UKC

Hi fellow outdoors people!

Currently I am studying for a National Diploma in Outdoor Education; this has been great as i have had my eyes 'opened' to lots of different opportunities, and gained a wealth of knowledge about what NGB qualifications are out there etc etc.

My course will come to an end in April 2009, and i am not too sure what to do from here, i am positive that i want to become a guide in the mountains and move my way up the ranks to the elusive "Guide" qualification, but (in your opinion) what road should i take?

So far i have considered the following:

1) Get an apprenticeship in Scotland; allowing me to a. Live in the mountains and b. gain NGB's, contacts, and experience.

2) Head to University (in Scotland), and gain a Degree in Outdoor Leadership; i thought that if I had a degree in 'leading' it could come in handy if i wanted to move to Canada, or if i got injured (broken back etc) and needed to get a less active job, i could go into retail management at an outdoors store.

3) Get a full time 'normal' job for a few years, build up NGB's, buy masses of equipment and then go into a job with my ML (winter) or MIA.

I don't want to leave my thinking and get to the end of my course and get stuck in a rut and not know where to go etc.


I really appreciate your comments guys, I'm quite confused in what to do and just want to hear some peoples opinions, maybe there is a route No.4?

In reply to keithlackie:

Me personally and I've thought becoming a full time instructor also.

I've opted for gaining the NGB's and experience in my own time and did a a degree that was completely separate from the outdoor education/outdoor leadership sector. At the moment I'm working full time as a Surveyor and will gain the necessary NGB qualifications as and when time,cash and experience permit.

I think this is the best of both worlds for me as 1) I'm gaining valuable work experience incase the Outdoor pursuits instructor idea doesn't work. I have the degree and work experience to fall back on instead of just the degree and having to opt for a lower staring salary.

Anybody else have any comments?

In reply to keithlackie: just finished a degree in outdoor leadership, and I would say if you know that you want to go into the outdoors get in a center, start at the bottom and work your way up. NGB's are all that matter in the outdoors, a degree i wouldnt say is pointless but it is not as usefull as practical skills, ngbs and experience. Saying that i met some amazing new friends, got help in gettin ngbs and had a thoroughly great time, but id never studyed the outdoors before and if I had i would have probably just went to work at a center.

Si

In reply to sihills:

I got into it by volunteering to get my logbook hours and then asking where i had volunteered for work. That way they can get a look at you and you can get a look at them.

The degrees etc that are out there at the moment don't seem that well regarded in the industry. NGB's + experience seem to be key.

That said if you want to go to Uni and do a subject you enjoy crack on it can't do any harm.

The places that offer you live in while you gain your NGB's have to be looked at very carfeully. I checked a few out and the stories were not good. Abysmal pay, very long hours, not much actual logbook related stuff + failing on promised qual financing etc seem quite common.

Make sure that centre work is what you want. I know where i want my career to develop now but it's taken a year or so to figure it out.

Thanks for the advice so far guys! My vision is to get a job in a center in Scotland, this way i can get loads of mountain experience (both summer and winter), and then head to the Alps and guide there.

After that i would like to become some kind of tutor to an Outdoor Education course, as i feel i could do a better job than some that are out there now.

In reply to keithlackie: I am also working towards getting the guide award. You don't need any NGB awards to do it. My advice is get a job that allows you loads of time off to climb. Keep your over heads as low as possible and climb as much as you can. You need lots of Alpine routes (50 AD-TD), Scottish routes (70 III-V's), ski tours (20 days) and E1 multi-pitch rock climbs (about 50). These are approximate numbers and grades since I can't remember the syllabus off the top of my head. My advice is to go for it with the climbing big style as thats what guiding is all about. Get your log book really full (these are the minimum) and then get the guide award. I found that working as an instructor is not very well paid and it is difficult to fund trips. I also found thatwhen you've been teaching climbing all day to a bunch of kids the last thing you feel like doing is tying on. You don't need to live in Scotland to climb there either. I go up with a friend and we get 2-4 routes done in a weekend. Just drive up Friday and drive home sunday. Its tiring but very enjoyable, a great sense of achievement.
Also if you do get injured then you can always go back to uni later. If your injured then you'll probably get loads of grants to help you retrain anyway and I've learnt never to live for tomorrow, live for today as life is too short to worry about whats around the corner. Unfortunately I learnt this lesson later than I should. Anyway if you want to become a guide- go for it! Work for cash, climb and enjoy it. If you need a rock, ski, alpine or scottish partner give me a ring and we can log some routes together.

