UKC

Riccardo Cassin, nearly 100 years old

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 ericoides 28 Nov 2008
Riccardo Cassin will be 100 yrs old on 2 January 2009

I was appalled to see that he didn't yet have a page to himself on wiki so yesterday and today I have tried to put the rudiments of one together

If anyone wants to add anything or to make corrections to what I've put, please feel free

If anyone has a non-copyrighted pic of him it'd be great if you could add it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riccardo_Cassin
In reply to ericoides: Good effort. 50 years of Alpinism is a 'must read' for anyone with any alpine ambitions.
 220bpm 28 Nov 2008
In reply to ericoides:

Good one the Wiki, how he isn't in there already tho, I've no idea.

Mans a proper legend, and yes '50 yrs of Alpinism' is a great book, a look back to a very different age. Has a proud spot on my book case.
OP ericoides 28 Nov 2008
In reply to 220bpm:
> (In reply to ericoides)
>
> Good one the Wiki, how he isn't in there already tho, I've no idea.

Having looked into it, I discover that someone did make a page for him a year ago, but it was deleted on the grounds that the writer did not explain why Cassin was sufficiently notable to be in wiki. I wonder what this discarded page said...

morphus 28 Nov 2008
In reply to ericoides: nice work- already more comprehensive than the italian wiki entry
so much for his alleged cardiac problem which prevented him from the FA of K2
In reply to ericoides:

Nice entry, but please, remove or change the reference to Corti rescue, as, while Cassin had certainly a big part on Corti's post Eiger ordeal, for what we know now, he was not "involved" in the rescue operation in the regular sense of the word.

I've just finished reading "The Prisoner of Eiger", Giorgio Spreafico new, brilliant book on the 1957 tragedy,

http://www.ragnilecco.com/page.lasso?cl=9&lvl1=45&lvl2=423&l=1&...

and while I knew the outline of the story (which has been the subject of another recnet book by Daniel Anker and Reiner Rettner) I had no idea of some of the most hideous details. A well researched, heart wrenching and sobering read (hope it gets translated), showing (if there was still need to!) that even "golden age" mountaineering could have a truly appalling side...
morphus 28 Nov 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli: surely you are more informed to correct the entry?
In reply to morphus:

I think that just removing the reference would be appropriate. Cassin has made so many incredible feat on the mountains, I don't think his link with the Corti story needs to be publicized.
OP ericoides 28 Nov 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli:

Thanks Luca; given your knowledge, I have done as you have suggested, although I notice that Cassin's involvement is mentioned in Daniel Anker's Eiger book as well.
flatiron 29 Nov 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli:

Luca,

you are right, as always! Cassin was in Grindelwald (1957) to climb the Eigerwand with Carlo Mauri, when he learned about the 4 mountaineers being in trouble on the north face. The rescue operation was started by Robert Seiler (Switzerland)and subsequently by Ludwig Gramminger (Germany). Cassin and Mauri quickly puted their plans to attempt the wall on hold, and joined the rescue team. They were helpful in translating Claudio Corti, but didn't play a leading role in the rescue. In the aftermath, Cassin's unfair remarks about Corti (widely published in Harrer's and Jack Olsen's books) overshadowed Corti's whole life.

Giorgio's book indeed needs a translation in several languages - it's the first time Claudio Corti really collaborated with an author to tell his side of the story. When Daniel Anker and I wrote our book about the tragedy, we focussed on documenting the story with a lot of new pictures, but it surely needed an Italian author to write such an insightful and well researched book. Giorgio was able to find a lot of photos, that had never been published until now. Congrats to him for such a fine work!

Rainer
 sutty 29 Nov 2008
In reply to flatiron:

I wonder if Chris Bonington knows anything about this. I do remember being with Whillans and saying something about Corti's incompetence and was quickly told off as he had climbed with Corti and found him skilled and safe.
Now did Bonington and Whillans talk about these rescues on expeditions, and the way events are distorted and people castigated.

Some other Alpinists from the time may also be able to shed some light on things.
In reply to flatiron:
> (In reply to Luca Signorelli)
>
Hi Reiner, nice to hear you again!
>
> They were helpful in translating Claudio Corti, but didn't play a leading role in the rescue. In the aftermath, Cassin's unfair remarks about Corti (widely published in Harrer's and Jack Olsen's books) overshadowed Corti's whole life.

I'm afraid it wasn't just a matter of remarks (but you know that), however I understamd Corti wanted this book to put the whole issue to rest once for all.

>
> Giorgio's book indeed needs a translation in several languages - it's the first time Claudio Corti really collaborated with an author to tell his side of the story. When Daniel Anker and I wrote our book about the tragedy, we focussed on documenting the story with a lot of new pictures, but it surely needed an Italian author to write such an insightful and well researched book. Giorgio was able to find a lot of photos, that had never been published until now. Congrats to him for such a fine work!

I think the best thing about "Prisoner of Eiger" is really leaving fact to speak for themselves, so to put the 1957 affair in the bigger context of how was - for good and bad - mountaineering back then (you did that too brilliantly with you books, but of course Spreafico had more chances to get local material and to talk with Corti).

He tells us who Corti really was - both one of the strongest Italian climbers of his era (his list of climbs is staggering!) AND someone hopelessly naive - and a bit thick headed - dealing the post-rescue brouhaha that followed. It's really a strange mixture - a great climber and a nice bloke, a bit rough around the edges but with the heart in the right place, who seemed to have the knack to pull all the wrong levers when it came to deal with the press and the public after the climb.

