UKC

In reply to Garbh Coire:

That's a couple of complete cocks.

In reply to Garbh Coire: You'd think that the fact thye were probably constantly tripping and slipping in their crampons, that it would actually be easier without them?

In reply to Garbh Coire: Couple O' Fannies indeed.

In reply to Garbh Coire:

Don't they get Good Karma points for wearing helmets?

In reply to The Lemming:


OK, here's a provocative question: how much harm does this sort of carry-on actually do?

Obviously if you start pulling blocks out that's harm (probably to your own face). And if you take out the turf, that's bad news as well. But-- crampon scratches on rock? Are they such a big deal? Aren't you going to get them anyway when, e.g., folks climb the route in fresh spindrift? You see them all over the place on popular routes as things are, don't you?

I'm not trying to annoy here; I'm asking to be informed.

In reply to Tim Chappell:
If they had to do a mixed route in that kind of nick, fingers is probably the best option (though you'd still wonder, why????) as theres absolutely no turf on it. Would imagine the pitch below the fingers would be horribly loose when unfrozen though....

In reply to Tim Chappell: When the cracks and ledges are covered/full of ice/snow, they are at least getting some protection (Small) from tools, and poons. Such conditions are deemed winter, and poons and axes give benefit to the climber.

The OP's pic, is certainly not winter conditions, and the climbers would not be gaining anything from wearing poons, and axes - whilst at the same time, trashing the rock for no real reason.

Just my 2p's worth.

In reply to Malcolm:

It's pretty bloody loose when it is frozen!

I speak from experience here...

In reply to drunken monkey:


Thanks-- so in summary you're saying (1) what they're doing is dangerous for them, and (2) they're trashing the rock?

It's this 'trashing the rock' I want explained a bit more. It doesn't seem evident to me that they are doing any damage that wouldn't be done by a powder-snow ascent.

In reply to Tim Chappell: I dunno if it would be dangerous for them - But its certainly not required on that route, in those conditions.

In reply to drunken monkey: Ive seen you climbing and you look like youre wearing poons on your hands AND feet.

In reply to Bossys gran: Anything goes in winter.

The great Heavy taught me everything he knows.

In reply to drunken monkey: Was that 110th time he did the munros or the 111th????

In reply to Garbh Coire: Big deal. We've all climbed in less than classic conditions, let's be honest about this. Let he cast the first stone and all that....it's not exactly virgin rock up there.

In reply to Garbh Coire:

Looks like "Greg and Adam" may be the unfortunate sods who are about to be slaughtered for an ascent last Saturday. Check (entry for Sun 21st December):-

http://www.climbnow.co.uk/conditions/

In reply to studge:
I highly doubt there's any snow on the ledges in that photo ... can't see any white stuff at all. I know a climb looks considerably less white from below than it does from above, but still!

In reply to Garbh Coire: Who gives a f*ck

In reply to Garbh Coire: It seems a poor choice given that several gullies and sheltered mixed routes were in condition. As long as they didn't dislodge rocks or remove turf then thered be no more rock scratching than usual. Silly route choice and weird thing to do, but fingers hasn't got too much turf on it.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

OK Tim,
Here's is what a fair amount of folks would think (a few of my pals that can't be bummed posting on the net anyway). I feel quite safe in speaking for the group.

Trashing the rock is not an argument I,we, buy. When winter climbing we mark the rock unless there is fat ice covering it and that's that.
The argument I think hinges more on what defines a "winter ascent". The debate and cyber feuds really are on what people claim they have done.
It's all done to trust, credibility... and honesty.

If you climb a route with 3 inches thick hoar frost, it will be white, cold and hard to find pro and holds. This is what I, we, seek... a challenge.

What these guys, which could well be beginners and thus ignorant of what makes winter conditions, are climbing is not winter in anyways (as every body has agreed here). Indeed, they would have been better off taking crampons and axes off and rock climb it.

BTW, it's a pleasant enough alternative if you bother yourself to go all the way and find nothing in. Pick a diff and rock climb it in beg boots... always a day out.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

This has always been my beef with snowed up rock too.

Assuming the same team (with the same neat climbing style) goes and does a route in completely bare rock condition and completely hoared up undeniably winter condition, I find it hard to argue from the perspective of rock damage that they can do any less damage in winter condition (since the worst they can do is climb it as precisely and neatly as they do in bare rock condition), and will be more likely, since they have to scrape snow off everything, to actually damage the rock more.

I'm not excusing climbing rock routes with axes and crampons when they are bare, by the way, I'm questioning why climbing them when covered in hoar is so much more acceptable.......

AJM

In reply to Garbh Coire:
Can't fool me I know that is Windgather rocks in Staffordshire

In reply to AJM: Alot of those routes, need a freeze to glue loose blocks together.

The difference snow makes is that it then makes sense to use axes and crampons as the route will be easier with them. In the sate its in, in the pic itd be easier with boots and your hands.

In reply to JoeL 90:

It might well be easier with hands and gloves, but who cares really? If they have a different idea of what they want from their "winter" climbing, and are causing no more damage than anyone else, then why argue?

Loose blocks - a good point. I suppose my problem has always come from the snowed up rock routes which are well regarded rock climbs, which they usually aren't when covered in loose blocks.

My personal slant on this has always been that I'm psyched by snow, ice, frozen turf, frozen mud, and mixtures of the above. I'm not that driven by hoar frost on rock, particularly if its a classic rock route I'm going to end up furiously scratching up. Maybe thats just me, thats no problem, but it then irks me when people complain about out of season ascents on the dubious basis that they damage the rock - so does every other ascent with axes and crampons on. If you want to complain based on ethics the thats another matter.

AJM

In reply to AJM:


I was about to post something similar but agree with everything you say.

Thanks for those responses, folks. Interesting. So to summarise:

1. Climbing black rock with winter kit may be a bit more dangerous than climbing it properly, in rock boots, but it can't be that much more dangerous because, after all, people do go dry-tooling.
2. Climbing black rock with winter kit is not going to do any real damage beyond a few scratches, which you'd get anyway under powder, provided you really are on rock.
3. There again, if you're on turf with winter kit, obviously you're going to destroy it very quickly.
4. A lot of the force of people's objections to black rock 'winter' climbing comes from the sense that if you climb it without snow, ice, or even hoar, then you shouldn't be claiming the tick.

Is that about it?

In reply to Garbh Coire:
Since it was my photo used in the OP perhaps I should wade in.

From a distance we spotted a guy in an orange helmet on what looked like the first pitch of Fingers Ridge but as we got closer all I could see was a team in Red Gully (very thin but just about in), one of whom was wearing an orange helmet. I must have been mistaken I thought. Oh no no. Orange helmet number two was suddenly spotted unmistakedly on the ridge. Click! Picture taken and shared with you all.

By the time I plodded up the goat track and walked onto the plateau I overheard the team talking to someone who was very suspicious of their climb. The lead climber claimed the first pitch had snow cover, it was thin in the middle and they had climbed the last pitch in boots and gloves.

Well, the first pitch did have snow on it if you class the approach from the goat track as the first pitch; I personally couldn't see anything of substance in the middle and, well, we can see the upper section of the route in the pic. You can also see the crampons on the second.

Hopefully without sounding xenophobic, the gentlmen in question did have a distinctly southern accent from some part of Englandshire. I overheard them saying they had climbed each day from Friday till Monday. Some of those days were horrendous so they undoubtedly have balls to be out in those conditions but I also thought, is this a case of, "we've travelled all this way so we're doing something come what may" In a storm or on a route which is clearly not in any suitable condition, something is getting done each day before we go home!

I'd suggest that they knew their stuff which made it all the more suprising that they chose this route when they had the ability to try something else or go further afield in search of something that was in. Worryingly someone else scampered over and asked what they had done. When he said Fingers Ridge the new chap (also far travelled from some part of Englandshire) seemed quite excited and declared he may have a go tomorrow!!

I have another pic of the team in action to stoke the fire a bit more. It's a bit out of focus but shows more of the very black ridge so I'll stick it on to get people even more hot under their fleecy collars.

In reply to The brainn:


Unless someone gives me a good reason not to, I'm going to cast my vote with Mr Brainn here: What IS the big deal?

OK, Fingers Ridge in those conditions is not a valid winter ascent. That apart, Fingers Ridge in those conditions-- if you're really, really keen to at least knock some paint off your crampon points before you have to bugger off back to Leighton Buzzard or wherever-- seems quite a good route choice really. If you must dry-tool, at least dry-tool on something that already has no turf on it.

So unless there's something else to this debate that I've missed, the Style-Purity Nazis should put their handcuffs away; if people want to climb Fingers Ridge in winter kit when it's black, that's their affair.

In reply to Garbh Coire:

Seems like the calendar dictates what is a winter climb these days rather than the conditions.

As long as no damage is done to the vegetation and rock etc, then no problems.
Surpose if the pic was posted in July, we'd all just say " a wet summer climb".

In reply to Garbh Coire:
What are you all on about?!

Any fool can see it is plastered in verglas.

