UKC

If the route that you called "the hardest route on grit" gets climbed in an hour and downgraded from E10 to E8, as James Pearson's The Promise has by visiting American Kevin Jorgeson you'd better be quick of the mark with some kind of explanation. Especially as James has based the grade of his new E12, The Walk of LIfe on his previous ascents like The Promise. .....and James delivers

And somebody else has an opinion on another "the hardest route on grit"


Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=10&year=2008#n45412

In reply to John Dunne: I tried Widdop Wall several times a few years ago and couldn't do it. Certainly one of the hardest grit routes I've ever tried.

I'm sure there are loads of nails routes out there though. I've always thought that Captain Invincible was probably pretty tricky - but I've not tried it. No kudos in failing on an old E8 is there!

Has it been repeated? Does anyone know?

What is the hardest route on Grit currently?

Jack

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Interesting

If the grade of one route falls, what happens to the grade of the others that are graded in comparison to it? Do they all collapse like a deck of cards? I was asked that question this morning and I'm not sure of the answer.

Can I refer people to my post on

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=324622&v=1#x4789574

I do believe I was flamed for it.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Thats nonsense, each route is an individual case, its like saying if 3PS is upgraded to E1 all other HVS's should be too. No each case, particularly at the cutting edge, is individual.

In reply to Al Evans:

It maybe nonsense Al, but that is how these routes are graded, by comparison to other routes that a climber has done, and sometimes not done.

It's well documented and quoted/sourced/credited on our News page and on individual top climbers' blogs.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Does a second ascensionist 'downgrade' a route or just propose a new grade for it ?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I understand that Mick, and agreed, you have to start somewhere, but I dont see why one persons opinion of one route makes all the other routes grades 'fall like a pack of cards'?

In reply to Al Evans:

You didn't 8 minutes ago!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I've just said exactly the same as I did 8 mins ago

In reply to Al Evans:

It doesn't. But if their E10 gets done in an hour and downgraded to E8 it does cast some doubt upon the same climbers recently claimed grade of E12.

In reply to Anonymous:

Indeed the e grade has a ceiling, i.e a blank wall with a zero coefficient of friction has a grade, that is the maximum a grade could be, maybe E10 is a good definition of that

In reply to johnj:

Your blank wall doesn't have a grade unless someone climbs it.

In reply to Swig: the point where nobody could climb it ever, if they could pigs would also be able to fly

In reply to johnj:

Utter Rubbish

In reply to Hugh Cottam: why?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: You know i admire anybody who can climb E8 nevermind E10 i will never get anywhere near but the grade of the promise does seem high for a short route. When i stand under Careless Torque i am impressed and i believe that this route is about Font 8a and Ron Fawcett originally graded this E6 7a so i dont see where the other 4 E grades come into this even though Ron may have undergraded and the landing to the promise is nastier. Saying all this James has an impressive track record on grit so should have a feel for E 10 some routes and grades dont make much sense to me and that might not be entirley relevent as i will never get close to doing them but i do admire those that can

In reply to johnj:

Because climbers improve and standards get pushed. So to suggest a grade ceiling is clearly ridiculous. Your system would only work by adjusting every existing climb each tine the latest hardest climb got done.

That's why the grade of extreme developed. Because people got fed up of trying to grade everything HVS.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Personally, I think this report is slightly over exaggerated and that routes have to be assessed on an individual basis.

Its highly unlikely that James has missed an easier sequence on every climb he has put up.

If the grade stands then surely The Groove is the hardest route on grit at its recently proposed grade of E11. IIRC this is actually one of the routes that Jorgeson has tried which contributed to his downgrading of The Promise.

It's great that someone has finally come along to climb these routes and generate some fresh discussion by providing an opinion though. I expect some more hard routes to fall soon.

In reply to Hugh Cottam: But the ceiling is the impossible, going on your logic in 2012 we'll beable to fly

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Finally, The Promise has been exposed for what it really is: A highball boulder problem.

In reply to johnj:

But if you define the impossible now then in 5 years someone will come along and prove you wrong by climbing it and then you'll have to extend the grade scale...

In reply to chris_j_s:

Unfortunately that isn't the case, and would be impossible. All routes are graded in comparison to others. You have to have a reference point.

That is perhaps why we get different opinions on grades because everybody's experience is different.

In reply to johnj: Nobody questions that the limit has not been reached in track and field, why should climbing be different? It even has more ways to go, skill levels, boldness, luck?

In reply to chris j: But they won't because man isn't humanly possible of achieving it, same with everything it has a maximum, simple physics, far from rocket science, to get the best out of the grading system would require maths and engineering boffins to mathematically model it.

In reply to johnj:

So what you're saying is that we should define impossible with a grade and just work up to it.

What a bizarre concept!

Personally I think that in the years to come people like Adam Ondra will clean up and show that climbing and climbers are nowhere near their potential yet, so why try and introduce upper limits.

No one would suggest that french grades should have a ceiling so why impose one on british trad grades

In reply to johnj:
Your idea went out of the window 50 years ago when the Scots finally accepted that it was possible to climb harder than VS. If you set a ceiling on grades, then as standards increase (which history tells us they will do) then you end up with routes of greatly differing standards banded together. Which is exactly whats happed with tech grades and why they are no longer relevant at the higher levels.

No need for anyone to get upset over this - grading is subjective at the best of times. Any grade should be considered unreliable until the route has recieved a number of ascents. Maybe Mr Pearson's new E12 is only E11, or E10. Maybe it will fall down before anyone dares a second ascent. Climbing isn't a sport where it will ever be possible to say "this is the hardest route"

In reply to johnj:

so then you'd just end up with E9, and E9.5, and E9.9, E9.99, E9.9999 and so on. A bit like Warp 10.

