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Just been announced over on UkBouldering that one of the visiting Americans has done Parthian Shot E9 6c ground up. Uber impressive.
EDIT: Oct 24: Kevin Jorgeson Grounds Up Parthian Shot E9 6c
on UKC news page:http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=10&year=2008#n45400
...and Kevin in his own words: Read more athttp://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=10&year=2008#n45401
EDIT: Oct 24: Kevin Jorgeson Grounds Up Parthian Shot E9 6c
on UKC news page:http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=10&year=2008#n45400
...and Kevin in his own words: Read more athttp://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=10&year=2008#n45401
In reply to peterbull: news indeed! he must have bollocks like a ram!
In reply to peterbull:
I was there in the valley at the time and managed to get some images of the event albeit from a distance, a great effort and good to see it.
I was there in the valley at the time and managed to get some images of the event albeit from a distance, a great effort and good to see it.
In reply to Removed User: what does grouond up mean?
In reply to peterbull:
Is that onsight?
Or headpointed, then done ground-up on lead?
Not that I'm dissing the climb. absolutely not.
This is the E9 that I think is most likely to go for an onsight. It's one that people actually go for the onsight on, and it's known that the gear has taken repeated falls.
Is that onsight?
Or headpointed, then done ground-up on lead?
Not that I'm dissing the climb. absolutely not.
This is the E9 that I think is most likely to go for an onsight. It's one that people actually go for the onsight on, and it's known that the gear has taken repeated falls.
In reply to Dominion: The impression on the other thread is it was ground-upped, not onsighted...
An improvement in style like this can only be a good thing. Good stuff.
An improvement in style like this can only be a good thing. Good stuff.
In reply to Dominion:
>Or headpointed, then done ground-up on lead?
FFS.
Aren't leads always ground-up? I thought starting at the top and going down to the ground had gone out of fashion.
jcm
>Or headpointed, then done ground-up on lead?
FFS.
Aren't leads always ground-up? I thought starting at the top and going down to the ground had gone out of fashion.
jcm
In reply to space monkey:
Leading with out top rope inspection. It may take several attempts and i think each time people return to the ground however i'm unsure.
Leading with out top rope inspection. It may take several attempts and i think each time people return to the ground however i'm unsure.
In reply to Martin Rogers: also been announced that the flake is "BOMBER"....?
Form an orderly queue
Form an orderly queue
In reply to peterbull:
Very impressive, but is the route really E9? I'm struck by how much attention, repeats, falls, etc Peak E9s gate compared to Macleod and Birkett's offerings at this grade.
Very impressive, but is the route really E9? I'm struck by how much attention, repeats, falls, etc Peak E9s gate compared to Macleod and Birkett's offerings at this grade.
In reply to Jamie B.:
Well, yes, but then VSses at Stanage get an awful more attention, repeats, falls, etc, compared to, say, Kirkus' offerings at that grade.
jcm
Well, yes, but then VSses at Stanage get an awful more attention, repeats, falls, etc, compared to, say, Kirkus' offerings at that grade.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
So you mean this Kirkus bloke's routes are really E9 but he's just shunned by the Sheffield based media? Typical.
So you mean this Kirkus bloke's routes are really E9 but he's just shunned by the Sheffield based media? Typical.
In reply to peterbull:
link to images here, I'll load them up onto ukc in a bit. I was just leaving and looked back and thought he's going to do it so they're taken from near the path and cropped but hey it was nice to have seen it and give some congratz.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31734285@N02/sets/72157608341060857/
link to images here, I'll load them up onto ukc in a bit. I was just leaving and looked back and thought he's going to do it so they're taken from near the path and cropped but hey it was nice to have seen it and give some congratz.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31734285@N02/sets/72157608341060857/
In reply to Removed User:
shame you were down on the path, bloody good pics all the same, well done!
shame you were down on the path, bloody good pics all the same, well done!
