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Will chalk and rubber dust kill us all?

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 Heike 15 Oct 2008
Coming back from the wall yesterday we were discussing what all this rubber and chalk dust is going to do to our lungs in the long run. Anyone got any ideas, will we all die of rubberlung (a new disease similar to asbetos induced disease) or I am just being silly?

 Stuzz 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Heike:

Can i get back to you on that one?
in say, about 50 years?
OP Heike 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Stuzz:
You can try, but I'll probably be dead by then...
In reply to Heike: indoor climbers deserve it
 Al Evans 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Heike: Well Milk of Magnesia is just a suspension of Magnesiun Carbonate in liquid, so I doubt thats gonna do much harm, don't know about the rubber though.
 last ascent 15 Oct 2008
when i switched from chalk balls to loose i found myself often inhaling big clouds of chalk for a while. didn't feel good.
 Tall Clare 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Heike:

hmm, do you think people working in custard factories have similar problems?

"it was the custard wot done 'im in, guv"
"that's a trifle unusual, no?"

</coat>

 Stuzz 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Heike:
Well depending how things pan out i may be too, so i could let you know in the afterlife. although thinking about it, there wouldnt be much point by then...
 Liam Copley 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Heike: I have always assumed that breathing in chalk wouldn't be harming my health, becuase nobody tells me not to breath it in lol, i wouldn't be suprised though in 40 years time if i have breathing problems
 Tall Clare 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Liam Copley:

although I suppose, in contrast, you'll have got lots of nice fresh air through being out bouldering in the open air...
OP Heike 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Tall Clare:

LOL - There's a name for this affliction, it's called obesity.
i.munro 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Al Evans:

> Well Milk of Magnesia is just a suspension of Magnesiun Carbonate in liquid, so I doubt thats gonna do much harm, don't know about the rubber though.

Not sure the fact that it's safe to eat/drink means it's safe to breathe.
At a factory I worked in one summer you had to wear breathing masks anywhere near the nachine that sprayed egg glaze onto the sausage rolls & that was long before anyone heard the phrase "Health & safety"

 toad 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Al Evans: doesn't quite work like that- there are plenty of toxins (some snake venom, for a start) that you could drink quite safely. Come to that, farmers lung is from dust that's a byproduct of food production.

And hey, outside climbers - has anyone been pushing through bracken to get to the crag? Best not be starting any long novels.
OP Heike 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Stuzz:
> (In reply to Heike)
> Well depending how things pan out i may be too, so i could let you know in the afterlife. although thinking about it, there wouldnt be much point by then...

Hey, we might always come back as James Pearson or Lynn Hill in the next life....

OP Heike 15 Oct 2008
In reply to toad:

> And hey, outside climbers - has anyone been pushing through bracken to get to the crag? Best not be starting any long novels.


Is that the stuff about it being carcinogenic? Oh well, I have really had it then, considering all the cross-country running, walking and climbing I have done...
 toad 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Heike:
> (In reply to toad)
>
> [...]
>
>
> Is that the stuff about it being carcinogenic?

There's strong evidence to suggest the spores are. It's certainly very poisonous - it will kill livestock, and the japenese who eat the young stalks (they consider it a delicacy) have a high incidence of oral cancer.

Fantastic plant. Found everywhere in the world, and only has a handful of successful pest/ predator species, 'cos of its chemical defences.
 Stuzz 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Heike:

Haha. that'll be the day
 Jimmy D 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Heike:

A mate of mine often takes wall staff to task over this and suggests they get extractors/filters fitted. As far as I know, only one (Barden, now sadly closed)took up on this and fitted a filter.
 Bruce Hooker 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Heike:

I don't know about silicosis (why not after all?) but apparently it can lead to a quite dramatic drop in the sperm count.... which probably wouldn't matter much to the sort of people who climb indoors, but it might worry those who intended to have children later on.

I'd be worried about silicosis though if I ever touched the white filth
In reply to Heike:

P'raps they should make cocaine cheaper and we could all use that in our chalk bags instead?
 schloosh 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Ava Adore:

It's terrible for grip cos yer fingers keep going numb
 Al Evans 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Bruce Hooker: But it has no silicon in it?
 henryg 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Heike: I like the idea of telling people, 'i'm dying of rubberlung!' (For some weird reason)
 Craig Geddes 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Heike: If we keep getting summers as wet as the one just gone I think i'll find out sooner rather than later...
 Bruce Hooker 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Al Evans:

Not even in the rubber?

I didn't know that silicosis was from silicon... how silly of me!

I thought you could get it from any powder suspension, like flour, chocolate or even custard powder... all are explosion dangers. Thinking about it, perhaps the sperm count problems are nature's way of preventing indoor climbers from breeding? It's wonderful the way nature works... one could even come round to believing there was some kind of intelligence behind the design of it all.
 Mikkel 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Heike:
We wont all be killed.