In reply to AJM: I agree with you. As long as people aren't damaging routes for other i dont care what they get up to. All i was saying is using crampons and axes in those conditions is making it harder than it needs to be.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

The deal is, if you want to do dry tooling, go south to the Dover chalk cliffs...
No more seriously, if we, as a climbing community cannot explain to and keep in check the new comers, how will they know the difference between climbs you can damage and those that will take a few scratches?

Some climbs will/are get/getting trashed. Having the hoar and frost as a guideline, at least insures that the crag is about freezing level.

Also, it is about ethics. If you want to try dry tooling, fair enough but not on well known winter venues.
If you want to go BMXing do you go on cycling speed track? No you don't.
If you want to play the electric guitar do you go to a symphonic orchestra? No you don't (unless invited because of your talent).
If you want to drive a quad do you go on a mountain bike trail? No you don't.

If you allow one, you open the flood gates and it's gone.

Now we're no Hitlers either. Name and shame. ok some for the people that should know better... and still better talk than shout.
My concern is for newbies coming to it. THEY need to know what the norm is and not think that that type of unethical climbing is fine and what "winter climbers do".

I have made mistakes, not that bad thank f*ck, and stood corrected by more experienced people who subsequently showed me what it was about... and god the experience was 10,000 times better for it.

In reply to duntelchaig midge:
Axes still strapped to yellow sac?

In reply to JoeL 90:

Whilst I agree with the sentiment of this thread, it highlights a sadly elitist point of view.

ie it's wrong to "try tool" a classic easy rock route, but many winter climbers have applauded a "winter" ascent of Snicker Snack on Gable with ice tools just becasue it is decorated with hoar frost, which damages the classic E3 finger crack "summer" route

In reply to Garbh Coire:

looks like salvaging the day by having a scramble up the ridge.

what's the crime ?


this scene is reenacted all year in Snowdonia ... ?

In reply to French Erick:

Can you tell me which climbs we are allowed to damage and those that 'will take a few scratches'?

I've been up the like of Bowfell Buttress in summer and it has been scratched to f*ck by winter climbers but you would condone this if it has been scratched under a bit of powder snow? TBH the scratches didn't bother me at all.



How does hoar frost or the temp being below 0c save the rock?

In reply to French Erick:


How does saying that anyone who climbs routes out of condition is wrong do this? All it does is tells people that you can't do it - no explanation as to what routes you can trash and what you can't........


Which makes what difference to the scratches - rock doesn't change that much as the temperature goes below freezing?


What, better on lowland crags covered in good rock routes that aren't getting scratched in the same way that those on high mountain crags already are? No difference in damage between "winter condition" and not on something like Savage Slit for example, so why not concentrate the damage in one place?


Difference is that these inconvenience or harm other people's enjoyment - a crucial difference...

AJM

In reply to Ian McNeill:

Really? Which routes????

In reply to French Erick:


Sorry, but the contradiction between (1) and (2) just about sums up the worst of the elitist attitude that sadly goes with along so much of Scottish winter climbing.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
Could you expand?
As a) my limited brain power did not quite understand what was criticised here (mind you I got that something was criticised)?
b) I would be chuffed to think I could belong to the Scottish elite, but that me interpreting the answer to my advantage... but realistically I'm but a punter that has a few opinions and will take responsibility for his posts.

As I said, I was a newbie not so long ago. Worse I was a newbie from the continent where ethics are different.
Alpine ethics are best kept to alpine setting. Incidentally, much as I love Scotland hills, I would not describe them as alpine. They still remain challenging nonetheless, especially if you stick to certain rules.

After all, why do rugby players bothers themselves with an oval ball,aim at aiming forward but aren't allowed to throw forward? Because it's fun, and it's rugby.
Nothing elitist in having winter climbing "rules", is there?

Would you agree or disagree with me Nick? Whatever your answer I want you to justify your view (in a 5,000 essay due on Christmas Eve).

In reply to French Erick:
I will partake further to this maelstrom of opinions with fellow climbers tomorrow... but for now after a beast of a session bouldering, I ache and stink, so shower and bed methinks.

In reply to French Erick: Sports have rules that are written down, black or white, right or wrong. Climbing is not a sport. It doesn't have rules that are written down. It is open to interpretation. But all too frequently those with considerable experience trample over the intepretation of those with less experience as if being experienced means the experienced own the rule book. There isn't a rule book.

In reply to Garbh Coire: Its a fairly stable rock route that is better in winter and as much as I think 'who are they trying to kid?' it makes not one bit of difference to any of us.
If someone was to try it on a turf route then they really are putting themselves at great risk as well as stripping the turf which is a shame for the route.
What would you honestly say to them once at the top? "Interesting route choice guys" So shake your head and move on.
It does however provide a good debate on snowed up rock ethics.

In reply to Garbh Coire:

There are a few different issues involved in this argument.

1. Jealousy. These guys have done something when others might not have done. Whatever the nick I'm jealous of anyone climbing when I'm not therefore I seek to negate / demean their efforts.

2. Scottish Winter Climbing (SWC) is a funny old business. For snowed up rock it's a bit like this: Wait for the snow to fall to make the route harder then clear all the snow off to find and climb the rock underneath.

Why not cut out the middle stage and just climb it with no snow on? To your American and your European (French Erick aside) this is entirely logical and as pointed out above it isn't really harming anyone. In fact this kind of climbing has always gone on in Scotland.

The trouble is this is not SWC.

People are passionate about the history and traditions of SWC, hence the lively debate. This tradition involves only climbing a route when it is in acceptable winter nick ie. white. If you climb fingers ridge in that nick then you've done a V-Diff not a grade IV. It's not the style that's important it's being honest with yourself and others. You wouldn't claim an onsight if you'd sat on the gear?

In reply to DaveHK:


Exactly. The only objective debate is about what you claim the ascent as and not the damage you do because the latter is disengenuous if you are prepared to climb the same route under powder snow/hoar frost.

I remember making the same point to good ol' Norrie a couple of years back and he agreed.

In reply to Only a hill:

i was there. Not to discount the ascent at all but the clibers could not have claimed to have climber Fingers Ridge in winter conditions. it was rock climb in crampons and axes.

In reply to JoeL 90:

Every single route virtualy in the NCs is damaged by lean conditions ascents, in other words out of condition.. hence the fact the turf has virtually deserted the trade routes.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

No! This was simply not a winter ascent in anyones book. No forzen turf, no snow (at all) no verglas.

IF we start to accept these sort of ascents as winter ascents all summer ascent count too. Has anyone done Cenotaph Corner with winter gear?

In reply to Anonymous:

Not nice, not helpful, and (regardless of the strength of your views) totally unnecessary! So I'm going to put the Posting Guidelines to the test and see if 'Anonymous replies will also be frequently removed and always on request of other users.' (Only reason I can see why your delightful contribution might be allowed to stand is that I'm not Tim Chappell and you're not replying to me.)

In reply to petestack:

Too much prawn cocktail water tonight for me! I will drive through Gleann Comhainn tomorrow though and get the beef in.

In reply to Donald M:

Interesting! Looks like they've deleted Anonymous's little interjection, but left my quote of same. How curious (although at least it proves the system works and you can't just go name calling without putting your money where your mouth is)...

Now, do I report it again to get rid of the quote, or should that be left as a warning to all and sundry? :-/

In reply to petestack:

Loving your site particularly the picture of Ceann Loch Lìobhainn.

Off for some smoking bacon water now.

In reply to Donald M:

The turf is a different issue (and valid) to climbing pure rock routes.



Why not, it was polished to hell 19 years ago when I did it. I don't see what differencen some scratches are going to make to it.........

In reply to Donald M:

Thanks. So perhaps I should go bilingual with the place names, although that might look a little pretentious given my mere smattering of Gaelic?


Enjoy!

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

But Nick, it's that attitude and respect for ethics (and adventure) that sets us out from the rest of the winter climbing world.

If people are allowed to get away with claiming a winter tick for a route like fingers in the conditions clearly shown in the pictures, then whats to stop someone from claiming they can climb E5 because they were dragged up it on 2nd by a guide?

It's all about the ethics of what you claim, and for a widely recognised winter tick, ethics and ethos of Scottish Winter climbing say it must appear white and wintery.

Have a look at the pic again?

I climbed savage slit in worse conditions this year and was happy to claim it as a summer tick.

In reply to Simon22:

Its just nature's way of restoring some friction ( This threads gone all Daily Mail)

In reply to rusty_nails:

Oh no! Someone might claim a harder winter tick than I can!

In reply to jacob davies:
surely what they claim is irrelevant and should not bother anyone ! after all it isn,t a new route or first repeat. i would add though i personally find this to be out of order everyone who is honest can see that crampons and axes where must definately NEEDED for this ascent and they have caused damage what isn,t a result of winter climbing ! i understand why people ask questions about routes in hoar frost etc (snicker snack being a stated example mentioned) i was under the impression to class as a winter route it needs to be winter in appearence (snow,ice,hoar frozen turf etc) and EASIER to climb with winter kit than boots and gloves no ?

by the way if you have seen pictures from the first ascent of snicker snack it was most definately NOT going to be lead in 5:10,s and bare hands that day.

jas wood @ work (sans log in) working christams frikin eve :O(

In reply to Anonymous:
whoops should read- poons and axes most definately NOT needed. i,m tired...........