I add that Spreafico does a nice work debunking a lot of stuff that was often repeated over the years (but NOT in your books!) like the supposed lack of preparation of the four climbers (including Stefano Longhi). Or the legend about Corti as accident prone being - indeed - just a myth, as in two of the three instances when his climbing partners died, he had physically nothing to do with what happened.

But the thing that impressed me most was how he gives a unflinching portrait of the continental climbing scene of the '50s, the good, the bad and the absolutely horrible. It's a well timed (considering a lot of what we've been reading now in the press related to climbing disaster) reminder how bad things may go when lies get repeated (and printed!) so often they become accepted truths. And how lies can ruin people lives so easily.

It was nice however to learn that, when everyone was screaming murder at Corti, someone made a stand for him - including Bonatti, I'm told. An excellent book for sure.

Reiner, get in touch when you've some spare time!
Gordon Smith 29 Nov 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli: Hi Luca old bean. Just a wee question ... why SHOULD climbers be spin masters and able to deal with the press and publicity? Being rough around the edges sounds like an appropriate attribute for a mountaineer. Sounds to me that he was more interested in climbing and more climbing, and would climb with whoever would climb with him, rather than developing his PR skills?? Not having access to the literature that you have access to, in what way is he castigated for being 'unprepared' for his Eiger climb? Some of the stuff I just read on the internet - eg Time mag's review of Olson's book - is filled with unutterable, sensationalist rubbish!!

You are, Luca, as always the authority and a fountain of information!
Cheers
Gordon
flatiron 29 Nov 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli:

Luca,

you did a great job in explaining why this really important book needs a translation.

I might - once again - add, what puzzles me the most regarding this whole sad issue: Harrer's part in this Eiger-tragedy is nothing but miserable. He did an outstanding and unprecedented job - in a negative way! - in demolishing Claudio Corti's reputation both as a climber and a human being.
The problem is that "The white spider" is (and I fear always will be) something like the holy bible of Eiger-history. No one can deny it has its (very) strong parts, like the first hand account of the first ascent in 1938 or the description of Toni Kurz' final hours. But his treatment of Corti (and Longhi) was just a result of poor journalism. Why the hell did he (or his co-writer Kurt Maix) never even try to get in contact with Corti? It would have been so easy to get some things straight. Instead he went on to repeat the same accusations all over again in the dozens of reprints of TWS - up until his death. He never apologized in an appropriate way - a very poor behaviour.

Rainer
 Al Evans 29 Nov 2008
In reply to ericoides:
> Riccardo Cassin will be 100 yrs old on 2 January 2009

Well thats it! You put the juju on him now!
OP ericoides 29 Nov 2008
In reply to Al Evans:

I think that the publishers of the book celebrating his forthcoming 100th birthday, and the many articles in the Italian press, might have done that before me!
In reply to sutty:
> (In reply to flatiron)
>
> I wonder if Chris Bonington knows anything about this. I do remember being with Whillans and saying something about Corti's incompetence and was quickly told off as he had climbed with Corti and found him skilled and safe.
> Now did Bonington and Whillans talk about these rescues on expeditions, and the way events are distorted and people castigated.

I think Bonington could be interested, as one of the new bits of informations I got from the book is that Ian Clough (yes, THAT Ian Clough) wrote a letter to Corti in October 1962, thanking him for the help Corti gave to his group on the Badile in august 61 (it's the story told here)

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=306

Clough wrote also to tell Corti he had published on the Alpine Climbing Group journal the topo of the new route on the NE face of the Badile that Corti himself had opened with Felice Battaglia in 1953, and to tell him he was looking forward to repeat it soon. This didn't happen unfortunately, and the first attempt to repeat the Corti-Battaglia was done by Mike Kosterlitz and Dick Isherwood in 1968 (they ended up losing the original route after few pitches, and opening the British route).
 sutty 30 Nov 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli:

There is an article in the Alpine Journal 1969 of the Kosterlitz-Isherwood route, if someone had suggested it to me in 1972 I might have had a go at it with the right partner.

I think there may be something in the Cambridge university website as well,

http://www.cumc.uk.com/content/journals/
In reply to Gordon Smith:
> why SHOULD climbers be spin masters and able to deal with the press and publicity? Being rough around the edges sounds like an appropriate attribute for a mountaineer. Sounds to me that he was more interested in climbing and more climbing, and would climb with whoever would climb with him, rather than developing his PR skills??

They shouldn't, or at least, definitely Corti wasn't looking for some press exposure when he climbed Eiger. But I think that the book author (Spreafico) gives a good answer to your question, remarking how the relationship between climbing world and "general" press has been always rather poor. Climbers often consider the press as a sort of "cab", something you can ride in towards greater fame, then get out when things get sour. On the other hand, non specialized press (but also specialized, to some extent) amplifies only the part of mountaineering that sell copies: the tragedies, the controversies etc. The more, the better, and, as you may know, some people would never let truth get in the way of a good story.

I believe that the "Corti affair" had both sides of this. Some people - fellow Italian climbers, to be precise - initially used the press against Corti because they felt cheated/offended by his attempt to climb Eiger, and the following rescue (I know this may sound absurd, but that's what happened), while most of the press (and Harrer!) got what they where beingtold without trying to verify the sources. And Corti got caught in between. It began a deliberate mediatic ambush and then became something that grew to uncontrollable proportions.

> Not having access to the literature that you have access to, in what way is he castigated for being 'unprepared' for his Eiger climb? Some of the stuff I just read on the internet - eg Time mag's review of Olson's book - is filled with unutterable, sensationalist rubbish!!

