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Ordinary soap and gore tex?

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Removed User 21 Dec 2008
Any reason why ordinary washing powder can't/shouldn't be used to wash a gore tex shell.

Previously used the Nikwax wash but haven't any left. We use Persil non bio, obviously avoiding the fabric conditioner etc, so any reason why this isn't suitable.

Cheers

Iain
 DNS 21 Dec 2008
In reply to Removed User:

I believe you may use soap but not detergent.

I'm sure there'll be someone with a doctorate in soapology along in a few minutes.
 Billy the fish 21 Dec 2008
In reply to Removed User: I think a detergent powder would be better than soap. Soap leaves soap scum that could clag up the fabric. Biological powders should be OK, ones designed for colour washes will not contain bleach so should be even better.
 DNS 21 Dec 2008
In reply to Billy the fish:

Instructions I've seen for anything you intend to remain waterproof caution against using a detergent as they have a 'wetting' effect which pure soap does not. I have now exhausted my knowledge on the subject, but would happily defer to anyone with a postgraduate degree in soapology - or a fish for that matter. Night all.
 pog100 21 Dec 2008
In reply to DNS:

I also can't remember the chemistry but am sure that detergents and gore-tex are a big no no! Pure soap flakes are recommended but even then you are told to make sure your machine has no residues of detergent by washing the tray out and possibly doing a run with no detergent or clothes in it.
 Fidget 21 Dec 2008
In reply to Removed User:

I thought that said gore tax then. Which is what the vampir rulers take in the book I'm currently reading...
 The Lemming 21 Dec 2008
In reply to Removed User:

Detergent bad

Pure soap flakes good.

The detergent strips the waterproofing from the product and basically buggers up your nice expensive bit of kit.

I wash all my gore-tex in Acdo Soap flakes or Lux depending on which is available. As for proofing I choose TX 10 Direct or what ever is on offer at my local Millets. I then round it all off with an hour or so in the Tumble Dryer to restore the Durable Water Repelancy. I've been recommended to use an iron but I'm too sh1t scared to put a hot iron on my waterproofs.
Removed User 21 Dec 2008
In reply to The Lemming:
> (In reply to IainFP)
>
> Detergent bad
>
> Pure soap flakes good.
>
> The detergent strips the waterproofing from the product and basically buggers up your nice expensive bit of kit.

How can detergent strip the waterproofing? I think you may need to check up on how gore tex works.

In reply to others: Had also heard about pure soap, but despite a lot of googling I haven't come across this. Gore site is surprisingly poor or perhaps the fabric is more tolerable of general care. The only constant is no fabric softeners as this does cause wetting of the face fabric.

I'll give a whirl in the persil tomorrow.

Cheers
Iain


 Glansa 21 Dec 2008
In reply to Removed User:

Some manufacturers recommend pure soap only, some say powdered detergent is fine. North Face say do not use liquid detergent on Gore-tex as it leaves a residue but RAB tell you to use liquid on their eVent stuff. For safety I'd use pure rain water, distilled, twice.

Whatever you use make sure it's very well rinsed, if it still smells of Persil then there is still Persil on it. And while it shouldn't do anything to the membrane it will compromise the DWR finish as the detergent sort of breaks the surface tension of water and prevents beading. And once the outer layer has wetted out then you are going to get rather wet inside either by leakage or sweat as the Gore-tex can't breathe out into a soaked outer covering.

Although if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will tell me very soon.

Nick
Removed User 21 Dec 2008
In reply to nbarrass: Yep, understand about the DWR, have some Nikwax stuff and will give it a spin in the tumble dryer.

Still haven't seen any mnufacturers saying do not use powder detergent, is the pure soap thing an urban myth?!

 rich neary 21 Dec 2008
In reply to Removed User:

"is the pure soap thing an urban myth?"

Iain, believe it our not, the pure soap thing is not an urban myth. Gore, manufacturers, retailers and proofing companies all recommend that you use a pure soap/pure soap base product as most detergents leave a residue on the face fabric of the garment which usually hinders the re-application of a dwr onto the fabric. If you do choose to use your generic detergent to remove stubborn stains off your jacket, it is recommend that you rinse the garment thourghly before the application of the dwr.

Rich
 Glansa 21 Dec 2008
In reply to Removed User:

Just found this,

http://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/help_desk/caring_for_your_gear/waterpro...

or, if you can't be bothered following that it says,

"Do not use modern detergents, conditioners or softeners, as these can affect the performance of your garment.

You can wash your garment in pure soap or one of the specialist cleaning products available at many outdoor stores."

But as other manufacturers using Gore-tex specifically tell you to use powered detergent then it's all a bit confusing.

Nick
Removed User 21 Dec 2008
In reply to rich neary:
> (In reply to IainFP)
>
> "is the pure soap thing an urban myth?"
>
> Iain, believe it our not, the pure soap thing is not an urban myth.