In reply to the inspiral carpet:
yeah, I had to just shoot from there otherwise I wouldn't have got anything but they had a photographer recording it so the good images will come out from that. This is just a bumbly in the peak eye view who just happened to be there at the time
yeah, I had to just shoot from there otherwise I wouldn't have got anything but they had a photographer recording it so the good images will come out from that. This is just a bumbly in the peak eye view who just happened to be there at the time
In reply to J Dunne:
EDIT: Oct 24: Kevin Jorgeson Grounds Up Parthian Shot E9 6c
on UKC news page:http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=10&year=2008#n45400
EDIT: Oct 24: Kevin Jorgeson Grounds Up Parthian Shot E9 6c
on UKC news page:http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=10&year=2008#n45400
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Hats off to you, john - top stuff.
>
> Aren't leads always ground-up? I thought starting at the top and going down to the ground had gone out of fashion.
>
> jcm
> Aren't leads always ground-up? I thought starting at the top and going down to the ground had gone out of fashion.
>
> jcm
Hats off to you, john - top stuff.
"This afternoon, after a couple of days, effort Kevin Jorgeson succeeded on what has not been done before - a ground up ascent of a confirmed E9 grit route."
E9 has been done flash/GU before apparantly.
E9 has been done flash/GU before apparantly.
Again great effort but ground up must surely mean leaving the ground putting the kit in then climbing to the top.
Am i missing something?
Am i missing something?
In reply to J. Dunne:
Perhaps, with 4 separate climbers trying the line and falling off repeatedly, they couldn't be bothered to take the gear out after each go?
And if it is going to be done as ground-up I guess you have to have a separate climber ab in and pull the gear for you so as not to spoil your ground-up claim with preinspection of the moves above your highpoint?
Honestly it sounds more like an 80's style Yoyo but with the rope pulled.
Perhaps, with 4 separate climbers trying the line and falling off repeatedly, they couldn't be bothered to take the gear out after each go?
And if it is going to be done as ground-up I guess you have to have a separate climber ab in and pull the gear for you so as not to spoil your ground-up claim with preinspection of the moves above your highpoint?
Honestly it sounds more like an 80's style Yoyo but with the rope pulled.
In reply to J Dunne:
pretty sure that remember seeing you trashing the sheath on a rope on this route years ago...
am I right in recalling this day ?
pretty sure that remember seeing you trashing the sheath on a rope on this route years ago...
am I right in recalling this day ?
In reply to J Dunne: firstly the boy obviously has lots of skill !
but i don,t think you are missing anything !
it would seem we have a......................ground-up with falls ascent of an e9 with pre placed kit !
albeit still very,very impressive but i personally see onsight as the kiddie.
jas
but i don,t think you are missing anything !
it would seem we have a......................ground-up with falls ascent of an e9 with pre placed kit !
albeit still very,very impressive but i personally see onsight as the kiddie.
jas
In reply to peterbull:
Great stuff. I wonder what difference it makes knowing you will not hit the ground? The first and second ascents assumed failure meant death, with the second testing it. A huge psychological barrier I suspect, and knowing otherwise makes an true on-sight impossible surely?
An improvment in 'style' is not necessarily a better ascent. Hats off to JD. Dawes couldn't do it.
Great stuff. I wonder what difference it makes knowing you will not hit the ground? The first and second ascents assumed failure meant death, with the second testing it. A huge psychological barrier I suspect, and knowing otherwise makes an true on-sight impossible surely?
An improvment in 'style' is not necessarily a better ascent. Hats off to JD. Dawes couldn't do it.
The ascent was far from perfect. I left the rope clipped into the gear placed behind the flake after each fall. I have climbed to the flake on lead before. Full ascent details here: www.kevinjorgeson.com/Travels.pdf
And yes, it is a HUGE psychological pillow knowing that you are not going to break something or die when you fall. However, if you dropped it from the slab sequence, I'm not sure how you would fare. Huge amounts of respect to all previous ascentionists, especially John Dunne for the first. Hats off to ya. Amazing route. I can only have nightmares about what it must have been like on those upper moves, NOT KNOWING that the gear was going to hold. Now THAT, is bold.
Thanks,
KJ
And yes, it is a HUGE psychological pillow knowing that you are not going to break something or die when you fall. However, if you dropped it from the slab sequence, I'm not sure how you would fare. Huge amounts of respect to all previous ascentionists, especially John Dunne for the first. Hats off to ya. Amazing route. I can only have nightmares about what it must have been like on those upper moves, NOT KNOWING that the gear was going to hold. Now THAT, is bold.
