UKC

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Hmmm, so not only does he climb an E12 7a, but he does so with the odd rain shower passing through!

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Congratulations to James on his latest and greatest achievement!

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Nice report. Awesome sounding route.


It seems to have been quite a week for hard climbing: Possible flash of Brad Pit and The Joker in a day, repeat of Memento in 2 hrs, Ty Landman and Paul Robinson beasting it in Switzerland, Dave and Malc's 8b+'s and James' E12..........

In reply to TRNovice: Dyers Lookout looks like an amazing slab, and this route looks great.

Congratulations to James on a stunning FA. Looking forward to getting more details.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: congratulations to james

shame Simmonite is at it again with his thinly veiled swipes, takes something away from James achievement

Its because of shit stirring 'journalists' like Simmonite that Dave Macleod has so far refused to grade Echo Wall

In reply to Erik B:

NOTHING can take away James achievement

Sam

In reply to Orange House Climbing: your right, but you know what I mean

In reply to Erik B:

What the hell are you on about? Is it the comment Dave made about the equally stunning grade? If so your reading ton much into it.

In reply to duncan: Quite an awesome bit of rock. Like you say - good on the man taking out the rotting pegs and doing it as purely as possible!

In reply to Adam Lincoln: I think he's referring to this quote in the climb magazine write-up:


Jack's write up is much better balanced I'd say.

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

I was on about the line i mentioned above, and the one you thought it might be referring to is even less of a swipe....

Who cares and effort James!

In reply to Anonymous: there is history with this journalist and his attitude to Dave Macleod, he was one of the worst for giving Dave a pasting for grading Rhapsody E11, no such pasting for James of course - hardly a surprise seeing as he was there getting the photos

theres some bold statements in his article

the climbing scene in the UK is an embarrasment at times, but at least the people who matter in the scene are the ones putting their neck on the line at the limit of the sport, not the tw*ts writing about it in the mags

so again, well done James Pearson

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

So, is it a boulder problem like that one he climbs in Commited - The Promise?

In reply to Adam Lincoln:
Good job James, superb effort and a stunning piece of rock.

Hardest trad climb? you may have to arm wrestle Mr Mcleod for that one

As for climb, vote with your feet, stopped buying it after Daves hastily re-written swipe whilst visiting rhapsody earlier in the year.

In reply to Erik B:

I may have misread your initial post but you might want to re-read it. You are implying Simmo did make a jibe at James.

In reply to Nellie: I bought it for the first time ni ages on Saturday as I was a bit bored.

The mag did little to lift the boredom.


I'll not be buying it again.

In reply to spa_bob:

I assume you haven't seen the photos then?

So 'the promise' being a boulder problem, you will be going for the second ascent then, ground up?

In reply to Adam Lincoln: in my initial post i wasnt implying that 'simmo' was making a thinly veiled jibe at James

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Don't rise to them Adam.

This is an amazing achievement.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: What an awesome lump of rock!

In reply to Erik B:

So what was this meant to mean then?

"shame Simmonite is at it again with his thinly veiled swipes, takes something away from James achievement"

In reply to seagull: I`m loving this whole " the Ingurlish bloke is better than the Jockanese- no he isn`t " dingdong.

It`s like Braveheart.

But even crapper.

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

There's a bit of history with Erik having a go at Dave Simmonite for apparently having a bit of swipe at Dave MacLeod. If you know the history, it's fairly clear that Erik is again suggesting that Dave S has a bit of a down on Dave MacLeod. I certainly didn't take it it read that anyone was having a swipe at James.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Any amazing achievement.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Poor old Sonnie Trotter. He'll have to get his a** back here again soon. Still, at least it's cream teas not Irn Bru...

Nice one James.

Y

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Well, I was thinking I might go for a boulder about, maybe put in a bit of gear, then come down for a cup of tea and a peice of chocolate with my girlfreind, maybe go to Ikea, then boulder all the way to the top.

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

I mis-read Erik's initial post the same way that you did, but I can see what he's getting at.

Simmonite's report states "The route ... is without peers in terms of commitment, difficulty and danger."

The is clearly bollocks when you compare it to Echo Wall. There's no way of telling which route is harder, more committing or more dangerous as neither climber has been on the other route, but it's pretty obvious they're roughly comparable given what's been written in James' and Dave's blogs, so to pretend that they're not is bad journalism at best, and shit-stirring at worst.

All this should not take anything away from James's hugely impressive lead, but more factual reporting would help.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Bloody hell - that sneaked in under the radar ! how much time and work went into this route ? amazing.

In reply to Anonymous: No, I think he's got the 'Dave Simmonite quick to have a pop at Mcleod 'overgrading' but accepting E12 7a without any bother' vibe going.

I'm not saying it isnt by the way.

In reply to Stuart S:

Come on Stuart..... we have magzines/websites to sell and more importantly advertising.

What is wrong with a little hyperbole, it makes life interesting.

Mick

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Good effort james. Devon is the place to be. Im glad that there is some recognised superhard stuff being put up south of the Grit. Leagues ahead of anything else in devon E8/9? was the hardest i beleve. looks like a wicked piece of rock too.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Is this at all related to my (mildy inaccurate) ramblings on http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=322839 Mick?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Very impressive, but whats he done on Grit?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
When will we get to see the video? Is there one?

In reply to james oswald: Committed 2

In reply to freemanTom:

I think he bimbled his way up something or the other at Cratclife

Jeez! Fantastic going!

Very impressive, but whats he done on Grit?

Hmmmm. This question seems to be haunting me. It pops up all over the place. But hasn't james pearson done 3 E10's on grit? I always thought that grit was the place to be for hard shit but obviously its devon so i beg the question

What have you done in devon?

Prehaps james is keeping with the local ethic of sand bagging and it actully harder?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Sounds like an Indian Face for the 21st century.

Applaud the ascent but particularly the ethic; a message perhaps for those who want to replace shonky fixed gear on much easier grit routes?

In reply to Stuart S&Nellie: indeed, you are both seeing where i am coming from

I have a bit of a thing with bad journalists who have axes to grind and agendas to feed, its a shame even climbing is polluted with them

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: your reporting is fine Mick, I wouldnt have bothered reading that drivel on the mag link if it wasnt for you cherry picking from simmonites article

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Good effort but probably would get more repeats, and be a better route for it, with a few bolts in it...

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
If James' website is up to date then his best sport redpoint is F8b+. Has he/will he comment on the equivalent sport grade for the route? From what I've heard of his impressive acheivements in the climbing media I have no doubt he is well placed to grade the 7a bit, but where does the E12 bit come from? Is 7a 15m above pointy rocks E12? Without 'wishing to take anything away from James' acheivements', how can anyone claim the hardest trad line in the world without first having at least tried the other contenders. Echo Wall is F8c/8c+ with ground-fall potential from the second crux. Are those James' words, or is this hype from Climb?

In reply to SARS:

Genius!!!

In reply to Ben Darvill:

RTFT, it's hype. I've said before I reckon he's done his hardest sport grade on a trad route, which is quite cool, but for bouldery stuff this is less relevant.

Echo Wall is also absolutely stunning to look at, and is absolutely manifestly, not a slab.

In reply to Ben Darvill:

I guess at any grade there are routes thar are and are not for you. Strengths and weaknesses and being motivated to want to do a line are all factors.

"but where does the E12 bit come from? Is 7a 15m above pointy rocks E12? "
- Have you considered that it may be sustained, tenuous, 7a or thereabouts with the bad fall potential ? After the 7a section it finishes up a route give E8 6b in a purer trad ethic than it was graded for.

Who would be better placed to grade it?

In reply to Ben Darvill:

It comes from the bloke who's climbed it. He knows what it takes, and he's the only one who knows.

In reply to neilinut: Sure - I agree with all that. The bits that grated were "The rest is history and hardest traditional climb in the world has just been climbed"
"The Walk of Life.... is without peers in terms of commitment, difficulty and danger"

Which if I've understood correctly aren't James words. A shame that were talking about cr#p journalism rather than the impressive ascent itself.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Just a crazy sounding route! Bl**dy well done Mr Pearson.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Stunning line and effort, a real step up for him and trad climbing as a whole.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

what about the Indian Face that must surly be E13 by the lack of attention then ?

go do it and compare the two eh ?

In reply to Ben Darvill:

There's an option on the Climb website (under Contact Us) to send them feedback (they say they welcome any feedback...) so maybe a note suggesting they sort out their hyperbole would be worthwhile?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Both this and the Echo Wall routes are undoubtably at the very edge of what is currently possible on trad gear and stunning achievements by both climbers. Just a couple of questions -

1) On what is JP basing E12? AKAIK he hasn't climbed E11, but I could be wrong.
2) What sport grade would TWOL be? I'm guessing 8c/8c+ on very marginal gear, but again could be wrong.
3) Did the removal of pegs on Ian's E8 produce either new placements for gear or new hand holds which would change the grade of this?