In reply to rusty_nails:
Why should everyone be forced to follow what a few people claim as scottish winter climbing ethnics? Someone might think that the use of cams is unethnical as it reduces protection placing skills, just for example, but they wouldn't try to impose their views on everyone else, unless they were an idiot.

Somehow can't sleep (Christmas excitement?)

So, here's the morale of the post: Do not enter arguments about Non Winter Climbers about what constitutes conditions they will not, or chose not, understand!

At least I know that what I do gets me some recognition from the people I think have credibility in THIS sport... The others think I am an elitist, pontificating idiot that will spoil the fun of their new toys (axes/crampons), since it would be a crime not to use them after carting them about the hills.

In reply to Donald M: The turf has long gone in the NC's due mainly to the amount of traffic. But agree that Pooning it up routes in summer nick aint exactly helping!

In reply to fishy1: You got it the wrong way round mate - it's the majority trying to force a few, not a few trying to force the majority.

Same with cams - they're commonplace and you are expected to use them. If one person came along and started saying they were unethical, well, that's his opinion, but I doubt many people would change their ways.

What conditions constitute "Scottish winter conditions" have slowly evolved over the years and are mainly based on the type of climbing we have and the prevailing weather conditions. It makes sense.

In reply to French Erick:


What happened to the enjoyment? Or does the enjoyment come from not only climbing things but climbing them in a way that "the great and the good" would approve of.

As for the comment about Non Winter Climbers failing to understand - a cheap shot to try and tar anyone who doesn't agree with your opinions as a no-nothing? I understand how the current ethic works on this kind of thing, I just happen to think its wrong and partly based on often spurious logic that doesn't really hold together very well.

In response to whoever said that ethics have changed - yes, they have. My personal belief is that thats generally been for the worse for some of the routes in question (the popular good rock climbs which are basically turf free - I've an old guide from years back where Savage Slit for example is described as a route that rarely comes in because the chimney takes too long to fill with ice) and hence I find the pointless drawing of lines based on spurious arguments about how damaging it is laughable.

Draw the line based on ethics if you want, but do be aware that those ethics aren't set in stone moral compasses that harken back to the great history of the sport. The ethics around acceptable snowed up rock are comparatively recent in terms of the history of Scottish Winter and have been through significant sea change over that period.

AJM

In reply to Garbh Coire:

Retards...we all know some!

In reply to rusty_nails:

Climbing is about enjoying the route itself for yourself, if you really want to show off about your exploits I suggest you take up a more spectator friendly sport.

In reply to timjones: I agree completely with that.

Since when has it been about about claiming this and claiming that? It's about getting a day out in the hills in my book rather than what I go round saying I've done, as I'm sure it is with you yoo.hapyp Christmas dude!

In reply to Donald M:

I don't know, has anyone? What's that got to do with this discussion?

In reply to Garbh Coire: Mmmmmh... Though it turned up to be quite an interesting thread UKC style, there's something i don't understand.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but all we know of the people in the photo is that they travelled up to Scotland and did a route that had no ice/snow on it. They have not claimed to have done a winter ascent of fingers ridge, or have they? So why are they getting such a slagging?

In reply to duntelchaig midge: "the gentlmen in question did have a distinctly southern accent from some part of Englandshire"

Surprise, surprise...

In reply to Garbh Coire:

Without wishing to get dragged into this , a couple of points of info from someone who was there on Saturday:

There WAS a lot of ice and verglas about, especially on ledges. The temperature was well below freezing a turf was near-perfect. Don't know about the rest of the route, but you definately couldn't have done the guidebook pitch one without crampons.

If someone was claiming a significant repeat like Mort or Marathon Corner in these conditions I'd probably be scornful. For the 14,372nd ascent of Fingers I'm more ambivalent, although I wouldn't have done it myself.

In reply to Jamie B.: Good to know you agree, despite the waffle.

In reply to fishy1:

Because ethics are the fundament of all aspects of climbing, not just winter, and are accepted by the vast majority, not just a minority. When something new like cams, curved picks or chalk are introduced they are seen to be of sufficient positive benefit to obtain a groundswell approval with the majority that they become acceptable ethics. Things like pof and chipping, for example, are not.

In reply to Mr Lopez:

According to the link posted above by studge, 'Greg and Adam were out yesterday in the Northern Corries where they climbed Fingers Ridge Direct. They really enjoyed the route saying the route had good snow on the ledges, bomber turf and ice in the cracks.'

But perhaps that agrees at least partially with Jamie's assessment? It's impossible to tell from the photo (although it doesn't look in winter nick to me), but surely some of the vitriol they've been subjected to here is worse than anything they've done!

In reply to Mr Lopez:
my beef is that they have climbed a route that is not in winter nick (nobody can claim it was surely ?) using poons and axes.IF they where in big boots and gloves then it wouldn,t be a debate, i personally am not bothered what ascent they claim nor should anyone else but this is basically dry tooling in the scottish hills and i,m sure you lot north of the border don,t want this to become common place ?

the whole issue of snowed up rock routes is another issue but the defining facts between a viable ascent and the case stated is the route should appear winter in appearence (it doesn,t) AND is easier to climb with poons and axes (it doesn,t look to be) or am i wrong in thinking this way ?

top and bottom of it is most people have climbed in marginal conditions but this is another level in my opinion and should we take the ground of they aren,t harming anyone and let this become common practice ? i certainly don,t want that to happen.

jas

In reply to Garbh Coire:
Who says this pair have "claimed" a winter ascent? Maybe they have "claimed" an alpine ascent, or similar. I've climbed Fingers ridge a couple of times in summer, and a couple of times in winter. Maybe covered in verglass, as it possibly was, it would be somewhere inbetween, and I can understand why crampons may well have been sensible.

I am not advocating climbing winter routes out of condition where they would suffer damage (i.e. unfrozen turf), but if there is a route to be done in this style, a turfless Fingers Ridge would be one of the less contencious choices. Many of the Nevis ridges are climbed in "alpine" conditions after all, and "claimed" as just than - "alpine ascents".

In reply to kevin stephens:

The photograph is all we can see, is black rock and as some one else noted axes on a ruck sack, thats what i was referring to carrying equipment for effect rather than function, but thats the angle of the photo for you, Im sure that if the picture was take from above looking down it would show a different coulour.

and for being reenacted in Snowdonia, Take your pick of wet horrible days, when its not possible to climb - take your self to say north or east face ridge of Tryfan spot the teams scrambling salvaging the best of their time in the park.

I have done a few classic mixed routes in Scotland and Wales - which were truly "in winter conditions" not this light dusted frosted state... which seems to be a green light to many today.

As for the active promotion of Dry tooling it does seem daft to me - looks like nothing more than a great opportunity for old piles of cemented rock to be used again.

If it were acceptable to scratch your way up the routes with a vernier of ice, I for one would have amassed a huge number of Mixed ascents in Snowdonia.

But the whole sale destruction of routes with crampons and axes should not be encouraged at at the cost harming classic routes.

Will we see dry tooling on Stanage next year ?

In reply to Jamie B.:
if like you say there was ice and verglas on the ledges and it was easier to climb with poons and axes then i have no issue other than it appearing to be marginal.
interesting that you state you wouldn,t have done it yourself, why ? (feel free to tell me to mind my own !)

jas

In reply to duntelchaig midge:

When was this actually taken? It says 22 Dec on the picture, and the two guys who are getting slagged by name are claiming an ascent on Sat 20. It's also obvious with very little checking that they at least live in Scotland, so it may be a case of mistaken identity. They are also very clear about their view about conditions on their blogs.

Also, all I can see on this picture is someone belaying wearing crampons, rather than someone dry-tooling up the last pitch. How do we know he didn't subsequently remove them to climb, realising it would be easier just in boots?

In reply to Ian McNeill:



are you saying it,s acceptable so long as it isn,t a classic route ?

In reply to Martin76:

Um, good point! But I'm sorry, I naturally assumed that the person posting a link with names had actually checked the dates first... :-O

In reply to petestack:

Lynch first, don't bother with questions later. That's the UKC way.

In reply to Martin76:

Perhaps. But it's not my way, and (despite not checking for myself when I should have done) it's a pity nobody picked that up earlier!

In reply to Garbh Coire: What a stupid comment.

In reply to Chris F:

Ethics appear to be defined by a few highly vocal bigots rather than this "vast majority" that you speak of ;(

In reply to petestack:

Wasn't aimed at you. More a comment on the collective hysteria that infects these threads.

In reply to Martin76: Hopefully climbing with a guy who know Greag in the new year so will be interesting to hear what he's heard about this ascent.

Having been right beside fingers on sat while in Broken gully can defiantly say there was no snow on ledges, verglass on rock or ice in cracks on the last two pitches. The rest of the climb also looked entirely black (only a little snow in the corner of the original route) which makes it very much out of condition in my mind!

In reply to timjones: FFS, why continue to defend the undefendable!?