Thanks,
KJ
In reply to kjorgeson:
a very understated and together reply.
I hope that stops all the people saying " i'm not saying it wasn't any good but..."
Tom Briggs' repeat a couple of weeks ago was applauded - as it should have been - and Kevin does not appear to have claimed the 'ground up' himself so hopefully the sniping will stop now.
a very understated and together reply.
I hope that stops all the people saying " i'm not saying it wasn't any good but..."
Tom Briggs' repeat a couple of weeks ago was applauded - as it should have been - and Kevin does not appear to have claimed the 'ground up' himself so hopefully the sniping will stop now.
In reply to biscuit:
Well done Kevin Jorgeson!
Biscuit:
>hopefully the sniping will stop now
What sniping?
Davie
Well done Kevin Jorgeson!
Biscuit:
>hopefully the sniping will stop now
What sniping?
Davie
In reply to kjorgeson: Well done Kevin. A bloody good effort. Great report by the way. Nicely done as a PDF!
In reply to kjorgeson:
there were a fair few people willing you on, great effort and congratulations my heart was thumping a bit watching you
there were a fair few people willing you on, great effort and congratulations my heart was thumping a bit watching you
In reply to Wee Davie:
just the usual.
people taking the edge off a brilliant ascent with the " yeah but he didn't do it naked and blindfolded did he ? " comments.
Just ticks me off.
just the usual.
people taking the edge off a brilliant ascent with the " yeah but he didn't do it naked and blindfolded did he ? " comments.
Just ticks me off.
In reply to biscuit:
There's also the notion that UKC report accurately and review their News Items for any possible ambiguity prior to "going to press".
In return this may help minimize sniping.
Fantastic effort.
> (In reply to Wee Davie)
>
> just the usual.
>
> people taking the edge off a brilliant ascent with the " yeah but he didn't do it naked and blindfolded did he ? " comments.
>
> Just ticks me off.
>
> just the usual.
>
> people taking the edge off a brilliant ascent with the " yeah but he didn't do it naked and blindfolded did he ? " comments.
>
> Just ticks me off.
There's also the notion that UKC report accurately and review their News Items for any possible ambiguity prior to "going to press".
In return this may help minimize sniping.
Fantastic effort.
In reply to richard kirby:
You leave JD alone. He's only after clarification and here it is......
Oct 24: Kevin Jorgeson - in his own words
by Kevin Jorgeson
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=10&year=2008#n45401
You leave JD alone. He's only after clarification and here it is......
Oct 24: Kevin Jorgeson - in his own words
by Kevin Jorgeson
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=10&year=2008#n45401
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Impressive.
Your awake and on the case
> (In reply to richard kirby)
>
> You leave JD alone. He's only after clarification and here it is......
>
> Oct 24: Kevin Jorgeson - in his own words
> by Kevin Jorgeson
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=10&year=2008#n45401
>
> You leave JD alone. He's only after clarification and here it is......
>
> Oct 24: Kevin Jorgeson - in his own words
> by Kevin Jorgeson
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=10&year=2008#n45401
Impressive.
Your awake and on the case
In reply to peterbull: Awesome effort, really impressive, hope the weather allows you guys to get the most from your visit, keep it up.
Nice one, about time too - we've known all the falls are OK for ages, so this is well over due.
In reply to Dominion:
Not really, everyone and his monkey's seen the video of Seb on itm so we've all lost it. So we all might as well get Tom's beta .
In reply to Dominion:
> This is the E9 that I think is most likely to go for an onsight.
Not really, everyone and his monkey's seen the video of Seb on itm so we've all lost it. So we all might as well get Tom's beta .
In reply to peterbull: Amazing effort! I suspect that flake is going to be getting a fair bit more attention over the next few months.....
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
Funny that. You always say that!
I think it's an amazing effort. Not knowing what is coming next and having to figure out on the sharp end is so hard.
Hats off to not only KJ but to the rest of the guys putting it on the line.
Nutters.
> "This afternoon, after a couple of days, effort Kevin Jorgeson succeeded on what has not been done before - a ground up ascent of a confirmed E9 grit route."