Harrer and (to a far lesser extent) Olsen painted him as more or less an incompetent and a fool, who had no business climbing Eiger. Both ignored he had one of the most impressive climbing resume of any Italian climber of his age, both before the '57 affair and after.
In reply to flatiron:
>
> I might - once again - add, what puzzles me the most regarding this whole sad issue: Harrer's part in this Eiger-tragedy is nothing but miserable. He did an outstanding and unprecedented job - in a negative way! - in demolishing Claudio Corti's reputation both as a climber and a human being.
> The problem is that "The white spider" is (and I fear always will be) something like the holy bible of Eiger-history. No one can deny it has its (very) strong parts, like the first hand account of the first ascent in 1938 or the description of Toni Kurz' final hours. But his treatment of Corti (and Longhi) was just a result of poor journalism. Why the hell did he (or his co-writer Kurt Maix) never even try to get in contact with Corti? It would have been so easy to get some things straight. Instead he went on to repeat the same accusations all over again in the dozens of reprints of TWS - up until his death. He never apologized in an appropriate way - a very poor behaviour.

Harrer (who, in my opinion, had a life long problem with truth) believed what he wanted to believe, and heard what he wanted to hear. It's clear that he got "fed" information, but he never, ever questioned them. And the fact that he never apologized doesn't suprise me a bit.

Actually, is a bit more disturbing than that. Harrer (and Maix, and Guido Tonella, who was Harrer main initial source) acted following an agenda and a set of assumption they never seriously tried to question. They both wanted a good, easy to sell, sensational story to cater the prejudice of their readers, and their own prejudices too. The scary thing about their version of the drama is that it was so believable back in the ‘50s (particularly by Germans or Swiss or Austrians): young and naïve Germans meet incompetent and dishonest/dumb Italians on the world most fearsome mountain (incidentally, a mountain everyone back considered “German” because of the 30’s dramas), and they both made huge, dumb mistakes, and then “something” terrible and difficult to explain happens. But hey, what can you expect from these modern climbers – they are not like REAL climbers, wardens of a tradition of pure mountaineering and blah, blah, blah, blah.

Doesn't all this sound vaguely familiar? The times may have changed and the language may be different, but isn't that what we read today on almost all important mountaineering accident? Sometimes I wonder - aren't we often trying to do the same thing - accommodate the complex reality of the mountains and climbing to our assumptions?
 David Rose 01 Dec 2008
In reply to ericoides: Luca, your point, as ever, is excellent. As someone who is both a journalist and a climber, it never ceases to amaze me just how bad so much coverage of mountaineering is, especially when things go wrong. Newspapers that will normally take a little care at least to get the basic details of a story right can be amazingly slapdash: I remember reading last summer a report in the Guardian of an accident that was (if I recall it correctly) on the Midi, but stated this was on Mt Blanc. It is also depressing how hard it is to get stories into non-specialist media that do not conform to a few rigid templates.

I am intrigued by the references above to Bonington and Whillans. I have heard friends of Brian Nally, whom they helped off the Eiger after his partner was killed in 1962, complain bitterly that B and W were unfair in criticising him afterwards. I have no idea whether these complaints are justified, but this does underline how perspectives may differ. Nally's friends say he was a competent, steady climber who was just very unlucky.
 Mick Ward 01 Dec 2008
In reply to davidoldfart:

> Nally's friends say he was a competent, steady climber who was just very unlucky.

Yes, I think that's the nub of it. It's the old 'he who survives is in the right'. If you top out, nobody bothers about your mistakes. But if you don't top out and/or there are fatalities, then every last imperfection is pored over.

I've always felt that (from memory) Barry Brewster's comment to Nally, "Brian, I am sorry..." was unbearably poignant. Brave men.

And outstandingly brave for Bonington and Whillans to go into a hell of stonefall to save Nally.

Re the OP, it's great to think of Cassin nearing 100. What a man.

Mick

 sutty 01 Dec 2008
In reply to davidoldfart:

>Nally's friends say he was a competent, steady climber who was just very unlucky.

Should have mentioned him in my other posting. Whillans may have said something originally but told me later that he had climbed with him and also found him competent, and unlucky on the Eiger. I think the slating he got was probably due to inexperience and the shock of losing his climbing partner, not a nice thing to happen to anyone.

His comments came about after someone nicknamed him Jim Death, I told Whillans and he was at me straight away saying he was nothing like that.
flatiron 01 Dec 2008
In reply to sutty:

It's very interesting to read about this issue in Jim Perrin's book "The Villain" (p. 226/227). He wrote that Nally and Whillans became good friends in later years but that Nally is still extremely bitter against Chris Bonington "to the present day". Nally is quoted that CB's first question to Nally on their encounter on the Second Icefield was: "What paper are you with? I'm with the express ..." Perrin asked CB about this Question, and Bonington denied that the first dialogue between Nally and him happened exactly like this. He admitted, though, that he (CB) might have asked Nally that question later, "just before we met the assembled press at the (gallery) window".

Perrin goes on to tell, that the British press "portrayed him (Nally) in an unfavourable, overambitious and incompetent light". Sounds very similar to Corti's ordeal.
 sutty 01 Dec 2008
In reply to flatiron:

Ah, must get on with reading it, only on P225 ATM.

Well I have only had the book two years next week. Slow reader.

