended from Scafell Pike. Also heading down to Eskdale.
3. Summit of Scafell Pike. Had a laminated photocopy map covering the Scafell Pike area. Wanted to descend to Wasdale, but were going down into the gap between Scafell Pike and Broad Crag.
4. The best of the bunch. On the corridor route, near the top end of Piers Ghyll. No Map, no idea where they were or where they were trying to get to. The conversation went something like this:
Them:Can you help us? Which way should we go?
Me: Where are you trying to get to?
Them: The carpark (classic!)
Me: which carpark?
Them: The one by the pub
Me: which pub?
Them: Oh, we don't know. It had "Inn" written on the side wall in big letters.
Me: Which valley is it in?
Them: We don't know - we're not very well prepared are we?
Me: Could it have been Wasdale?
Them: Yes, that's it - "Weez-dale"
I suppose the fourth group are fairly typical of day-trippers trying to "do" Scafell Pike. But the other three looked like they knew what they were doing. I was wondering whether this sort of thing happens a lot - people wandering off into the fells, not knowing how to navigate in mist, and relying on other walkers to help them out if they get lost?
1. Esk Hause. Had a map, were trying to get to Langdale via Angle Tarn, but were heading down into Eskdale.
2. Esk Hause. Had a damp map with large holes at the fold points. Trying to get to Styhead having descended from Scafell Pike. Also heading down to Eskdale.
3. Summit of Scafell Pike. Had a laminated photocopy map covering the Scafell Pike area. Wanted to descend to Wasdale, but were going down into the gap between Scafell Pike and Broad Crag.
4. The best of the bunch. On the corridor route, near the top end of Piers Ghyll. No Map, no idea where they were or where they were trying to get to. The conversation went something like this:
Them:Can you help us? Which way should we go?
Me: Where are you trying to get to?
Them: The carpark (classic!)
Me: which carpark?
Them: The one by the pub
Me: which pub?
Them: Oh, we don't know. It had "Inn" written on the side wall in big letters.
Me: Which valley is it in?
Them: We don't know - we're not very well prepared are we?
Me: Could it have been Wasdale?
Them: Yes, that's it - "Weez-dale"
I suppose the fourth group are fairly typical of day-trippers trying to "do" Scafell Pike. But the other three looked like they knew what they were doing. I was wondering whether this sort of thing happens a lot - people wandering off into the fells, not knowing how to navigate in mist, and relying on other walkers to help them out if they get lost?
In reply to smolders: i find your story encouraging evidence that the spirit of exploration is alive and well
In reply to smolders: friend of mine, who is a very experienced outdoorsy/ backwoods/ make a set of fine china pottery from elk blood type but not a big climber got a real shock on Snowdon last week - texted me from the summit saying he couldn't believe how poorly equiped most of the people he could see were, and thought there was a disaster in the making. I texted him back and explained about the train....
In reply to smolders:
Another Esk Hause one:
Them: "Can you tell us where on this map we are please?"
Me: "Here", while pointing to a point about 1m past the right edge of said map.
Esk Hause does seem to be a particularly confusing place, especially in the mist, if you haven't been there a couple of times.
ALC
Another Esk Hause one:
Them: "Can you tell us where on this map we are please?"
Me: "Here", while pointing to a point about 1m past the right edge of said map.
Esk Hause does seem to be a particularly confusing place, especially in the mist, if you haven't been there a couple of times.
ALC
In reply to smolders:
I have to admit once descending the wrong side of Scafell Pike in the mist... had map but no compass.
I have to admit once descending the wrong side of Scafell Pike in the mist... had map but no compass.
In reply to smolders:
Happened to me on top of the Glyders in V dense fog/cloud - for a while everyone I met asked me where they were and which was the path.
It amazed me how many people were out without a map/compass.
Happened to me on top of the Glyders in V dense fog/cloud - for a while everyone I met asked me where they were and which was the path.
It amazed me how many people were out without a map/compass.
In reply to Amster-dan: i once spent about half-an-hour up there trying to find the trig point to absolutely confirm where i was
bastards had removed it hadn't they?
bastards had removed it hadn't they?
In reply to smolders:
That sounds about right to me, isn't that the way down to Wasdale via Mickledore and Hollow Stones then?
> 3. Summit of Scafell Pike. Had a laminated photocopy map covering the Scafell Pike area. Wanted to descend to Wasdale, but were going down into the gap between Scafell Pike and Broad Crag.
That sounds about right to me, isn't that the way down to Wasdale via Mickledore and Hollow Stones then?
In reply to smolders: Gunnerside Gill/Swinner Gill 2-3 years ago, on the way across the moors in about a foot of snow and bad foggy conditions, came across 2 Italian tourists in shorts, T-Shirts, shivering, no map, completely lost. Pointed in right direction and given some advice!
Loch Brandy, Scotland at the weekend. Out for a short walk in the hills from the Clova Hotel car park. Rainy and misty. Two Czechs (jeans, trainers, dreadlocks, no waterproofs) pull up next to us and ask directions to Ben Tirnan (SP?). Show them on the map as they have no map either! They decide it is to far away, (5km max) and they then loiter and surreptitiously follow us up to Brandy and when we stop for lunch they make thier way back down. Don't know where they got to but they arrived back at the car park after we emerged from the climbers bar!
Before the flood of complaints come my way that I have only mentioned foreigners, I can assure you that I have had several dealings with natives of this land who are just as foolhardy. I am astounded that people still set uf up hills, inappropriately dressed and totally unprepared!
Loch Brandy, Scotland at the weekend. Out for a short walk in the hills from the Clova Hotel car park. Rainy and misty. Two Czechs (jeans, trainers, dreadlocks, no waterproofs) pull up next to us and ask directions to Ben Tirnan (SP?). Show them on the map as they have no map either! They decide it is to far away, (5km max) and they then loiter and surreptitiously follow us up to Brandy and when we stop for lunch they make thier way back down. Don't know where they got to but they arrived back at the car park after we emerged from the climbers bar!
Before the flood of complaints come my way that I have only mentioned foreigners, I can assure you that I have had several dealings with natives of this land who are just as foolhardy. I am astounded that people still set uf up hills, inappropriately dressed and totally unprepared!