In your mind, I suppose black is actually white, and vice versa?

In reply to petestack:

Aye but we all know how much conditions can change over the space of a couple of days....... Begs the question - are they actually claiming a winter ascent?

My concern would be that they're sending out the message that it's Ok to effectively dry tool in the Northern Corries. While this is not a disaster on Fingers Ridge where there is no turf, if folk were to follow their lead on other routes where there is still turf left then there is surely an issue there to be addressed?

In reply to drunken monkey: This is probably the future of winter climbing in Scotland, you'd better put your waterproof on and get used to it since it in this 'nick' more than any other!

In reply to Garbh Coire:

Because we all have a slightly different take on these things and I'm prepared to recognise that there's no way that I can make any valid judgement on the need for crampons from that photo? Why do you continue to rant on in such an offensive manner?

It's a mountain ridge in a mountain location and someone went out and climbed it in a style that has done none of us any harm. It's not exactly a classis single pitch test piece on delicate rock. Why not live with it instead of spouting puerile judgemental waffle?

IIRC you seemed impressed by the ascent of The God Delusion, surely that ascent must have done as much and possibly even more damage than this one. It's not just a black and white issue as I'm sure you know!

In reply to Martin76:

Didn't think it was. But thanks anyway.

In reply to Grit Wraith: Na.

In reply to Toby S:

Yes, but the ascent reported in that blog was two days *before* the photo, so could conceivably have been done in decent conditions. (Some still say no, but I just dunno because I wasn't there!)

In reply to Toby S:

Maybe we should credit everyone with a bit of common sense instead of adopting an unthinking approach that condemns anyone who does any route in what we feel may be less than perfect conditions? It might also be a good idea to remember that these guys didn't send out any message, they haven't said anything about their ascent. It's the moaning naysayers that have given it so much publicity with their puerile name and shame attitude.

Is it just possible that the publiicty and photo's of The God Delusion sends out a far wider and more destructive message?

In reply to timjones:

Not true and has never been the case? Are you talking about this issue specifically, or ethics in general?

In reply to timjones: For goodness sake Tom, you seem to be disregarding the most important thing here - the God Delusion was in condition, Fingers Ridge wasn't. Guy and Pete wouldn't have touched the route had it not been.

There are witnesses and photographs here - what else do you need?

Patience and perseverance - perhaps the most important components in the game - are definitely lacking here.

In reply to timjones:

??? Please qualify 'destructive' in this context.

The only publicity I'm aware of for TGD is Erik's thread & Jack's news. Guy and Pete haven't exactly been shouting it from the rooftops.

In reply to timjones:

Yep, I'd agree that the lynch mob mentality is far from helpful.

However if they climbed in Crampons and Axes then you have to wonder what their justification was for doing so on a route that clearly wasn't in Winter condition, there's nothing wrong with asking questions.

Like it or not The Cairngorms is a fragile mountain environment and climbers can quite often be under the microscope when it comes to how we treat said environment.

Is it just possible that the publiicty and photo's of The God Delusion sends out a far wider and more destructive message?

I'm not sure how? If anything it gives a positive slant on Scottish Winter climbing.

In reply to Garbh Coire:

Do you honestly think that the colour of the rock makes the difference between right and wrong? Surely the wiser view has to disregard such absurd benchmarks and take into account the damage that is done through a mere layer of rime?

In reply to Jamie B.:

Dude! You must have been there at a different time from me. I was there about 11am on the day in question and at no point did I notice verglas or anything like freezing temperatures. That doesnt mean though that the turf wasnt frozen from before which it probably was.

I feel a bit sorry for these guys being condemed as I myself have, I am sure, climbed Invernookie in similar conditions albeit climbing on the snow but the las wee bit must have been dry.

In reply to timjones:

YES!

In reply to Removed User:

Absolutely agreed! But, to play Devil's Advocate for a moment, the only publicity we're aware of for this ascent of Fingers Ridge (since it turns out that the blog climbers were up there two days earlier) is duntelchaig midge's photo, which was presumably not 'commissioned' by its subjects. So have they exactly been shouting it from the rooftops either?

In reply to petestack: They wouldn't do though, would they?

In reply to timjones: Not done any Scottish winter climbing, have you?

In reply to Removed User:

Personally I don't see an issue with either the Fingers Ridge climb or the God Delusion. What struck me as odd was that folks that condemn the Fingers Ridge photo are keen to congartulate on the ascent of the God Delusion. In terms of potential damage to the rock I struggle to see any significant difference both are pretty minor.

In terms of the climbing ethics I guess both teams felt good at the end of the day and maybe we should be happy for both of them instead of condemning one team and licking the arses of the others

In terms of the message sent out I'm sure the God Delusion will do more to
encourage people out to hook theur way up rock routes than a photo of Fingers Ridge ever will. The irony is that the Fingers Ridge ascent would have zero impact on other peoples attitudes if someone hadn't tried to use it to publicise their own narrow agenda

In reply to petestack:

From what I can work out the blog climbers are not the same guys who climbed FR on Monday.

In reply to Garbh Coire:

Wrong again

In reply to timjones: The 'narrow agenda' you talk of, is the vey essence of my sport. Not that you would understand, of course.

In reply to petestack:

No, they haven't. I was only commenting on Tim using TGD as a comparison, which I don't think is valid.

In reply to Donald M:

Yep, I think we're all agreed on that since Martin76 pointed it out.

In reply to duntelchaig midge:



So whats the fuss - the approach pitch and middle pitch had some snow /ice cover of some sort - hence there wore poons and used axes then on the top pitch they climbed in boots and gloves as it was dry. Now this seems to me to be a logical way to deal with their situation and good sense! As for rock damage then I there was probably less than if it had been in full nick - no scrapping of hoar and powder - placements/hooks much more obvious. Get over it people, they were just having a good day out in the hills!

In reply to Garbh Coire:

You seem to be making the error of assuming that the poor guys in the photo want to play by your narrow set of rules.

Is it just possible that they want to enjoy themselves in their own way, whilst doing no harm to you or I and without being subjected to unjust criticism by purists?

In reply to Donald M: Well theres nae poons or axes on show in that photo!

In reply to timjones:

TGD is a stunning new route, but it isn't a new style. Steep buttress climbing involving climbing rock features as opposed to turf features has been going on for quite a while. TGD isn't going to change anything, apart from inspiring a few folk to try harder.

In reply to drunken monkey:

Exactly and when we did it we couldnt even begin to think of it as a winter ascent even though it was very wintery.

I should clarify, and add a caveat below, that the guys we spoke to had crampons on when they topped out.

Caveat: This isnt meant as a personal attack at all - just a debate about what constitutes a winter ascent within the established practice of winter climbing in Scotland. No one doubts their climbing ability or that they climbed the route. What is in dispute is does it constitute an ascent under the term winter conditions as generally accepted in Scotland. I say no.

To the climbers though - stay motivated and taking advantage of the hills.

In reply to Removed User:

So the only real difference is that TGD is s new route and is visibly white in the photo's?

In reply to Garbh Coire:
Ridiculous!

In reply to timjones:

No, several other differences. see above.

In reply to Garbh Coire:

Ah yes, let's bring a bit of racism into the already bigotted world of Scottish winter climbing....

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

Put your dummy back in and look up race in a dictionary. It was an observation and not a crticism. You seem to want to feel victimised.

Of course, this is an internet forum and in the real world voice intonation etc can give a different message.

In reply to timjones:

No there isnt but as I have said the damage issue is not really relevant. It is the ethics man!

Either acent would cause scratching but I dont think that matters. Its the all the driving and flying related to climbing that causes the damage.

In reply to Donald M:

Enlighten me


The only other differnces I can see are pretty insignificant to my eyes.

Two climbers turned out hoping to climb a winter route, conditions weren't as good as they may have hoped, they climbed some or all of the route in crampons, hopefully enjoyed themesleves and went quietly home without shouting about it.

Big deal? I think not!

In reply to Donald M: How do I change my race to Scottish?

In reply to Garbh Coire: cocks the lot of you!

In reply to Donald M:

Yeah right. There's a clear implication behind it. Besides, why would I fell victimised? I'm Scottish.

In reply to timjones: How about climbing something IN winter condition for a wee start?

In reply to The Rorster:

What a helpful contribution!

In reply to Donald M:

You have you ethics, I have mine, these guys probably have an subtly different set. Live and let live?

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

He then went on to justify his comments, nothing racist about it! In fact if you knew the the person in question you'd realise he's not racist in the slightest.

In reply to timjones:

Completely live and let live, it makes no difference anyway whether someone is unhappy about it.

Do you think it was a winter ascent then?

In reply to studge: In reply to studge: actualy i think you'll find when Greg and Adam were on the route it was in totally acceptable winter nic(as the direct route follows a turfy crack). There was snow and ice on all the ledges and the turf was bullet proof with nevie on the not so steep parts. We also walked in on the sunday but turned back because of the lean conditions. So don't think you can put us in the same catagory as these dweebs in the pic at the top. So maybe if you spent more time climbing in the moutains and less time making you're self feel good when slagging people on forums, you would learn what acceptable winter conditions are. But i agree that the pic at the top of this thread is not in nic.