I stopped reading it for a while after seeing so many mistakes in it when in hospital last year.
In reply to flatiron:
> (In reply to sutty)
>
> It's very interesting to read about this issue in Jim Perrin's book "The Villain" (p. 226/227). He wrote that Nally and Whillans became good friends in later years but that Nally is still extremely bitter against Chris Bonington "to the present day". Nally is quoted that CB's first question to Nally on their encounter on the Second Icefield was: "What paper are you with? I'm with the express ..." Perrin asked CB about this Question, and Bonington denied that the first dialogue between Nally and him happened exactly like this. He admitted, though, that he (CB) might have asked Nally that question later, "just before we met the assembled press at the (gallery) window".
>
> Perrin goes on to tell, that the British press "portrayed him (Nally) in an unfavourable, overambitious and incompetent light". Sounds very similar to Corti's ordeal.


Interestingly, Spreafico quotes the Brian Nally story (and the dialogue between him and B and W reported in Bonington's book) to make the point that even just one days left marooned on Eiger was (quoting the Spreafico's book here)

"enough to cloud the mind of a solid, experience, down-to-earth British climber. So, five years before and after he had lived a more than a week long odyssey, how is it possible to accuse Corti of "a lack of lucidity"?"

I've recently researched a bit the Nally accident on Eiger. It's an interesting story, because, as you've noticed, there's plenty of similarities with the Corti affair.

In short

- both climbed Eiger without being widely know outside their own country
- both were excellent, well prepared climber who had trained methodically to attempt the Nordwand
- both lost their friend/climbing parter in what were basically uncontrollable circumstances
- both were saved in high profile rescue (even if the Nally rescue was a far smaller, self organized affair than the gargantuan operation to save Corti) by famous climbers (Terray / Gramminger etc for Corti; Whillans and Bonington for Nally)
- both were clearly confused when they got finally reached by rescue
- both got accused afterwards to have been imprudent and overambitious
- both were the subject of Harrer malevolent attention, even if Corti got an entire chapter (and a more detailed "treatement"), while Nally got simply few paragraphs.

But it's even more interesting to see the differences. And so:

- Nally got under some attention by the press, but in the end the story was forgotten, his privacy respected, and in almost all the British books I've read the reference to the whole thing, as tragic as it may have been, is nothing short of respectful and sensitive

- On the other hand, as soon as he got home, Corti went through - literally - hell on earth. He was completely ostracised (except by a tiny group of people who continued to believe in him) in his own community, could not work anymore for a long while (because no one wanted to hire him), saw his privacy repeatedly violated by the press, got publicly accused to have soiled the good name of Italian climbing, had his own name publicly soiled in a long string of press releases and in an international besteller, was almost driven mad by grief and the realization that, if Nothdurft and Mayer bodies weren't found, he was going to spend the rest of his live as a suspect of murder. And finally, when everything was cleared, and could hope for AT LEAST some apology, he was simply told "Look Claudio, we know that we've done some horrible thing to you, and that you've suffered a lot, but hey, it's all past, life is tough and then you die. The sooner you forget, the sooner everyone will be happy"

Quite a difference, isn't it?
morphus 01 Dec 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli: any more info on why Cassin was denied the FA of K2?
 Bruce Hooker 01 Dec 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli:

Isn't this a bit like Bonatti's story after the K2 expedition? The way he was treated by the Italian climbing establishment and the long drawn out nastiness, that is?
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to Luca Signorelli)
>
> Isn't this a bit like Bonatti's story after the K2 expedition? The way he was treated by the Italian climbing establishment and the long drawn out nastiness, that is?

Bonatti (who of course knew/knows Corti quite well) recently made some comparison between Corti's story and his own, even - in one occasion they meet in public some time ago - urging him to "speak" (which of course is a bit silly, as Corti is now quite unwell, and he would never had spoken to the public even when he was still able to (he normally speak very little "normal" Italian, and uses strict Lecco dialect, which is uncomprehensible to anyone not born in Lecco!)

Both got mistreated by the climbing establishment, and both got a late vindication of their position, but similarities ends here. Bonatti simply wanted to see his side of the story printed on magazines, and his name cleared by the suspicion he had "used" the oxygen bottle that he was supposed to bring to Compagnoni and Lacedelli. Besides that, the whole thing can be simply summed up in his own pride (which, to be honest, is monumental!) suffering a blow, and the blow being returned. Bonatti had on his side 90% of the climbing world (Italian or not), he was/is rich and famous, and is not someone you would lightly take on - quite the contrary.

Corti had none of this advantages. And what had to undergo was far worse than anything Bonatti experienced. I knew some of the details, but after reading Spreafico's book, I think Corti didn't got mad or took his own life just because of a strong religious sense, and a good dose of stubborness.

Speaking of madness - the book reports another detail I wasn't aware of: Maria Nava, who was Stefano Longhi's wife, had a mental breakdown just after the accident, and never recovered. She continued to be convinced that Stefano "would return soon, maybe even tonight", and never accepted to sign his death certificate (thus losing the money she was entitled to receive because of Longhi's death). Very sad.
flatiron 01 Dec 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli:

> But it's even more interesting to see the differences. And so:
>
> - Nally got under some attention by the press, but in the end the story was forgotten, his privacy respected, and in almost all the British books I've read the reference to the whole thing, as tragic as it may have been, is nothing short of respectful and sensitive


Does anybody know if Brian Nally continued to climb after the Eiger accident? I've never heard or read anything else about him other than what is written on this tragic attempt in 1962.