These aren't questioning either James's ability or the grade, just some thing's that may need clearing up to stop mud being slung.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell: its a shame simmonite also knocked the quality of Rhapsody, after all it was just a variation and eliminate according to him, can anyone confirm the nature of this 'without peers' route in Devon? is it a direct start to another route? or wholly independant and therefore worthy of the mighty simmonites praise?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Is this not the most blatant grade inflation bollox because the fellow has to please his sponsors. I really do think top end trad grades are getting out of hand

In reply to Grimpeur ancien:

Why ? what is inherently wrong with giving E12 in an open ended grading system ?

In reply to GrahamD: because this should be for the onsight. Headpointing and pre-practise in general has distorted the grading system

In reply to steveej:

I still don't see why there is a problem. The proposals (and they are proposals) are based on the premise that an E12 is harder than an E11 is harder than an E10 is harder than an E9. Surely you can't be suggesting that James' new route is proposed as E8 along with anything else as yet onsighted ?

In reply to GrahamD:

.....as yet NOT onsighted

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Isn't the grade almost academic, anyway?

No-one has climbed E9, yet (as far as I'm aware) because it's an onsight grade.

I know James has done Equilibrium, and I've seen the video - thus blowing my chance of an onsight, ha ha! - and I don't mean any disrespect to James, whom I've seen practicing a 7a at Froggat

But some climbs are graded as Headpoint climbs - ie there in no chance that anyone could possibly do them without pre-practice on top-rope, in the eyes of the person doing the first ascent.


NB I've no doubt whatsoever this is a completely nails route at UK 7a, with - presumably almost no gear

But I know that people have tried E9


I wonder if Dave MacCleod's Rhapsody will ever be climbed at E11, because of the video - which denies the onsight.

In reply to Dominion:

For Christ's sake stop bickering like a bunch of of school kids.....

Jeeeez .... E 9, 10, 11, 12 ... is beyond 99.99% of UK climbers anyway

Good effort James and well done....

In reply to Grinning Donkey:

I'm not saying that it isn't a hard climb, I'm saying that calling it E12 is a - possible - nonsense, because E9 hasn't been onsighted yet...

In reply to Dominion:

E9 is a nonsense as well (for the same reason), but H12 doesn't have that certain je ne sais quoi to it does it?

In reply to TRNovice:

Exactly.

At the moment, above E8, the grading of climbs for an onsight seems to be broken.

I'm not in any way suggesting that climbs at that grade and above aren't extremely hard, and fake.

But that the grading system does not cope with them.

In reply to Dominion: Yeah that's your opinion and that's fine, but is this thread really the most appropriate place to voice it?There have been numerous threads on this topic so why not resurrect one of them?Again, well done james and I look forward to seeing more pics and footage on commited 2.

In reply to all:

Graded for the media hype in my opinion. meaningless to almost everyone else.

Looks bloody hard though, so good effort James.

In reply to john howard 1:


Just to make it perfectly clear, well done James for a damn hard climb!


>There have been numerous threads on this topic so why not resurrect one of them?

Archived, and not able to post on them?

My point is more that the "onsight" grade given to really, really, really, really hard climbs does seem to be broken.

Parthian Shot, E9 6c, 1989 - not onsighted, although people have tried and gone damn close, and proven that the gear is good...

But not climbed at E9, because E9 is an onsight grade.

Equilibrium, E10 7a, and James Pearson did the 3rd - I think - ascent. But not E10, because not onsight.

I'm not dissing the climbing, I'm asking what is the point of giving an onsight grade of E12, when E9 hasn't been done, 19 years afterwards?

Yes, I know, Parthian Shot very probably wasn't the first E9, but it's the one I could find in a guidebook I had very easily, right next to Equilibrium (2000)
.

NB just to make it very clear, well done James on a well hard climb.

It's the terminology of the grade that I'm argueing with, not your achievement.

In reply to john howard 1:

I would freely offer the following thread as an approproate place to voice such opinions: -

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=322839

In reply to Dominion:
Do you really give a f*ck though? Everyone knows that E grades aren't ideal for grading hard headpoints, but does it really matter? The limitations are well understood, and in this case the style of the FA ascent has been clearly stated, so people can appreciate how these limitations may apply in this case.

In reply to Dominion:
I thought everyone went on about this after the "are the E grades broken" thread. Must people continue to go on?

In reply to Dominion: What non-existant grading system would you have him use then?

This route looks awesome. Very much in a similar vein to Indian Face (slabby(-ish), snappy). Can it really be 3 grades harder? Wow.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Well, as I now have the world's hardest trad climb (or one of the hardest two) on my doorstep, and I moderate the crag, I thought it would be good to put it on the database. Only one problem, our supposedly open ended grading system doesn't seem to go above E11 on UKC, oh dear, get it sorted lads...

In reply to Mark Kemball:

A a fellow crag moderator, can I just say that that's hilarious .

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Stuart and Erik have it spot on. There's a fine line between promotional hyperbole and biased, subjective reporting. I think you do the first and from what I can tell, DS appears to do the second. (Has Dave Mac spilt his pint without noticing?) As for hyperbole making life interesting, well, only if you get off on getting people to argue in a a manner that will doubtless bemuse JP, DMcL, SMcL, DB etc.

Anyway, Chapeau to JP, another awesome addition to the very top of the trad rock climbing league.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Congratulations on the effort. I have to say as with a lot of other posters I am not to impressed with the write up on the climb website. Having been up to echo wall with dave macleod I can safely say the line is awesome and very impressive indeed, but thats beside the point and another debate all together. I just like to see factual and accurate write ups.

I look forward to hearing what other climbers say about it once they have had a bash at it.

In reply to Oli:


Makes E grades above a certain point seem meaningless. Does what applies to the top end, then filter down?

eg. "It's E1, but I headpointed it...

But - woohoo - I've done an E1, in the same style as top climbers do an E10..."

People go on an on about how a certain climb isn't - for example - an HVS. Or is easy for a HVS. Because they've climbed it 30 times, and know every move on it, and which bits of gear to use at which place, and where every hand and foothold is. For them, damn right it isn't an HVS, because HVS is an onsight grade, and they still seem to forget that.


NB Yes, perhaps this isn't the best thread to discuss this.

As I've said, no disrespect to James Pearson.

H12, 7a ?

In reply to Dominion:
Honestly why do you really care that top climbers grade there route E12 and not H12?

In reply to james oswald:

FFS. An E grade is an onsight grade, and no-one has onsighted E9 yet! So E9, E10, E11 and E12 are all imaginary estimates...

Given by very talented climbers, but still just estimates.

Some climbers have have given their hard climbs H grades, because they don't believe anyone will be able to do them eith pre-practice. So a trad onsight grade is not appropriate.

Wish I hadn't started this now, it's like trying to explain something very simple to someone who totally fails to grasp the basics...

In reply to Dominion:

A bit like this you mean ?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=322530

In reply to Dominion:
I understand it i just think it's pretty pathetic that you keep bringing it up when we all know what they are saying when we talk about E10.

In reply to Dominion:

So what? Most people understand this is a limitation and accept it/adjust accordingly. Is it really that much of an issue?

In reply to Dominion:

Smile chuck, we know what you mean, but will it ever be taken and used by the masses?

All I know is that it was a very special day yesterday and I am glad James finished when he did or Rich would have become very very wet!

Sam Orange

In reply to Dominion:

This is really a matter of opinion. In the late 1970s and early 1980s, when the E grades were really becoming the accepted grading system, there was all sorts of what some might consider dubious tactics going on. Yo-yoing (Strawberries for eg) practicing, abseil inspection, heavy duty creative cleaning (Downhill Racer and others), the phrase "Headpointing" was just starting to be used, and of course, a lot of people went in for ground up, on sight. Once a route was lead (by whatever method) an E grade was given. Where's the problem? Who decreed the change? (Yes, I know it's become the accepted wisdom that a route is graded for a theoretical on sight but why? In reallity routes have been given E grades prior to an on sight since the system began.)

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Beautiful climb. Well done, and thank you.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

Hi Mark - that's an amazing feature - had a look at the logbook - does Earth Rim Roamer 2 go up the arete?

In reply to pissy whiners:

us lot of punters criticising the grading of balls to the wall test pieces is like the pope pontificating on use of contraception - if you don't play the game you don't get to make the sodding rules

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Normally big numbers dont impress or inspire me but this lad always comes across as a nice bloke and a pure cragger. Well done James.

In reply to neilinut:

Very good post. How can a E1 leader comment on something like this

In reply to Simon Lee:

It sneaks off right near the top and finishes up some "interesting" ground behind the arete.

In reply to james oswald:


I only keep bringing it up because people keep on at me to defend the stance I took earlier. Stop asking that, and I won't mention it again, honest!

In reply to pigeonjim:


Very easily. Unless you are suggesting that they shouldn't be allowed to make a comment on it.

In reply to pigeonjim:

I've played football in the pub league in Rossendale. Therefore I'm not allowed to comment on last night's Champions League game.