In reply to fool:
guffaw - we bumped into some chaps on top of High Stile who were pointing at their gps in the murk and announcing that they were at 17151 (I can't remember the exact numbers but it was definitely five figures). We showed them the map and said 'we're here', they looked blank and announced again that 'we're at 17151'. Then went barrelling off towards a very steep drop...
guffaw - we bumped into some chaps on top of High Stile who were pointing at their gps in the murk and announcing that they were at 17151 (I can't remember the exact numbers but it was definitely five figures). We showed them the map and said 'we're here', they looked blank and announced again that 'we're at 17151'. Then went barrelling off towards a very steep drop...
In reply to Rockmonkey680:
Er, not quite, that's 180 degs out. The top of little Narrow Cove between Scafell and Broad Crag leads down to the Corridor Route and then Sty Head.
Er, not quite, that's 180 degs out. The top of little Narrow Cove between Scafell and Broad Crag leads down to the Corridor Route and then Sty Head.
In reply to Rockmonkey680:
Spotted my error. just realised you said Broad Crag NOT to be confused with Broad Stand. I'm back in my box!
> (In reply to smolders)
>
> [...]
>
> That sounds about right to me, isn't that the way down to Wasdale via Mickledore and Hollow Stones then?
>
> [...]
>
> That sounds about right to me, isn't that the way down to Wasdale via Mickledore and Hollow Stones then?
Spotted my error. just realised you said Broad Crag NOT to be confused with Broad Stand. I'm back in my box!
In reply to dave wearing:
Agreed. Please see my previous post :-S
> (In reply to Rockmonkey680)
>
> Er, not quite, that's 180 degs out. The top of little Narrow Cove between Scafell and Broad Crag leads down to the Corridor Route and then Sty Head.
>
> Er, not quite, that's 180 degs out. The top of little Narrow Cove between Scafell and Broad Crag leads down to the Corridor Route and then Sty Head.
Agreed. Please see my previous post :-S
In reply to fool:
No they shouldn't. Was up on Fairfield one breezy, rainy and very cloudy day. A group of 3 come up to me as we near the summit from St Sunday Crag and ask which way it is to Hart Crag, because predictably they're doing the horseshoe. They have GPS, but they still need to ask. And then when I show them the map, the compass, and then point in the direction of Hart Crag they promptly walk off in the direction of St Sunday Crag.
I hope they enjoyed the long walk up Kirkstone Pass and down the Struggle.
No they shouldn't. Was up on Fairfield one breezy, rainy and very cloudy day. A group of 3 come up to me as we near the summit from St Sunday Crag and ask which way it is to Hart Crag, because predictably they're doing the horseshoe. They have GPS, but they still need to ask. And then when I show them the map, the compass, and then point in the direction of Hart Crag they promptly walk off in the direction of St Sunday Crag.
I hope they enjoyed the long walk up Kirkstone Pass and down the Struggle.
In reply to smolders:
Getting lost at Esk Hause is traditional. It's happened to me more than once.
Getting lost at Esk Hause is traditional. It's happened to me more than once.
In reply to Calder:
I once barrelled in an overenthusiastic way down St Sunday Crag and there's a nice walk by Brotherswater and over that pass in the back - seemed nicer than walking back along the road over Kirkstone Pass.
I once barrelled in an overenthusiastic way down St Sunday Crag and there's a nice walk by Brotherswater and over that pass in the back - seemed nicer than walking back along the road over Kirkstone Pass.
In reply to smolders:
It was ever thus and is not confined to tourists and punters.
>
>
> I was wondering whether this sort of thing happens a lot
>
> I was wondering whether this sort of thing happens a lot
It was ever thus and is not confined to tourists and punters.
In reply to dave wearing:
I thought that Little Narrowcove lead down into Eskdale, not sure what the gully/cove on the Wasdale side of that col is called. It's used on the Borrowdale Fell race to get down to the Corridor Route.
ALC
I thought that Little Narrowcove lead down into Eskdale, not sure what the gully/cove on the Wasdale side of that col is called. It's used on the Borrowdale Fell race to get down to the Corridor Route.
ALC
In reply to smolders: I met some lovely modern day explorers up there recently. One party had mislaid his girlfriend and didn't know where he'd put her or where he was. Others had lost a chap called Dan in a red jacket (he may still be up there). Another was waving a map and a GPS around bemusedly, obviously misplaced; when we asked for a go on his GPS to pinpoint the location he said, and I quote verbatim 'oh no, it doesn't tell you where you are'. To be fair we were lost too because we hadn't bothered to get the map out and were relying on our sound experienced hill sense, which steered us unerringly down into hollow stones instead of the corridoor route. What fun would life be if we all knew exactly where we were all the time?
In reply to fool:
And can use them !
Anyway, not long from now hopefully all the mobile phones will have GPS and maps.
I think the iphone has it, but not sure if it has contour maps , it may just be road maps ?
> (In reply to smolders)
>
> Yep, more people should carry GPSs with them.
>
> Yep, more people should carry GPSs with them.
And can use them !
Anyway, not long from now hopefully all the mobile phones will have GPS and maps.
I think the iphone has it, but not sure if it has contour maps , it may just be road maps ?
In reply to Jim C: surely a few discrete signposts up there would be more useful
In reply to dan bailey:
>What fun would life be if we all knew exactly where we were all the time?
I quite agree. And making (and learning from) mistakes is all part of the experience.
But there seemed to be a lot more people than usual asking for directions on Saturday. I was wondering whether this was merely coincidence, or part of an increasing trend.
>What fun would life be if we all knew exactly where we were all the time?
I quite agree. And making (and learning from) mistakes is all part of the experience.
But there seemed to be a lot more people than usual asking for directions on Saturday. I was wondering whether this was merely coincidence, or part of an increasing trend.
In reply to Alex Roddie:
I will resist the obvious comment based on the 0.5 thread.
Somethings are best kept to yourself.
Phill
I will resist the obvious comment based on the 0.5 thread.
Somethings are best kept to yourself.
Phill
In reply to Jim C: Great, even more idiots with a false sense of security heading to the hills! I can just see it now, forgets to charge phone, gets up hill, great aunt Gloria rings, battery dies, no GPS, compass, map, waterproofs. It will be like a Darwin Awards Convention, we can sell tickets and make some score cards...
