UKC

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: effort

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: awesome, palms are sweating!

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

The look on his face ( i think maybe just as the sloper is crumbling ) is amazing, just before he starts the " Oh my God " bit.

Great climbing, real balls out stuff, and brilliantly captured on film.

I don't think i've seen a bit of film really capture 'that' moment before.

Well done to everyone involved.

Awesome, an amazing effort well filmed, really appreciate you guys posting this, cheers!

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Great Effort Mr Buys!!!

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Couldn't help but hold my breath when watching that... superb.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Nice work, but I reckon he could have gotten a little more chalk on the holds if he'd tried harder.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Tanfastic.... great video. Well done that man....

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Awesome!
Got that rope abit caught on his leg though.
Would placing the gear have been difficult on this ascent?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

So has he upped his grade proposal from the E8 of the first report?

In reply to james oswald:

Not sure what happened with the gear, it says pre-placed on the vid, but the plan previously was to climb up, place it, and reverse to the ground. It's possible the gear arrangement in the video precluded that because I remember it being four cams - no nuts involved.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Can we assume UKC are playing devils advocate in the reporting of this route?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Hows crumbly is the break with the four bits of gear in? Looks like the kit on Jetrunner at Bamford.
Obviously very hard moves. good effort.

In reply to aln:

Can you explain exactly what you mean rather than doing these drive-by posts.

Be specific. You have said not E9 and now accuse UKClimbing.com of "playing devils advocate".

Put up, or shut up!

Mick

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Good effort and a good vid.

Is it E8 or E9 though?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=327218

Also, is the blank wall to the right of this arete with the green streak on it climbable. I have often wondered.

In reply to Jon Dittman:

He initially proposed E8 ... then after thought and talking to others retro-proposed E9.

This has happened with James Pearson's The Groove which has been retro-proposed at E11.

Of course, that 'proposed' means nothing - as until someone suggests otherwise those proposed grades are set in stone by the climbing media and then most of the climbing community.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Cool - what do you reckon to the wall right of this arete? Or is this in the same league as the wall to the left of New Statesman?

In reply to Jon Dittman:

Jordan and company would have to answer that question.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Bloody impressive ascent, superbly filmed well done Jordan Buy's

In reply to boothy:
>Looks like the kit on Jetrunner at Bamford.

Which ripped without even starting the stitching on a screamer when i fell off jetrunner!

In reply to Daniel Armitage: the gear on Jet Runner is bomber. having said that, the first time i did it I soloed the bottom bit. Still, all the RPs you want!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Apre-posed surely

In reply to Franco Cookson:

So you've taken fall like Dan has and the gear worked? Or are you just talking cack again Franco?

In reply to TobyA: you don't have to have taken a fall on something to know the gear is bomber? what are you bablin' on about?

In reply to Franco Cookson: There's many a 'bomber' wire ripped when people have lobbed onto them. But I guess with your limited climbing experience you wouldn't know that...

Andy F

In reply to Franco Cookson: Surely the fact that it ripped out counts as evidence to the contrary?

In reply to Franco Cookson: Franco, read what Dan wrote and the you'll look less silly. Of course it may be that Daniel is the most incompetent gear placer in the world but looking at his logbook I really do doubt it. Whilst on the other hand you have developed the rep of spouting off all sorts of ummm... 'unusual' statements and positions.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

First off before I give Franco a hard time, congrats to JB. The route looks awesome.

Now for the attention of Franco:

How come your not slagging Jordan off for ruining the route for ever by giving it a grade, or for head-pointing not on sighting, or more of the general BS you normally come out with?

Have you finally woke up and seen sense or is he a mate of yours?