Also it doesn't make any sense, how do you know where we are on the scale of possibility? What does it mean to say that something is 9/10 impossible? How do you tell the difference between something only just impossible, and something not quite impossible just very very hard? Come on, climbing doesn't work like that.

In reply to Al Evans: Its exactly the same as the athletics there is an absolute peak to human performance, I've never said these guys have reached it but one day someone will, that has a grade, call it e11 or e one million and elventy seven, all much of a muchness really!

In reply to chris_j_s: simple maths upper and lower limits and differentiate or integrate the curve, if at the first assumption the upper and lower thresholds are found to be out alter the limits and recalculate

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

one thing i noticed about james' report was that kevin used lots of mats on the duel and still he thought it warranted E10. would it be E12 had there been no mats?

Now i'm not taking away the fantastic acheivements of Kevin,but as James pointed out pads make a whole lot of difference. if i'd have had the pads yesterday then i'd have done end of the affair, currently given E8, but had i padded it out with 17 pads would the grade have changed? maybe E5/6?

I think that at the top end of grit climbing it's not as much about the pure difficulty than how safe the route is.

In reply to johnj:

But I haven't seen any climbs on grit yet which have the equivalent of f9a+ climbing therefore man is capable of climbing harder (on grit, which is what this thread is about).

And if you think that man has reached its ultimate potential in terms of hard moves then you are sorely mistaken - IMO, of course!

In reply to plexiglass_nick: It doesnt make sense because you're looking at it from a perception of how hard it feels to be, not from a view scientific of gravity, mass and friction

In reply to chris_j_s:
>

can you point out where i said that please?

In reply to johnj:

you are talking utter b*llocks and you surely know this.

In reply to johnj:

Dudes, take it to freakin email.

In reply to johnj:

And regrade everything each time. Pure genius.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Not wishing to knock Kevin - and a fantastic piece of climbing - but am I wrong in thinking the promise has lasted 2 yrs without a repeat?...at only E8 that seems strange....also Kevin has lots of experience climbing sure but i'd bet a penny to a pound that James' experience on traditionally British graded climbs (particularly on Grit) will massively out weigh Kevins, yet here we all stand happy to accept this potential new grade.

I would have thought that as the route has only had two ascentionists and there is a split vote on grade, the one with the most experience of allocating and climbing within the given grade system would be given slightly more precedence.

and to all the 'highball boulder' comments...is there a reason why you havent done it??

does that reason even matter?

an ill informed (albeit due to the fact that you havent done it) judgement on the route really seems silly. </2p>

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Yes but the Scotish just went on the hardest climbing known to man, not the view of the hardest mankind could ever climb

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Robin Barker repeated it. I was talking to him about it just recently. He reckoned it was F8b climbing, and even fell off after the hard bit, on the Offspring crux, due to being boxed.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

If simple engineering principles are utter bollocks why doesn't every thing fall down?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I don't understand why you want us to do this, why not make us a thread to discuss this

In reply to Tom Briggs: Sounds hard. Would love to give it a bash.

In Reply to misschief09: 'only E8'? - E8's are hard! It is very common for an E8 to not get a repeat for 2 years, or 10 years.

Jack

In reply to Tom Briggs:

Presumably the pegs have deteriorated a bit since then? Has anyone checked them recently?

In reply to Hugh Cottam:


Cheers I have my moments, one day i may even get some time to haul my fat arse up some more v diffs

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Agreed that in many parts of the country that is absolute gospel, however due to the nature of climbing on grit and also the accesibility of headpointing (particularly short routes) and the acceptance of headpoint style i think there will be few E8's like this on Grit which repel second ascentionists for 2yrs plus.....Or am I wrong?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Sounds like these hard routes should be left ungraded until a few repeats are done- a la Dave MacLeod's recent approach?
The sky high grades seem to have a dissuasive effect on anyone attempting them.
Everything reported at the high end seems to come with a tag of 'certain death' and E9+ certainly adds yet another intimidation factor.
It's telling that a high end trad operative like Jack Geldard feels like not attempting certain E8s because it might look bad to fail on one.
Maybe this is slightly tongue in cheek on his part, but does this reticence to want to attempt other climbers hard routes actually exist, and furthermore have a detrimental effect to climbing overall?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.can anyone confirm what the 1 hour statement relates to ?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
firstly i think mr pearson,s track record of extremely difficult onsight bouldering more than qualifies him to ESTIMATE a grade for his first ascent and he can only give a grade from his personal experience on the route.

it is quite apparent that kevin is operating at the highest levels and what is so hard to understand that he PERSONALLY found the climb easier than e10 ?
especially if he found a different sequence on the crux.

is there really any differnce between this and two punter,s debating over a route being hvs or e1 for instance ?

jas

In reply to Tom Briggs:
I saw him do it. I was just strolling past the quarry entrance one day in the weekend. He climbed so smoothly that he made it look easy, and for ages I wondered why no one seemed to try repeating such a compelling line. Didn't linger to see what happened after he reached the Offspring break, but I least I have an answer to my puzzlement ... it's that the moves are nails.

In reply to jas wood:

James is an exceptional boulderer, but two 8B onsights of his have been downgraded: Schule des Lebens from 8B to 8A by Tyler Landman, Great Shark Hunt downgraded to 8A by Desroy and Landman from 8B.


