UKC

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Can you not rewrite this article in English?
'send' as a noun is all very well in the US or as some kind of irony, but used straight it just sounds ridiculous. And the same goes for 'female' as a noun.

And surely Marietta Uhden has climbed 8c+, no?

Did Katie Whittaker really make the youngest ever ascent of an E7, or does the author mean youngest ascent of an E7 by a woman?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

And while I'm carping by the way, I'm pretty sure Katherine Schirrmacher has a 'c' in her name, although I expect I've spelled it wrong somewhere else.

Seeing Mina Leslie's name in the news brings back memories. I remember my friend getting burned off by her at Mile End in a bouldering competition in 1999/2000 or so, when if I recall correctly she was competing in the 10-12 girls category, and making my friend (a Font 7c+/French 8a kind of guy) look like a bit of a slouch on some slab problems on the fire escape slab. I'm not sure my friend ever got up the one she'd just flashed, although I think I did manage to in the end.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Trad? But as the route in the article hasn't been graded it's a bit moot.

In reply to Richard Bradley:

No, bolts. I am referring to the 'fifth woman to climb 8c+' - excuse me, 'first female to climb 8c+' - tag.

What is the idea of this 'female' thing?? Is it in order to avoid speciesism and include chimpanzees and the like? I know it's politically correct, but I've missed why 'woman' became incorrect. Is it all to do with the patriarchal hegemony somehow? And if so, why isn't 'female' tarred with the same brush?

Deep waters.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Is it because some of these females are girls ?

Y

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Can anybody explain to me why no women climbers were invited to the n.o 10 bash? Out of 45 climbers?

In reply to Al Evans:
Presumably they all had better things to do. The washing up perhaps.

In reply to Yanchik:

Then why don't we get 'first male to climb 9b'?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

It's a highly sensitive issue John as you know but affirmative action is fairly well established, even if you don't agree with it.

In reply to Al Evans:

What makes you think that no women attended?

I don't have a list but they were there in force.

And it was around 130 climbers I think.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Inconsistency ? Your guess is as good as mine, but I believe I may have answered your original question.

Y

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Different point, surely? Why does affimative action mean we have to say 'female' instead of 'woman'?

jcm

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Great article Leah, thanks.

Super shot of Lisa Rands on the Mandala - wow! Looks amazing. I'd love to do that problem. What a line.

Here's to 2009.

Jack

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

enjoy any article with pics of Alex Pucio in...... WOWSERS

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
And the same goes for 'female' as a noun.
Er,since when was "female" not a noun ?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

I'll look forward to the article on Male Achievements 2008

In reply to Al Evans: There were plenty of women invited to the number 10 bash, and quite a lot attended. There were a few old women there too!

In reply to Postmanpat: 'female' can be an adjective too.

And not all the climbers in the article were women.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Chill out ya mardy old git! HA!

In reply to Ian Dunn: Errrrm if thats true they were not in the list of total attendees in the latest CC newsletter, not just CC members, I will investigate?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Sorry Mick was just going on the only list of attendees that I have seen published.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Thanks for that Jack.

Can I just say that though, that the photo of Lucy Creamer and the pigeon is truly awful. I've seen it used before (on here maybe?) and I can't imagine why a stock photo of a top female climber should: A: show her looking a bit rough (no offense intended, I always look rough) B: show her apparently lying down on a rock, rather than climbing it and C: include a pigeon!!!???

Sorry about that, but as professional photographer & picture editor too, I just though I'd make the observation.

Cheers,
Tom

In reply to Al Evans:

That was a list of CC members who attended, not the total attendee list. The list maybe says more about the CC than anything else?

In reply to Strife:

Well yes,doh ! JCM appeared to be objecting to it's use as a noun.

In reply to Postmanpat:

I can only think of two acceptable contexts for its use as a noun; one is the phrase 'the female of the species', where it's clearly either a sort of weird collective noun or part of an ellipse, and police crime reports, where obviously all grammatical considerations go out of the window anyway.

I still want to know why wimmin writers prefer it. Anyone got any idea.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Where is the word 'female' used as a noun in the article?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


A lot of the best female climbers are quite young and it's not usual to call girls under 18 "women". After that some women prefer being called "girls" and some hate it. Personally I've never given a toss.

In reply to HughM:

I wondered about that, but it also shows that only one member was there because he was CC, the others are by default by chance members because they are officials of the BMC etc, I would have thought some CC ladies are emminent enough tohave made it?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Chill John, the English language wasn't frozen on a Thursday afternoon in late February 1961 at a minor public school in Surrey.

I've quite come around to sending routes. But then to me when I'm in a good mood, everyone is dude. Stephen will set you right: http://www.stephenfry.com/media/audio/109/series-2-episode-3--language/

Happy Xmas dude.