In reply to aln:








<tumbleweed>

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I didn't say "not E9". Are you referring to my post on the earlier thread about this route where I replied to Naomi Buys? She said "French Duke is E9 for sure" , I meant it isn't "E9 for sure". As pointed out by yourself and many other commentators, discussed in magazines, and on here, grades given to high end climbs are far from being "for sure". French Duke wasn't onsighted and as far as I know hasn't been repeated, again, far away from being "E9 for sure".
As for the devils advocate comment, "accused" (I said assume, I didn't accuse) seems to be a strong word to use, do you feel guilty? With the recent furore over grade inflation, headpointing etc. and the accusations levelled at the media about their involvement in it I found it odd that you happily reported an unrepeated headpointed route climbed with pre-placed gear as E8, then E9, with no comment. Given the level headed and so far seemingly unbiased editorial on the subject on this site I thought it seemed reasonable to think you weren't jumping on the big number bandwagon.

In reply to aln:

Thanks aln.

The jury is out on whether E is for onsight. Steve McClure doesn't think so. I'll have to find the quote.

We did say in the original news report that,

"At Earl Crag on Saturday, Jordan Buys from Burnley, made the first headpoint ascent of one of Yorkshire's last great lines."

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=11&year=2008#n45420

Jordon has clarified that it is Font 7C+ ... looks Yorkshire P3 -- or R/X --- injury if you do fall..

So if you want Font 7C+ P3

As the video and news reports state, Jordan has been very honest as to the style in which this route was done - a matt at the base, pre-placed gear, 10 sessions of practice.

Fairly full disclosure I think. An check the other news thread,

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=327218

Even Jordan tongue in cheek said,

"Yea you are not far off there Jack, not pumpy in the least, just tricky so can only say Font 7c+ish.Would love someone to repeat it, its good fun... Also E9 makes me feel manlier too."

Naomi Buys also said

"Just to clarify this - Jordan originally graded this E8 for two reasons:
1) He hasn't acutally climbed an E9 before (unless you count New Statesman being upgraded)
2) IF the gear at half height held, you MIGHT not hit the floor...

So in hindsight Jordan realised that none of the other routes he has climbed/repeated before have taken even remotely that much time or effort (about 10 days), so this route definitely is harder and scarier than all the E8's he has climbed. Also, the gear is pretty marginal really. Plus, bearing in mind that loads of excellent climbers have tried the line and not been able to lead it, the general consensus is that French Duke is E9 for sure."

I think that is all we have..... which is lot more than we used to have in the 80/90's when we didn't get full disclosure.

Mick

In reply to @ndyM@rsh@ll:

All it proves is that he didn't place the gear correctly. Nothing against him, my gear placement isn't that good, we all occasionally don't place all the gear we should or in the right way. you could deck out from London wall, doesn't mean the gear isn't bomber, just that you didn't place it right.

In reply to craig d:

Cause it is still hard climbing and a good effort. He may have done it in not the best style, but it's still an achievement. Like i said about JD and Indian Face, massive respect, but the route is now very different and changed for ever.



I was not wholey serious with previous statements.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
He is indeed Jerry Moffatt, except slightly less nasal.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: That film's weird, from the belayers point of view it looks like a highball boulder problem. From the other shots it looks like a route. ?

In reply to aln:

I've just watched it again and at no point does it look like a highball boulder problem.

In reply to Serpico: nah, it does from below. A proper sketchy one like.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

not a chance, take a good look at it just before he gets the sketchy sloper

In reply to Franco Cookson:

What you mean is it's a good effort BUT the route is now very different and changed forever.

At least be consistent or I will start to think you are female.

In reply to Serpico: From the shot with the belayer in it the route looks to be about 20ft.

In reply to craig d: that's what I wrote isn't it?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Sorry, i was not very clear. My comment referred to what you wrote earlier about French Duke not IF, which is why I was asking you to be consistent.

In reply to aln:

looks to be about 35ft to me

In reply to TobyA:

I fell off Jetrunner on a repeat ascent whilst trying to onsight Salmon LH and the gear was fine/held.

J

In reply to Ropeboy:

I like your slash which seems to accept that the two concepts aren't necessarily the same thing!

In reply to TobyA:

I think Jordan's statement sums it up

"Yea you are not far off there Jack, not pumpy in the least, just tricky so can only say Font 7c+ish.Would love someone to repeat it, its good fun... Also E9 makes me feel manlier too."