A climb's grade doesn't fluctuate like that, if it did we would have a sliding scale depending how fit/strong/bold the climber is.

Can you imagine what that would be like?

Guidebooks would have to have multiple grades for a route in their descriptions depending how fit/old you are.


That's right, and more to the point, implement a system like that and us punters wouldn't be able to argue whether Three Pebble Slab is HVS, E0 or E1!

......and of course.....

GRADE RULE NUMBER 17: Grade discussion are independent of ability.

E10 leaders argue about grades and discuss them as much as VDiff climbers. In fact probably more so.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


As E10 is proper proper hard and getting to the top of the curve if a route cannot be agreed that it is a full grade harder why not utilize the decimal system

E10 hard as hard stuff
E10.1 hard as hard stuff but even harder
E10.2 something so hard that a EPO fuelled steroid snorting silverback would stuggle to climb
E10.3 I had a dream

etc, etc, etc ;=)

In reply to johnj:

Don't try to change the system John. It's great as it is ; o )

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I'm not trying to change anything, it just appears from the comfort of my armchair that the business of accurate measurement is a little unreliable

Big respect to the boys and girls out there on the super sharp end :+)

In reply to the inspiral carpet: I agree. He did not climb it in as good a style as the original ascent (i.e. without mats) therefore he can't be downgrading it.

I think it's funny though how in the film committed, Dawes says that the promise is the future of british climbing. Now someone is suggesting that it is actually 1 grade lower than Dawes's Indian Face.

Regardless, it's nice for top climbers from around the world to come and enjoy our rock.

In reply to johnj:

.........and that is the nub of our unique grading system: it isn't measured by a watch or a tape measure but by feelings, experiences and opinions.

It has always been like that and it always will be.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Maybe, everything changes sooner or later, it's like how people talk about tradition, it only needs to go back one generation for it to be called a tradition, and the old ways are lost.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


No, but it is not unknown for climbers to get wired into a sequence and miss holds or different ways to do moves. Maginot Line was one, down graded when the heel hook was discovered. Dunne's route at malham (can't remember the name) went from 8B to 7C+. Also Zeke the freak was listed with 2 different grades depending on how you did the crux.

All of this does not mean to say that James Pearson's other routes are easier than the given grades.

Also the boulder problem on sights were climbed and graded by others, and when you on sight something you do not always do it the easiest way so not always easy to be accurate with grades.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


But there is a whole lot less

In reply to miss_chief09:


qoute
and to all the 'highball boulder' comments...is there a reason why you havent done it??

Because i'm not good enough?

qoute
does that reason even matter?

Yes, because it would not be E10 if it was a boulder problem.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
" A climb's grade doesn't fluctuate like that"

the climb will not change i agree but the climbers who climb it can have diffent sequences, thoughts on the pro, even different conditions.
and in my opinion it,ll not settle until a few more people have done the route and we have a concencus.

comments by steve mclure recently hit the nail on the head for me about rhapsody - something like (not quoting) i have no doubt dave graded it correctly given his experience on the route.

jas - is it still snowing over yonder ?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

My reckoning is James is just annoyed his route got downgraded by two grades, this surely questions his personal ability to grade routes?

Im nowhere near climbing anything like E10 or even E8 but i know if i put up a route which then got knocked down by two grades id be quite annoyed and hurt.

In reply to notreallyasquamishlocalcurious:


If I remember correctly, Adam Long reckoned this was worth highball Font 7c the way he did it in Committed.

In reply to clgladiator: Read james' most recent blog post, it clearly illustrates that they each attempted the climb in two separate styles, and hence got very different experiences and came to two differing grades.

In reply to john howard 1: In reply to john howard 1: In reply to john howard 1: Read james' most recent blog post, it clearly illustrates that they each attempted the climb in two separate styles, and hence got very different experiences and came to two differing grades.


Funny I read it and concluded that his misgrading to be that significant would mainly be the result of a duff sequence which would have a bigger impact on the grade - ie a harder move would make it both harder and scarier whereas the mattage/trusting the slider factor of itself would have only made it slightly more scary.He wouldnt have been the first to First Ascentionist to do this as Craig pointed out - Dunne (Maximum) Leach (Cry Freeedom) Pollitt (Chimes). Easily done - didnt it take a visiting Swede to 'discover' the key use of knee on Meshuga ?

In reply to notreallyasquamishlocalcurious:

It wasn't anyway as Ryan P had already flashed End of the Affair.

http://www.freakclimbing.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid...

In reply to miss_chief09:

How many people tried it though....? If people think its E10, then some will be put off from trying it because they'll assume its too hard.

AJM

In reply to clgladiator:
, this surely questions his personal ability to grade routes?

Or the americans ability to grade grit routes correctly???

In reply to johnj:

Your also forgetting that the british grading system is for onsight ascents so wouldn't apply to a theoretical "hardest route possible" Anyway there can never be an upper limit because harder climbers and better technology are going to contiue coming along like they have for years.

In reply to alex_arthur:

However as all the top routes are pre practised, so the onsight grade is only an estimate anyway so you point is kind of void. Of course there is an upper limit, the whole zero friction thing exists therefore whatever technology you apply to the situation the situation remains exactly the same, Human performance on this world one day will have an absolute maximum threshold

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I don't get James Pearson's 'not using pads' bit. Sure it's a massive psychological aid, but so is practicing the moves on a toprope! It seems wilfully to be making the climb harder, a bit like choosing not to place a piece of gear.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: mick, what did the 1 hour time relate to? the lead itself or the amount of total effort working the route and leading it?