>
> E9 has been done flash/GU before apparantly.
>
> E9 has been done flash/GU before apparantly.
Funny that. You always say that!
I think it's an amazing effort. Not knowing what is coming next and having to figure out on the sharp end is so hard.
Hats off to not only KJ but to the rest of the guys putting it on the line.
Nutters.
In reply to Paz:
I haven't seen the video! Unfortunately, I can't even climb F6c, let alone UK 6c...
> Not really, everyone and his monkey's seen the video of Seb on itm so we've all lost it. So we all might as well get Tom's beta .
I haven't seen the video! Unfortunately, I can't even climb F6c, let alone UK 6c...
In reply to peterbull:
Wo, like totally uber dudes...
Wo, like totally uber dudes...
In reply to Rat know-all:
What's the new skool grade of Parthian Shot?
8a R/X ... if you have the gear placed (5.13b R/X)
8a+ R/X ... if you place the gear (5.13c R/X)
???????????
What's the new skool grade of Parthian Shot?
8a R/X ... if you have the gear placed (5.13b R/X)
8a+ R/X ... if you place the gear (5.13c R/X)
???????????
In reply to andi turner:
That's what you get when rumours about things start. Don't shoot the messenger Andi.
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
> [...]
>
> Funny that. You always say that!
> [...]
>
> Funny that. You always say that!
That's what you get when rumours about things start. Don't shoot the messenger Andi.
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
What be the message Adam?
Care to pass it on in full, comprehensively, rather than doing a superficial 'drive by' forum post.
Mick
> (In reply to andi turner)
> [...]
>
> That's what you get when rumours about things start. Don't shoot the messenger Andi.
> [...]
>
> That's what you get when rumours about things start. Don't shoot the messenger Andi.
What be the message Adam?
Care to pass it on in full, comprehensively, rather than doing a superficial 'drive by' forum post.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
This by any chance?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=03&year=2007#n34585
March 10: 2007: Jordan Buys On Form and Cranking: Onsights E8
by Mick Ryan
Jordan Buys, 25 of Burnley, Lancashire, has made a fine ascent of John Dunne's Carmen Picasso (originally given E9 6c) at the remote moorland crag of Upper Gorple, near Widdop in West Yorkshire (Where's Gorple? click here)
Jordan, originally from Paarl in South Africa, but now a British citizen and a member of the British Bouldering team is no stranger to hard climbing, he's climbed sport 8b and has a fine pedigree of bold gritstone ascents, both repeats and first ascents. He's repeated Dunne's Ilkley testpieces, New Statesman, which Jordan thought E9, and the bold and technical Countdown To Disaster E8 6b, and did the first ascent of Boomerang E8 at Egerton Quarry in Lancashire (Where's Egerton Quarry? click here)
Carmen Picasso has had several repeats by Dave MacLeod, Ben Bransby (flash ascent) and Dave Sutcliffe. Jordan and his wife Naomi walked the 2 miles across moorland to Upper Gorple and when there Naomi abbed the route placing the top wire, a marginal DMM Peenut 2. Jordan then, without having been on the route or seen anyone do the moves, climbed it in one push.
This by any chance?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=03&year=2007#n34585
March 10: 2007: Jordan Buys On Form and Cranking: Onsights E8
by Mick Ryan
Jordan Buys, 25 of Burnley, Lancashire, has made a fine ascent of John Dunne's Carmen Picasso (originally given E9 6c) at the remote moorland crag of Upper Gorple, near Widdop in West Yorkshire (Where's Gorple? click here)
Jordan, originally from Paarl in South Africa, but now a British citizen and a member of the British Bouldering team is no stranger to hard climbing, he's climbed sport 8b and has a fine pedigree of bold gritstone ascents, both repeats and first ascents. He's repeated Dunne's Ilkley testpieces, New Statesman, which Jordan thought E9, and the bold and technical Countdown To Disaster E8 6b, and did the first ascent of Boomerang E8 at Egerton Quarry in Lancashire (Where's Egerton Quarry? click here)
Carmen Picasso has had several repeats by Dave MacLeod, Ben Bransby (flash ascent) and Dave Sutcliffe. Jordan and his wife Naomi walked the 2 miles across moorland to Upper Gorple and when there Naomi abbed the route placing the top wire, a marginal DMM Peenut 2. Jordan then, without having been on the route or seen anyone do the moves, climbed it in one push.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
No Mick, i was referring to Rich Simpsons ascent of The Zone Curbar.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> This by any chance?