He knows the E grade is bollox, but seeing as it the system we have and the people need, want, require an E - grade, well, he'll play..... but it is meaningless here...

All you need is the Font grade..... Font 7C+ .... and quite clearly if you fall off near the gear you'll be OK (if it holds) --- higher up at the hard bit, you'll deck .... it's not massively high ... you might be OK ... but it will hurt .... you might break bones .... you just may be really unlucky and die --- make sure you have it wired.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Maybe Dan Varian and Ned Feehally will turn it into a boulder problem!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Unlikely, the mat used in JB's ascent was to protect against a rock that you might hit if you swung in on a rope. Without a rope you'd go straight down the hill, which would be difficult to mat.
Despite the views of people on here who have never actually seen the route, the length of the climbing makes it more than a highball boulder problem, add in the ground sloping away rapidly from the base and the potential fall length is not insignificant.

In reply to Serpico:

That could actually be an advantage.... well padded ..... you hit the pads (OK mats) .... and slide down the hill ..... like on a sledge.

Impact would also be absorbed. I bet somebody goes for it.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

We discussed that because that same scenario saved me from potentially serious damage in a fall a couple of years ago, but nobody was keen to try it on the day. Also this hill isn't quite as steep, which is what you want for that to work.

In reply to Serpico:

There's another way too.

You dig a big pit and layer mats over it.

Just kidding.

But not quite, have done that with pads suspended over boulders - a great crumple crash zone.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

WHat a wicked film - well done to Jordan and the film-makers (that sounds a bit like the name for a band?!)

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

sounds like a challenge to me

In reply to Daniel Armitage:

First of all: Hi Daniel!!!

Everyone, I happen to know Dan is very good at placing gear. He is not very small though, maybe that is why it ripped!

The gear on Jetrunner is sort of opposed and actually fairly bomber in my opinion but even good gear can rip. On French Duke the gear is less good, sort of wedged between crystals, and it is also smaller than it appears on the video. Having said that, there are a lot of pieces to spread the force. Would it hold or not? No one can be sure until some one takes the fall.

So please, someone go and repeat this route!!

Then we can have a consensus on the grade too.

Also, would be very interesting to see if it could be onsighted - I don't reckon it will be a good candidate for "ground-upping" as a long period of convalescence in hospital may be required between attempts!!! But we won't know unless someone is brave enough to try...

Naomi

In reply to Naomi Buys:



Now then Naomi - If this route was E8 John Dunne would have claimed it, I mean climbed it years ago.

He didn't, hence it is E9 - and that's official.

Bring on the Yanks - Where's Jorgeson and Honnold!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Very good Mick. No idea what you mean if course.

If this route was E8 John Dunne would have claimed it, I mean climbed it years ago.


I couldn't agree more. A little bird told me that this is precisely John's own opinion of French Duke....

And I believe the Yanks are climbing with John this week?

I reckon they should add French Duke to their ticklist, along with Widdop Wall please!!

Also for the record, the wall to the right of FD is very futuristic. I know a lot of folks have asked about this line. Jordan has had a brief look but doesn't think it is possible for him. Maybe a really tall person could find a possible sequence - how about Ryan? Very dangerous though.

In reply to Naomi Buys: Hi Nao!

Yeah... the microwire which was my main gear came out flat, i.e no taper, kept it as a memorial!

Didn't want get involved anymore in the Jetrunner discussion as i think its been done to death!

Fantastic effort by Monkey Man, talented little fella!

(subliminal messaging in a mysterious voice) "ice climbing, in norway, hmmm, thats where its at.... ice climbing hmmm..."

Dan.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
REAL GRADE WILL COME WITH OUT PRE-PLACED GEAR AND DEFO NO MAT > Film maker Alastair Lee was on hand to capture the ascent.

In reply to TONYK:

think your caps lock is stuck Tony!

In reply to the inspiral carpet:Thanks, and you didn't use caps at start of sentence.