The Ent

In reply to Enty: Indeed what does Alex Ferguson CBE think he's doing with all that football stuff, shouldn't he have a free bus and some pigeons?

In reply to Erik B:

I believe that observations made about Rhapsody where the result of an initial trip with McClure, Dunne and Pearsons and based on their opinions prior to McClures ascent, following which the news report was changed.

Surely without journalist input thes ascents would not be so well reported and obviously are based upon information and opinions available at the time.

In reply to Scuffer:

Journalists have a responsibility to report fairly. In this particular case, I think the issue is that Dave Simmonite described James Pearson's new route as "the World’s Hardest Traditional Route" and "without peers in terms of commitment, difficulty and danger." This may indeed be the case, but it's not absolute, particularly in view of the fact that Dave MacLeod has described his new route on Echo Wall as harder than anything else he's ever done (including Rhapsody, previous contender for one of the hardest trad routes). To the best of my knowledge, neither James nor, more importantly in the context of his reporting, Dave Simmonite, have inspected Echo Wall to judge its commitment, difficulty or danger.

Simmonite's lack of reference to Echo Wall has to cast doubt on the quality of his report. It's a shame that his sloppiness has appeared to detract from the quality from James's climbing. There's a good description on the HotAches blog: http://hotaches.blogspot.com/

In reply to Dominion:

Of course they are estimates. We all know what they mean though. E12 is harder than E11 is harder than... so it is still valid as a relative scale. Good on James for sticking a number on his climb and giving us punters something to bicker about.

In reply to Dominion:

Perhaps in these higher graded routes that haven't been onsighted* the higher the E numebr, the more sustained the nature of the route, that is its a long crux/gear is hard to place/etc.?

As has been pointed outabove when the E grade was starting to be widely used there was no clear cut definition that it was for onsight ascents.

I'd imagine that those talented enough to try these climbs gain useful information from the first ascentionists grade, and can use that information to decide whether they are likely to get up the line on-sight.



* Perhaps try some of these routes in the style you hold so sacred (and I do too) and release the bee in your bonnet.

E12 eh... well that'll be why I couldn't do it when I tried last summer!! Good effort!

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: The standards just keep rasing...

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Clearly this has been an intense and awesome experiance for James resulting in a world class route. Well done!

David S should stick to taking pictures and the editor (if they actually have editorial control on the website) should be embarrased.

Echo Wall, Cobra Crack, Rhapsody, the E10 on Hells Lum are in the same league. Dave comment was I think "harder than anything I've been on"

I think the reality is the routes are very different and play to the strenghs of the protaginists. A relative assesment is needed and I suspect won't happen because I reckon both climbers would struggle to climb the others routes...

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Looks like a fantastic line.

I take no issue with the grade, which we all know is an estimate based on James's opinion and could be revised if it ever gets further ascents.

Any grade is going to be an estimate at this level, and I don't see a problem with that: the "imagined on-sight grade" is going to be as accurate as anything.

In reply to David Simmonite:
Well fair play for sticking your head above the parapet - but it will take more than shutting the proverbial stable door to wash this egg off... You've created a reputation for yourself which will live longer in my mind than the photos, however good they might be.

Hi Everyone
It seems a few feathers have been unintentionally ruffled.

Yes it was a bit sloppy and should have read (and now does);

'is possibly without peers for a route of this type in terms of commitment, difficulty and danger.'

In the heat of the moment mistakes happen. I was keen to get the news out on what is an amazing route and great piece of climbing, and inadvertantly published the wrong draft.

Apologies to everyone.

The pics are good though!

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Wahay to James and Wahay to the Culm.

England's hardest route in North Devon, who'd of thought it?

Fantastic!

In reply to Erik B:

>its a shame simmonite also knocked the quality of Rhapsody, after all it was just a variation and eliminate according to him,

To be fair, didn't Dave M call it 'a nice wee eliminate for locals' or something similar, no doubt rather tongue in cheek!

jcm

In reply to Ben Darvill:
Hi Ben
I'm sorry you feel that way but I hope you will like the pics when they are published.

David

In reply to Dominion:

>Wish I hadn't started this now, it's like trying to explain something very simple to someone who totally fails to grasp the basics...

I'm sure we all wish that. As you rightly say it's very simple and everyone understands it, so goodness only knows what you had in mind by bringing it up again.

jcm

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Photos taken a couple of weeks ago, was hoping to catch James on the route. An amazing piece of rock, 180 feet of blankness. Well done James !
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/belladonna68/P1010029.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/belladonna68/P1010009-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/belladonna68/P1010008-1.jpg

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Actually John, my comments were based on the opinions of the 3 climbers I went with to Dumbarton, including their initial reactions to the grade.

Steve Mac subsequently wrote, "Originally I assumed it may be E10, going straight for the lead after just a few hours looking at the route, taking a massive whipper and barely feeling a thing. The fall was safe."
He did however change his opinion after repeating the route.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

Nice. Put it in as a sport route at 8c+ then .

In reply to David Simmonite:

Hello lovely! fancy seeing you on here!

Bugger that you uploaded the wrong words but I do know how knackered we all were and Rich and I had not been camping out for 5 days like you guys.

It was such an emotional thing to watch, I wish I had had a camera to hide behind as somehow it doesn´t look so bad does it?

Don´t worry too much about what people put on here, its easy for them to hide behind the PC and have a go at ¨the media´ which you are.

Sam Orange :0)

In reply to David Simmonite:

Interesting - did he actually say it was E11 in his opinion (I probably missed it). And what about Sonny Trotter?

In reply to michel4388:

Maybe Steve and Sonny should answer that question, you dont want any chinese whisper issues!

Sam

In reply to David Simmonite: maybe its about time you re assessed and put to bed your 'problem' with Dave Macleod, then you might regain some respect in your climbing journalistic career

In reply to Erik B:

Erik, if you have the chance to speak to Dave please do so, he does not have a problem with Dave Macleod, unless thats what you want?

Are you a mate of Dave Mac?

Sam

In reply to Tufas Mum:

Yes, can we get off the Rhapsody saga. If you want to read Steve's coments go here: http://www.climbmagazine.com/SteMacRhapsodyComments.aspx

I'm just sorting the pics for James' route and I must say my palms are sweating just looking at them.

In reply to Erik B:
Erik, I do not have any problem with Dave M.

If you wish to speak to me personaly about it I will email you my phone number and you will soon see that I hold Dave M in high regard.

David

In reply to Tufas Mum:
Don´t worry too much about what people put on here, its easy for them to hide behind the PC and have a go at ¨the media´ which you are

What!!

And as the media journalists have a responsibility to report fairly, this is not the first time this year dave has had to hastily re-write a report.

I would also happily discuss in person


The photo's are superb by the way, an amazing piece of rock

In reply to michel4388:

Yes. http://hotaches.blogspot.com/2008/06/rhapsody-e11-mcclure-speaks-about-grad...


Sonny has admitted he doesn't understand the British grading system and as such is not in a position to make a comment on the E number.

In reply to Nellie:

I agree but at the end of the day Dave is still a real person and does not deserve the abuse chucked at him further up the thread.

Erik has been quite personal which is something that maybe only happens on the internet, in the pub over a beer might not be the same tone, words used etc.

Sam

E 12 Wow,

Good effort James can we cut the bickering and get some details.

Has it got a death run out ?.
Any gear ?
What french grade ?
Whats the climbing like?

In reply to David Simmonite:

Shall I upload the one of me holding you by the arse over the cliff top?

Sam :0)

In reply to J Dunne:

a, b and d are largely answered on James P's blog which was linked higher up th thread. I think the jury's still out on c.

jcm

In reply to J Dunne:

There's a good description here...

http://hotaches.blogspot.com/

In reply to alasdair19:

Indeed. There's also Sonny's other mega route which I can't remember the name of (The Path?), didn't he think it was harder than Cobra Crack?And when these routes are being discussed everyone seems to forget about Beth Roddens Meltdown, another contender for the title.

In reply to Queequeg:

I keep re reading Daves word on the Hot Aches blog, still makes me feel sick!

I don´t think we knew at the time that we would be watching something so amazing!

Sam

In reply to Tufas Mum:


I'll have to pick you up on that Sam.

The media, that includes UKC, and Dave Simmonite, NEED a good going at.

This is a big claim, E12.... quite rightly questions will be asked, and everyone has the opportunity to do so.

Hopefully, James, will provide some answers.

In reply to Nellie:
Email me your number then (via my user name thing) and I'm more than happy to a chat with you.

And it wasn't a hasty re-write - it was a genuin mistake as both files were next to each other in the folder. Do you think I wanted to have to go through all of this again?

Cheers

Dave

In reply to David Simmonite:

While you're here Dave (and full marks to you for responding to your critics like this), would you care to give your opinion on Echo Wall and comparisons between Echo Wall and James's new route?

In reply to aln: Meltdown is Fr8c+ and safe. And probably obny 8a with small girly fingers {kidding }


Dave's route is Fr9a Death and James is Fr(Unkown but presumably hard) with 12m groundfall guranteed and only bad gear protecting the upper half.