Cheers,

Matt

In reply to keithlackie: If you want to become a tutor in Outdoor Education, then a degree will be very relevant.

Are you after work as an Mountain Instructor, or as an Outdoor Education Instructor? If its the latter, then again, a degree (and even a post grad degree) would be highly valuable. Pay structures do incorporate this, however, if you're keen to head down the hard skills road of MIA/MIC, then a degree is perhaps slightly less relevant, although in order to remain in Scotland, to work towards these qualifications, you will probably end up working in some outdoor educational establishments.

Scotland is an awesome place to work in, however the weather and midge can be somewhat challenging at times! Its not too hard to mix it up with extended trips both personal and work abroad though. Certainly beats my former life as a quantity surveyor!

In reply to keithlackie: I think that you would find that being close to somewhere with very consistent and accessable climbing would be best so you can get your climbing skills up. To be a guide you need to be climbing E3 or better and log 50 multi pitch E1's. The peak/Sheffield would be a good option. Get a job that pays well and leaves you spare time. If you make the decision to become a guide you should focus on that and avoid the rest as its quite irrelevant to becoming a guide and instructing pays very badly. My first season in an outdoor centre paid £30 per week. You can't buy gear or pay for trips on that!! I then worked as a freelance instructor and was earning £100-£120 per day but the work was not overly consistent and you end up doing the same thing every day. The only benefit to working in a centre is that you can get NGB awards cheap or free, but as a guide you don't need them. Guiding and instructing are very different. You don't need to be able to instruct to be a guide. If you want to instruct do the MIA/MIC route and work in centres, if you want to be a guide, don't bother with centres, degrees, or NGB awards as they won't help you become a guide. The only thing you NEED to be a guide is lots of climbing and mountaineering experience. I went to the BMG guide open day at plas y brenin earlier this year that they run every 2-3 years and having spoken to the guides, listened to lectures and climbed with them, they just want a full log book with lots of personal experience, working with groups in centres carries no weight with them, its personal experience they are looking for. Make the decision about what you want. Do you want to work in a lecture theatre, a centre or the mountains. Then the decision is clear. If you decide to be a guide and set your heart on it just spend as much time as you can cragging, ice climbing and skiing. You have to live for it if you want to be a guide and working in a centre will just slow the process down not speed it up.

In reply to matt pigden:

Pre-requirements for IFMGA Mountain Guide are listed here http://www.bmg.org.uk/training.html

Just slightly out of my league :O

In reply to Neil Kazimierz Sheridan: Yes you need to be a strong and experienced climber not an instructor. Better spending your time and money funding time in the mountains both scotland and alps. You need to be really focussed on your climbing and you need a lot of cash to fund it. Basically easier if you start young and stay focussed. You just don't have enough time to do much else if you want to be that good. You have to be an excellent climber and mountaineer and if you have relationships, jobs, kids, overheads distracting you from climbing then it wont happen. Its a lifestyle choice - you have to live it and there isn't an easy route to it.

In reply to matt pigden:

I beleive there's exemptions from some of the elements of the Guides training scheme if you already hold the MIA/MIC

In reply to matt pigden:

I think you need to have appropriate interpersonls skills too - it's not all about 'the climbing'. There has been cases of extremely good climbers with more than enough experience at the required standard not being accepted onto the Guides training scheme because their temperant was not acceptable.

In reply to keithlackie: I think it's worth adding one thing to what's been said, namely, do you like working with people? The soft skills and aptitude necessary to work with clients are an important aspect of any instructor's (or guide's) life - I've met instructors and guides who are totally at ease with clients and others who are less so... because it does affect the way that they do their work and their job satisfaction.

Thank you Matt for explaining clearly the skills and pre-requisites necessary to progress successfully through to IFMGFA status. Best wishes for your successful completion (5 years?!).

In reply to matt pigden:

for becoming a guide, don't forgett to mention the skiing!

bump