In reply to TONYK:

tip. if you use caps people think you're shouting :0)

In reply to the inspiral carpet: Thanks am new to site and etiqutte

In reply to TONYK: no worries, enjoy :0)

In reply to TONYK:

It's there to be down-graded, get to it.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Clearly a fantastic bit of climbing but I'm not a fan of the style at all. Are there any other cases of a traditionally protected first ascent entirely on preplaced gear that have "counted" for want of a better word? The only one I know of is "Rodney Mullen" in the Rocky Valley in Ilkley which is mentioned as a project in Yorkshrie Grit along with a suggested sport grade of 8c+, it is not regarded as being a route until it has recieved an ascent on leader placed pro, or at least that is the impression I got from Yorkshrie Grit. It makes no difference to me, I'm hardly likely to be at the sharp end on anything like this for quite some time if ever but I'm curious about this.

In reply to AlistairB: Just to clarify, the marginal gear in the slot was placed on abseil, the cams below it were placed on lead. The gear could have been stripped out and re-placed on lead but Jordan thought it pretty pointless as the climbing is really easy around there (F6b+) and was desperate to get on with the lead before conditions/motivation deteriorated. The other thing that's not clear in the video is that the gear wasn't pre-clipped, he climbed up clipped it, climbed back down, got psyched, then fired on through...

In reply to AlistairB:

Yes lots of them.

Even when gear is placed on many headpoint ascents, the gear is racked up individually and in order, and placing the gear has been well practiced.

Quite often even "falls" are practiced .... on a top rope and ropes marked with tape so that just the right amount of rope is payed out.

In reply to tom bre:

What number do we phone to get the Apostrophe Police?

In reply to TONYK:
It is a valid ascent, worthy of an E grade - have you ever been there when someone has climbed a new route, even headpoint? It is not a formality by any means. Bear in mind that over the 10 days that Jordan had been trying this route he was rained off on 9 of them! He only linked the moves on top rope ONCE, just before he went for the lead, he had to just get it done before the weather window closed. He has been completely honest about his style of ascent. It is there to be improved upon.

MOST new routes at this level are done headpoint by the way, just so you know. You don't know how possible a route is until it has a grade and/or description - the first ascentionist doesn't have those markers, that's why people end up abbing/toproping lines first. After that, it is much more assessable for a potential on-sighter. Get to it TonyK!!

Oh, and by the way, why would anybody NOT place a mat over a jutting rock on the trajectory of a massive potential swing on the lead?? He didn't turn it into a bouncy castle, and it definitely was not a boulder problem finish. He was only saying that the crux section was comparable to a boulder problem in length and difficulty, not height above the ground!

I suggest you go and look at the route before making comments like this.

In reply to Naomi Buys:

Agreed. I think that through the reporting on here and the video of the ascent, Jordan has made a particular effort to be completely honest about the style of his ascent and I think that it's pretty poor for those not capable of improving on his style ascent to sit here and criticise.

In reply to TONYK:
AND DEFO NO MAT >

What is it with the mat thing? Mats are a legitimate bit of gear. Using one can protect the start of a route just as it can protect a boulder problem. It does not necessarily change a route into a boulder problem. Where a route start or route can be protected or made safer with a mat, then not using a mat to increase the claimed E number is artificial.

In reply to Richard Bradley:

Not in my book, normally the FA is done and graded without mats as history dictates. Subsequently using a mat decreases the E-grade.

I'm not sure if any/many FA's have been lead with mats and gear? I always thought the use of mats for routes was cheating (for us humble punters anyway....) No doubt different rules are applied in the stratosphere.

Whatever, it's a fine effort on a LGP. Kudos.

In reply to 220bpm:


Er, have you watched Hard Grit...

All this 'history dictates' crap is utter tripe.

If you can use a mat to save yourself from a bone breaking (at best) swing into rocks at the base of a route then you owe it to everyone you care about to do it.

I am definitely of the impression that people DON'T want to die if they can help it. How stupid would it be to jeoporadise that just because one or two peoples idea of how it should be done is weird or downright selfish.