In reply to smolders: I've had my fun up there. Two of us decided one damp January day that we'd go and do a route on Scafell - Slingsby's chimney, I think. Having got the rucksacks out of the car at the end of Borrowdale, we discovered that we had neither map nor compass but, being roughty toughty mountain men, who'd been up that way a lot of times, we decided to go anyway, and off we trotted looking for the Corridor route.
Some hours later, we asked one of a large number of people sitting around in the mist just where we were, and were surprised to find ourselves on top of Scafell Pike. Not what we'd planned but it'd do, Scafell was only over the way, so off we went again.
After three quarters of an hour's aimless wandering in the mist, we arrived once more on the top of Scafell Pike, without any clear idea of where we'd been in the meantime. At this point, we decided that enough was enough and we'd go to the pub and back we trotted.
Still in the mist, we turned off the path too soon to get to the head of Borrowdale and found ourselves standing at Angle Tarn. After a long walk down Langstrath and back up to the Borrowdale road end, we decided that yes, we really should have known better...
T.
Some hours later, we asked one of a large number of people sitting around in the mist just where we were, and were surprised to find ourselves on top of Scafell Pike. Not what we'd planned but it'd do, Scafell was only over the way, so off we went again.
After three quarters of an hour's aimless wandering in the mist, we arrived once more on the top of Scafell Pike, without any clear idea of where we'd been in the meantime. At this point, we decided that enough was enough and we'd go to the pub and back we trotted.
Still in the mist, we turned off the path too soon to get to the head of Borrowdale and found ourselves standing at Angle Tarn. After a long walk down Langstrath and back up to the Borrowdale road end, we decided that yes, we really should have known better...
T.
In reply to Phill Wan:
Oh come on, I didn't say I'd got lost at Esk Hause recently! =P But in past years as a hillwalking numpty I managed to lose my way there in atrocious conditions on a couple of occasions. I didn't get badly lost, and navigated my way back to safety, but my point is that we were all beginners once.
> (In reply to Alex Roddie)
> I will resist the obvious comment based on the 0.5 thread.
> Somethings are best kept to yourself.
> Phill
> I will resist the obvious comment based on the 0.5 thread.
> Somethings are best kept to yourself.
> Phill
Oh come on, I didn't say I'd got lost at Esk Hause recently! =P But in past years as a hillwalking numpty I managed to lose my way there in atrocious conditions on a couple of occasions. I didn't get badly lost, and navigated my way back to safety, but my point is that we were all beginners once.
In reply to smolders:
I wonder how many experienced mountaineers/hill walkers (ie those who have regularly gone into the hills over many years in all weathers) can honestly say, hand on heart, they have never been just a teeny weeny bit lost at some time?
Bill Tilman summed it up nicely in one of his books on Himalayan exploration. "I can say that I have never been lost, just mightly confused for several days"
I wonder how many experienced mountaineers/hill walkers (ie those who have regularly gone into the hills over many years in all weathers) can honestly say, hand on heart, they have never been just a teeny weeny bit lost at some time?
Bill Tilman summed it up nicely in one of his books on Himalayan exploration. "I can say that I have never been lost, just mightly confused for several days"
In reply to Jim C:
That might be the key!
I was walking Westwards down by Fuar Loch Mor (I'd left my tent on the North bank of Lochan Fada, and intended to do the West ridge of A' Mhaighdean, in accordance with Mr. Bailey's commendation), and there were a couple of lads walking towards me. So we stopped for a chat, as you do.
They also were aiming for the West ridge of A' Mhaighdean. Being a helpful soul, I pointed out the large mountain to the South of us, and the ridge coming down westwards from the summit (to be fair, the mist was about 900 m, so the top could not be seen). They had typed the grid ref of the point at which they had to turn off the path into the GPS, and proceded to walk past it.
So they asked what the East side was like (easy grass slopes, they told me, according to the book), and it didn't look easy from here....
When I got to the top, I saw no evidence that they had made it: I had a long stop there, as well. The mist suddenly lifted, and the view is fantastic.
Y.
> (In reply to fool)
> [...]
>
> And can use them !
> [...]
>
> And can use them !
That might be the key!
I was walking Westwards down by Fuar Loch Mor (I'd left my tent on the North bank of Lochan Fada, and intended to do the West ridge of A' Mhaighdean, in accordance with Mr. Bailey's commendation), and there were a couple of lads walking towards me. So we stopped for a chat, as you do.
They also were aiming for the West ridge of A' Mhaighdean. Being a helpful soul, I pointed out the large mountain to the South of us, and the ridge coming down westwards from the summit (to be fair, the mist was about 900 m, so the top could not be seen). They had typed the grid ref of the point at which they had to turn off the path into the GPS, and proceded to walk past it.
So they asked what the East side was like (easy grass slopes, they told me, according to the book), and it didn't look easy from here....
When I got to the top, I saw no evidence that they had made it: I had a long stop there, as well. The mist suddenly lifted, and the view is fantastic.
Y.
In reply to Pursued by a bear:
done something similar a few years ago.
drove madly up to the lakes in a cold snap after uni exams. got up at 4am to walk up to great end in thick mist and rain (winter climbing haha) arrived at approximate location of great end in the dark/cloud/rain and waited till it got light sod all ice so we decided to go for a walk instead. walked happily about a bit and decided to head back. My mate tried vary hard to convince me (via sense of direction) to head down in a direction that would take us beautifully into wasdale (car parked in borrowdale) luckily i dissuaded him and lead us unerringly into Langstrath. long walk back to the car.
done something similar a few years ago.
drove madly up to the lakes in a cold snap after uni exams. got up at 4am to walk up to great end in thick mist and rain (winter climbing haha) arrived at approximate location of great end in the dark/cloud/rain and waited till it got light sod all ice so we decided to go for a walk instead. walked happily about a bit and decided to head back. My mate tried vary hard to convince me (via sense of direction) to head down in a direction that would take us beautifully into wasdale (car parked in borrowdale) luckily i dissuaded him and lead us unerringly into Langstrath. long walk back to the car.
In reply to Jim C:
GPS and OS maps are available for quite a few phones via, for example, Viewranger:
http://www.viewranger.com/phonesupport.php
GPS and OS maps are available for quite a few phones via, for example, Viewranger:
http://www.viewranger.com/phonesupport.php
In reply to Trangia:
There have been many occasions when I've gone the wrong way, or found myself somewhere other than where I thought I was.