In reply to drunken monkey:

I'd love to. That doesn't give me the right to act like an arse when someone else gets out and does something perfectly harmless that I wouldn't choose to do myself.

If I acted like that my blood pressure would rocket every time I saw 22 idiots running around a muddy football pitch

In reply to Donald M:

Is anyone claiming it as a winter ascent and would it harm me or anyone else if they did?

In reply to Toby S: OK, maybe he's not racist, perhaps I used the not quite right word, apologies for that. It just reeks of gobbing off about English folk doing Scottish winter climbing bringing their supposedly dubious ethics.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

How dare the English have a different set of dubious ethics

In reply to timjones:

That's what I was trying to ascertain. It's not a winter ascent.... it is an ascent in winter though :0)

In reply to timjones:

Well i wont go into details as I feel guilty about reporting what others said without having spoken to them since, but.... the impression I got was that they thought it was a winter ascent.

Do you?

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

His point was that folk drive all the way up for a weekend and absolutely MUST get something done. It doesn't just apply to English people though does it? I'm sure climbers from Edinburgh can have the same attitide (and lets face it folk from Edinburgh are pretty much morally bankrupt ). I've seen it myself, climbers dragging themselves up a route that's barely in nick out of sheer desperation to get a route in. You want to go over and rip their blinkers off and shout 'LOOK!!! Pretty mountains, go explore, these are not the winter climbs you are looking for' :0)

In reply to Donald M: Tom's beyond help (and reason), I suspect...

In reply to Donald M:

How should I know i wasn't there

I haven't made a winter trip to Scotland for years after realising that Chamonix was just as accessible and offered more reliable conditions and longer days in October than Scotland does in it's winter season.

Looking at photo's on here I think we were very lucky with the conditions we regularly found in Glencoe and The Cairngorms 10 to 15 years ago.

In reply to Toby S: "(and lets face it folk from Edinburgh are pretty much morally bankrupt )"

And English

In reply to Garbh Coire:

At least he's capable of reading other peoples names properly

And he doesn't want or need your sort of help thank you

In reply to andymoin:

I've climbed routes that look white in rockshoes by brushing off snow and careful foot placement. Were they in or our of nick and does it really matter to anyone other than the climber on the route?

In reply to timjones: I thought you were Welsh?

In reply to Garbh Coire:

Not quite

In reply to Garbh Coire:
looks good Nic to me, I would of Climbed it wit haxes an cramps too

In reply to eraven99:

You at it again, sunshine? Merry Christmas.

In reply to eraven99:

Everyone's favourite troll is back! Welcome back.

In reply to Garbh Coire: Exactly. It's the essence of YOUR sport, not everyone else's, why should you impose your views on them. If someone wanted to play rugby for example, and allow passes forward, I wouldn't stop them, even though it isn't something I'd do, because it's up to them what they do.

In reply to Toby S:
hello,

In reply to fishy1: rules and ethics are very different... we dont have rules in climbing

In reply to fishy1: shutup

In reply to The Rorster:

In climbing we seem a little confused about the difference between rules and ethics

In reply to Anonymous:

Big words for an anonymous loser.

In reply to timjones:

I dont think anyone at all is confused. There are no rules but the ehtics say this is not a winter ascent. It couldnt be clearer.

In reply to Lord Spiff: did you actually read his post you fudge packer?

In reply to Donald M:


I don't think anyone is claiming it as anything?

In reply to Toby S: you,ve hit the nail on the head !

In reply to fishy1:
because it's up to them what they do.

what !! is it okay for me to put bolts in gritstone because i want to ? NO ITS FRIKIN NOT !

in my eyes if the route wasn,t in any form of winter nick (conflicting reports) then what they have done is dry tooled in the scottish mountains end of story.

the damage,ethics,or rights and wrongs are irrelavent the question is does the vast majority of climbers want to see dry tooling becoming common place in the scottish mountains ?

well do ya :O)

In reply to studge: I'd just like to say that is not me and greg. For one that picture is dated for Monday. On Saturday there was snow where that guy is sitting. Secondly, we climbed the direct and did a different finish to those guys. You should try asking if that is someone before suggesting it is. We climbed corner's on snow and ice, and every ledge no matter how small had snow and ice on it (perfectly exceptable when you look in the new scottish winter guide book and at the picture of Guy Robertson). I'm not in the habbit of climbing route out of condition as you would see if you looked at my blog (hughesmountaineering). I've seen enough near misses in the corries when working as a result of punters from down south refusing to except there routes are not in because they have made drive and don't want to go home empty handed. I find it hard to take a slagging for something I have not done and by people who hide behind some fake name.

I hope this is enough to clear my prematurely soiled name, but I don't really need the approval of the over opinionated armchair worriors.

Adam

In reply to petestack:

Fair enough

In reply to Garbh Coire: Nothing like being racist as well. Good job these folk are not black or from another ethnic background, think of the abuse you would give them then.

In reply to Mr Lopez: That picture is not us.

In reply to akhughes: people need to get past the fact that we are not the ones in the picture.

In reply to Mr Lopez:

NB it's categorically not 'Greg and Adam' in the photo (see above) and studge has unfortunately led us all up the garden path by suggesting that it is. So, while my point was that *nobody* deserved the vitriol, it's doubly unfortunate that the wrong folk were named, and I'm sorry for not checking that myself before quoting!

In reply to akhughes: Yeah, sorry. Replied before i read the rest of the thread.
On a tangent, I'd love to see the faces of the guys in the photo if they ever come across this thread...

In reply to akhughes: then it may have been racism, yes. But its not. Didn't you just say the same thing as the op you plank? Learn to read.

In reply to jas wood:
NO !

conditions have to be true winter not the fickle marginal conditions we get now ...

people climb things now that I would walk away from as they are not in nick.

I personally abseiled off black cleft on cloggy cause it was not iced up .. I sure if we had wanted to we could have scratched our way up it - but what is the point, Ive also not bothered with other classic lines for same reason.
this is a piccy of the lower 5 pitch on the day we backed off due to lack of ice
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/lh/photo/8gouQbyyhulUyTr9Jzvn1Q?feat=directli...

and this was a good day in Mid Wales, some one wrote about us all in climber or climb magazine that day
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/lh/photo/ucIK3KxV6qA4P6aZOoStHw?feat=directli...

bring back good winter conditions....

this is cascade the same year ...
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/lh/photo/dXj3Yoq8lt4btV9YKn9Axw?feat=directli...

take care

Crap conditions + Christmas + bored trapped at home + English + Scots + ethics = pointless flame war on UKC = step backwards for participants = no step forward for winter climbing.

Cracker of a photo though!

Perhaps rather than be so angry with the climbers and each other, we should be pissing ourselves laughing at their antics and leave it at that?

In reply to Toby S:

So what if they do?!?!

Happy Christmas dude, yours, Morally-Mankrupt-From-Edinburgh!!

Well, I've read right through this thread, and it hasn't changed my views one bit.

Someone goes up a new route when it's black and out of condition and claims a IX, 9 lead: that's a big deal, and they deserve to get flamed for it.

Someone goes up a IV, 5 trade route like Fingers Ridge when it's black and out of condition: tiny deal. Who cares whether they claim the tick or not? Who are they claiming it *to*-- their mums, their girlfriends? So who's impwessed? Are they, as schoolteachers like to say, kidding anyone but themselves?

And as to damage: no one has convinced me that crampons on rock (whether bare or covered by powder/ really thin ice) do any damage at all, other than a touch of minor visual damage. Granite is, after all, a harder substance than aluminium.

Crampons and axes on unfrozen turf is clearly a different matter. But (a) I already thought that before this thread started, and (b) I personally have seen FROZEN turf drop off because of axe/ crampon use on it, and no one thinks that's unethical provided you're as careful as you can be.

In practical terms, the upshots of this thread for me are:

1. If other people want to climb black rock in winter kit, I'm not going to criticise them, though if they climb black turf in winter kit, I might criticise them (provided they're not bigger than me).

2. Just to be on the safe side, I'm not going to climb black rock in winter kit myself.

I call these the upshots of this thread... but actually (1) and (2) are what I thought already

Tim Chappell on wrong computer

NB I haven't been on this thread since last signing off from the right computer, so any 'anonymous' claiming to be me higher up the thread is telling porkies.

In reply to Ian McNeill: Nice photos of water ice routes but not very relevant to a thread about mixed climbing conditions.
As I understand it the top pitch of Black Cleft is never iced because the spring which is the source of the ice comes out two thirds the way up the cliff so therefore it's a mixed finish as suggested in the guidebook. The rock looks rimed in the photo, - you should have saddled up and finished it off
What's your thoughts on the recent two weeks of welsh winter climbing? Not enough water ice for you?

In reply to Garbh Coire:

Bring back Norrie for godsake- the supposed flaming on this thread is pish with a capital 'P'.
In recent weeks we have had people arguing that Dorsal Arete could be worth III,4 in certain nick. Eh?
Now we have half a thread of folk saying it's ok to climb Scottish winter climbs, in winter with not a sprinkle of snow on them. 'Each to their own' happy clappy pish. Eh?
I would be laughing if it hadn't descended to the point of ridiculous. Come on UKC.