Why don't you put yourself in front of that fall potential and then see how you feel about a mat!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:



Why didn't the news article make this clear then, by referring to the previous report. It could even appear to be a different route (i.e. a second new one).

the first one was like: E8, font 7c/+. Old school and understated, to which my reaction would be: nice one Jordan, pat on the back.

The new one's like: Ooh f*ck me, there's a video out, it's E9 now, definitely font 7c+ to boot, and all of a sudden Jordan's got two sponsors.

Just how did you think this would come across to us, the punters, like?

In reply to Paz: Thanks for the feedback Paz. Your thoughts are always illuminating.

In reply to no-one in particular: Great effort to Jordan, superb looking route. And super good effort to Al Lee for filming (with Adam Lincoln too) and then getting this up ready for us just 4 days after the ascent. Thanks Al, real cutting edge stuff.

Great that the news item and then following video are linked to the forums too, so that the story unfolds nicely, like the change of proposed grade from E8 to E9, and to get Jordan's, absolutely spot on, comment about feeling more manly - I love it. Best to keep all these things light hearted, and climbing is about fun isn't it?!

Great to see climbers, film makers and UKC users like Adam Lincoln (who actually wrote the first report) all working together.

I'm excited to see how the whole video thing progresses on UKC as the site continues to grow.

I was dead pleased with how this report (then video) all came about and hope we can continue in this trend.

Cheers,

Jack

In reply to chris_j_s:

Once, many moons ago.
Says you. I happen to be a bit of a traditionalist.

Self righteous bollocks. Nobody but the climber can make that call.

Good for you lad. People not wanting to die eh, the worlds gone soft.....How stupid would you have to be to climb things a certain way because someone else said so?


I have, and I'm sure a lot of other people have. If you get around to it, just make sure you don't fall.


And ffs, how about reading what I wrote instead of getting all high and mighty about NOT WANTING TO DIE. If I stick a pad under an E1 5a, I don't get the E1 tick. Simple premis. Similar to the Promise with pads, it makes a difference. It's just a bit different on an gnarly FA!

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

You're welcome, though illuminating reads in many ways.

There's been nothing factually wrong in your news for a long time (that I found) but a little more self consistency and following up of previous leads, would be nice (this probably applies towards mainstream news too). And you're giving us videos and no doubt you're climbing well, which is the important thing.

Anyway I'm sure French Duke probably is E9 in Boreals (look on AListair's website for the uncropped photo). Saying that (couldn't resist it), I may have to try on some Stingmas after all.

In reply to 220bpm:

I happen to think you're misguided. I'm sure that a huge number of 'traditional' ascentionists would have used modern kit if it was available at the time.

Not at all. It would be completely selfish to injure myself (potentially long hospital stay, unpaid time off work, wife and family worrying etc. etc.) when it could have been easily prevented in the first place. Do you have no empathy?


I read what you wrote very carefully and I think its highly irresponsible of you and others on these forums (a minority luckily) to advocate something that could get someone killed.

The route we are talking about here is a bloody serious one. Lobbing off near the top would mean an enormous swing into some jutting rocks after which you'd probably have to be picked up in pieces. Under the circumstances I hardly think a pad invalidates the 'tick'. Its not really comparable to an E1 5a with a mat is it?

In reply to Paz:

I think with the lip on the heals, Boreals are the perfect shoe for this route!

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

There isn't a lip on the Stingmas, but I know that Jordan thought the lipped heels like on the Mutants were really helpful on Reservoir Dogs.

The route looks brilliant, he deserves to be well chuffed.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Nice one Jordan its good to see a Burnley lad knocking off the top routes. Lets hope Burnley F.C. will knock out Chelsea tonight in the Carling cup as well.

C'MON YOU CLARETS

In reply to Seymore Butt:

Quite frankly, a gobsmackingly accurate prediction. Is your real name Nostradamus or something??

In reply to Chris F:

Hmmm? with odds at 15:1 against and not putting a bet on, Nostradamus I think not, unfortunately.

Still a brilliant result whatever.

C,MON YOU CLARETS !!!!!