But I don't think I've ever asked a stranger for directions.
There have been many occasions when I've gone the wrong way, or found myself somewhere other than where I thought I was.
But I don't think I've ever asked a stranger for directions.
In reply to smolders:
I'd agree with you there. I would be too ashamed to do that! I'd rather risk a night out or a twenty mile walk back to the proper valley. (Don't any you who were with me on Pinnacle Ridge on Sgurr Nan Gillean when we got caught in a storm one winter and I persuaded you the way off was to ab off 180 degrees out from were we should have, say a word!!)
> (In reply to Trangia)
>
> There have been many occasions when I've gone the wrong way, or found myself somewhere other than where I thought I was.
>
> But I don't think I've ever asked a stranger for directions.
>
> There have been many occasions when I've gone the wrong way, or found myself somewhere other than where I thought I was.
>
> But I don't think I've ever asked a stranger for directions.
I'd agree with you there. I would be too ashamed to do that! I'd rather risk a night out or a twenty mile walk back to the proper valley. (Don't any you who were with me on Pinnacle Ridge on Sgurr Nan Gillean when we got caught in a storm one winter and I persuaded you the way off was to ab off 180 degrees out from were we should have, say a word!!)
In reply to smolders:
Same here. I much prefer to wander aimlessly about for a bit until I find a landmark, or if I'm in the car, driving aimlessly around at ever increasing speed seems to work.
> (In reply to Trangia)
>
> There have been many occasions when I've gone the wrong way, or found myself somewhere other than where I thought I was.
>
> But I don't think I've ever asked a stranger for directions.
>
> There have been many occasions when I've gone the wrong way, or found myself somewhere other than where I thought I was.
>
> But I don't think I've ever asked a stranger for directions.
Same here. I much prefer to wander aimlessly about for a bit until I find a landmark, or if I'm in the car, driving aimlessly around at ever increasing speed seems to work.
In reply to smolders:
Much better to just blindly follow strangers in the hope they set off from the same place you did. Like the group of 15 or so who followed me after I'd got lost on the way down Black Combe (classic 'oh, it must be this way...' moment). They followed me for 2 miles or so in the wrong direction. Then once I'd sussed out where I was and started to head back to the correct path they all just sat down. So I left them behind.
Having said that, I'd still be very reluctant to ask anyone for directions.
> (In reply to Trangia)
>
> There have been many occasions when I've gone the wrong way, or found myself somewhere other than where I thought I was.
>
> But I don't think I've ever asked a stranger for directions.
>
> There have been many occasions when I've gone the wrong way, or found myself somewhere other than where I thought I was.
>
> But I don't think I've ever asked a stranger for directions.
Much better to just blindly follow strangers in the hope they set off from the same place you did. Like the group of 15 or so who followed me after I'd got lost on the way down Black Combe (classic 'oh, it must be this way...' moment). They followed me for 2 miles or so in the wrong direction. Then once I'd sussed out where I was and started to head back to the correct path they all just sat down. So I left them behind.
Having said that, I'd still be very reluctant to ask anyone for directions.
In reply to Alex Roddie:
Lets face it, you are never more than a couple of hours from a pub in the Lake District - even if it is in the wrong valley !
> Getting lost at Esk Hause is traditional. It's happened to me more than once.
Lets face it, you are never more than a couple of hours from a pub in the Lake District - even if it is in the wrong valley !
In reply to smolders:
I can't say I remember if I have or have not but wouldn't rule out the possibility. Navigation is about making use of the available data if that comes from A N Other so be it. Not saying I would automatically rely on it but would add it to the mix.
I can remember years ago meeting up with some teenagers coming passed Esk Hause they were completely knackered and trying to get to Borrowdale in a pea souper. They thought they had seriously screwed up and believed they were lost (in fact they had bitten off more than they could chew in the time available). When we got back to the valley and they were being given a dressing down by an understandably upset parent I tried to explain they had done the right thing by (a) recognising a problem (b) not making it worse by ploughing on regardless (c) finding a solution to said problem.
> (In reply to Trangia)
>
> But I don't think I've ever asked a stranger for directions.
>
> But I don't think I've ever asked a stranger for directions.
I can't say I remember if I have or have not but wouldn't rule out the possibility. Navigation is about making use of the available data if that comes from A N Other so be it. Not saying I would automatically rely on it but would add it to the mix.
I can remember years ago meeting up with some teenagers coming passed Esk Hause they were completely knackered and trying to get to Borrowdale in a pea souper. They thought they had seriously screwed up and believed they were lost (in fact they had bitten off more than they could chew in the time available). When we got back to the valley and they were being given a dressing down by an understandably upset parent I tried to explain they had done the right thing by (a) recognising a problem (b) not making it worse by ploughing on regardless (c) finding a solution to said problem.
In reply to fool:
GPS ? I went right off them after making the mistake of relying on one on the Ben. We topped out on Tower Ridge in total shite out conditions so we bundled ropes into our bags, wandered onto the plateau and turned on my mate's brand new GPS - which went totally blank. Having wandered away from our only definite reference point and with maps stowed under all the ropes and gear, we were very greatful to bump into and tag along with some real walkers who were taking a more considered approach to their navigation.
GPS ? I went right off them after making the mistake of relying on one on the Ben. We topped out on Tower Ridge in total shite out conditions so we bundled ropes into our bags, wandered onto the plateau and turned on my mate's brand new GPS - which went totally blank. Having wandered away from our only definite reference point and with maps stowed under all the ropes and gear, we were very greatful to bump into and tag along with some real walkers who were taking a more considered approach to their navigation.
In reply to Trangia:
>I wonder how many experienced mountaineers/hill walkers (ie those who have regularly gone into the hills over many years in all weathers) can honestly say, hand on heart, they have never been just a teeny weeny bit lost at some time?
NEVER, well there was the time on top of Nevis when my mate was asked to get map and compass out of my sack and only got out the compass so we headed on a bearing I knew for the top of Glen Nevis, descended by the waterslide with axes sparking off the rocks as we skated down it, and walked all the way back to the hostel.