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=03&year=2007#n34585
>
> March 10: 2007: Jordan Buys On Form and Cranking: Onsights E8
> by Mick Ryan
>
> Jordan Buys, 25 of Burnley, Lancashire, has made a fine ascent of John Dunne's Carmen Picasso (originally given E9 6c) at the remote moorland crag of Upper Gorple, near Widdop in West Yorkshire (Where's Gorple? click here)
>
> Jordan, originally from Paarl in South Africa, but now a British citizen and a member of the British Bouldering team is no stranger to hard climbing, he's climbed sport 8b and has a fine pedigree of bold gritstone ascents, both repeats and first ascents. He's repeated Dunne's Ilkley testpieces, New Statesman, which Jordan thought E9, and the bold and technical Countdown To Disaster E8 6b, and did the first ascent of Boomerang E8 at Egerton Quarry in Lancashire (Where's Egerton Quarry? click here)
>
> Carmen Picasso has had several repeats by Dave MacLeod, Ben Bransby (flash ascent) and Dave Sutcliffe. Jordan and his wife Naomi walked the 2 miles across moorland to Upper Gorple and when there Naomi abbed the route placing the top wire, a marginal DMM Peenut 2. Jordan then, without having been on the route or seen anyone do the moves, climbed it in one push.
>
> This by any chance?
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=03&year=2007#n34585
>
> March 10: 2007: Jordan Buys On Form and Cranking: Onsights E8
> by Mick Ryan
>
> Jordan Buys, 25 of Burnley, Lancashire, has made a fine ascent of John Dunne's Carmen Picasso (originally given E9 6c) at the remote moorland crag of Upper Gorple, near Widdop in West Yorkshire (Where's Gorple? click here)
>
> Jordan, originally from Paarl in South Africa, but now a British citizen and a member of the British Bouldering team is no stranger to hard climbing, he's climbed sport 8b and has a fine pedigree of bold gritstone ascents, both repeats and first ascents. He's repeated Dunne's Ilkley testpieces, New Statesman, which Jordan thought E9, and the bold and technical Countdown To Disaster E8 6b, and did the first ascent of Boomerang E8 at Egerton Quarry in Lancashire (Where's Egerton Quarry? click here)
>
> Carmen Picasso has had several repeats by Dave MacLeod, Ben Bransby (flash ascent) and Dave Sutcliffe. Jordan and his wife Naomi walked the 2 miles across moorland to Upper Gorple and when there Naomi abbed the route placing the top wire, a marginal DMM Peenut 2. Jordan then, without having been on the route or seen anyone do the moves, climbed it in one push.
No Mick, i was referring to Rich Simpsons ascent of The Zone Curbar.
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
You say that with authority Adam.
Until Richard Simpson categorically states that he climbed The Zone ground-up I'm afraid that so-called rumour is just that.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
> No Mick, i was referring to Rich Simpsons ascent of The Zone Curbar.
> [...]
>
> No Mick, i was referring to Rich Simpsons ascent of The Zone Curbar.
You say that with authority Adam.
Until Richard Simpson categorically states that he climbed The Zone ground-up I'm afraid that so-called rumour is just that.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I agree Mick. Be nice to know though....
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
> [...]
>
> You say that with authority Adam.
>
> Until Richard Simpson categorically states that he climbed The Zone ground-up I'm afraid that so-called rumour is just that.
> [...]
>
> You say that with authority Adam.
>
> Until Richard Simpson categorically states that he climbed The Zone ground-up I'm afraid that so-called rumour is just that.
I agree Mick. Be nice to know though....
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
Richard Simpson is well versed at playing with the climbing community and the climbing media.
And he is not the first.
I'm afraid he has lost a lot of trust with his silly games, despite being a very talented climber and athlete.
You would do well to ignore the 'rumours'.
Mick
Richard Simpson is well versed at playing with the climbing community and the climbing media.
And he is not the first.