> - On the other hand, as soon as he got home, Corti went through - literally - hell on earth. He was completely ostracised (except by a tiny group of people who continued to believe in him) in his own community, could not work anymore for a long while (because no one wanted to hire him), saw his privacy repeatedly violated by the press, got publicly accused to have soiled the good name of Italian climbing, had his own name publicly soiled in a long string of press releases and in an international besteller, was almost driven mad by grief and the realization that, if Nothdurft and Mayer bodies weren't found, he was going to spend the rest of his live as a suspect of murder. And finally, when everything was cleared, and could hope for AT LEAST some apology, he was simply told "Look Claudio, we know that we've done some horrible thing to you, and that you've suffered a lot, but hey, it's all past, life is tough and then you die. The sooner you forget, the sooner everyone will be happy"
>
> Quite a difference, isn't it?

It is indeed quite a difference, Luca. Since everything could be observed through the binoculars from the Kleine Scheidegg in July 1962, there were not such mysteries as 5 years before, with two climbers missing. Everyone saw that Nally did anything possible for his mate Barry (who was burried in Grindelwald). And Harrer - although he didn't show a lot of respect for Nally's character - obviously in general had a high opinion of British mountaineering. In contrary he insisted that the "Eigerwand didn't suit the mentality of the Italian mountaineers". Quite a strange opinion, if you ask me.

Everyone who is able to read German, Italian or French should read Toni Hiebeler's book on the Eigerwand (published in 1963). It features a first hand account from Brian Nally, which features many interesting details of his and Barry Brewsters attempt. Sadly, it was never translated in English.

 David Rose 01 Dec 2008
In reply to ericoides: Interesting the common factor that emerges here: as you put it Luca, the "malevolence" of Heinrich Harrer. Well, I suppose this was a man whose life was largely based on lies and concealment (of his membership of the SS), and it seems that his tenuous relationship with truth and integrity went beyond his hidden Nazi past. Diminishing the likes of Corti and Nally was another way of aggrandizing his own achievement in 1938. I wonder what would have happened if he hadn't met Heckmair? I guess he'd have been a frozen corpse on the face back then, too.
In reply to flatiron:
> And Harrer - although he didn't show a lot of respect for Nally's character - obviously in general had a high opinion of British mountaineering. In contrary he insisted that the "Eigerwand didn't suit the mentality of the Italian mountaineers". Quite a strange opinion, if you ask me.

Could be easy to read it as a sort of "hard to die" racist attitude (after all the Brits are "aryans"), buy I'm not sure I buy that. I think that simply Harrer had his nose stuck into his petty world view (which is quite funny considering how much he extensively travelled!) and had a lot of contempt for "little men" attempting what he considered feat that only "special people" - like him! - could do. He obviously felt that great climbers of his era were demi-god of sort, and he saw himself as part of a clique. In some sense he was the ultimate climbing groupie.

>
> Everyone who is able to read German, Italian or French should read Toni Hiebeler's book on the Eigerwand (published in 1963). It features a first hand account from Brian Nally, which features many interesting details of his and Barry Brewsters attempt. Sadly, it was never translated in English.

I own it, it's a GREAT book! Bought it in 1973 when was translated in Italian and I was crazy for anything with the name "Eiger" on the cover. Great book, plenty of interesting info (and nice take on the Corti story, Hiebeler was not afraid to speak his own mind)
flatiron 01 Dec 2008
In reply to davidoldfart:
> (In reply to ericoides) Interesting the common factor that emerges here: as you put it Luca, the "malevolence" of Heinrich Harrer. Well, I suppose this was a man whose life was largely based on lies and concealment (of his membership of the SS), and it seems that his tenuous relationship with truth and integrity went beyond his hidden Nazi past. Diminishing the likes of Corti and Nally was another way of aggrandizing his own achievement in 1938. I wonder what would have happened if he hadn't met Heckmair? I guess he'd have been a frozen corpse on the face back then, too.

Heckmair and Vörg were convinced that Kasparek and Harrer were supposed to die on the northface, noticing the unsatisfactory climbing equipment. If it hadn't been for Vörg (who persuaded Heckmair in forming a team with the Austrians)they probably wouldn't have made it to the summit.

 David Rose 01 Dec 2008
In reply to ericoides: How horrible that a book with such racist attitudes (The White Spider) by a crypto-Nazi has been so influential for so long. As for Corti, my heart goes out to him. It would be nice if he could somehow be made aware of the solidarity being expressed towards him in this forum.
In reply to davidoldfart:
> (In reply to ericoides) Interesting the common factor that emerges here: as you put it Luca, the "malevolence" of Heinrich Harrer. Well, I suppose this was a man whose life was largely based on lies and concealment (of his membership of the SS), and it seems that his tenuous relationship with truth and integrity went beyond his hidden Nazi past. Diminishing the likes of Corti and Nally was another way of aggrandizing his own achievement in 1938.

As I answered to Reiner, I don't really buy the idea of Harrer as a "serious", "ideological" Nazi. He was clearly full of himself, a bootlicker and someone living in his own version of reality, but that was that. Nazism was a good way to feel important and get things his own way, but three seconds after Hitler lost the war, I don't think Harrer gave the whole thing more than a passing thought. His credo was quite simple: winner -> good; loser -> bad. Just that he had his own view of what "loser" or "winner" meant.

> I wonder what would have happened if he hadn't met Heckmair? I guess he'd have been a frozen corpse on the face back then, too.

That was PRECISELY Heckmair's opinion on the subject, has he graphically explained in broken Italian to writer Lino Leggio when they met in Grindenwald in 1988 ("See this spot on the Second Icefield? If me and
Vorg not passing that day, this spot now called "Harrer biwak"!!!")
flatiron 01 Dec 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli:
> (In reply to flatiron)
> [...]
>
> In some sense he was the ultimate climbing groupie.