Then there was the time I went for a walk up to Sty head tarn, large footpath, no problems, except I forgot to go via Seathwaite farm so strolled up to Stockley Bridge, turned left instead of heading up the steep path there;
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=322500&Y=509500&A=Y&...
Marvellous, now I was on the way up Grains Gill to Esk Hause, well it was well scratched so no problems, and finding the path to Great End and on to Scafell Pike was also scratched so eventually I arrived at the summit.
Finding the way down was harder, after all I had no map or compass, it had been misty all day with visibility around 200yards so taking a path opposite the one I had come up would hopefully lead to Mickledore and safety. It worked, the hardest thing then was finding the start of the Corridor route from there. Descend about 200ft at right hand side and found the cairn, a mere stroll then back to Borrowdale.
At no time was I lost, just didn't do the walk intended due to starting from the wrong place.
Esk Hause, seen many experienced people take the wrong path in bad conditions, including many Vaux mountain trial competitors one very bad day when only a handful of people finished, and Jos Naylor said it was the worst he had ever been out in. Had the conditions been like that on my stroll I would have given up before reaching there.
Getting the bearing wrong here and walking along chatting can lead to a long walk from Wythburn when you intended to be in Grasmere, we nearly did it in winter years ago;
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=328245&Y=509280&A=Y&...
>I wonder how many experienced mountaineers/hill walkers (ie those who have regularly gone into the hills over many years in all weathers) can honestly say, hand on heart, they have never been just a teeny weeny bit lost at some time?
NEVER, well there was the time on top of Nevis when my mate was asked to get map and compass out of my sack and only got out the compass so we headed on a bearing I knew for the top of Glen Nevis, descended by the waterslide with axes sparking off the rocks as we skated down it, and walked all the way back to the hostel.
Then there was the time I went for a walk up to Sty head tarn, large footpath, no problems, except I forgot to go via Seathwaite farm so strolled up to Stockley Bridge, turned left instead of heading up the steep path there;
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=322500&Y=509500&A=Y&...
Marvellous, now I was on the way up Grains Gill to Esk Hause, well it was well scratched so no problems, and finding the path to Great End and on to Scafell Pike was also scratched so eventually I arrived at the summit.
Finding the way down was harder, after all I had no map or compass, it had been misty all day with visibility around 200yards so taking a path opposite the one I had come up would hopefully lead to Mickledore and safety. It worked, the hardest thing then was finding the start of the Corridor route from there. Descend about 200ft at right hand side and found the cairn, a mere stroll then back to Borrowdale.
At no time was I lost, just didn't do the walk intended due to starting from the wrong place.
Esk Hause, seen many experienced people take the wrong path in bad conditions, including many Vaux mountain trial competitors one very bad day when only a handful of people finished, and Jos Naylor said it was the worst he had ever been out in. Had the conditions been like that on my stroll I would have given up before reaching there.
Getting the bearing wrong here and walking along chatting can lead to a long walk from Wythburn when you intended to be in Grasmere, we nearly did it in winter years ago;
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=328245&Y=509280&A=Y&...
In reply to toad:
Is the train back running to the ("new and improved") summit complex?
> (In reply to smolders)
>> I texted him back and explained about the train....
Is the train back running to the ("new and improved") summit complex?
In reply to TRNovice:
>Is the train back running to the ("new and improved") summit complex?
Don't know, couldn't find it on the trainline website.
>Is the train back running to the ("new and improved") summit complex?
Don't know, couldn't find it on the trainline website.
In reply to smolders:
There is a passable climber who used to think that the red on the compass pointed to the south because that it is were it is hotter.
There is a passable climber who used to think that the red on the compass pointed to the south because that it is were it is hotter.
In reply to smolders: I once met some walkers on the top of Scafell celebrating reaching the top of England. Seemed a shame to tell them they were on the wrong hill, so I let them be.
In reply to smolders:
One early morning last March at Seathwaite Farm in Borrowdale we were having a cuppa and generally sorting ourselves out for the day when a battered Renault pulled up alongside:
The driver, the lone occupant, leans out:
“Is this Brotherikeld Farm?”
Now I recognise the name but can’t place it, so I ask the driver if he has any more information.
“It’s on this map”
He pulls out a thin pamphlet with a simple line drawing depicting a route to Scafell from Brotherikeld in Eskdale.
I tell him he’s in the wrong valley completely.
“How far is it then mate?”
After being to told about 10 miles as the crow flies and at least an hour by road he asks for directions. I ask him if he has a road atlas.
“Yes” he says, “It’s in the boot”.
He goes to the back of the car and rummages around a bit and hands the book over. It’s a Liverpool A-Z.
One early morning last March at Seathwaite Farm in Borrowdale we were having a cuppa and generally sorting ourselves out for the day when a battered Renault pulled up alongside:
The driver, the lone occupant, leans out:
“Is this Brotherikeld Farm?”
Now I recognise the name but can’t place it, so I ask the driver if he has any more information.
“It’s on this map”
He pulls out a thin pamphlet with a simple line drawing depicting a route to Scafell from Brotherikeld in Eskdale.
I tell him he’s in the wrong valley completely.
“How far is it then mate?”
After being to told about 10 miles as the crow flies and at least an hour by road he asks for directions. I ask him if he has a road atlas.
“Yes” he says, “It’s in the boot”.
He goes to the back of the car and rummages around a bit and hands the book over. It’s a Liverpool A-Z.
In reply to smolders: Possibly worth mentioning the car load of Hassidic jews I met at the top of Snake Pass - They were heading for Edale and were trying to find the turn off. I was confused, so they showed me the map. I'm guessing there aren't any long distance footpaths marked on Israeli road maps, but they weren't getting their people carrier along the path they wanted to follow to Edale...
In reply to smolders:
I have to confess I've been lost on Esk Hause in abysmal conditions on New Year's Eve the year before last (or it might have been the year before that?) We had a map and compass, but the wind and icy rain were so bad we didn't like to look at them too much, as it hurt when we lifted our heads! We'd just decided to not go for the summit of Scafell Pike as the conditions were too horrible (being pretty keen summit baggers this is an indication of how bad it was) so we decided to use our 'mountain sense' and take a cross-country short-cut down to the shelter at Esk Hause which we had left about ten minutes ago. We walked down the wrong side of the hill!
We realised after about 10 minutes then had great fun wandering around in pretty much zero visibility, several times missing the path down to Esk Hause! We got there after about half an hour of wandering about.