In reply to Ian McNeill:
i agree !
i was mearly posing the question as to what some people consider acceptable.
As stated earlier the climb has to appear in winter condition (snow,ice verglas frozen turf etc) and use of crampons and axes needed to do the route for ME to consider climbing something with the winter kit. Sometimes i like everyone gets it wrong (usually ending in backing off and a scramble or a walk out ) but in my opinion the picture posted doesn,t come anywhere near winter nick therefore i wouldn,t use poons and axes.

jas

In reply to Randy Baird:Totally agree Victorian Climbers used to climb summer Gullies with Alpine stocks and nailed boots. It's cold in inner Aberdeenshire so there no excuses for not finding a reasonably Gully in Lochnagar for all you frustrated Ice climbers and there is always Corrie Sputen Dearg. So less moaning more climbing.


By the way my regular partner is away for two weeks so if anyone fancies the long walk in to a high Corrie the only thing I ask is that you'd be able to lead through although I'm quite happy to lead Crux.Email me asap so I can discuss ideas.

In reply to Randy Baird:

Yep, and I was silly enough to support the guy who suggested that. For one or two moves on an otherwise overwhelmingly straightforward climb. So watch who you're slagging, mate! :-P


Yep, each to their own. Including you! :-/


Laugh if you like. But I try to keep my posts constructive and avoid slagging folk I've never met.

In reply to The brainn:

That's because they had to clear moss and turf out as they climbed. And not just on gullies either. They were well hard in those days.

In reply to petestack:

>But I try to keep my posts constructive and avoid slagging folk I've never met.

I honestly don't give a flying one that I haven't met these plonkers.
Why I should be constructive either?
Is this really UKdrytooling.com?

In reply to Randy Baird:

Suit yourself if you're perfect, then.


Because it's always, well, more constructive than being destructive.


No.

In reply to Randy Baird:


Well, Randy, I think you're missing some distinctions that others have been careful to make.

Between going up turf and going up rock, for one.
Between going up a trade route and new-routeing, for another.

What you call happy clappy pish, I call tolerance.

What you see as a shameful inability to flame, I call responsiveness to evidence.

The great and the good of UKC have been asked to tell us what the evidence is that people going up black rock in winter kit is really a problem. And I for one haven't been convinced that there is a problem, unless damage is done to the climb (which is unlikely unless turf is involved) or someone claims that their climb was something it wasn't (which only matters anyway with top-end climbs).

So though I wouldn't personally do a black-rock winter climb, this thread has left me doubting that there's outstandingly good reason to think that we mustn't under any circs.

So there you go.

PS Oh, by the way, someone (French Erick?) claimed higher up the thread that routes are getting trashed by people dry-tooling them.

Can anyone substantiate this important claim? Can anyone name a single route that has been damaged by ice-axe and crampon use? (NB axe and crampon use, not just use.)

Again, I'm not being difficult. I know feelings run high on this issue, but I'm trying to see past the feelings and amass some hard facts on it.

Cheers
Tim Chappell on wrong computer (and that last Anon post was me too)

In reply to Anonymous:

Time to learn your password, Tim?

In reply to Garbh Coire: not bothered about naming and shaming, but i cnnot believe how many people seem to think its ok to do what they have very clearly done.

So, you lot supporting these two ok if I take my crampons and tools to stanage (feel free to sub in your sacred crag) and start scratching around in mid july next year?

In reply to Anonymous:

>So though I wouldn't personally do a black-rock winter climb, this thread has left me doubting that there's outstandingly good reason to think that we mustn't under any circs.

Here's a good one Timothy- it's not what Scottish Winter climbing is about!

In reply to Wee Davie:

Here's a good one Timothy- it's not what Scottish Winter climbing is about!


So why can't people go and do it and call it something other than "Scottish winter climbing", if that's what they fancy?

Really, my mind is open on this. What seems to me the crucial question is:

Does 'scratching around' on black rock with crampons and axes actually damage the rock?

Who's going to produce some hard evidence that it does? No one has done so far. All we've had is bluster and appeals to tradition.

If someone shows me some evidence that it does damage, I'll change my tune. Till then, my tune is: I wouldn't do this myself, (a) just to be on the safe side, (b) because I wouldn't enjoy it, and (c) because I'm injured at the momeent anyway; but neither would I denounce someone else for doing it.

TC

PS Oh, and while I think of it: someone above linked climbing winter routes when they're not in nick with bolting routes. That's a ridiculous comparison, so far as I can see. The damage bolting does is obvious and gratuitous, and (I think) intolerable except at recognised sport venues. The damage black-rock 'winter' climbing does is... well, a bit like the damage that proper winter climbing does, really.

Again, I'm not doing this because I want to make a case for black-rock winter climbing. I'm doing it because I want to sort out what the case against it is. So far, I'm surprised how weak the case against turns out to be-- but to repeat, my mind is open.

In reply to Anonymous:

I find this thread fascinating. I agree with many of the ostensibly conflicting viewpoints. As a prelude and in a nutshell I think there is nothing wrong with what "they" did.

I like French Erik's assertion that it IS important that these "questions" are raised so that ethics are not ridden rough shod over nor forgotten in the pepsi max rush to enjoy a bit of climbing?

Then again I agree with Tim Chappell saying really what is the problem? Like Marc Twight says "climbing is anarchy" so f**** 'em they're all posers anyway!

Look at the late great Alun Mullin: he got stuck in and ruffled feathers and made errors of judgement en route but in a non calculating way I think his occasionally questionable style had an influence on all levels of climber and grades climbed?

Was on Fingers 10 days ago (winter!) for 3rd time. Like a few routes there IS damage, even to the granite! As on the mantrap and many other winter/summer routes. Is that worse than dislodged FROZEN turf (as Tim rightly mentions), which might at least grow back?

Merry Xmas!!

PPS The best evidence for the case against that I've found so far-- I've just been on a google hunt and dug up this:

http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/council/wintercode.html

It talks a fair bit about not damaging the rock when it's out of nick by using tools on it.

OK, this is the MCoS speaking, and they know more about this issue than I do. All the same, they cite no evidence that winter tools do damage the rock more when it's out of nick than when it isn't, or damage it significantly either way. I'd still like to see some.

Interesting discussion of this issue here (featuring, among others, Dave McLeod and our very own Norrie):

http://forums.scottishclimbs.com/index.php?action=printpage;topic=1874.0

There does seem to be a consensus there that dry tooling is worse for the rock than straight winter climbing. Since the members of this consensus are pretty experienced, this consensus probably is evidence-based... OK, I'm coming round to the case against.

sure they were doing no one else any harm and winter climbing does damage cliffs however to do a "winter route" that you could have done in the same conditions found in summer....... Winter climbing is a rapidly growing sport and if people start dry tooling all the time as its their business it will have profound damage on many cliffs over time. Climb it now and screw the effects in future is hardly the attitude.

In reply to jas wood:

I'm not against more bolts, if done with permission of the landowner.

No, that shouldn't be the question. Because these climbers did not affect anyone else by climbing the route, so how is it anyone else's business? I don't think that just because a majority of the climbing population does not want to do the route in that kind of conditions, that everyone should be barred from doing it.

And yes, I think it would be great if we got more dry tooling in the mountains. It's just as difficult as other forms of climbing, just as skillful. And anyone getting out climbing is good with me.

In reply to Anonymous:

Having just read the thread top to bottom, I can't see that view coming out anywhere? The major post about damage, pressure leverage etc by Al Downie applies equally to dry rock and hoar covered rock.......

Oh, and White Magic is a route which has famously been mauled by winter ascents isn't it? Complaints were made about Snickersnack on Gable too I think at the time?

AJM

P.S. The guy who said "shall I go tooling at Stanage then"..... Not that I really care, but Stanage has an ethic of never attacking the rock with axes. Coire an Lochan, for example, has an ethic that you may do as much damage as you like with axes as you like provided the route is dusted in a sprinkling of hoar frost. The difference should be clear and obvious, no?

In reply to AJM:

Correct and Scottish Winter Climbing has an ethic that says the routes should look wintery. There was no difference, from what I could see, between this ascent and one done in September when it was slightly cold.

To TC: It doesn't matter what they have done but if anyone claims to have climbed a route in those conditions and calls it winter they are deluding themselves. They need to go back and do it under snow and less black conditions.

The MCofS voluntary code came out of similar debates to this and states clearly that the routes should look wintery.

In reply to Donald M: No it doesn't. You, and some other climbers have that opinion. Don't speak as if you represent all of us, you don't.

The MCofS can make all of the codes they like, I wont be listening to any of them.

In reply to fishy1:

Climbing a route with no snow or ice is NOT WINTER CLIMBING!!!!!! If it's completely black as it is in the picture then it has not been done in winter condition, it's either been dry tooled or it has been tackled as a summer climb.