I'm afraid he has lost a lot of trust with his silly games, despite being a very talented climber and athlete.
You would do well to ignore the 'rumours'.
Mick
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
I think that rumour was Simpson letting the beer do the talking. Whether it's true or not, he's being a f*cking knob about it. Just downgrade the damn thing. Be done with it.
I think that rumour was Simpson letting the beer do the talking. Whether it's true or not, he's being a f*cking knob about it. Just downgrade the damn thing. Be done with it.
In reply to peterbull:
the photos I took are now here if anyone wants to see them from now on, flickr ones have been deleted.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/author.html?id=588
the photos I took are now here if anyone wants to see them from now on, flickr ones have been deleted.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/author.html?id=588
In reply to Martin Rogers:
> (In reply to peterbull)
>
> also been announced that the flake is "BOMBER"....?
Considering the amount of falls it's taken, perhaps it shouldn't be described as that "shipwreck of a flake" any more. >
> also been announced that the flake is "BOMBER"....?
In reply to Removed User:
were they working equilibrium too?
Loads of ropes around in those pics, but one hell of an effort
were they working equilibrium too?
Loads of ropes around in those pics, but one hell of an effort
In reply to the inspiral carpet: That could apply to any flake with gear behind it. The Parthian Shot flake has consistently been referred to as a flake that will break if fallen on to. It's been fallen on loads of times. It hasn't broken.
In reply to aln:
Yet.
Yet.
In reply to Oli: I love Hard Grit, great film. I think that's where most people heard the flake being described as "that shipwreck of a flake". Surely it was described that way because at the time it was thought that the flake would break if fallen onto more than a few times. Also obviously because it added to the drama of the film. It's been fallen onto lots, it hasn't broken, not a shipwreck, a pretty good flake for protecting big falls.
In reply to the inspiral carpet: Yip, it hasn't broken YET. Can you stop shouting now?
In reply to aln:
In the first lecture of any note I caught while I was at at Cambridge, Seb made the valid point that although apparently everyone in Sheffield thought the `ship wreck'of a flake would never hold, very few of them had actually gone to the trouble of looking at it for themselves before offering their considered opinion on the matter.
In the first lecture of any note I caught while I was at at Cambridge, Seb made the valid point that although apparently everyone in Sheffield thought the `ship wreck'of a flake would never hold, very few of them had actually gone to the trouble of looking at it for themselves before offering their considered opinion on the matter.
An excellent effort by Kevin and good to see these routes being done. The ethics police have no right to pass comment on the style of ascent as the approaches required by an individual to climb routes at that grade are beyond their comprehension.
In reply to Samuel: Having stood bolow PS in awe, anyone who climbs it in on lead gets my respect.
In reply to Richard Bradley:
iy, likewise. Ground up is the best possible style to attempt it as well. Surely ground up is just onsighting, but with falling? Showing you were attempting to onsight it? I don't see how anyone can say any the less of anyone for trying and falling rather than trying and succeeding?
iy, likewise. Ground up is the best possible style to attempt it as well. Surely ground up is just onsighting, but with falling? Showing you were attempting to onsight it? I don't see how anyone can say any the less of anyone for trying and falling rather than trying and succeeding?
In reply to Samuel:
Who are these so-called ethics police?
Any climber has the right to pass comment on the style of ascent, whether it be down the pub, at the crag or on here.
And quite rightly, this ascent has been applauded by the majority, as stylistically it is a step forward for this particular route as Kevin Jorgeson states in our news item,
"While this ascent was far from perfect, I am happy to have improved upon previous styles. The next step is a ground up ascent with all gear being placed on lead! Then, perhaps an onsight? Who knows!
> An excellent effort by Kevin and good to see these routes being done. The ethics police have no right to pass comment on the style of ascent as the approaches required by an individual to climb routes at that grade are beyond their comprehension.
Who are these so-called ethics police?
Any climber has the right to pass comment on the style of ascent, whether it be down the pub, at the crag or on here.
And quite rightly, this ascent has been applauded by the majority, as stylistically it is a step forward for this particular route as Kevin Jorgeson states in our news item,
"While this ascent was far from perfect, I am happy to have improved upon previous styles. The next step is a ground up ascent with all gear being placed on lead! Then, perhaps an onsight? Who knows!