In reply to Erik B:

I believe he abbed the route to look at it, then returned another day, then worked it and led it in an hour.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: seems a very short time to spend on it

In reply to Erik B:

I think that is actually the most significant aspect of the ascent, how quick it actually took him.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:



What's the relevance of your (incorrect) statement Mick? He didn't grade those problems. He flashed them (not "onsight") and took the grade proposed by the majority of ascentionists. It's harder to make a judgement on the grade when you flash a problem than when you've spent more time on it. So Tyler's proposed 8A but the majority say 8A+ or 8B. Again, what is the relevance in the context of this discussion? To me it just looks like an ill advised, inaccurate dig.

http://www.8a.nu/?IncPage=http%3A//www.8a.nu/scorecard/AscentList.aspx%3FUs...

Click "All Ascents". Nuff said. Oh and nobody's suggested a downgrade on Ganneymede. Yet.

In reply to seagull:

We have a couple of bouldering articles coming up that include thoughts grade inflation, and other matters, one by Tyler Landman and one by Kevin Avery.

We'll make sure the grades are split Font/V so that you understand.

Keep your eyes peeled on UKClimbing.com Jasper.

In reply to seagull:

Its not often (ever) I defend Mick but he was replying directly to this comment:

firstly i think mr pearson,s track record of extremely difficult onsight bouldering more than qualifies him to ESTIMATE a grade for his first ascent and he can only give a grade from his personal experience on the route.

The relevance being was that if what he thought was ft8b was in fact ft8a+ then this may have contributed to affecting his grade calibration in turn affecting how he graded the Promise which makes it relevant in the context of this discussion particularly as he was replying to a point made in the discussion !

I don't have a view on these 'ifs' and 'buts' but they do not constitute Mick having a dig at Pearsons.

In reply to miss_chief09: You're wrong.

There are lots of E8's on grit that don't get repeats for more than 2 years. There are many that are unrepeated.

Loaded anyone.

Jack

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Hardest route on Grit: Gaskin's thing at Thorn crag, the not-very-well-reported-or known-about V14 mega highball (probably/possibly E11).

Andy F

In reply to seagull:

If by dig you mean investigate, yes I agree I am.

It has been very rare indeed for grades to be questioned in the climbing media, editors and climbing journalists shy away from it. Consequently we have had banner headlines announcing new grades as if they were fact, then subsquently they get down graded.

In the US this happened at least ten times when 5.14a was the barrier to be broken.

It has happened in the UK with the E10 grade at least, and I am sure with other landmark grades.

I've told James that we will ask questions, if you suggest a new grade, these days prepare to be challenged. It isn't personal, but it is very healthy to question grades that are self-certified. A lot of what is being said on here is also being said off here, by several top climbers - no they won't go public. Why?

As a wise man told me yesterday, some climbers have strong emotional attachments to their climbing heroes and their routes. If these heroes and routes are questioned, expect a backlash.

Again, these recent ascents expose flaws in the E-grade system, especially when comparing short gritstone routes/highball boulder problems like The Promise to big, serious, adventerous and sustained routes like The Walk of Life and Echo Wall.......

In reply to andy farnell: Sounds nails Andy - where exactly is that? I've been up there once, thought it was a great crag. Bottled out of doing Shipman's Surgery, which is a top route, even if I didn't top out. I'm keen to go back - so would like to 'look' (with my eyes!) at Gaskins' thing.

What about High Fidelity at Caley too - that's nails and it's high. But it is a new-school boulder problem.

Is Gaskins' route a 'route', or a super-high boulder problem? I think we now have to accept that some of these things that used to be routes, are no longer - perhaps such as Angels Share? Where would The Promise fit in? I guess because it has gear it's a route? But it is pretty small - maybe with 17 bouldering mats it would be a V10?

Jack

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

arete right of Last Temptation

In reply to Simon Lee:

That's an amazing position of trust you're speaking from Simon. Come on, why did Mick pick those two problems to make his point? Because the long list of problems which James has done for which the grade has not been disputed wouldn't have worked. A cheap shot.

If you really want to be pedantic then the original question was about "onsight bouldering". Mick quoted some "facts" about flash ascents. JP's hardest onsight of a boulder problem is Sissyfus 8A+. Dave Graham and Daniel Woods both took 8A+ for this and neither flashed (or onsighted) it.


In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Questions are good. Sloppy inaccurate comments with cherry picked "facts" skewed to make an invalid point are not.

Articles sound interesting I look forward to reading them.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:



Been said before Mick - found this at http://www.aqvi55.dsl.pipex.com/climb/uk_grades.htm :

The dual grading system is in use from multi-pitch Scottish mountain crags to routes that are little more than boulder problems and it is probably fair to say that, at the smaller end of the scale and especially at the higher grades, it doesn’t make a lot of sense. How can you compare something like Breathless on Tophet wall where you can fall three times the total height of a route like Equilibrium at Burbage? Yet they are both given the same grade! I'm equally sure that a fall from either of them is not something to consider lightly. The concept of a “highball” boulder problem as opposed to a short route is relatively new to the UK and it may well be that a new grading system will emerge to sit between the bouldering and the route grading systems.

ALC

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: The Gaskin's thing is up on the main crag somewhere. As I said before it's not very well reported or known about.

High Fidelity is 'just' highball hard 8B

Andy F

In reply to seagull:That's an amazing position of trust you're speaking from Simon.

Yes I do start from a position of trust - for various reasons - and it is amazing - you should try it.