Different league I'd say.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Mick
Maybe you're right but it does get personal sometimes.

I'm not the person who grades the routes and I know that it's a big grade and yes I'm sure that James will provide all of the answers on his blog in due course.

Dave

In reply to Anonymous:

Simply awesome!

In reply to Queequeg: Great read but what is the french grade ie Rhapsody 8c/+?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I know Mick I have already agreed, but its when it gets personal that its not right.

Sam

In reply to J Dunne: i'd be keen to know too, however not sure James is in a position to accurately give it a French sport grade equivalent

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Very very true. Perhaps one of the most truthful things written on this thread. This is a big, big claim. We all have a right to question it without it being taken personally.

In reply to J Dunne: hard 8c / soft 8c+ - according to Ste mac

In reply to tony:

Hands up anybody who'd like to take over 40 50ft falls onto the same nut? You'd think his sponsors would've let him have a spare or 2!

From the UKC page for the crag:

Crag features

Possibly not going to be there long, so climb it while you can. It may be a good idea to take some pegs with you. And maybe a hammer. Don't bang too hard though.

An observation from the Rockfax grade conversion table:

E9 7a is already classified as bold, and E12 7a is three grades up, with the same technical grade.

Similarly VS 4a is classified as bold, and three grades up with the same technical grade would give E2 4a. Is there such a climb?

In reply to Liam Copley: I was talking about the Devon route

In reply to michel4388:

FFS! So you think climbs should only be graded in accordance with the Rockfax grade table? Since when did that become law?

In reply to tony:

I'd read that, but I do not regard this as an unambigious "yes"...

In reply to Misha: Its only Earth Rim Roamer II that is threatened by imminent collapse you can see daylight through the crack for almost the length of it

In reply to michel4388:

Not quite sure what's unambiguous about "What I will say is that Dave did not overgrade the route."

In reply to Tyler:

Just trying to make sense of what "E12 7a" means, by trying to relate it to grades I bimble up...

In reply to Tufas Mum:

Of course it is personal.

The route was climbed by a person. It will unavoidably be personal.

Similarly, if Dave writes something, he is accountable for it.

This isn't a magazine where you can make claims and not be questioned.

Welcome to the real world.

In reply to tony:

... "Not from what he experienced".

I think this comment makes it a bit ambigious. What about Steve's own experience. Why is this sentence needed in the first place??

In reply to michel4388:


You can't, they are worlds apart.

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

Where has the 9A suddenly sprung from for Echo Wall?

In reply to David Simmonite:

Hi Dave,

You can take it. If Jack and myself can take it on the nose by sticking our necks out I'm sure you can....and have done, and will continue to do so.


But you are the person writing words about this ascent and taking and selling photographs of it.

By the way... James is sponsored by the North Face, you take pics for the North Face.

This kind of information you should disclose to all. There is a conflict of interest there if you are writing editorial.

Anyway, I hope you get top dollar for the pics, you photographers deserve it.

Back to business Cia.

Mick

In reply to michel4388:

Because Steve didn't fall from the final moves, as Dave did - Steve mentions that there was a lot more hard climbing from where he fell, and that falling from the top would be a different proposition.

IIRC Dave needed his belayer higher up and anchored in to prevent him hitting the ledges from the final jugs, which resulted in much harder and neckier falls.

In reply to J Dunne: sorry dude

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

But it shouldnt get personal it should stay professional, I think that is the difference that the internet has made to the world. It so quick and easy to type something that you dont sit back and reflect.

Maybe when it was just pen and paper people had the time to re word things and not be so personal.

Maybe that just me though.

And do I really have to join the real world? :0)

In reply to Tyler:

Obviously, but does the difference between the grades become smaller for the higher grades?

In reply to craig d: i think dave or somebody mentioned it was 8c+/9a .. that may be were the 9a has come from

In reply to michel4388: why would this be?? im assuming ti doesn't

In reply to Liam Copley:

So it should read 8C+/9A death

This place is bloody depressing sometimes. Any hard new route ends up with the most predictable threads ever.

Blah blah E9 does not exist yet.
Wah wah Dave McLeod is better.
Wah wah no he's not.
Blah blah I only climb E1 but I think I can say it's not an E Whatever.

Just congratulate James on an amazing ascent and quit the armchair whining.

In reply to Kid Spatula:


Agreed, Dave and James are very talented climbers as are many. Well done all.

In reply to craig d: Woops, I'm sure I read that a hile back but what he said was he'd need 9a fitness.

My bad.

In reply to craig d: if thats what you want to call it i think somebody needs to inspect some of the E10's, rhapsody, and the devon route and see if they are all correct. is that not the best way?

In reply to Liam Copley: just to keep everybody happy, although im fine.

In reply to Kid Spatula:
>>Blah blah I only climb E1 but I think I can say it's not an E Whatever<< ( i agree).

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Hi Mick, I also takes pics for many other manufacturers, so I guess that there could be a conflict of interest with most new things that I photograph and report.

Don't you ever have a conflict of interest with those who wish to advertise on this site?

Anyway I'm going to get on with work and leave everyone to their opinions.

Cheers

Dave

In reply to michel4388:

You probably won't be able to. I think that brit tech grades are far more broken than the E grades. In tech grades they are clearly defined at the lower grades to about 6a or so but then just seem to go weird and cover massive ranges. I mean - how come we have 4a,4b and 4c that cover tiny grade differences that few people can really tell the difference between yet 6b can be easy or desperate?
A sport grade would give a much better idea of the difficulty, or even a bouldering grade for the crux(es?) and would help even us mortals relate to the difficulty.

In reply to David Simmonite:

Correct Dave.

New grades and those who climb them have become a commodity, whether it be E10, E11, and E12.

They have value, are traded and leveraged.

Thank goodness we now have forums like this to keep it real where people can ask questions rather than just being spoon fed by the old media.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: clearly no down turn in the grading markets

In reply to Monk:
or even a bouldering grade for the crux(es?)
that sounds like a good idea

In reply to J Dunne: LOL! Very good.

In reply to Monk:

you jest, surely..

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: He's a legend.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:



Since when has cyber space been the real world ? unless we are in the matrix, of course !

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Not that i'll ever get anywhere near these grades, but the way it appears to be going the numbers are going to go up and up and up

whilst in reality the step from E11 to E12 is maybe the matter of a tolerance of a few mm's more in; range of movement / less positive holds, so there's nothing really in it; but to the top end climbers making these moves, the perception of this feels way out there like a quantum leap forwards, hence the new grade.

Whatever way we justify it they really are the real deal bona fide rock stars!

Nice one James!_!

In reply to lummox:

Well... maybe a little. But they are a much smaller grade band than even 5c is. Certainly the difference between 6a and 6c is almost infinitely larger than the difference between 4a and 4c. Show me someone who can climb a 4a move as their 'limit' and I reckon you could get them to climb a 4c move the same day.

In reply to Tufas Mum: If anything the language I have used has been toned down compared to how I would speak in the pub after 20 stella

Dave Simmonite - I deliberately wrote 'problem', you know what Im talking about, it all goes back a bit and I suspect stems from Dave Mac's repeats of your favourite photography subject's routes - as Mick has said the old media has got a battle on its hands due to the power of the new media and the fact people can rip your work to shreds, a good thing though as blatantly biased writing can be exposed and analysed to death.

In reply to Erik B:

Sweet christ man! Leave it!

It's like a frickin' echo.

In reply to GrahamD:

This the real world Graham...just another form of communicating....internet, magazines, mobile phones, tv, etc etc

In reply to Erik B:
I guess you mean John Dunnes' routes and Dave downgrading them - well, this is neither the time or the place and I will not be drawn on this on here.

Cripes a thread about something else and John's routes still come up.

Like I said I'm happy to talk to you about this at any time, by email or phone, your choice? And then we can get this sorted once and for all.

Dave

In reply to David Simmonite: I think your reply says it all, so I think this is now sorted once and for all

In reply to Erik B: So you don't fancy talking to Dave then?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

James is a ground breaking climber. Look at his achievements, look at how he climbs, look where he is in those pictures! In my eye's this IS an amazing piece of climbing, whatever the grade ends up to be, it's clearly grossly serious.

Of all the 'big' ascents over the past few years, this one seems to stand out to me more than many of the others. It's a slab/wall to start off with, that means, to me, that it's a lot more than how hard you can pull and how hard you've trained. The fact it hasn't been 'sport graded' suggests a lot too, it's a trad route after all.

An outstanding achievement.

In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:

Don't be silly, he is using the power of the internet to mouth off....

In reply to andi turner:

It's also worth considering the fact that an insecure F8a+ is going to be a lot more serious and hence loftier graded, than a secure F8c+ on poor trad gear or no gear (if you can only process grades by their french equivalents).

So, simply because one route is 8c+ and 'death' and another is, say, 8b and 'death' doesn't correlate directly to the latter being easier, in the traditional sense, than the former.