Now THAT is one nice expression!
>
> [...]
>
> I own it, it's a GREAT book! Bought it in 1973 when was translated in Italian and I was crazy for anything with the name "Eiger" on the cover. Great book, plenty of interesting info (and nice take on the Corti story, Hiebeler was not afraid to speak his own mind)

Hiebeler is - not only in my opinion - one of the best mountaineering journalists ever. His magazine "Alpinismus" is (at least in the German language market) unsurpassed until today. He never shied away to raise his voice. The German Alpine Club had a very hard time with him, since he was very critical of this organization.

Hiebeler was the first who strongly defended Corti. Surely it did help a little bit, that he couldn't stand Harrer at all.

 David Rose 01 Dec 2008
In reply to ericoides: Anyway, back to Cassin. I remember when he repeated his route on the Badile for his 80th birthday. Pretty impressive. When did he finally stop climbing?
 sutty 02 Dec 2008
In reply to flatiron:

>Does anybody know if Brian Nally continued to climb after the Eiger accident?

Yes he did, as I said earlier Whillans climbed with him somewhere. It was when I mentioned that some friends said they had met 'Jim Death' on the Aiguille du Chardonnet and said who they meant he Whillans said they had got things all wrong. Last I heard he was in London, but then that was in about 1985.

Maybe he will see this and put the record straight if he is around.
 MG 02 Dec 2008
In reply to sutty: Good thread. Is it time someone wrote a good history of European alpinism in the "nationalistic" period - say 1930-1960?
 Mick Ward 02 Dec 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli:
> (In reply to flatiron)

> Quite a difference, isn't it?

My God - isn't it just?

Mick

 Mick Ward 02 Dec 2008
In reply to MG:
> (In reply to sutty) Good thread. Is it time someone wrote a good history of European alpinism in the "nationalistic" period - say 1930-1960?

Luca?

Mick
 Mick Ward 02 Dec 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli:
> (In reply to davidoldfart)

> That was PRECISELY Heckmair's opinion on the subject, has he graphically explained in broken Italian to writer Lino Leggio when they met in Grindenwald in 1988 ("See this spot on the Second Icefield? If me and Vorg not passing that day, this spot now called "Harrer biwak"!!!")

Another long-standing query laid to rest!

Mick

OP ericoides 02 Dec 2008
In reply to davidoldfart:
> (In reply to ericoides) I remember when he repeated his route on the Badile for his 80th birthday.

If I'm not wrong it was his route's 50th birthday; he was 78 at the time.
 sutty 02 Dec 2008
In reply to ericoides:

Found this link and put it up for others to look up references in it about Cassin.

http://www.mybulgaria.info/modules.php?name=Wiki&title=Riccardo_Cassin

You are right according to this being the 50th anniversary of the route.
OP ericoides 02 Dec 2008
In reply to sutty:
> (In reply to ericoides)
>
> Found this link and put it up for others to look up references in it about Cassin.
>
> http://www.mybulgaria.info/modules.php?name=Wiki&title=Riccardo_Cassin

Er, that is an exact copy of the Wikipedia page I have just written, apart from the useful adverts for property in Bulgaria. Or am I missing something?
 Al Evans 02 Dec 2008
In reply to ericoides: What a strange and disturbing thread?
 sutty 02 Dec 2008
In reply to ericoides:

Sorry, not seen the Wiki page yet, now how has that got onto there so quickly?

Did you put in the references at the bottom for further reading?
OP ericoides 02 Dec 2008
In reply to sutty:

Ah. Dunno, prob some bot or other. Yes, the refs are mine.
In reply to Al Evans:
> What a strange and disturbing thread?

(Forgive me Al, this is going to be more long-winded than usual...)

The thing is that climbing is not always cheerful or morally sound place. Particularly when there’s a mixture of too much prestige, some money, and some big ego at stake. The more one tries to understand the history of mountaineering, the more realizes that it’s an extremely complex environment, where (as in most of humanity!) there are little “black” and “white”, but varying shades of grey.

Most climbing stories are inspiring and uplifting. Some are tragic, some are funny. And few are sad and disturbing. The Corti affair is one; the Desmaison odyssey in 1971 on the Jorasses is another, and the 1996 Everest may be included too in the list. What make the Corti story probably more sad than the others is that here the “victim” was someone who, back then, had very little chances to defend himself. While Desmaison or Boukreev had the means and the connections to write books and make their voice heard, Corti had none – he is a self educated man living in a tiny village, and for all his life has worked as the local carpenter. He was a great climber, but he remained strictly an amateur for his entire climbing career. He was also a difficult character, stubborn, sometime extremely suspicious of other people’s motives, maybe too proud and single minded for his own good. Back in 1957 this meant being considered, in some circle, a “lesser” individual – thus a perfect target for the “slow motion roasting” he was subjected to.

As for his tormentors, maybe few convinced they were doing the right thing; but I understand some other were motivated by less than noble intentions. For the majority of the rest it was a mix of the two – unfortunately, this may include some famous names of Italian climbing who should have known better: if Corti suffered what he did, it was also because they put the weight of their reputation against him.

Just to explain my point: I believe that one of the BIG assets of the post war British climbing scene was a healthy sense of amateurism and individuality/ism. And another was coming in the Alps not being under the long shadow of some “big” accomplishment of the previous generation. Bonington, Whillans, Patey, Brown and all the rest went to Chamonix or the Dolomites as perfect newcomers, maybe trying to emulate the deeds they had read about on magazines and books, but without the added burden back home of someone of an older generation telling them “you should this, you should do that, because that’s the way climbing is meant to be”. There were no local “heroes” whose footsteps was mandatory to follow, no local Cassin or Gervasutti or Comici and all their friends and climbing partners and self styled “heirs” monopolizing the scene and the media, and deciding what’s right and what’s wrong.