To say the least I am not well versed in high level bouldering but my understanding was that Pearson did some ground-breaking ft8b flashes/onsights that have subsequently been downgraded by others. If I was up against my limit on routes in, say, Kalymnos and came away with a few new flash/O/Sights at a higher grade not knowing that the area is famously overgraded I might presume I had improved and was climbing at a new higher level. If when I came home I then put up a new route in the Peak at this same level I might as a consequence end up overgarding it. If I did then it wouldnt be because I was intentionally 'bigging myself up' but because I was relying on my most recent experiences in arriving at a grade.

In reply to andy farnell:

And there's also the E8 slab at Stanworth, or highball 8B...

Reading the threads on here, I am constantly amazed that there are still people out there who are sure grades must be absolute, and fail to appreciate that they can only be subjectively vague and fuzzy uncertainties.

In reply to johnj:
The impossible must surely be E(infinity), not E10!

In reply to Simon Lee:

Yeah I was being facetious. Sorry.


My point (again) is that this disregards all of JP's other hard bouldering ascents (where there is no grade dispute). Any point can be proven by being economical with the truth. I'll not repeat myself any more, have a look at the 8a.spray link.

In reply to Simon Lee:


Yes you're right, instead of just "different styles", I should have listed the various small differences in their experience of the route- such as trusting the gear, and more importantly the sequence etc. the aim of my slightly rushed and abrupt post was more to try and show to cgladiator(i think?)that James didn't appear to be "annoyed" that a new grade had been suggested, he just pointed out the differences between their ascents, which lead to two different grades.Anyway, back on topic

In reply to seagull:

I agree with you, I dont see the relevance of bringing up the bloc downgrades as James wasnt the person who proposed the original grade.

This is all a bit embarassing for James, but slider's are weird (you can bounce test them in one direction, but they might spin round and pop in an actual fall). And he just used a duff sequence.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
"> (In reply to John Dunne) I tried Widdop Wall several times a few years ago and couldn't do it. Certainly one of the hardest grit routes I've ever tried. "

This shuts down so many people I'm sure I'm not the only who'd love to see or even hear of it being done on top rope.

In reply to Paz:

http://www.kevinjorgeson.com/Travels.pdf

This is the major point. KJ says his sequence was "V8 or V9" and that he couldn't physically do James' sequence. James said the route was 8A so for KJ's sequence to be 7B+ (ish) is a MASSIVE difference.

Forget the gear/pads, this on it's own has to be worth a two E point downgrade. James graded the route correctly for his ascent as KJ points out.

I see no need for embarassment though. These things happen.





I certainly would.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

>Guidebooks would have to have multiple grades for a route in their descriptions depending how fit/old you are.


what a fantastic idea... the older you get the harder you climb ! I like it !



Sorry didn't mean to interupt, just couldn't resist.

In reply to seagull:

>


Exactly!!

And to try and stir up a controversy by mentioning other unrelated routes or problems is just plain wrong.

In reply to ouch:

.....but to be expected.

In reply to andy farnell: I remember reading about this somewhere, it might have been UK bouldering, so why if JG's route not climbed/ talked about.... interesting

In reply to stevieo10:

It would be very interesting indeed to see some of the foreign wads try some of the problems that Gaskins has put up!

i think its called a moment of clarity?

i always feel that mr gaskins doesnt get the credit he deserves (does he want it though, is the other question?)

In reply to ouch: And to try and stir up a controversy by mentioning other unrelated routes or problems is just plain wrong

Arrgghhh. It was a controversy from the point KJ downgraded it.

Based on what KJ and JP have said the misgrading is probably mainly down to JP using a harder sequence than necessary. Probably ! Not definitely !

Pearson quite sensibly lists other factors that might have led to him getting it wrong.

He also might have missed some out.Not throwing in other factors like Mick has which may or may not be wrong or unrelated isnt wrong or unrelated of itself - that's just your opinion. Its part of building a case and testing the alternatives and evidence some of which gets thrown out.

So far we have 2 peoples opinions that are based on direct experience. The route was re-climbed, what, all of 5 minutes ago ?. No doubt others will try. More opinions, more evidence and closer approximations to the truth rather than immediately jumping to a conclusion.

Who knows KJ might have been unusually good at that sort of move and is a numpty in evaluating the hold strength of sliders and it goes back to E10 -unlikely but not impossible - or it settles at E9.

this might be crap but i heard that jordan buys took a ground fall trying to do widdop wall.... i assume he toproped it first?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

KJ has updated his website with a response to some of the points that James raised.

For lovers of all things graded (I include myself!) he says if he had to order the routes he had done so far the list would be thus:

• New Statesman, E9 5.13c/d R
• The Promise, E8 5.13c/d R
• Parthian Shot, E8 5.13b/c R

Interesting that New Statesman has gone from the bottom of the list before KJ climbed it to the top now.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I agree its the most significant aspect, which is why I was querying the time it took.

In reply to samsamsam:

well yeah, but not in one go if I remember correctly. Certainly not on the day he got on lead!

Being on lead sharpens the mind he says. All we learned is:

The move is hard.
The gear rips.

In reply to chris_j_s:

Not really, classic case of Yorkshire grading...

In reply to Removed User:


odd though that statesman was always E8 and parthian E9 FA both by the same man

In reply to the inspiral carpet: Not really. John thought that the gear would rip and he would die if he fell off Parthian Shot. This hasn't happened yet - hence the new E8 grade.

Without that gear it would certainly feel a little harder up there!

In reply to the inspiral carpet: Realistically I think that was down to the unknown quantity that was the flake at the time.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
but statesman E9?