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Any climber has the right to pass comment on the style of ascent, whether it be down the pub, at the crag or on here.
Is it a right ? I assume by that you mean in terms of freedom of speech ?Are all and sundry entitled to spray their views about people they have never met on a climb they may have never seen - things they wouldnt dare say if face-to-face. How about some individual rights ? - for example the right to a bit of privacy to quietly getting on with climbing a hard route without a media circus arounfd the corner.
Celebrity, if not sought, is an assymetric deal - everyone feels entitled to a piece of you just because you are an accomplished climber but the converse doesnt apply. I imagine even those who think being well-known for its own sake is attractive get sick of it in the end.
Not saying this thread is a bad example of this but it is a developing theme re UKCs success/growth in influence in general. With power comes responsibility - or it should.
Is it a right ? I assume by that you mean in terms of freedom of speech ?Are all and sundry entitled to spray their views about people they have never met on a climb they may have never seen - things they wouldnt dare say if face-to-face. How about some individual rights ? - for example the right to a bit of privacy to quietly getting on with climbing a hard route without a media circus arounfd the corner.
Celebrity, if not sought, is an assymetric deal - everyone feels entitled to a piece of you just because you are an accomplished climber but the converse doesnt apply. I imagine even those who think being well-known for its own sake is attractive get sick of it in the end.
Not saying this thread is a bad example of this but it is a developing theme re UKCs success/growth in influence in general. With power comes responsibility - or it should.
In reply to Simon Lee:
Yip, anyone can voice an opinion on an ascent, climbers always have and they always will.
You are out of touch Simon as regards media circus.
That media in the traditional sense is dying...or more correctly has grown and is fragmented. We are all reporters now, and most professional/semi-professional climbers have blogs describing their climbing life almost on a daily basis, which all can comment on. Indeed many enthusiast climbers have their own media. Many climbing companies also have their own media.
But yes, it does present challenges, hence in the case of the UKC forums it is why we have a team of moderators who using our guidelines and their own judgment censor offensive and often intrusive comments. These guidelines are evolving as we learm more, quite often from people like yourself.
Mick
Yip, anyone can voice an opinion on an ascent, climbers always have and they always will.
You are out of touch Simon as regards media circus.
That media in the traditional sense is dying...or more correctly has grown and is fragmented. We are all reporters now, and most professional/semi-professional climbers have blogs describing their climbing life almost on a daily basis, which all can comment on. Indeed many enthusiast climbers have their own media. Many climbing companies also have their own media.
But yes, it does present challenges, hence in the case of the UKC forums it is why we have a team of moderators who using our guidelines and their own judgment censor offensive and often intrusive comments. These guidelines are evolving as we learm more, quite often from people like yourself.
Mick
In reply to Simon Lee:
Of course it's a right. Anyone can pass comment. Whether all comments are worth the same consideration is an entirely different thing.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com) Any climber has the right to pass comment on the style of ascent, whether it be down the pub, at the crag or on here.
>
> Is it a right ? I assume by that you mean in terms of freedom of speech ?Are all and sundry entitled to spray their views about people they have never met on a climb they may have never seen - things they wouldnt dare say if face-to-face.
>
> Is it a right ? I assume by that you mean in terms of freedom of speech ?Are all and sundry entitled to spray their views about people they have never met on a climb they may have never seen - things they wouldnt dare say if face-to-face.
Of course it's a right. Anyone can pass comment. Whether all comments are worth the same consideration is an entirely different thing.
In reply to tony: Of course it's a right. Anyone can pass comment.
A right is a fundamental inherent obviuos ethical entitlement.
Being free/able/legal to do something is not the same as a right (eg spraying on the internet is not a right)
Some rights conflict with others and those same rights are viewed differently in terms of importance by individuals but aklso in line with developments in society ie national security vs imprisonment without charge.
A right is a fundamental inherent obviuos ethical entitlement.
Being free/able/legal to do something is not the same as a right (eg spraying on the internet is not a right)
Some rights conflict with others and those same rights are viewed differently in terms of importance by individuals but aklso in line with developments in society ie national security vs imprisonment without charge.
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