Remember that Indian Face is still considered somewhere in the region F7c, has not yet been on-sighted and has also made a fair few of our top climbers think better than to attempt it. If it's all about 'on-sights' then I can see Rhapsody being on-sighted before something like Indian Face.

In reply to David Simmonite:


Except now, it seems.

This is a public forum, I'm sure many people would like to hear you clarify your position with regards to these climbs and what you've said about them.

I'm sure you can appreciate that your answer seems evasive at best given that it appears on a web site specifically dedicated to discussing exactly what you're refusing to.

In reply to Adam Lincoln: they like to hide behind screens.

sad how dave reporting the hardest trad route can turn into this.
f*ck 'em dave,just a bunch of arse holes.

bloody good effort james.come along way since i belayed you up traveller in time and you wobbled all the up.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Well done James Pearson. Another awesome show from this climber.
Poor show Dave Simmonite. Pull your socks up man.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Mick, if this thread is a shining example of your new world media or whatever you wanted to call it then heaven help us!

Got to say the grade of this route is the least interesting thing about the climb. Knowing this incredible piece of rock Im massively impressed by James's strength of mind to keep coming back and pushing himself. If any posters want a change from trying to work out how horribly bad that naughty Mr Simmonite is or whether a climb 10 grades beyond their abilities is correct then check out the hot aches report (link huigher up this thread). Utterly Gripping.

In reply to all

weren't a couple of holds chipped to make this line possible?

In reply to Ian Parnell:

Got to agree.

Plus, why do we need to argue about what Dave has said, if James is correct with his grade, then is it not the hardest trad route in the world? Could well be.

I think it's important that we distinguish between what is forum thread and what is news reporting, I reckon too many people get these confused. I'd be the first to complain if Dave had written half the drivel posted above, but he hasn't, it reads like a thought provoking and certainly controversial piece. That's what I want to hear!

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: #

Great report on the hotaches blog...truly gripping stuff. What a stunning piece of rock!

To all those bitching about the grade - any volunteers to have a go at the route and let us know what you think???

In reply to J Dunne:


Well after skim-reading several screenfuls of utter drivel in this thread, it was both a surprise and a pleasure to suddenly find myself laughing out loud...

Cheers JD!

Neil

In reply to DEvans:

No, it was cavemen painting.

In reply to Erik B:

Seriously, you are coming across as a miserable, whining, tit. If James was Scottish would you still be ranting like this? I think not. You are boring and predictable.

Well done James, I for one couldn't care what grade echo wall or walk of life or rhapsody get, awesome lines, devastatingly hard, and more importantly just climbers climbing stuff. I love it.

By the way isn't it good that only really in the UK (and USA) are people pushing trad routes to the limit, who cares how hard people can boulder or clip bolts? Macleod and pearson and co deserve a medal for their dedication to the cause.

Amazing.

In reply to spa_bob:

Ooooooooh another poor jibe at the hallowed gritstone. Give over. If you spent as much time climbing as you did ranting about your pissy little SPA you might possibly be in some kind of position to comment on the promise. Actually no you wouldn't.

In In reply to Ian Parnell:

There is no new world media. The media has changed. The important thing to remember, whether writing in print or on a website is not to attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of the everyday climber.

Hyperbole is quickly exposed these days. Recognise that change. People can read and interpret the media these days. Everyone, as well as you, has a voice.

It's the everyday climber, who posts on here and reads here daily, that fund your work Ian Parnell. They pay your bills. You know that. Respect must be shown.

This is not the 1980's when climbing journalists could get away with murder, although some have yet to learn that.

Dave, in his enthusiasm for James's achievement and because of his own commercial interests in this ascent, made a misstep.

He apologised and probably, hopefully, learnt a lesson.

Book looks good, Mr James has been busy on it all day, just next to me.

Mick

In reply to bomb:

I think by assuming that only in the UK and the USA are people trad climbing hard you are displaying some serious insularism and/or a serious lack of geographical knowledge.....

AJM

In reply to AJM: I concur. Mr bomb is more misinformed than I thought possible for someone with access to internet...

I didn't mean that at all, its just it seems the majority of the truly cutting edge stuff is coming from british climbers and I think its a good thing. Apologies if i offended, and maybe should have phrased it differently.

In reply to andi turner:

I forgot that you can get a bit extra E grade for insecurity, especially on slabs, but in this sensible chair pundit's opinion 8a+ isn't any where near hard enough for an E12. The now pegless Dyer Straits alone is 8a+ climbing, in any case, and that's after the hard bold bit. You're still talking at least 8c. It'd be amusing if the redpoint crux of an E12 was a 6b move though!

In reply to jwi:

Yep, an 8a+ on trad gear done at done at my local crag last summer by a great climber who probably only half a dozen other readers of UKC will have heard of. Probably E7 or E8 I guess in UK money? Another trad route done around the same time in West Finland that is probably harder than that as well. And that is just one little country with a tiny, relatively new climbing population.

In reply to bomb:

You haven't made it much better for yourself there I'm afraid.

I'll pop the names Nico Favresse and Sonnie Trotter (and Beth Rodden since you've now moved away from mentioning the USA) into your thoughts and leave you to consider a little longer.

AJM

In reply to bomb:

Which again just suggests you don't know that much about climbs being done elsewhere in the world.

In reply to Ian Parnell:

Agreed. Awesome, awesome effort James. My plams are sweating 20 minutes after reading the hotaches blog. Stunning.

In reply to TobyA:
...or the Uber Hubers, or the Aussies (remember Toby Benham dismissing many of our hard grit test pieces as 'highball boulder problems'?).

In reply to 1234None:

Yeah alright, I've got nothing on this weekend. I want to do the E2 there anyway. Someone has to pick me up from my house and abseil down the line and preplace about 126 limpets for me to use as holds though.

In reply to TobyA:

Well, OK, Toby, but to be fair that's not cutting edge, nowhere near.

Seriously, are there trad routes elsewhere (other than the USA, which of course in UK-speak includes Canada) remotely comparable to Echo Wall and The Walk of Life? I don't know of them, but I don't keep up these days. Educate me.

jcm

In reply to AJM: Or how about Markus Haid and Hansjörg Auer? Or Didier Berthod and Giovanni Quirici? Haid and Auer did Arctandria on Kvaloya, in 9 hrs ground up, all trad, no preplaced gear last summer. 450 mtrs and pitch grades 7b+, 8b, 7c, 8a, 7b, 7c+, 7a, 6b+, 6c+.

Anyway - none of this is to take away from James' gold medal deserving effort, but only to suggest to Bomb that he reads around a bit more.

In reply to Serpico:

Educate me again, what would the Hubers' hardest trad route outside the US be. Something in the Dolomites, I'm sure, but would it really compare to these routes? And if Toby Benham cares to come over again and dismiss Cratcliffe Groove as a highball boulder problem, then I shall be impressed.

jcm

In reply to TobyA:

Again, Toby, I recall that as well, but it's not clear to me that's in the same league, or perhaps more accurately not quite the same game.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Well, it may not be as bold.

But then I'm fairly sure you can count the number of trad routes in the UK with climbing physically as hard as 8b on the fingers of your hands, if not one hand - Rhapsody, presumably this new one, Echo Wall, Equilibrium, maybe Divided Years depending on what grade its considered nowadays.......? Any other contenders - I can't think of any off the top of my head?

And lets not forget that we're talking an 8b pitch on a 500m route (and the recent free ascent meant that by the end of a day they had climbed the whole thing in clean pitches where neither leader nor second fell - if the second fell the leader would abb and relead the pitch) climbed on the final push in 9 hours.......

And as for Tobys Finnish trad 8a+ - may not be cutting edge if given an E grade, but presumably because its a well protected crack - again if you look at how physically hard it is its definitely up there in contention.....

AJM

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Hmm, I guess we see different things when we read this thread. You see a victory for people power, I see a 200plus post thread supposedly about a jaw dropping climb but get stuck on what looked like a private tiff and a circular grade debate. Surely James's climb deserved better, such as the heart stirring hot aches report.

At its best UKC is great; the level of informed opinion on the photo forum, the ammount of winter info that can be gleaned once the season starts, Jack's recent pieces on lesser known UK climbers amonghst many others, but for me this thread typified the worst bits of UKC.

Anyway I'm guilty of doing exactly what I hate and distracting again from James's amazing achievement. I'll get back to the rewrites and you get back to editing my book!

In reply to Ian Parnell:

I hate the freakin rain. When is it going to stop?

I blame much of it on the rain and the gray clouds.

Brownie and Co. did a great job.

I hear teams all across the UK are racing to Dyer's Lookout.

That's how it should be and how it was.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

The sentiment behind many of the posts is simply a request for accurate reporting. It's worth fighting about.
Again we see Simmonite's reportage of cutting edge routes fall short of the mark and while this may generate controversy it does the top climbers a major disservice.