In reply to chris_j_s:

He goes on to say:

I agree that each ascent has its own experience, and mine, relative to what else I have done, was E8. I’m
coming to realize and believe that each ascent, of each individual route, deserves its own E-grade. My
experience was E8. James’ experience was E10. A third ascensionist will have their own experience and so
on.

Statesman has gone to the top of his list. For those with longer arms, it might well be at the bottom.

In reply to the inspiral carpet:

Dunney has since said that in retrospect that he thought Statesman was the first 'E9'.

In reply to the inspiral carpet:


But John didn't give Parthian E9 did he? I thought he had given it HXS.

In reply to Simon Lee:

It's one thing questioning the grade after you've climbed it or even tried it. It's a different thing entirely brining up other unrelated climbs that have no bearing or even tenuous link other than the person had climbed them.

In reply to Tom Briggs:

Jordan told me he though New Statesman E9 also.

In reply to JR:

And Sellers thinks Parthian is E8.

So there you go...

In reply to JR:

Pete Hurley said the same thing.

In reply to Removed User:

I feel so shallow now that no one else thinks its interesting


In reply to Tom Briggs:

Yes it is always an individuals thoughts which determine their suggested grade but surely this is how we reach a concensus.

IMO you can't distance yourself from the debate by saying 'this is my individual experience' because you are laying down a marker which indicates to others whether it is within their abilities or not. So in that sense there's a moral obligation for ascensionists to take responsibility for their grading not just sidestep the issue.

(p.s. don't take the above too seriously - its more just my musings than an arsey response)

In reply to ouch: It's a different thing entirely brining up other unrelated climbs that have no bearing or even tenuous link other than the person had climbed them.


It (arguably) had some bearing with respect to context.

Will you stop forcing me to defend Mick I find it deeply uncomfortable !

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

James Pearson has over graded his route. By a lot. He even stated that it is "the hardest route on gritstone".

It now turns out that Dunnies routes from the 80's are harder.

A lot of people who walked up to the base of 'The Promise' said "that's not E10". I certainly did. Whether the V grade is V9 or V11, it's never E10 - it's 7 metres high.

A lot of people have said the same about The Groove. E10 was pushing it, now he's saying E11. That's got to be a joke, right?

E9 7b, we would have given him. But E11?

As for the Walk of Life - who knows. It's obviously hard, and dangerous, but E12 is a big number James. People will go and try this route. They will go and try it and they will comment.

What will they say? E12 or E10? Who knows. 2 grades is a lot to be out by, especially when each E grade is such a wide grade. You wouldn't give Telli E5 would you?

And this is important as these are regarded as world record ascents. The Walk of Life was reported as the world's hardest trad route. That's a big accolade. That is different from getting an E4 mixed up with an E3...

Learn from the climbing community James. Be conservative. Don't believe your own hype. Try a few of the 80's hard routes in good style. Take it easy and enjoy being a North Face Athlete. They don't care if it's E10 or E12, they just want to sell more coats.

VofT

In reply to Voice of Truth:

I'm not going to lay into James because I don't think thats entirely necessary but I would say that in relation to your comments I thought that Pete Whittaker was a model of restraint when he climbed Dynamics of Change and graded it E9 7a earlier this year.

Who would have stepped up and complained if he'd suggested E10 - that high step and rockover photo sequence on hotaches blog made me feel physically sick!!

In reply to Voice of Truth: end of discussion, couldn't have put it better myself. : )

In reply to Voice of Truth:


No, but you might give it E1

Register Users only on this one please from now on.

Alan

In reply to Jon Read:


Indeed the ways of measuring the grade is tremendously abstract and fuzzy as the only way of measuring is by the feelings and discussions of the top end guys at the peak of thier climbing prowess, this doesn't take away from the fact that the sequence of moves had a absoulte technical mesurement, what is not possibile is the definition of this by any type of measuring devices.

Look at radio frequencies you could put a system in place to send a signal and receive it somewhere else, and the measurement of that is by a frequency or call it a grade.

The E grade has a tremendous amount of data, if you were to get PHD level maths guys together to mathematically model all available data of the E grade it would be possible to define the pure technical aspects of the mechanics of climbing at a given grade or bandwidth to give the grading system using the original numbers an optimum level of accuracy

Mick if you'd like us to take this to another thread please advise.

In reply to Jon Read:

True, but you must remember the early days in your climbing career when ticking the next grade up only counted when you had a guidebook that agreed with the grade. It didn't matter if you had done an utterly desperate E2, you could only count yourself as having led an E3 when you had the printed evidence (even if it had been a relative path compared to the desperate E2).

It was only when I started writing guidebooks that I realised how arbitrary it was. That is of course where the abuse of the system began since the only way I was ever able to claim an E6 lead was by grading the routes E6 myself! Luckily subsequent guidebook writers have been taken in by this ruse so that now I have third party printed evidence to support my claim!

Alan

In reply to johnj:

Indeed. Also, a lot of people seem to think that there are definite steps between each grade so believe that a hard E2 is much easier than a soft E3 when in reality the two grades could be swapped around depending on how you feel on the day or whether the style of climbing on one suits you more than the other.

ALC

In reply to johnj:

You'd have to figure in the climber too. Different people find different moves differently hard because they are different shapes.

In reply to Voice of Truth:

It may not have been E10 to begin with, but using 2 decent size pads would certainly knock a 7m high grit route down a peg or two.