Personaly i stay away from the local wall due to the crazy ammount of chalk dust in the air.
Ian Black 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Heike:
> Coming back from the wall yesterday we were discussing what all this rubber and chalk dust is going to do to our lungs in the long run. Anyone got any ideas, will we all die of rubberlung (a new disease similar to asbetos induced disease) or I am just being silly?






I would worry more about all the passive smoking when it was acceptable to smoke in public places.

OP Heike 15 Oct 2008
In reply to henryg:
> (In reply to Heike) I like the idea of telling people, 'i'm dying of rubberlung!' (For some weird reason)


Yeah, it's a very heroic death. I can just hear it, two old gnarly climbers sitting on a bench: "The old rubberlung is given me grief, Dougie". "Aye ,true, but what about my arthritis in the fingers"


 JSA 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Jimmy D:
> (In reply to Heike)
>
> As far as I know, only one (Barden, now sadly closed)took up on this and fitted a filter.


pretty costly filter then eh?
 rob_lee 15 Oct 2008
In reply to Heike:
surely if we in-hake enough chalk it will clog the sweat pores from the inside so we wont sweat anymore.
that sounds like a viable option to me
 Al Evans 16 Oct 2008
In reply to Bruce Hooker: Errrrrr Bruce, I'm not being ridiculous here, I worked for 3 years in the Safety In Mines Dept in Sheffield, we did a lot of work on Silicosis. Dust in general does cause problems, but the real killer is Silica, just like Asbestos is in Asbestosis.
 nikinko 16 Oct 2008
In reply to Heike:

isn't this why lots of walls ban lose chalk and some ban it altogether?

I find if I blow my nose after a session at the wall the snot is the same colour as if I've been traveling around London all day, so I figure my nasal hairs are doing a reasonable job of keeping it out of my lungs!
 Sankey 16 Oct 2008
In reply to Heike: From a bit of knowledge of designing asthma inhalers, it is in fact very hard to deliver airborne particles into the lungs. Even if you are holding an inhaler designed to do exactly that to your mouth the efficiency is very low, anything greater than 30 % of the particles getting deep into the lungs is considered a big success. Bigger particles (>10 mircons) hit the back of the throat, and very small particles (< 1 micron) tend to go in and out without settling, so the danger area is 1-10 microns, I think chalk particles are bigger than this, so guess we are trapping them in out nose and throat (nice!) However, with very long term exposure, and very high particle density in the air, even a small amount of particles remaining in the lung could cause a problem...
 Bruce Hooker 16 Oct 2008
In reply to Al Evans:

Your sense of humour seems to be switched off today Al.
 Ewan Russell 18 Oct 2008
In reply to Heike:
Lucky for most of us theoretically the first people to start dropping like flies should be climbing wall staff who are exposed to it much more! So watch in 20 years time for wall staff just randomly dissappering. If this happens either its a cover up by the walls or prehaps they're just introducing robot workers!
 kipper12 18 Oct 2008
In reply to Heike:
> Coming back from the wall yesterday we were discussing what all this rubber and chalk dust is going to do to our lungs in the long run. Anyone got any ideas, will we all die of rubberlung (a new disease similar to asbetos induced disease) or I am just being silly?


A couple of things: The dust (rubber and chalk) you can see suspended in the air at climbing walls is by definition quite large (as you can see it) and therfore not likely to be respirable (around 5 microns). As it is not respirable it won't penetrate the deep lung and therefore any hazard relates to the upper respiratory tract. I don't know of any hazards of chalk (may have been investigated), but not so sure about rubber dust - but who would have thought wood dust causes nasal tumours in humans,it does though.

I am not sure whether there is any relevant information available, but as others have observed, it often takes many years for a link to be established between human exposure to a particular material and a adverse health effect.

If a risk exists, it is probably minimal.
 Al Evans 18 Oct 2008
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
>
> Your sense of humour seems to be switched off today Al.

Sorry missed the joke
 Al Evans 18 Oct 2008
In reply to Sankey: So are you saying that Asbestos and Silica particles are smaller than Chalk particles then?
 kipper12 18 Oct 2008
In reply to Al Evans:

The problem with asbestos is the fibres are long and thin, so arrowing down your airways, and tend to be durable, so persist when you are exposed to them. They can "harpoon" macrophages in the lungs as they try and engulf them, leaving a cellular kebab. The wounded macrophage leaks a number of substances, inclued a variety of reactive oxygen species, these cause a prolonged bout of cell damage that over time can lead to DNA damage end eventually cancer.

One of the key determinants of fibre toxicity is durability, very soluble oned dont to cause long term problems, the more durable asbestoe ones do, and we have the epidemic to prove it.

The insurance industry has been fighting a rear guard action for years to svoid costly pay outs. One problem we are becoming aware of now (see HSE website) is mesothelioma in a number of building trades, who disturb asbestos in older housing that had asbestos cement in its fabric, not just those working directly with asbestos.

Indeed, there are cases of close wives of asbestos workers getting mesothelioma as a consequence of secondary exposure from their work clothes. Not a brief subject.

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