In reply to Randy Baird:

I agree, but the side issue is worth a thread on its own, it's detracting from the point of the thread.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: can't you get James on here to sort this out once and for all? i sense some tongue in cheek with his grade
i suggest the E10s get some repeats b4 all this E10+ nonsense

In reply to DEvans:

I heard he smuggled a ladder up there with him... :0)

Awesome route, I'm not really interested in all the bitchiness and like to try and take things at face value. It seems to me that we're seeing some great climbing history being made and the last year or so has produced some phenomenal routes. It'd be a shame to look back and have it hidden under a haze of griping. Mind you if it wasn't controversial maybe folk would pay no heed..?

In reply to morphus:

Jack's working on something as I'm sure others are.

Fundamentally the problem lies with our grading system and the mad scrabble for a little money.

How can a grade quantify an experience? It can't.

Dave MacLeod showed the ultimate in humility and maturity when he refused to grade Echo Wall. OK by saying it was harder than Rhapsody it is grading by default but at least he didn't get us all lathered up at the mouth by giving it E12.

Dave paid for that non committal by a sparcity of coverage on the web and in print. But gained in so many other ways.

James Pearson has just had an ultimate climbing experience.

It is then tainted by attaching a grade to it and a mad scrabble of commercial interests to captilise on it - photographers, writers, magazines, websites, gear companies.....

A sad and sorry state of affairs.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

and film companies.....

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
>>

Which as one of the above you have the power to correct if you wish.

I'll say again though - well done James on a very good climb.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Oooh! Mick, you naughty boy I was just about to come over all lovely dovey and agree with you that lot of rain and shorter evenings lead to internet bollocks and then you go and write that!
James's climbing experience isn't tainted by attaching a grade you daft bugger. His amazing climbing experience is amazing period, whether you or any number of internet pundits like the sound of E12 or not.

In reply to Ian ' internet pundit' Parnell:



That is true.


That is true.

I sit corrected.

I am however becoming increasingly worried that Ian Parnell is turning in to an internet pundit.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:



Aye well he's not pretty enough to be a TV pundit! :0)

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
how hard is the climbing on cobra crack?

In reply to james oswald:

8c or 5.14b (depending on finger size). Obviously it harder to stop and place the gear.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Nice and patronising!!

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
What E grade would Cobra crack roughly get?

In reply to james oswald: all the really hard climbs are about E10

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I am deeply impressed by this ascent, and by Dave Macleod recent success as well. It boggles my mind trying to comprehend what has been achieved. They must be miles ahead of the best solo-climbers on the continent!

In this style, with heavy toproping before leading very serious climbs, the envelope seems to be pushed hardest in UK and parts of North America.

However, as other people already pointed out, there is more to traditional climbing than this heavily rehearsed style. When it comes to ground up and onsight climbing in the mountains, I think don't think the envelope gets pushed harder in UK/US then the rest of the world. There are some very impressive ascents in the Pyrenees, the Alps, Norway, etc. Big -Wall 8a+ with runouts getting onsight first ascents, 8c with A4 gear gets put up ground up, alpine 8c+ with bad gear gets put up ground up, 8c with mandatory 8a+ climbing gets redpointed in the mountains, etc.

In reply to jwi:

Impressive! What routes are these?

In reply to james oswald:

I'm not sure but I think it would get E9 6c or 7a as it is perfectly protected 8c. Possibly E10 at a push if placing the gear bumps the overall effort up to 8c+ but I would err on the side of E9.

In reply to jwi:

Which routes? Just interested for next year's trip.

The Ent

In reply to teddy: One in the Dolomites by A. Huber, the other in the Pyrenees by the Pou-brothers. I didn't memorise the route-names as I will never be able to do them.

There is a 8a+/8b grade VI route put up onsight a few years ago by some Spanish dudes on Kjerag as well.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Come on guys, you've had over a day now and the logbooks database still won't take E12...

In reply to jwi:



Exactly. The insular nature of both US and UK climbing, the diverse grading systems used in different countries, combined with lack of resources of the climbing media that stifles thorough research and reportage means that most are ignorant of climbing achievement on a global scale.

We just operate in our own little worlds shouting, with nationalistic pride, about the world's hardest this and that with no references.

Ian Parnell sums it up well in "Victors of the Unwinnable".... it may be about the Piolet d'Or but applies just as well to the 'grading game'.

In reply to jwi:

>When it comes to ground up and onsight climbing in the mountains, I think don't think the envelope gets pushed harder in UK/US then the rest of the world

No, well, obviously. We don't have any mountains!

Seriously, though, 8c+ ground up with bad gear? Really??

jcm

In reply to Ian Parnell: Ian, I do feel a semblence of guilt for digressing on this thread, however biased, agenda ridden journalism makes my blood boil, if you lived in the west of scotland and like the colour green youd know where I am coming from. Its a shame that climbing is riddled with this desease as well.

Id rather read James's own personal account of his inspirational ascent, rather than a film company attempting to plug part 2 of a very dull and drole climbing dvd series (yes I have bought all their DVDs, so obviously I am a sucker to hyperbole), and before anyone says it they are not a charity doing it solely for the love of climbing!

looking forward to seeing your snuff wall ascent on the onsight dvd,will be great to see some filming of a hard modern scottish onsight winter first ascent - perhaps first time ever? although I have heard stories from the boys about some filming of creagh dhu members in the past, not sure what happened to the film right enough, shame norrie is banned from UKC!

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Inspiring piece of rock and a fine achievement. My only worry is that the great routes here might easily become historic in every sense of the word!

In reply to Erik B: I've just pre-ordered Onsight...I'm probably more excited about wathing it than anything I've seen in the last few years.

In, fact, probably since I went to see E11 at the Edinburgh mountain film festival.

In reply to Erik B:


You`ve reached 32 years of age (according to your profile) and just realised that journalism is " biased and agenda ridden " ???

... or could it be that you have your own agenda ?

In reply to lummox: Im 34, dont know where you get the impression I have "just realised"?

In this instance my only agenda is to highlight sinister journalism and to stick up for Dave Macleod who has had a fair bit of hostility towards him from certain factions in the UK climbing media, I recall that one of said faction was very quick to re-write an article after I highlighted on UKC a clear agenda - quick re-writing of an article is a sure sign of guilt.

I have no idea why a fair few on this thread are being hostile to me, however, i dont give a castelmaine xxxx !!!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
"I am however becoming increasingly worried that Ian Parnell is turning in to an internet pundit." Me too!I promise to get on with my work and stop getting distracted.

Toby I'm working on the comb over for TV

Erik - more impressive footage than me on that route (which I think is now called "Burning with Anxiety") is my mate Jon the day before in appalling conditions on Winter Chimney. See you up amongst the blixxards in about a months time hopefully.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Dave MacLeod showed the ultimate in humility and maturity when he refused to grade Echo Wall

Equalled only by Gandhi's steadfast non-violence in the face of slaughter by the Raj.

In reply to Simon Lee:

Yeah but what did Ghandi ever do on grit?

I thank you.

In reply to Simon Lee: LOL ! Very good..

In reply to David Simmonite: Awesome pics, really atmospheric. I hope the left hand one on the Climb website graces the front cover un-cropped and with no straplines.... too much to hope?
Sam

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


You just told me UKC was the real world. Is it not ?

In reply to Mark Kemball:

I believe Nick Smith is currently enjoying the Kalymnos sunshine, so maybe e-mail him direct for a logbooks tweak...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

There's all these Huber things, (Bellavista in the Dollies?). I had the impression that most of them were old aid lines and had quite a few pegs or three. Highly impressive and covetable no doubt. But you'd certainly need more quickdrawers than you would sliders and WC zeros etc. Also I'm probably not the only one who's heard that sport grades in the mountains (the alps anyway) are way over graded.

Pearson on the other hand has taken the pegs out. It's about time someone gave Devon and Cornwall sea cliff headpointing this kick up the arse it needs and said, no thankyou, using pegs on sea cliff routes you've top roped is just not good enough. It absolutely pisses over a few other recent first ascents here and in pembroke I could mention. Other honourable people have been good enough to leave pegless challenges hereabouts for themselves or others, that they were very sure they could do with pegs. I hope this draws a line under them.

I don't mind pegs in trad routes, its still a trad route even if totally pegged up (as was Dyer Straights E8 6b) as pegs can quite easily rip out or fail when fallen on, especially if the rock quality is dodgy or if the climb is near the sea and the metal erodes. Where the waters get murky is where bolts are used as well as pegs and gear. Huber's routes on the Cima di Lavaredo have massive runouts on them but they may be between bolts as well as pegs and old gear. Therefore in my mind they are not clear cut trad routes even though the falls may be massive as bolts are totally safe (I accept that there may be cases where new bolts have occasionally ripped out but this is besides the point). Fair enough massive falls may be involved but that makes just a very runout sport route like those in the Ratikon and such routes should not truly deserve E grades in my view. Maybe a new symbol needs to be tagged on after the sport grade eg. 8c R/X or something of that nature? I always feel that even 1 bolt on a 'trad' route makes me not feel like I have earnt a proper E grade (eg some of the partially bolted stuff at Malham like Bolt Revolt/ Extra Over).

fantastic effort....stunning line. Must of been amazing topping out!