In reply to anonymouse:

Yeah for sure, assumptions and variables

In reply to Alan James - UKC: It was only when I started writing guidebooks that I realised how arbitrary it was


Joking apart and before we start chucking the baby out with the bathwater...Jon said that grades were subjective and uncertain which is one thing but to say they are arbitrary is another. Grades do have meaning but they are as Jon points out are not absolute. So within the overall subjective parameters and limitations of grading systems you can strive to as objective as possible (consensus helps) which whilst never definitive is not so futile as to not be worth the effort. Some grading systems have fuzzier and wider parameters than others....

In reply to Voice of Truth: Would give you more credit if you came out and stated who you are.

The conservative thing is why 6c is about 3 tech grades wide. Not saying that some of your points could be right by the way.

In reply to Richard Bradley: personally I'm giving the Voice credit for sense

A quote from a quote (credit to Freakclimbing) that as Mr Lee says gives context

"I see Monk life as a bottom end 8b+, only just scraping into the grade. It's a bit harder than some things I've done like The Ace which get 8b. I think in Britain we have a harsher scale than in Europe and there's loads of room in 8b+ for absolutely sick things which are harder than Monk Life. I can't see any reason to give anything 8c. That grade is unbelievable and I struggle to believe anyone around can climb it. We've got to be sensible about these things.") What did motivate your words?
I just think that in Britain there is a slightly different scale, and a lot of climbers are really reluctant to grade really hard staff anything higher than 8B. They tend to be quite conservative in grading. I think that it is a totally different scale in grading perhaps. It seems than in Europe people are more ready to grade hard staff 8B+ or 8C. Just two different scales basically.

I'm guessing Malc is somebody who would probably find the routes discussed straighforward on a top rope and has probably as much experiance of 8ab or + bouldering as anyone. Malc appears to be saying that only Gaskins 8c are likely to exist as he took one session to nail Monks life. if the top end of a grading is nonsense then everything a rung or 2 down is, in my view, in trouble.

Also reminded of a grimer article where he describes being concerned that some knarly yank was going to come over and demolish "hard grit". in the article the poor sod damaged his ankle and it rained a lot, these lads seem to luckier...

In reply to alasdair19: I don't see that they are demolishing hard grit and doubt they see it that way either. Have they done anything that hasn't been done before on this trip? The fact that they have made some excellent repeat climbs in a short period in good style is only to be expected when very good climbers come over here. Surely they wish to fit as much as possible into their trip? Just wish it happened more often!

Also, Im not saying that Voice is all together wrong, just that he should come out from under the cover of annon.

In reply to notreallyasquamishlocalxxxyyy:

I think the fuss is really due to James' ploclaimation that this was the hardest route on grit, the culmination of all his climbing acheivements etc., etc. and how this leaves his reputation with regards to his other recent ascents (The Groove, Walk of Life)

Didn't realise DM had downgraded Blind Vision but I knew he downgraded Divided Years to E8 (not on grit, I know).

In reply to chris_j_s: Now you are just talking to yourself!

In reply to alasdair19:

Perhaps they are just after greater definition rather than packing things into one grade?

In reply to Richard Bradley:

Sorry for my wittering...

I'll leave you in peace!

*crawls back into his cupboard*

So what is the hardest route on grit?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Widdop Wall?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Probably one that hasn't been done yet!

In reply to Alastair Lee:

Never heard of it.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Apparently some punter called John Dunne first climbed it back in the 90's (1998). Its repelled all subsequent lead attempts; Jordan Buys fell off the top rock-over move on a lead attempt and decked out. Lucky old (young) Jordan got away with a cut on his head, he did have four spotters though, I don't know how that effects the grade had he done it... I believe Ian Vickers also went for the lead but traversed off at half height..

In reply to Alastair Lee:

So it's just a boulder problem then?

How many pads? What brand and model please - and foam thickness if you have that data available.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: One and he missed it.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Is John the only climber not to have fallen on to the flake?

In reply to Alastair Lee:

Very lucky. And in all honesty, the spotters got out of the bloody way! It was the popped gear hitting him in the head at warp speed which cut him.

In reply to craig d:

no, i havent fallen on the flake

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


In reply to petestack:


Yeah I'd prefer the hardest routes to be ones which definitely HAVE been done. Doesn't always work like that though does it?

In reply to craig d:

Yes, but he had the benefit of a top rope set up round the corner to rescue him easily if he wanted to bail.

A bit dubious with hindsight perhaps but he did think it was E10 and that the gear wouldn't hold like - you might use that precaution if you were soloing it.

In reply to Paz:Yes, but he had the benefit of a top rope set up round the corner to rescue him easily if he wanted to bail.


Where did you pick that up from ?

In reply to IainWhitehouse:

This could be an answer to grading until a few repeats and the grade settles down, Hard XS or Hard E'X' for unverified cutting edge routes.

In reply to Simon Lee: i've heard he was rescued from the top part a coupe of times, i.e. prior to the move to the pocket I imagine

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I personally like the old Fawcett grading system

Easy,tha knows and terminal youth

In reply to Al Evans:

Who the hell's going to be psyched to climb a HXS? Just give it E8 or E9 or E10

In reply to Simon Lee:

Crag talk and gossip, I guess. Can't remember who I heard it from first. Can't you see it in the photos John shows in some of his lectures of the FA?

In reply to seagull:

Not sure quite what you're implying there (sounds like routes falsely claimed?), but can assure you there was no such cynical intent to my own post.

In reply to Paz: so is it all about the grade?

New Statesman - best line on grit!? Don't think it would matter if it was E1-E??? for me....