In reply to fishy1:

From: http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/pitch-in/climbing_intro.html


The winter guidance was distributed for comment through the magazine and website and finally passed at AGM in 2002. Besides tackling the issues of potential damage to rare Alpine plants, it also looked at 'what is a winter ascent' and the 'dry-tooling of rock climbs' – two related issues. It also stated that it was the view of the majority that bolts should not be used. Then dry-tooling became established as an all-year round activity in Newtyle Quarry and now has a growing band of devotees. This further confused the whole issue for some, who could not see the differences between climbing in winter on out-of-condition rock and the new discipline.

The debate at the Ice Factor saw almost everyone agreeing that the newly evolving dry-tooling was a separate issue, a realisation that its practitioners did not agree with climbing quality rock lines, nor established routes so there would be few suitable venues, nor did they agree with climbing in winter on out-of-condition rock climbs.

'Some climbers'? I don't think so, sounds like the majority of climbers agree that routes that are stripped of snow or ice should not be tackled with winter climbing kit.

In reply to Toby S:

No one will force these "majority" of climbers you mention to climb the routes in winter kit, when they are stripped of ice/snow. Which seems fair enough to me. But if someone else does want to, why shouldn't they?

In reply to fishy1: You can climb them like that if you wish too. Just don't call it winter climbing.

In reply to Toby S:

Can you smell IT!!!




















































































































































Bull****

In reply to SonyaD: Exactly. Unfortunately, many others in this thread don't seem to see it this way, and believe that me, and others, should not be allowed to climb routes in that condition.

Depends on your definition of winter climbing. Is climbing a gully in good ice condition in april winter climbing? Because, to me, that's spring climbing. Is climbing rock, with regular rock gear, in febuary, not winter climbing?

In reply to Garbh Coire:

It seems to me that we have a bit of a schism on our hands. Those who partake in climbing/mountaineering during the time of year known as Winter in the country of Scotland (note I am careful to avoid the phrase "Scottish Winter Climbing") have differing views.

On the one hand there are those who think the 'guidelines' set down by the guiding groups, authorities and organisations which represent Scottish climbing are to be adhered to.

On the other hand there are those who say, "I can do as I please and who are you/they to question it, in fact you are eletist for suggesting I adhere to these 'laws', ya bunch of Nazis"

I'm not suggesting one side or the other is correct. I know which one I follow but it's interesting how things have developed and I wonder if this is a recent thing or something that has existed for a long time.

Is it an environmental change (i.e. we just don't get the winters of old anymore so people will do routes come what may)? Is it due to the increasing popularity of the activity where more people simply means more opinions? Does it derive from the advent of alternative types of climbing such as dry tooling and influences from abroad (the World is getting smaller and all that)? Is the schism due to the internet (i.e. people could have climbed routes like this in the past and no one would have known a thing about it if a pic hadn't been posted on here)?

I like to think of myself as a bit of an anthropologist and am now taking more interest in the differing views than in the rights or wrong of the argument. Of course I have my opinion on this topic (and I know it's right) but reading the arguments from the anthropological/sociologist point of view is rather interesting.

In reply to SonyaD:


Does it make any difference to any of us what our fellow climbers call their exploits? Are any of us sad enough to care about such trivial things?

In reply to timjones: Yes it does make a difference. Some people like to call things what they are not so as to decieve others or themselves. Some people have other words for that kind of thing. You can be one of those if you like. : )

In reply to Fawksey:

Some people only climb because they think that it makes them look good, the image seem to be the most important thing for them. I can only imagine that it is this type of bulls^!t merchant that gets hung up over trivia like this? Are you one of those people, only a bulls^!tter will be offended by the bulls^!t of others

In reply to duntelchaig midge:


I'll agree with that. I'm fascinated as to why folks get so hung up on the definition. If the distinguishing factor is merely the colour of the rock then it's far from logical to assume that it's about damage, so it can only be down to image and perception!

In reply to timjones: Hey you were entitled to your opinion and Im quite capable of having one aswell even if it does oppose yours. Its you who seems to be offended.

Only a bullshitter would be offended at the bullshit of others? Did you make that up or was it in a Xmas cracker? Or is it an excuse you use?

In reply to Fawksey:

What do you think I need an excuse for

In reply to fxceltic:

One very good reason to not scratch around Stanage (under any conditions) is the nature of the rock, gritsone is a soft rock and does not stand up to the sort of punishment rhyolite and granite can stand.

In reply to Simon22:

So on hard rock it is ok then?

Witness the great debates on this subject such as Punsters Crack, Mort, Centurion.

My take is that some climbers find it very difficult not to be challenging themselves and even more difficult to "admit" they only did an easy route. They therefore go and do a route, in this case totally out of condition, and convince themselves that they took the chance and it worked. It didnt in this case but in many others it will.

People can go and climb totally dry routes and call it winter but most know that 1. that is not a winter ascent and 2 they might get a shock when they come up against reak winter conditons.

In reply to Garbh Coire: I have only read the first couple of posts, and its nice to see you come down on these guys climbing unneccessarily in crampons. However, if there was a modicum of hoar this would be in winter conditions, yet winter climbers often do there damness to brush all the hoar off. Therefore my argument is that unless the cliff is incased in 1ft+ of ice all you scottish winter climbers are damaging the rock just as much as these two guys in the photo.

Pot calling the kettle black me thinks!

discuss!

<retreats to bunker>

In reply to Donald M:


I was referring to the damage issue not ethics, the point being that even if Stanage (or any other grit crag) was plastered with snow I wouldn't condone winter ascents due to the nature of the rock.

In reply to mark reeves: Think the damage to the rock argument is irrelevant here. What is relevant is, 'do folk claim a winter ascent, ie claim IV, when in reality it's a Diff with crampons'

God, I can't be arsed being dragged into this. Did you get out with your axes Mark when you had some conditions down your way? <hope you're having a nice xmas>

In reply to SonyaD:

Do people claim a winter ascent, ie claim X 10, when in reality it's an E6 with crampons?

In reply to James Jackson:

probably only if they are trying to get some coverage for their sponsors

In reply to fishy1:

>Is climbing a gully in good ice condition in april winter climbing? Because, to me, that's spring climbing.

The calendar month and season is completely and totally irrelevant!

The point which you are so obviously missing, is-
it should be in WINTER CONDITION due to snow/ice/hoar.
Otherwise you look really stupid.
It really is that simple.

In reply to Randy Baird:


"Otherwise you look really stupid"



Appeals to tradition, to The Done Thing, and in general to what other people are going to think-- none of this nonsense cuts it. Because no one with any sense cares about that anyway.

The only good argument against climbing black rock in winter kit has to be: Don't do it because it damages the rock. Does that claim hold up? I haven't heard any compelling evidence that it does, though I have heard the claim made by people whose judgement I trust.

On balance, I'm going to assume it does hold up, and not climb black rock in winter kit myself, just to be on the safe side.

I think that's about all I've got to say on this... so over and out.

In reply to Anonymous:

Good. Because you took a very select part of the whole argument and made a very narrow judgement.

In reply to Fawksey:

On the contrary; I started this thread to do a comprehensive search for reasons not to winter-climb on out of condition routes. The only one I've been given here is the possibility that it might damage the rock. There's a perception that it does, and this perception is probably right, but there's no good evidence one way or the other that anyone's shown me. Nothing narrow or selective about that, so be polite or be silent. Preferably the latter.

Tim Chappell on wrong computer

In reply to Anonymous:

>I started this thread

Borlox you did. It was Garbh Coire.

In reply to Randy Baird:


OK, more accurately: I raised the question "What's wrong with this anyway?" in post 6 on this thread.

In reply to Anonymous: Hi Tim you snotty prick. I'll say what I like when I like. Now you said you would say no more on the matter why dont you try staying true to your word?

In reply to Fawksey:


Mmm... no, silence is still looking the better option, for you, really.

Happy Christmas anyway.

In reply to Anonymous:

"winter-climb on out of condition routes"

Sums it up really.

Maybe the protagonists in this instance would also claim a winter route on their indoor wall if it was January?

In reply to Anonymous: someone above linked climbing winter routes when they're not in nick with bolting routes. That's a ridiculous comparison,

i mentioned bolting in the same post as this dry tooling escapade but made no comparison at all if you read it.
my point was it is not okay to do what you want in the hills and mountains just because you want to and gave an example of bolting grit of an example of why you cannot "do what you want"

i,ll ask again (regardless of damaging rock)
is dry tooling acceptable in the scottish hills ?
if you are saying you could turn a blind eye to it then that is your opinion but i suspect you are in the minority.

jas

It's unbelievable that this discussion has gone on right through Christmas day! There were better things to be doing, surely.

However it seems that some people have missed the point about Scottish ethics.

Climbing winter routes out of condition does little more damage to the rock than climbing them in winter nick. The greatest damage done is to our style of climbing and chips away at our strong ethics for adventurous climbing. This ethic leads to climbers having the skills and abilities to do climbs such as The God Delusion, also discussed on this forum, and is respected throughout the rest of the world.

Good winter conditions, however you describe them, make it more difficult to read the route. There may be unforeseen challenges such as ice filled cracks and verglas along with everything being buried in white stuff. We strive to do things in these conditions to give us the greatest challenge.