In reply to oetzi:

After 45 minutes on the very edge, I bet it was !

In reply to richard kirby:
"Staggering achievement with an excellent president set on the use of pegs in Devon & Cornwall."

Precedent.

In reply to james oswald:

Thank you james

In reply to Paz:

Staggering achievement with an excellent precedent set on the use of pegs in Devon & Cornwall.


Good point. To me this seems the way forward for hard extremes, so much purer and no iffy situations on situ gear for future repeats through decaying pegs. I suppose with the exception of the sea there's not a lot can change the routes pro unless of course it attracts lots of interest (unlikely) and falls (even more unlikely) thereby blowing what gear placements there are. It should remain the same, unthinkable proposition in 10 years time as it was at the weekend. This cannot be said for the other high end extremes relying on pegs.

A very, very impressive effort.

In reply to james oswald: A fine display of pedanticness.

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:
Sorry could help it .

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

pedantry surely?

In reply to richard kirby:
It should remain the same, unthinkable proposition in 10 years time as it was at the weekend. This cannot be said for the other high end extremes relying on pegs.


Assuming the cliff itself remains where it is of course...

In reply to Sam L:


Seconded. I'd buy an uncropped and strapless copy to stick on my wall, and would find it far less busy and more attractive on the shelf. (Think about it - busy straplines and texts works in isolation, but people buy from WHSmiths or wherever, where the mag is surrounded by Cosmo, OK, Now, Then, Howdo, KnitwearUK and possibly even Circuitboard International magazine. Simple will stand out.)

Also - congratulations on a superb route and achievement. Couldn't give a stuff about the grade, just look at the line. And Dyer's Lookout pegless - loving it! I and many others are applauding from the sidelines...

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: The secrets out - James reveals all:

Here's a quote from James's blog, posted yesterday:

'This morning I decided there was to be no computer access until it was all done and so finally after almost 2 hours of unpacking bags, folding washing, tidying up and hovering I was finished, or at least finished enough for now.'

Turns out that all you need to climb E12 is to learn how to hover.

In reply to broc:





Pretty much.

In reply to GrahamD:

Bloody hell. Just seen the picture of him and his mates in "mankinis" in the blog. Leading death routes must seem like a piece of piss after that...

Big Ron never had to resort to those kind of tactics.

In reply to Martin76:

Another update to his blog and a new picture here as well:

looks properly nails
http://jamespearsonclimbing.blogspot.com/

In reply to legonaut:

This line intrigues me:

"The Walk Of Life is the culmination of 4 years of effort"

Given James did the, or one of the, hardest routes on grit only 8 months ago, just how many 'last great problems' does someone like James have on the go at any one time ?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: i started reading all the bullshit bickering and had to check the thread title to make sure i was on the one about pearson's achievement!

well done james pearson on your outstanding success, well done dave simmonite for some amazing (once in a lietime?) pictures and well done to all the people who helped pearson along the way.

In reply to martin k: (once in a lietime?)


The accidental poetry of typos

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
After wading through that, I have to say well done to James, and pretty good choice of route name! Headband optional presumably...

In reply to yodude: Don't be an idiot.

In reply to Simon Lee:


Its Der Rattenfanger speak in Hamlyn, as in a light beer, "lietime"

thats Martenfangers reasoning's anyhoo!

;0)

Wouldnt it make more sense to equip the line with a nice set of shiny bolts? I am sure this is far more logical, would give more people a chance and would make a nice 9a. Where is the limit of the e grade? did there not use to be E7 7a? why cant there be E10 7b/7c. I am sure we would never have this debate if it was a sport grade.

Europe dont trad climb and they seem to have things right.

We are so far behind.
Mark W.

In reply to Anonymous: Are you serious?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: I'm a bit out of touch with the climbing scene atm after travelling europe and then moving to uni but has James Pearson done Rhapsody? If not (I know I'm gonna get shot down!) how can he grade it E12 if the hardest climb he's done before that is E10 (thats the grade he gave The Promise at the time, could be harder)? M

In reply to davies00:

He's been on Rhapsody (and appears to have disnissed it as an eliminate) so does know what the only proposed E11 is like. Obviously he thinks this is harder/more dangerous/both of the above.

In reply to davies00:
Nope he has not done Rhapsody.

In reply to davies00:

By the same measure Dave Mac hadn't done an E10 when he suggested E11 for Rhapsody: he'd never given one of his own routes E10, and the one 'E10' he'd repeated he'd downgraded to E8.

And it seems James Pearson thinks that The Groove is E11 with the benefit of a bit of hindsight.

In reply to Anonymous:
Do you just set out to start an argument?

In reply to Peter Walker: That is interesting about Dave Mac having never done an E10 before grading his E11, didn't know that.
And looking back on grades, Dave Birkett once said in Set in Stone "You don't want to keep on upgrading things cos you've gone back on them again; it's years of bad policy to do that cos you know I think the grades at the top level now seem to be exploding really into bigger numbers when there's probably small gaps between them." (when he's talking about Caution and If Six was Nine).
M.

In reply to davies00: Well, to be fair to DM he comes across as a tough grader. Bear in mind all the speculation that If Six Was Nine was actually E10, and he repeated it comparatively quickly and said it was a benchmark E9. Likewise Caution: people speculated it was really E9 (didn't DB originally suggest E7?!), and DM gave it E8 after the second ascent.

I'm sure he knew the publicity that would be generated by giving Rhapsody E11, but I bet it wasn't uppermost in his mind: he genuinely thought it was E11, and so far nobody has publically volunteered an opinion to the contrary.

In reply to Peter Walker:

To those of us who'll never climb it (or anything like it), I suspect that Rhapsody will forever be E11 (inseparable from that brilliant film) even if it's regraded by tomorrow's hotshots.

In reply to Anonymous:

http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/search/label/Lake%20District

Yes, I'm sure.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

The thread is too long for me to read at present, but I'm going to throw my opinion in anyway:

1). How much more are you going to die on an E12 than an E11 or E10 etc.? It's true that the British grading system, certainly at the top end, is out of control. Graded for the onsight etc. blah, blah ,blah. You can just imagine the scenario ten years from now;
"I'm really not sure whether it's a hard E32 or a soft E33."

2). Why is some one like James not engaging in the current discussion of overhauling the grading system (e.g. Adam Wainwright's 'The Headpointing Debate' in September's 'Climber', instead of cranking up the 'E's.

3).Is it really going to have to take one of the top lads to die before this trend of climbing hitherto-unbelievably-dangerous-routes is re-assessed? Don't get me wrong,I utterly admire the skill and balls of the like of J.P. and D.M.etc., but it's surely only a matter of time before the worst happens.Meanwhile many of us are gleefully watching their insane efforts almost forgetting that they are guys who will leave behind grieving loved-ones.

4). Finally, 'Climb' I fear has,after a promising start, just become a comic. It seems utterly incabable of engaging with any of the meaningful debates and unashamedly sensationalises with a view to bigger circulation than much else.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: I think we are loosing the way the British system works. Take an example from a lower graded route... say a 5c tech grade.... This can only be stretched to E5 max, I think I am right in saying no E6 5c's exist? So if this is how it works... how far can you stretch the 7a tech grade? E10 I think... any higher E grades and you have to be doing harder tech moves in very dangerous life threatning positions... So E11 has to be 7b with some death potential etc.. So E12 has to be 7b moves solo! (no gear available)

Just some thoughts.... Mark

In reply to M. Edwards:

So sustained, strenuous 5c moves above a bad landing could never be E6!?

In reply to james oswald: E5 5c has to be a solo with no gear potential... and a bad landing. It just can't get any harder! Go down to 4a... seen any E1's at 4a? There just has to be a limit on death potential and certain death! Mark

In reply to M. Edwards:

You are right and its in this table:
http://www.rockfax.com/publications/grades-bold.html

Its official - English 7b can only be on a safe E11 ! - who cares ?

In reality anyone who takes their blinkers off for two seconds will have realised that English tech grades are a nonsense and furthermore E grades are outdated and becoming an embarrasment.

That aside, the route looks an incredible and stunning achievement.

In reply to Mark Sheridan:


What if there's an E10 with one death runout, right next to it there's an E11 which starts up the adjacent E10, does the E10's death runout then does another death runout but finishes on easy ground.
Then someone comes along, links the two together but with an independent finish which has a 7b last move which would be death if you lobbed.
What grade do you give the third route?

The Ent

In reply to M. Edwards: There's an E5 5c at Upper Cave crag at Dunkeld, that's got a really solid no.5 nut at the start of the hard climbing and a difficult to place RP widway through.

If you did without the RP, a smst probably would do on the onsight, you'd be facing a 5m fall onto a ledgy arete.

E5 5c might be a solo with no gear potential on grit, but it doesn't mean it has to be everywhere!