In reply to north country boy:

Is that your chalk that's been on it lately?

In reply to Adam Lincoln: Nope. Not been up yet, maybe next weekend

In reply to north country boy:

might call up there next weekend if you're going up, let me know?

In reply to craig d:
This would be true if they were in fact on sights, but the thing is, they were flashes which makes a huge difference. I'm positive James knew exactly how to do these problems. It's still a great achievement though.

In reply to craig d:


2008/10/28
POSTED BY: Tyler Landman
AMBER + MORE

"I made quick ascents of classic 8As such as, Salamandre, Marilyn Monroe, Frogger and Terranova in Brione. The Great Shark Hunt, Komilator and Serre Moi Fort in Chironico. In Cresciano I did La boule and Extreme Ironing 8A+ at night, in an attempt to avoid the warmth, although the evenings turned out just as bad. I also flashed a problem graded 8B called Schule Des Lebens in Chironico, although I felt 8A to be more appropriate. "

http://www.moonclimbing.com/Moonblog.aspx

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
V14 is harder than font 8B right? V14 is Font 8B+?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
How about Equilibrium?

In reply to james oswald:

It hasn't had a proper ascent yet, according to Neil Dickson who says that only onsight/ground-up ascents count.

Get on it James.

What a load of rubbish.....is he on crack?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: according to Neil Dickson who says that only onsight/ground-up ascents count

I find it difficult to believe that he said that, and if he did then there is some extra context you have taken it out of. He claimed Quetzcotl which wasnt onsight. I happen to know he is not an idiot - he's a Led Zep fan - proof if ever was needed.

In reply to Simon Lee: On this musically basis Simon, it woudl make the first ascentionist an idiot! ; )

In reply to Simon Lee:

want the transcript.... it is just his opinion ... no real rules in climbing .. unless

In reply to north country boy:

No idea but I doubt it.

Respect the opinion of others, then state your case.

Climbing isn't an organised sport.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: want the transcript

Yes - can you email it.

In reply to Simon Lee:

Just buy the DVD.

In reply to Simon Lee:
Basically he says "it hasn't had a proper ascent until it has been onsighted".
I disagree.

In reply to james oswald:

But you have to say why you disagree,

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I thought you meant it was a forthcoming article/interview which is what I assume you meant given that you offered to provide a transcript . Why didnt you just say it was on the Onsight video - I havent seen thids film along with most.

It still doesnt prove that you havent taken what he said out of context, misquoted him or the film has edited what he said out of context. He has talked about respecting Redhead's ascents in your ukc article. These routes were abbed first and and some moves practised. If these routes don't 'count' then the onsight/ground-up backlash is already overcooked.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
As while not as pure a form an ascent as ground up or onsight it is still lead and therefore climbed. But obviously i agree that onsight is still a better form of ascent.

In reply to james oswald:

I think many will agree with that.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: There is no such thing as a 'proper' ascent. However you could say there is potential for an ascentin 'better style' (i.e. in this case a flash/OS/Ground Up ascent)

However this is a rather negative/degrading view of how routes were done originally.....and takes a lot of credit away from the first ascentionist....

How are standards pushed on a pure difficulty level without prior practice? These routes are cutting edge but standards move on and others are created....

His views seem very hypocritical considering he has headpointed routes and I know Neil redpoints sport routes, so do his views stretch into sport climbing?

Its a rather brash and foolish statement in my opinion,

In reply to north country boy: Its a rather brash and foolish statement in my opinion,


Assuming Mick is correctly representing Neil's view, which is a big if, I agree

In reply to north country boy:

Interesting concept though, I'm sure you can agree, and maybe the answer to the big grading debate.

If you do a first ascent you can only give that route an E - grade if you climbed that first ascent if you did it ground up/onsight. After all E grades are for onsight ascents.... so we are told.

That would get rid of the hypothetical E onsight grade.

If you top roped the route then led the first ascent (a headpoint) perhaps you are better giving the route a top rope rope sport grade followed by a fall rating: R, R/X or X.... then if someone does it onsight/ground-up they have the right to assign an E - grade to the route.

I think that makes sense.

What do you think?

Mick

In reply to north country boy:

Maybe.

But some ascents are better than others. We can all agree that an onsight is the best ascent, that much is clear. Followed by variation on a ground up ascent, then headpoint and last of all top rope (tope rope is part of the headpoint process).

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Obviously some styles are better than others. However, it is one thing to say one style is superior to another and another arrogant thing to say an ascent using a less superior style doesnt count as an ascent at all. Even an aided ascent counts as an aided ascent. To say that because you have abbed a route to check placements in advance means that your subsequent flashed ascent of a route doesnt count is absurd. It would be a better style than a ground-up siege for example.

This is what you are saying Neil's view is this and I dont believe he would think that.

In reply to Simon Lee:


Listen to the DVD. Then get back to us.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Get stuffed. You quoted him. You listen to the video. Make sure you've got your facts right and get back to us.

In reply to Simon Lee:

Settle down now Simon .

No one has actually quoted Neil, both myself and James Oswald have paraphrased him.

If you want the actual quote simply wach the DVD. If I have time I might do it for you tomorrow.

And it is only an opinion, there are lots of those about.... quite a spectrum of them.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: His arguement has nothing to do with the grade.......

Its about 'style'.....whether it is HVS or E11 it makes no difference, you stated that he said anything other than onsight/flash/ground up is not a 'proper ascent', the grade should have no bearing on this.

Are you just trying to start a debate about something away from the original point?

My first post sums up my original answer to the original question posed.