Although I'm sure you're right I can't find this stated anywhere, particularily on Gores site. Manufacturers of cleaning products say their stuff is better than normal detergent

 rich neary 21 Dec 2008
In reply to Removed User:

Just had a look at a couple of my jackets there. ME Ogre, dosn't mention what you can't use apart from do not bleach or fabric softener. Berghaus pro-shell - Use non-biological washing powder. Interesting......
jbarronton 22 Dec 2008
In reply to Removed User: Goretex and Event are not the same type of membrane. You may use either liquid or powdered DETERGENT but I would suggest something gentle and never use anything scented, with a fabric softner or bleach. Then tumble dry on warm to revive the DWR. I spray mine with a little DWR spray and it repells like new. You actually need to revive your membrane by washing out the sweat and oils as well as drying it. The manufacturer should have care instructions on their website. Now that I think of it, here is Gortex's:


WASH
Machine-wash warm (104° F/40° C). Powder or liquid detergent. No fabric softener. Follow manufacturer's instructions.
DRY CLEAN
If professionally dry-cleaned, request clear distilled solvent rinse and spray repellent. Follow manufacturer's instructions.
IRON
Steam-iron warm, placing a towel or cloth between the garment and the iron. No need to iron the garment until it is completely dry.
BLEACH
No chlorine bleach. It may damage your garment.
DRY
Tumble-dry warm. The heat from the dryer will help to reactivate the durable water repellent (DWR) treatment on your garment's outer fabric.
WATER REPELLENT TREATMENT
Gore recommends applying a topical water repellency restorative (DWR treatment) for outdoor fabrics, available at your local outdoor retailer. We do not recommend wash-in treatments as they can affect the garment's breathability.
STAIN REMOVAL
Use a pre-wash treatment such as Shout® or Spray 'n Wash®, following its manufacturer's instructions. Rinse well.
In reply to jbarronton:

> Goretex and Event are not the same type of membrane

They're both ePTFE (very likely both using Gore's now elapsed patented process), but Gore-tex is protected by a thin layer of PU. Event uses a different oleophobic treatment (which long-term use is showing to be less than 100% effective: see later).

Ignore Gore's instructions.

They're written for the benefit of morons who buy Gore-tex because "it's the best, innit?", and don't actually give a monkey's stuff about the breathability of their clothing.

Gore want to make it look like their fabrics as 'easy care', which translates to 'stuff it in the wash with the rest of your washing'.

Anybody who actually wants to maintain the performance of a DWR treatment (on any DWR treated item) would be recommended NOT to use detergent only wash.

Detergent doesn't 'strip the DWR', contrary to widely held belief. However, it does bind rather well to the face fabric, thus negating the effect of the DWR; detergent tries to reduce the surface tension, DWR tries to increase it. Rinsing doesn't adequately remove these residues.

Soap doesn't bind to the fabric in the same way, and can usually be used to remove detergent residues if you've washed an item with detergent.

Event are now recommending a detergent wash followed by a soap wash to remove detergent residues IF you start to experience water coming through te fabric (due to reverse osmosis caused by dirt attracted into the pores by accumulated body oils). Soap washes aren't man enough to remove body oils, but detergents are. The moral is to wash your items fairly frequently, to prevent build-up of oils in the pores.

And if you use a detergent, use a liquid detergent; powders contain filling agents that can leave residues.

Clean the water path of your washing machine of detergent residue gunk first (or, preferably use a liquid detergent for your normal wash, dispensed with a ball so you don't get this build-up of clag in the first place...)


In reply to IainFP:

> How can detergent strip the waterproofing? I think you may need to check up on how gore tex works.

Gore's waterproofing works by mechanical (and electrostatic) means. However, the DWR that is necessary to allow the garment to breathe, by preventing the face fabric 'wetting out' and acquiring a vapour-impermeable layer of water on the surface, is compromised by detergents.


Now, if I had a pound for every time I've explained this topic...
Removed User 22 Dec 2008
In reply to captain paranoia: Superb reply, thank you very much.

Right, wheres the washing machine.........................


Iain
 The Lemming 22 Dec 2008
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Now, if I had a pound for every time I've explained this topic...


To help a confused lemming out do I do the following for Gore-Tex?

Step 1 wash in liquid detergent to remove all oils and dirt.

Step 2 wash in soap to remove all detergent residue

Step 3 revitalise DWR by either tumble drying or spraying on DWR treatment?
In reply to The Lemming:

If your garment is particularly dirty, and wetting out, then your sequence should work.

If your garment isn't too dirty, then a wash in soap flakes in a clean machine will probably be okay.

Dissolve the soap flakes in hot water first.
 The Lemming 24 Dec 2008
In reply to captain paranoia:
> (In reply to The Lemming)
>


>
> Dissolve the soap flakes in hot water first.

Interesting tip which I will try over the next few days with my jacket and trousers.

Cheers.

Removed User 24 Dec 2008
In reply to captain paranoia: Worked a treat albeit it with minor soapy excitement!

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=334183

Cheers for the info Kevin

Iain

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