Also, there was little money involved, and (generally) no “national pride” at stake (ok the Everest ’53 expedition is an exception to that, but my point still stands). The amateurism, the individualism, the sense of self accomplishment and self reliance meant a big explosion of climbing creativity and, “incidentally”, that MAYBE a Corti affair could not have happened in the UK.

On the other hand, in Italy and Germany (and to a lesser extent in France), all those big shots who had done all those amazing climbs in the ’30s were, in the late ’40s and 50’, still very much there, often with prestigious positions in national climbing organization. Or if physically not there (as in Gervasutti’s case), a plethora of their buddies were continuing their “tradition” (on a side note, it’s uncertain that Gervasutti would have really approved all that was later done using his name, but that’s another subject). And there were the national Alpine clubs, the local, often very hierarchy-oriented local climbing clubs, the whole sense of national pride, the power of the local press etc.

This in some case did a lot of good to local climbing, as it’s debatable that a Bonatti could have ever began climbing in war-stricken Italy without the support of his club and (later) of Cassin. But on the same time this (at least in Italy) created a stagnant, often oppressive environment where it was difficult to do “something new”, as disapproval from peers or from “name” climbers was very often a big no no. Incidentally, this created too the conditions for the Corti affair happening.

As a minor irony, the Nuovo Mattino movement began and development also as a massive backlash against all that, and it’s no secret that the “seed” of the Nuovo Mattino more radical ideas grew because of the contact, in the late 60’s and early ‘70s between few young Turin climbers like Giampiero Motti (who spoke English) and the great American and British climbing literature of the two previous decades: Plus the fact that Motti (and Grassi, Manera, Galante etc) started climbing in the Orco area with people like Mike Kosterlitz. This brought a whole influx of new ideas and new models of mountaineering that, for good and bad, later “precipitated” (among the other things) the sport climbing revolution.

(I tried to keep it short, but the fingers wouldn't just stop!)
 Bruce Hooker 03 Dec 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli:

All this sounds a bit like the French Annapurna expedition and what followed, with Louis Lachenal playing something of a similar role to Conti? I'm not familiar with the story you are referring too, except from what I read in Terray's book (I think) but the way Lachenal ended his days seemed very tragic to me too, especially the way he was treated by many people who should have known better. Also from the way you describe here of Conti's story, there seems to be parallels with all the problems around the Annapurna expedition and after, although the details are quite different, of course.

I don't think there have been similar cases in the UK, Herzog and Mazeaud going on to long political careers in conservative establishment political parties and all the political side that this implied... Also the rather brutal hierarchical relations described in both the Annapurna and K2 expeditions are a something that I was surprised by when I first read the books.

Different worlds.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to Luca Signorelli)
>
> All this sounds a bit like the French Annapurna expedition and what followed, with Louis Lachenal playing something of a similar role to Conti? I'm not familiar with the story you are referring too, except from what I read in Terray's book (I think) but the way Lachenal ended his days seemed very tragic to me too, especially the way he was treated by many people who should have known better. Also from the way you describe here of Conti's story, there seems to be parallels with all the problems around the Annapurna expedition and after, although the details are quite different, of course.

The "psychological" environment and the culture was partially similar, but also quite different to some extent. First, the guy on Annapurna were all big boys, and while Herzog as "political officer" had definitely a special role, the rest of the crew wasn't exactly keen on playing second banana to anyone. French climbing culture is/was quite meritocratic (i.e. the better you are, the more chances you've to get in the limelight), and while people may have different personal value, when national prestige is involved they get all quite happy to do team work - I've seen this quite a few times.

There's been a lot that did not work on Annapurna, and - again - the type of climbing culture was similar to that I've described in my previous post. But on the other hand, some of the stuff you read in David Robert's book it's simply not true - for instance, the expedition photo were not "extorted" by Herzog to their legitimate original owners, as I've seen several books and old magazines with original pictures taken on Annapurna in 1950, and the copyright was always correctly attributed.

> I don't think there have been similar cases in the UK, Herzog and Mazeaud going on to long political careers in conservative establishment political parties and all the political side that this implied...

That's more a Chamonix specific - Cham has always been politically very powerful, because of its ties in Paris

> Also the rather brutal hierarchical relations described in both the Annapurna and K2 expeditions are a something that I was surprised by when I first read the books.

K2 was yet another different scenario from Annapurna, even more complex if it's possible. It was an potentially unhealthy mixture of too many different people put all together without a coherent leadership and with a confused set of goals (except for the obvious "get to the top"). Ardito Desio was an excellent explorer (physically very strong), a scientist, and someone very good on navigating the political waters of Pakistan. But he was no climber, and was not good on doing "human resource management". A group of climbers is not the Army, you can't just order people "go there and do that" if you're not in some way involved in real climbing on the forefront. He was also quite self-centred and clearly vulnerable by sycophancy, something that created all sort of problem during the climb.