In reply to Liam Copley:
She married Sam W.

In reply to abarro81: haha oh yeah forgot about that

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Well,in my 1966 edition of the OED,which is basically the 1946 edition reprinted, the word "female" is listed as noun or adjective. I don't think that would have been much to do with affirmitive action.I think you are barking up completely the wrong tree.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I had similar thoughts. However, I thought that while my use of the English language is, arguably, better than hers, she's a much, much better climber than I am!

We've all got our strengths and weaknesses I suppose.

I have no idea why "female" was used in preference to "woman" or "girl". I have a suspicion that there wasn't a sound reason for it.

I still can't see where 'female' was used as noun in the article, so I have no idea what all the fuss is about.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
thanks for the article Leah, but you forgot one young lady off the list in the trad section, Hazel Findlay! who is making very impresive on-sight and groung up accents all over the uk and the world.

thnks for all the good reading meterial ukc keep up the good work

In reply to Strife:

When describing Beth Rodden as the first 'female' to do something or other.

Rereading that I might also have mentioned 'got' the second ascent of something. Whatever happened to 'made'?? This one is particularly irritating as not merely being silly yoofspeak but also betraying a rather nastily shifted set of values.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: It's the substantive use of an adjective is it not? I prescribe a few nights in with Bradley's Arnold for you.

In reply to John2:

It's undoubtedly the substantive use of an adjective, but then so are lots of other grammatical errors I could mention.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/features/chref/chref.py/main?query...

"noun 1 sometimes derog a woman or girl.

So there we have it, "female" is a noun.

I'm sure we all agree it's not the most well-written article in the world, but it seems a shame to be focussing on such trivial matters as the use of the word "female", rather than the female achievements the article is about.

In reply to fool:

Of course it's a noun, but I still maintain that its proper and idiomatic use is confined to certain contexts of which this is not one.

As to your other point, I see we agree: my original point was precisely that we wouldn't have been discussing such trivial matters had the editors translated the article into something approximating to conventional written English.

Anyway, I did try to discuss female climbing achievements, but no-one answered me. Is it in fact true that Katy Whittaker has made the youngest ever ascent of an E7, and am I right that Marietta Uhden has also climbed 8c+? The answer seems to be that no-one knows or cares.

(I thought there was some fairly well known picture of MU swinging up rightwards towards the camera through a roof into a groove, on some route which I thought was said to be 8c+. Anyone else remember that?)

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Thousands of people have read Leah's article. One person has been carping endlessly about grammar.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I think:

A) It is in fact true that Katy is the youngest (known to us) female/woman/girl/whatever you deem to be acceptable English <yawn> to climb E7, and the article is written in the context of 'ascents by women/girls/<yawn>'. Yes this could have been explained more thoroughly, but in my opinion, you already know the answer to the question you are asking.

B) You're incorrect, Marietta Uhden hasn't climbed 8c+. This is of course not a fact, but my best guess. I haven't asked her personally. She climbed 8c in 2001.

I care, but to be honest I was totally put off answering your questions because I think your contribution to this thread has been fairly painful and pointless.


Jack

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

A great article Leah which, not only reports on the achievements of the climbers mentioned but through the interviews looks into the feelings of climbers climbing at this level.

Its a shame that the focus of responses to it has been on grammer rather than on the actual content and quality of the article.

Congratulations on your achievements this year Leah and to the other climbers mentioned.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

I didn't know, actually. I've no idea who the youngest person to climb E7 is nor how old Katy W is. And I suspect I am not the least informed reader in this regard. It would have been easier to say what you meant in the first place.

I don't know about 'incorrect' about MU. It was a question. Thanks for your reply.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I also enjoyed the article, but the use of 'send' in the introduction had me squirming. My hate for that term knows no bounds.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=328050

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I wonder why you are just picking on Leah's review article as all of them contain some interest for the truely 'anal' grammarian?

I for one am glad that a young writer (who afterall probably spends most of her free time climbing) has produced such an article. I would encourage her to continue in the same vein, to produce clear, informative text and to ignore archaic debates on the more obscure 'rules' of grammar or the political intersection of feminism and linguistics. Afterall this is hardly 'burns, bras and leaves'.

In reply to Offwidth:
It's obvious, surely? I hate all women and can't bear to see their achievements celebrated in print. What other explanation could there be?


I had rather imagined I was encouraging the same thing.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Don't print off UKC articles then - just read them on the screen. Or has "in print" come to mean something else now?

I thought it was a good enough article and I was far happier to gloss over a few grammatical anomalies therein, than I was to read your rather persistent hectoring on this thread.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Maybe a lazy knee-jerk response (to use more perfectly clear jargon).