I was with my Dad, who has 25-odd years of mountain experience, and we usually walk in the winter, and often in bad visibility on map and compass alone. I think it was just one of those times - we were tired and cold and wind-whipped and made a dodgy decision to go off-path.
Getting back down to the shelter I've rarely been happier to rest against a wet drystone wall and eat a ham sandwich and a chocolate bar!
I wouldn't like to think what it would have been like to be up there with no map or compass, and without decent waterproofs. Though I do regularly see walkers in the Lakes, even in winter, who've made this choice...
I have to confess I've been lost on Esk Hause in abysmal conditions on New Year's Eve the year before last (or it might have been the year before that?) We had a map and compass, but the wind and icy rain were so bad we didn't like to look at them too much, as it hurt when we lifted our heads! We'd just decided to not go for the summit of Scafell Pike as the conditions were too horrible (being pretty keen summit baggers this is an indication of how bad it was) so we decided to use our 'mountain sense' and take a cross-country short-cut down to the shelter at Esk Hause which we had left about ten minutes ago. We walked down the wrong side of the hill!
We realised after about 10 minutes then had great fun wandering around in pretty much zero visibility, several times missing the path down to Esk Hause! We got there after about half an hour of wandering about.
I was with my Dad, who has 25-odd years of mountain experience, and we usually walk in the winter, and often in bad visibility on map and compass alone. I think it was just one of those times - we were tired and cold and wind-whipped and made a dodgy decision to go off-path.
Getting back down to the shelter I've rarely been happier to rest against a wet drystone wall and eat a ham sandwich and a chocolate bar!
I wouldn't like to think what it would have been like to be up there with no map or compass, and without decent waterproofs. Though I do regularly see walkers in the Lakes, even in winter, who've made this choice...
In reply to AndrewS:
That reminds me of the story of one of the Ghurkas in teh burmese campaign (you cna read abotu it in John Masters' bugles adn a tiger, or possibly the road past mandalay). whether he escaped after being captured, or escaped capture i forget, but after a couple of months walking he emerged from teh jungle somewhere in northern india, where he finds teh local commander who sends him off ot be debriefed by intelligence.
it turns out he had a map, on which he had assiduously marked all teh paths adn villages he'd passed, whether he'd taken those paths or not. understandably teh intelligence officers plannign the burma campaign were very interested to see all this data.
except when asked for his map, he pulls out a copy of teh London A to Z, covered in indecipherable scribbles.
Still, he had a map and successfully used it to get home, job done!
That reminds me of the story of one of the Ghurkas in teh burmese campaign (you cna read abotu it in John Masters' bugles adn a tiger, or possibly the road past mandalay). whether he escaped after being captured, or escaped capture i forget, but after a couple of months walking he emerged from teh jungle somewhere in northern india, where he finds teh local commander who sends him off ot be debriefed by intelligence.
it turns out he had a map, on which he had assiduously marked all teh paths adn villages he'd passed, whether he'd taken those paths or not. understandably teh intelligence officers plannign the burma campaign were very interested to see all this data.
except when asked for his map, he pulls out a copy of teh London A to Z, covered in indecipherable scribbles.
Still, he had a map and successfully used it to get home, job done!
In reply to smolders:
I learnt my lesson about hills and cloud having walked entirely the wrong way off Tryfan, despite having nothing more difficult to do than keep heading downwards. Overall it was a useful (chastening) experience to discover quite how much you can cock things up.
The only thing that haunts me is that shortly after working out which valley I'd ended up in, we saw a couple heading up who were clearly confused about where they were. I figured that they a) wouldn't head up there without at least a map and compass, and b) wouldn't get into much trouble if they did. Turns out I was wrong on both counts, and the bloke ended up dead after walking over a cliff. I do wonder if I had made a jokey comment about ballsing up myself, whether that would have prompted them to either (quietly) think twice or at least get a check on where they were from us.
On a brighter note, one of my friends demonstrated the ability of the human mind to fit reality to match the map when he refused to accept he'd followed the wrong end of the needle for the last two hours. His bemused girlfriend only convinced him that something was wrong once the actual sign for Llanberis hove into view.
I learnt my lesson about hills and cloud having walked entirely the wrong way off Tryfan, despite having nothing more difficult to do than keep heading downwards. Overall it was a useful (chastening) experience to discover quite how much you can cock things up.
The only thing that haunts me is that shortly after working out which valley I'd ended up in, we saw a couple heading up who were clearly confused about where they were. I figured that they a) wouldn't head up there without at least a map and compass, and b) wouldn't get into much trouble if they did. Turns out I was wrong on both counts, and the bloke ended up dead after walking over a cliff. I do wonder if I had made a jokey comment about ballsing up myself, whether that would have prompted them to either (quietly) think twice or at least get a check on where they were from us.
On a brighter note, one of my friends demonstrated the ability of the human mind to fit reality to match the map when he refused to accept he'd followed the wrong end of the needle for the last two hours. His bemused girlfriend only convinced him that something was wrong once the actual sign for Llanberis hove into view.
In reply to smolders:
I came across a guy a few years ago on Helvellyn whilst out winter climbing.
We had parked at the Swirls carpark (Thirlmere side) walked up into Brown Cove Crags to climb and then went over to Red Tarn climbing on the main headwall. After climbing we started making our way back to the car just as we got out of the clag we came across a guy on his own huddled behind a boulder out of the wind looking quite worried. We pulled in for a break and asked if he was OK, he asked if the car park in the distance was Patterdale,lol. He was quite shocked that he was on the wrong side of the mountain a few hours from where he wanted to be. It turned out he followed the cairns from Fairfield down to Grizedale Tarn and then up over Dollywagon and along Helvellyn thinking these would take him back to the Glenriding/Patterdale area.
I came across a guy a few years ago on Helvellyn whilst out winter climbing.
We had parked at the Swirls carpark (Thirlmere side) walked up into Brown Cove Crags to climb and then went over to Red Tarn climbing on the main headwall. After climbing we started making our way back to the car just as we got out of the clag we came across a guy on his own huddled behind a boulder out of the wind looking quite worried. We pulled in for a break and asked if he was OK, he asked if the car park in the distance was Patterdale,lol. He was quite shocked that he was on the wrong side of the mountain a few hours from where he wanted to be. It turned out he followed the cairns from Fairfield down to Grizedale Tarn and then up over Dollywagon and along Helvellyn thinking these would take him back to the Glenriding/Patterdale area.