When Mario Puchoz died of pneumonary oedema, Desio pulled all the wrong strings with the people of the rest of the "Courmayeur group" (Viotto, Bonatti & Rey), who, along with Abraham, were clearly the strongest of the bunch, and felt outraged on being ordered back on the mountain mere seconds after Puchoz (another Courmayeur guide) had died, without any chance for a real mourning. Instead, Desio came more and more to rely on Compagnoni, who had become some sort of unelected second in command, and acted on that capacity high on the mountain, without being recognized as such by the rest of the group. The entire sequence of event that followed was entirely the result of this "head group" (the above mentioned climbers + Lacedelli) being left to their devices. Both Compagnoni and Bonatti were desperate to get to the top, and tried to double-cross each other, with the notorious results (ie Compagnoni won)

For all this soap opera, it's important to note however that they did summit, something that better organized expeditions didn't manage to achieve. I believe things would have been much different with someone acting as a fully recognized climbing team leader, leaving Desio to the beaurocratic and organizational duties he was more suited. Cassin may have worked, but it was clearly impossible to make him work along with Desio (and viceversa). However, it must be remembered that on Gasherbrum IV in 1958 Cassin's skill in terms of logistic etc were rather unimpressive, and Bonatti was quite vocal in his disappointment afterwards.
flatiron 04 Dec 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli:

Your posts are as amazing and interesting as ever. Thanks for taking your time!
Gordon Smith 05 Dec 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli: Luca your magnum opus is eventually going to be a political history of alpinism. It will be an astounding book, thousands and thousands of pages long with wonderful old photographs, fascinating anecdotes, penetrating analyses and so on. It will also provide the ground work for a new way of looking at human interaction in the 'real world'. The only problem is that it is going to take you years and years to write ....so you had better get started on it now (in any spare micro-second of time that you have). Your stuff is always fascinating!!

BTW You do seem to have a fondness for us Brits. Is that because you see us as basically anarchic (or horizontally organised as opposed to the vertical organisation of the traditional alpine countries) in our approach to alpinism? I suspect that the old anarchy of British alpinism is rapidly disappearing with the rise of professionalism in the sport - guiding and organised competition. Or are you just being nice to us 'coz you are posting in a Brit forum?
Gordon
In reply to Gordon Smith:
> (In reply to Luca Signorelli) Luca your magnum opus is eventually going to be a political history of alpinism. It will be an astounding book, thousands and thousands of pages long with wonderful old photographs, fascinating anecdotes, penetrating analyses and so on. It will also provide the ground work for a new way of looking at human interaction in the 'real world'. The only problem is that it is going to take you years and years to write ...

Just imagine the scene - your average mountain book lover goes to the nearest mountain bookshop, and here's it - "Luca Signorelli - Encyclopedia of First Ascent on Mountains of the Alps Beginning With the Letters G and J - Volume XVII". He opens the book, read few random lines, and slips immediately into catalepsy!

And by the way, most of my future free time may be already booked trying to write the story of a certain climb made in the 70's by a certain Scot and some American...


>
> BTW You do seem to have a fondness for us Brits. Is that because you see us as basically anarchic (or horizontally organised as opposed to the vertical organisation of the traditional alpine countries) in our approach to alpinism? I suspect that the old anarchy of British alpinism is rapidly disappearing with the rise of professionalism in the sport - guiding and organised competition. Or are you just being nice to us 'coz you are posting in a Brit forum?

Bit of a complex answer here, as p I come from a traditionally Anglophile part of Italy (the NW), and I've great memories of my time in London, and there are plenty of things in Brit culture I've always been quite fond of: the music, particularly, but also the sense of humour, and of course the climbing scene (there are other things of course). I've always seen that British climber had that great balance between being very serious about climbing goals and style, and at the same time always "taking the mickey" out of a lot of pretensions that are normally associated with adventure climbing.

Or it may just all boil down a youth spent growing up in Courmayeur, reading Joe Tasker story about his climb of the Gervasutti route on the East Face of the Jorasses (written for Mountain, I believe, and translated on the "Rivista della Montagna) back in 1974, or seeing all those long haired Brit climbers hanging around outside of the Toni Gobbi climbing shop and thinking "that's the way to go".

To be honest, however, I've never really understood British prejudices against guiding - well, THAT'S a part of MY original culture!
 petestack 05 Dec 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli:
> (In reply to Gordon Smith)
> And by the way, most of my future free time may be already booked trying to write the story of a certain climb made in the 70's by a certain Scot and some American...

If that's (just guessing) got anything to do with a tale of dangerous obsession, I'd say said Scot had already made a pretty good job of it himself?
In reply to petestack:
> (In reply to Luca Signorelli)
> [...]
>
> If that's (just guessing) got anything to do with a tale of dangerous obsession, I'd say said Scot had already made a pretty good job of it himself?

I can't be more specific about it, but a good title for it could be really "The Great Lost Climb". Kind of an amazing story, really!
Gordon Smith 06 Dec 2008
In reply to Luca Signorelli: Actually, Luca, my point is really that you have an enormous fund of extremely interesting, and in many ways important (from an academic rather than just a mountain climbing perspective) information. It's funny .. you are always so apologetic about laying out bunches of interesting stuff ... it REALLY IS INTERESTING, you know!! We can't let you die ever ... and if you do we'll just have to put your brain in a jar and hook it up to a computer!!

BTW I'd really like for someone to go up and do it again ... I had an email from Wrygob and the section from the rateau de chevre to the top is quite definitely different (two frighteningly hard pitches up the face of the TR then just moderately hard mixed to the top for 500 or so feet. The key to the middle part would be around the area of Wrygob and Benson's 2nd Bivi ....
Gordon
 SFM 08 Dec 2008
In reply to ericoides:

someone must be reading UKc....

Article on Cassin in the Independent today
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/riccardo-cassin-a-climber-wh...
 GrahamD 08 Dec 2008
In reply to SFM:

Something to look forward to this evening.
OP ericoides 08 Dec 2008
In reply to SFM:

Yes, much of that is a barely altered lift from wiki
 David Rose 08 Dec 2008
In reply to ericoides: Not the bit about the flu, though.

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...