In reply to M. Edwards: What about a route with certain death potential, that has more sustained climbing, at the same technical grade as another route.

Would you not up the E grade for that.

e.g. Route 1 - E10 7a, Fr 8b climbing, certain death
Route 2 - E11 7a, Fr 8c climbing, certain death.

The limit isn't the "certain death" it's the overall difficulty of the climbing.

Found this on You Tube - which hints at the grade for Echo wall.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PNRIA7ckJeE

Whatever grade these cutting edge routes are is secondary to the personal achievement of having the vision to see something that really inspires and having the strength of will and conviction to achieve your goal. The emotions and personal rewards are just as relevant to someone climbing their first VS, E1 or red-pointing your first 8a as it is to McCleod, Pearson or Sharma climbing Echo Wall, The Walk of Life or Jumbo Love!

Lee

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

Do we not have the route description to tell us if its sustained or not? We still get Spanish sports routes with one hard move, and some with many similar moves in a row, and both are equal grades. I agree the grade should reflect the climbing. But the leader at the end of the day, just wants to know how hurt he/she will be if a fall is taken at that tech grade; not how pumped he/she is going to be. Go and do a sports routes for that satisfaction. Mark

In reply to abarro81:

I totally agree. The way I see it:
The E number is if you fall, how hurt you'll be.
The tech grade is how hard the hardest move is?
The description gives an idea of length/gradient/rock quality.
M

In reply to M. Edwards:

Mark - given your experience of both Spain and UK / hard trad and sport what would you think about an out-and-out Risk grade accompanied by a French grade as an alternative way to grade trad routes ? The overall Risk grade would have to proportional to the difficulty ie a runout Fr6a might get a high overall risk grade for the route but a Fr8a that was well protected on the hard bit but had a runout Fr6a bit would have a low overall Risk grade (unless it was on mud!).

6 grades of Risk might be a good number. Establishing the number from the outset would be important as it wouldn't be an open-ended system so perhaps erring on too many would be the best way to go.

Risk grades are successfully used in the States as R/X grades with YDS grade and in deepwater soloing as S grades accompomapnied by French grades ("the World's favourite grade"). Their use with trad routes would be a positive evolution I think.

In reply to abarro81:

So you think it's alright to just go around insulting people like that, do you? And has it completely passed you by that neither of your two contributions to this thread show either a) or b)?

You need to have a serious word with yourself.

Tony

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

We have peaks though, it would seem

In reply to davies00 and M.Edwards:

Like it or not, the E-grade does take into account the overall sustainedness/pumpiness.

This is the status quo.

Whether or not it needs changed is a completely different topic.

In reply to Simon Lee: My first thoughts on this... Its a lot of work to re-write all them guides in the UK with a new grading system. But then, I am open to new ideas. So, all I can suggest is... choose a crag of your choice, and you know well, and done all the routes, and give your alternative grades to all the routes... Mods to Extreme. Then try it out! If it works, then you have something worth considering. Unless there is something we can use as a working model, we are all just guessing at this one. Mark

In reply to M. Edwards: Incredible, this thread has had over 14,000 views and 300 replies, who would have thought a climbing thread on UKC would get that.
Mark, I have sat below that wall on several occaisions, and pondered, and each time walked away, I was not worthy

In reply to Al Evans: I wonder if this new route will encourage the Climbers Club to update the North Devon and Cornwall guide, hope so

In reply to stevieo10:
Many years ago when I was wobbling up Eather Rim Roamer II for the second time (is it really still there?) Paul Riley was working on what became Vicker's route.
Meanwhile Ken Palmer was top-roping a line way left up the centre of the wall. I seem to remember he could do it in two halves, but said he was going to give up because too many holds kept breaking to give him much chance of a clean lead. ..Maybe time for another look?

In reply to TonyG:

But he's got a track history of both a) and b) If someone's being like a retard, especially if they're also anonymous, then it's OK to call a spade a spade. It's a self policing community.

I'm sorry about the conotations towards people with learning difficulties or whatever, but these days UKC won't let us call a dick a dick and I have a limited vocabulary.

In reply to M. Edwards:

I can take your point, but English technical grades are broke - a 6a move is much wider than a 5c one, and a 6b one is much wider than a 6c one, a 7a one is just about defined, above that you just may as well use bouldering grades like everyone climbing at this level does. Should these boudlering and sport grades that people use anyway be the exclusive preserve of gossip hornets like me, or should it go in the guidebook where everyone's got a fair chance of seeing it

Also yes, you're right, I want to know how hurt I'll probably get if I fall
off, but on difficult ground I'm much better at climbing than I am at stopping and placing gear. I sometimes think I'm more likely to hurt myself on a supposedly safe E5, than on a bold one with much much easier climbing. Both could be E5 6a. On the `safe' one I think it's very possible I could not get the gear in - (even on a vertical E4 6b, am I really expected to place wires from a f*cking first joint mono? - I do hope I cocked up there and missed something, but hey it's a thin finger crack). Just telling me a route's E5, or even that it's E5 5c to E5 6b, tells me nothing, and no, guidebook descriptions are not that fricking helpful, are often wrong and I am not going to trust that information. They are seldom (at this level) written by people who've actually done the routes.

In reply to Paz:

I take it all back UKC moderators, and I salute your tolerance, of the more vanilla swear words. You're making a stand for free speech. go guys.

In reply to Mark Sheridan:

>2). Why is some one like James not engaging in the current discussion of overhauling the grading system (e.g. Adam Wainwright's 'The Headpointing Debate' in September's 'Climber', instead of cranking up the 'E's.

I give up. Maybe he's more interested in climbing hard and grading as accurately as he can within the existing system rather than f*ckwitted debate about what system we should use? Just a wild guess.

jcm

In reply to Paz:

>guidebook descriptions are not that fricking helpful, are often wrong and I am not going to trust that information. They are seldom (at this level) written by people who've actually done the routes.

Curious thing to say. Guidebook descriptions are all but invariably written by the people who've done the routes. How on earth do you suppose they get into the guidebook?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Probably wasn't worth the reply.

Well done James (and Dave) for keeping our lead climbing game moving forward.

As for grades no one knows exactly in uncharted territory, but time, increasing talent and repeat ascents will sort that out a lot better than the now generation of armchair critics on UKC.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I apologise, I meant no slur on the club you are a member of's fine publications, and even then some have got it wrong. As ever, some are good and some are bad. This still means in general they're inconsistently reliable.

I had in mind some of rockfax's goof ups. Everyone makes a mistake, fine, but on other occasions they just simply didn't check the 3* route in question, which once only left me a little curious, and on another occasion left me in the shit (also due to my own actions). Am I going to go and believe their little heart fluttery symbol after that?

In reply to Paz:

Oh, sorry, I thought you meant proper guidebooks. Obviously you wouldn't trust Rockfax's descriptions.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Fiver says that gets pulled :-D

In reply to Paz:

Really???

So lets get this straight. You can't tell any difference from a route that is graded E5 5c and E5 6b?

Why not?

In fact, I think what you are saying is that just saying the route is E5 means nothing to you. So, to you its says no more than a route graded MVS? It gives no inkling as to which may be a little more taxing?

Do you have some form of grading dyslexia?

Have you ever thought that along with the vast majority of others who post on here you don't really grasp the UK grading system? Is it really that hard? No, it isn't.

In reply to Niall:

We are smiling here Niall.

In reply to Paz:

I'm with you on this one. I'd actually go as far as to say that all rockfax symbols are a waste of time.

Fluttery Heart - Useless
Long reach - Useless
Fingery - Useless
Pumpy - Useless

Too much info if you ask me. That's one of the reasons I've never been a fan of rockfax guides.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Ah go on, I'll split the fiver with you

Deleted some posts.... cut the insults to other posters please.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

You can't do that, Mick! I collect Rocktalk insults, on the self-centred assumption they were directed at me.

Maybe the practice should be to forward forum insults to the proud recipient, while deleting them pour encourager les autres.

jcm

In reply to Alpha:

You've got this compelelty wrong.

Right then Genius, I'm thinking of a random E5 6a. Tell me just fromm the grade: is it safe as houses or bold as brass?

In reply to Paz:

You couldn't tell. But its a daft question because how often is that the only information you have to go on? Never.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

James has updated his blog http://jamespearsonclimbing.blogspot.com/

Very interesting reading. There is a great bit on the history of the line.

He also compares it to other hard routes he has done or been on, including Rhapsody...

In reply to stevieo10:


It is being worked on.

In reply to duncan:

>"Very interesting reading."

Indeed, it's always good to hear open and honest opinion straight from the horse's mouth...

In reply to duncan:

Excellent well reasoned writing as ever from JP. Hopefully this will put to bed the pathetic "Scotland v England" nonsense made up by members of this forum once and for all. Although somehow I doubt it....

In reply to seagull:

That is a minor issue from 1 or 2 people.

The bigger issue discussed on here, in print, and as I witnessed last night on a London tube by Neil Gresham and Pete Robins is about E grades as applied to top routes and the style they are climbed in.