In reply to Pursued by a bear:
LMAO Love it, pure comedy I can just imagine the look on the face and the conversation that day!!
> (In reply to smolders) >>
> After three quarters of an hour's aimless wandering in the mist, we arrived once more on the top of Scafell Pike, without any clear idea of where we'd been in the meantime. At this point, we decided that enough was enough and we'd go to the pub and back we trotted.
> After three quarters of an hour's aimless wandering in the mist, we arrived once more on the top of Scafell Pike, without any clear idea of where we'd been in the meantime. At this point, we decided that enough was enough and we'd go to the pub and back we trotted.
LMAO Love it, pure comedy I can just imagine the look on the face and the conversation that day!!
In reply to smolders: I was told about a young chap who went missing in Snowdonia. His father was questioned by mountain rescue members regarding any info his son may have left regarding his route plans etc..,to which his father responded and I quote "God knows where he's gone I mean he doesn't even have a compass for this area". Still makes me laugh!!
In reply to smolders:
It really does make you wonder sometimes when you see people out on the hill.
Last bank holiday I was up somewhere in the lakes and saw a few people obvioulsy looking for a friend: shouting, squinting at walkers way in the distance etc etc. I overheard them describe him to each other as they tried to match his clothes to the walkers far in front of them. I politely pointed out that the man matching that description was just behind them, less than 100m behind a rise. I tried not to smile when they asked if was definitely him, and further described him as " a heavy fella". From the look of him it was very unlikely he'd be anywhere in front!
Best one was a guy in the brecons who walked past me and my group a few times back and forth, clutching an AA guidebook. Eventually he plucked up the courage to approach me for assistance. I pulled myself away from leaning on my minibus, at the top of a national long distance track, parked on the side of a road, next to the only 90 degree bend in the road with a very steep section after a huge flat section, and politely helped him.
He was trying to find his car. I turned to look at the car park at the very obvious bend in the road about 300m away, with only one car in it. I described his car to him, and still he wasn't sure. He started a discussion about the shade of green the car was, as it might not be his!!!
When he did drive off in it, I waited about 10 minutes before the same car appeared again going in the opposite direction.
Some people really want those darwin awards.
I have been properly concerned for my whereabouts 'once' before - got a grip on myself, navigated my little socks off and set about retreating to the car and home with heart in mouth and tail firmly between legs.
Apparently it's great experience!
It really does make you wonder sometimes when you see people out on the hill.
Last bank holiday I was up somewhere in the lakes and saw a few people obvioulsy looking for a friend: shouting, squinting at walkers way in the distance etc etc. I overheard them describe him to each other as they tried to match his clothes to the walkers far in front of them. I politely pointed out that the man matching that description was just behind them, less than 100m behind a rise. I tried not to smile when they asked if was definitely him, and further described him as " a heavy fella". From the look of him it was very unlikely he'd be anywhere in front!
Best one was a guy in the brecons who walked past me and my group a few times back and forth, clutching an AA guidebook. Eventually he plucked up the courage to approach me for assistance. I pulled myself away from leaning on my minibus, at the top of a national long distance track, parked on the side of a road, next to the only 90 degree bend in the road with a very steep section after a huge flat section, and politely helped him.
He was trying to find his car. I turned to look at the car park at the very obvious bend in the road about 300m away, with only one car in it. I described his car to him, and still he wasn't sure. He started a discussion about the shade of green the car was, as it might not be his!!!
When he did drive off in it, I waited about 10 minutes before the same car appeared again going in the opposite direction.
Some people really want those darwin awards.
I have been properly concerned for my whereabouts 'once' before - got a grip on myself, navigated my little socks off and set about retreating to the car and home with heart in mouth and tail firmly between legs.
Apparently it's great experience!
In reply to smolders:
As someone who once failed to find Llyn Bochlwyd from Ogwen Cottage and ended up dragging his pregnant with twins wife nearly all the way up Tryfan instead, I'd like to say just how much better a navigator I am than all you ill-equipped bumblies.
As someone who once failed to find Llyn Bochlwyd from Ogwen Cottage and ended up dragging his pregnant with twins wife nearly all the way up Tryfan instead, I'd like to say just how much better a navigator I am than all you ill-equipped bumblies.
In reply to Anonymous and Martin76: I have also failed to find Milestone Buttress in the past and stood at the bottom of Bochlwyd Buttress instead trying to make the descriptions match, although admittedly the weather was utterly foul, it was very early in my climbing career and I was in the company of someone who had previously climbed on Milestone, so Ican be excused of taking full responsibility for that...
T.
T.
In reply to Pursued by a bear:
I can trump that, many years back as a novice punter we travelled from Hathersage to Stanage. We realised we had taken a wrong turn somewhere around Sheffield railway station.
I can trump that, many years back as a novice punter we travelled from Hathersage to Stanage. We realised we had taken a wrong turn somewhere around Sheffield railway station.
In reply to smolders: Was the cloud down? I think it is easy to judge but I was in a similar predicament myself last year. Headed up Pavey Ark and then into the cloud. Tried to navigate to Pike o Blisco, something I have done many times in good conditions. I know how to navigate by compass and have done it in the past, but I got disorientated and lost the plot. Fortunately, a familiar landmark popped up and I was able to re-orientate. It is easy to get lost in the clouds even if you are a good navigator under good conditions. Some of the mountain tops are very broad and it is easy to go too far or not far enough. Also, there are paths here there and everywhere and it is difficult to know if you are on the one which corresponds to the one on the map.
In reply to smolders:
about 19 years ago, sitting in a tea garden in Hathersage looking at a map of Grindelwald, just bought in Outside.
Heard a voice say, in a hushed tone, "Likeleh e's really wantin' Grindleford"
about 19 years ago, sitting in a tea garden in Hathersage looking at a map of Grindelwald, just bought in Outside.
Heard a voice say, in a hushed tone, "Likeleh e's really wantin' Grindleford"
In reply to Jon Dittman:
Easy, walk down from top of Pavey then down the path to new DG, along the road towards Blea tarn then cut off on the footpath where the road steepens;
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=328500&Y=505500&A=Y&...
I think you meant Pike o Stickle, and yes it is hummocky up there and easy to lose your way if you lose the motorway leading to it..;-P
Easy, walk down from top of Pavey then down the path to new DG, along the road towards Blea tarn then cut off on the footpath where the road steepens;
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=328500&Y=505500&A=Y&...
I think you meant Pike o Stickle, and yes it is hummocky up there and easy to lose your way if you lose the motorway leading to it..;-P
In reply to Bossys gran:
At the risk of being overly pedantic, this is entirely possible - as the magnetic field dips into the earth at the poles, compasses for the northern or southern hemisphere are weighted slightly so that they can't catch on the housing. It's therefore entirely possible to have a compass for the wrong area...
> (In reply to smolders) I was told about a young chap who went missing in Snowdonia. His father was questioned by mountain rescue members regarding any info his son may have left regarding his route plans etc..,to which his father responded and I quote "God knows where he's gone I mean he doesn't even have a compass for this area". Still makes me laugh!!
At the risk of being overly pedantic, this is entirely possible - as the magnetic field dips into the earth at the poles, compasses for the northern or southern hemisphere are weighted slightly so that they can't catch on the housing. It's therefore entirely possible to have a compass for the wrong area...
In reply to Pursued by a bear: whenever we have done something that incompetent we have sworn lifetime oaths of silence - have you just broken one?
Kinder is an endless source of amusement for getting lost despite knowing it "like the back of your hand" - I've given up trying and just run round and round in circles until I'm tired then come down
my favourite one with other people was meeting 2 guys by Fisherground on Conicton when out for a stroll with my dad. They had the OS 1:25000 and a GPS and asked us to point out where they were
Kinder is an endless source of amusement for getting lost despite knowing it "like the back of your hand" - I've given up trying and just run round and round in circles until I'm tired then come down
my favourite one with other people was meeting 2 guys by Fisherground on Conicton when out for a stroll with my dad. They had the OS 1:25000 and a GPS and asked us to point out where they were
In reply to Paul Atkinson: No, I have neither pride nor shame about these things which, combined with being easily amused even at my own expense, means that silence isn't an option.
And I haven't even mentioned failing to find Tower Ridge yet. In perfect summer sunshine . . .
T.
And I haven't even mentioned failing to find Tower Ridge yet. In perfect summer sunshine . . .
T.
In reply to smolders:
It's happened to me virtually every time I've been up there in mist....meeting other parties that are lost, that is!
Usually I was with one of the kids, and we'd be micro-navigating back down using the compass: "OK, there'll be a rocky outcrop on the left in about 150 yards, then we'll turn left around it and head down at whatever-bearing. Bearing xxx'll be the route we came up".
Our "record" was also 4 lost parties in one descent...including a pair of Wasdale MRT members who'd missed the turn-off onto the Corridor route. But they realised quite quickly and retraced their steps.
The party we met where the Corridor Route split from the route down into Hollow Stones were convinced they were at Esk Hause. They'd come up from Eskdale and must have traversed right around the mountain to get there (they hadn't summitted yet). The leader just wouldn't believe me when I told her where she really was. She just kept on saying "It's impossible! It's impossible!"
The most ungrateful bastards were the couple my son and I met at the summit when the clag came in, it got cold and then started to rain. They were both in shorts and the woman in the pair only had on a crop-top. She was starting to get cold so I lent her my fleece for the descent (I had a shell layer too). We were going on to Scafell so I asked her to drop it off at the campsite shop.
The cow never did, and it was nearly new!
> I walked up Scafell Pike on Saturday, from Langdale. It was bit cloudy, so not ideal conditions for navigation. Four separate groups stopped me to ask for directions. All were heading in a completely different direction from the way they thought they were going:
It's happened to me virtually every time I've been up there in mist....meeting other parties that are lost, that is!
Usually I was with one of the kids, and we'd be micro-navigating back down using the compass: "OK, there'll be a rocky outcrop on the left in about 150 yards, then we'll turn left around it and head down at whatever-bearing. Bearing xxx'll be the route we came up".
Our "record" was also 4 lost parties in one descent...including a pair of Wasdale MRT members who'd missed the turn-off onto the Corridor route. But they realised quite quickly and retraced their steps.
The party we met where the Corridor Route split from the route down into Hollow Stones were convinced they were at Esk Hause. They'd come up from Eskdale and must have traversed right around the mountain to get there (they hadn't summitted yet). The leader just wouldn't believe me when I told her where she really was. She just kept on saying "It's impossible! It's impossible!"
The most ungrateful bastards were the couple my son and I met at the summit when the clag came in, it got cold and then started to rain. They were both in shorts and the woman in the pair only had on a crop-top. She was starting to get cold so I lent her my fleece for the descent (I had a shell layer too). We were going on to Scafell so I asked her to drop it off at the campsite shop.
The cow never did, and it was nearly new!
One day on the way to Patterdale I met a carload of Asian chaps near to the Kirkstone Pass who asked me the way to Edinburgh! It'll be the M6 you are looking for I said.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=321000&Y=508500&A=Y&...
>The party we met where the Corridor Route split from the route down into Hollow Stones were convinced they were at Esk Hause. They'd come up from Eskdale and must have traversed right around the mountain to get there (they hadn't summitted yet). The leader just wouldn't believe me when I told her where she really was. She just kept on saying "It's impossible! It's impossible!"
Well they were so rubbish at reading maps they did not realise they had gone downhill to Sprinkling tarm, hard to miss then on to Styhead tarn, turned left and were on the side of a steep hill, not at a col.
That must rank as one of the worst bits of mountain navigation ever.
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=321000&Y=508500&A=Y&...
>The party we met where the Corridor Route split from the route down into Hollow Stones were convinced they were at Esk Hause. They'd come up from Eskdale and must have traversed right around the mountain to get there (they hadn't summitted yet). The leader just wouldn't believe me when I told her where she really was. She just kept on saying "It's impossible! It's impossible!"
Well they were so rubbish at reading maps they did not realise they had gone downhill to Sprinkling tarm, hard to miss then on to Styhead tarn, turned left and were on the side of a steep hill, not at a col.
That must rank as one of the worst bits of mountain navigation ever.
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