If we now accept people doing climbs in dry conditions without criticism because they're not hurting anyone, climbing dry rock with axes and crampons will become more acceptable and we'll loose our ethic and unique challenges.

I think we should all make every effort to do things only in good winter condition, to be prepared to walk home if the crag is not white, and reinforce what is so good about Scotish winter climbing, the adventure of it.

The bolting debate is along similar lines. Bolting instantly takes away the adventurousness of the climb. There is a place for it and the balance we have now is fine but bolts on mountain crags should never be allowed for the same reasons as I've said above.

So, name and shame, absolutely right!

Mike

In reply to Mike Pescod:

Right on Mike.

Except the last bit - I'm not sure naming and shaming gets us anywhere. People are always going to make mistakes. Better to post the photo and laugh at the fact that those climbers just don't get it. No need to punish the individuals involved further than that? Otherwise it does sound like policing.

As for earlier posters trying to extrapolate whether it's OK to do a route based on the damage left after the climb, that seems like a very one dimensional argument. It seems quite materialistic to have such a view - "I can tick this route in any way I please as long as I do no damage?" Do you pull on runners on trad routes and tick the route because no damage was done? You can if you want, but it doesn't feel like leading it clean, does it? So surely style and challenge are important, as Mike says.

If you want to climb the route on your own terms irrespective of conditions, then fine go ahead, your loss I'd say. But expect to have the piss taken by your peers who aren't busy raping and pillaging routes, and who climb when the conditions are ready. Because they get it.

In reply to Simon22:

i realise that, but the point i was making is that effectively the people in the picture are dry tooling, not scottish winter climbing.

In reply to mike.moss & mike pescod: you wait several days for some logical well made points and then 2 come along at once.

In reply to Donald M: lets face it, the guys in the photos are choobs, no point even debating it

In reply to Erik B: Agreed.

In reply to Erik B:

A bit of the black art being practiced again today but an old debate now.

The World Fankle Championships were very successful though.

In reply to Donald M:
And in Lochain.
Sorry we missed you on the hill today.
I think I'd have given you a run for your money in the Fankle Championships. A photo finsh for gold and silver

In reply to duntelchaig midge:

Ah well I am happy to say we werent involed and just watched. Interesting to note that the organisers chose to hold the comp on the Runnel.

In reply to timjones: well ive finally read the whole thread, and you sir are a buffoon!

I challenge you to climb up the giants wall of bheinn bhan in summer, afterall judging by your argument it is no different to fingers ridge and the 2 choobs climbing it in alpine summer-like conditions, with crampons on...

let us know how you get on mate!!

PS fingers ridge is a summer route, which probably explains how the 2 choobs got up it

In reply to mike.moss:

Of course it's one dimensional it's the single valid reason for complaining about someone elses style. If it does no damage it does the rest of us no harm, so why bitch on about it?

I wouldn't choose to climb a route in crampons unless there was enough ice to mean that it was more efficient to use them, but these guys do me no harm as I don't judge my own climbing by what others are doing.

In reply to Mike Pescod:

So your arguement is basically, it's different climbing routes when they are in non-winter nick, so we shouldn't do them? Sigh.

The god delusion, looks like almost dry tooling in parts. Although I'm not sure of it, I'd be surprised if climbers who've done it did not learn some of the skills needed for it, by dry tooling. Style of climbing, I don't care about. Do what you love. Ethics or rep, I don't care about either. Seems like insecurity if you just care about what others think. As long as the rock is not massively damaged, and you don't spend weeks aiding up something that others want on, it's good with me.


You can do it in good winter nick, if you want. Do it solo, with hobnail boots, and one wooden axe, if you wish, that makes it even more challenging. But if someone wants to do it with modern gear, let them.


Ethics should be lost for good, in my opinion. I was out dry tooling some boulders yesterday, had a fantastic time, extremely skillful, and challenging.


Do it without a map, naked, with no gear, if you want to. But don't try to impose your opinions on others, who may be more influencible than myself.


No-one forces you to clip bolts on a climb, you can still lead it trad style, if you so wish.

In reply to fishy1:

Bollocks! Happy New Year, but bollocks!

In reply to petestack: Explain.

In reply to fishy1:

Read the thread, because it's all explained there. Or just disagree with everything Mike Pescod says if you know better. But Happy New Year anyway!

In reply to fishy1:


I cant believe that this most naive of arguments still gets trotted out by people who call themselves climbers with such apalling regularity!

In reply to fishy1:

I also cant believe that people are making any kind of comparison between the full winter nick on the God Delusion and that on Fingers Ridge. How much progress are you going to make on the former without winter gear?

In reply to fishy1:

Once the bolts are there, the crag has changed and simply ignoring them doesn't restore things to their natural state.

In reply to Jamie B.:

It's not worth explaining any further, Jamie! fishy1 knows best...

In reply to petestack:

Seethe, seethe...

In reply to fishy1: basically you are saying forget scottish winter climbing ethics (the reason johnny foriegner comes over) and just do what we want in the hills and f*ck the consequences ?
you have the right to your opinion and can voice it how you want but i see the future as bleak if your stance is that of the majority.

is dry tooling acceptable on the scottish hills ?

ja

In reply to Jamie B.: notice that fishy is the same dude who wanted to make his own boots and have a butty shop on the top of the ben, carrying in his own tea urn everyday...

In reply to fxceltic:

Can't speak for Jamie, but it's not something I'm likely to forget quickly!

In reply to jas wood: You seriously believe the reason foriegners come over to climb is because some people make up "ethics" and try to impose them on everyone else?

I can see the future as brilliant if the majority's stance becomes the same as my current views.


Yes, I think it is acceptable to dry tool. The damage is minimal, and no one seems to have an argument against it, other than that it is against "ethics".

In reply to fishy1:
go dry tool on the continent then.

Yes, foreigners come here for it, I'm one...came after tales of some Italians friends who had come and stayed for 2 weeks.

Many of my pals have made inquiries and showed interests, including my local CAF club.

Ethics in here, cropping in conversations sounding along the lines of "those brits are mental with their bits of kit stuffed into cracks", are well known and respected abroad. Definitely one of the factors for my moving here.

Being inclusive and understanding is one thing but you can push it too far... the saying about babies thrown with the bath water comes to my mind here.

And BTW fishy, we have ascertained, detractors and defenders of the ethics, on this very thread that there was NO valid argument about rock damage (It WAS mentioned but for VEGETATION = turf)and not for rock scratches.

You are entitled to your opinions, but prepare yourself for an earful of interesting language if you are seen dry-tooling on Scottish mountain crags.

As for the "god delusion" aspect, comments about it being dry tooling does show that the "Scottish winter climbing" sport is elitist by its very nature since you need to have been to Beinn Bhan at least once to realise that the said comments are proving the person's ignorance of sandstone crags in winter.

In reply to French Erick:

No. You climb where you want, I'll climb where I want, in the style I want.


It's never concerned me what idiots think of what I do. Although if it gets threatening, the police may be involved. Failing that, I'm a big guy, as are most of the guys I climb with, and we'll see if anyone tries to mess with us. I doubt they will, but I'm not worried either way.

In reply to fishy1:

Will you be involving the navy also?

In reply to fishy1:

Have you ever climbed Fingers Ridge?

In reply to fishy1:
You can have an earful without involving any threats nor vulgar language...
I would never degrade myself in any fighting antics as I leave that for morons.
No need of police, navy or being big or small... just that I would tell you what you are doing is ethically wrong, with various degrees of eloquence.
Now fishy this may well change if there are indeed many people that agree with you. Ethics do change, I'd rather they didn't on that particular aspects of climbing.

Now, here's advice and no threat (from me anyway): do not go on the continent with that thinking "I'll climb where I want, in the style I want" as there are places, and idiots populating them that would not give you an earful but a fistful and police is only of limited use when not speaking the same language. And believe me debating with them is nigh on impossible, if not just down right dangerous.

In reply to French Erick:

Careful! Fishy will be involving the airforce soon. They will fly black planes clear of snow and be based in warm climes trying to convince themselves that dry rock = winter climbing.

In reply to Donald M: Naw he winna.

In reply to petestack: No, I haven't. Yet.

In reply to fishy1: I'm not going to waste my time replying to your comments.

Happy climbing!

Mike

In reply to Ignorant Wife:

Careful now!
Fishy1 can type what he likes and when he likes and your "rock widow" ethics are not going to stop him doing what he pleases. He is a big guy who wont be afraid to get the police onto you if you don't stop that chat

In reply to Toby S:



it's not just scotland that get's this rot. i live in derbyshire and i am sick & tired of the southerners climbing on wet rock in the wind & the rain just because they "drove all the way up from london". southerners stop polishing our rock!!!

In reply to fishy1: you sir, are a prize joker who cant possibly believe the nonsense you yourself spout. My prize for troll of 2008 goes to you, for repeated ridiculous trolls.

in the meantime, I hope you decide its ok to bolt stanage or similar just because you feel like it, and see what happens to you and your "big mates" then, police or no.

you cant just climb how you want when you want, even if you think you can, though I suspect theres not much thinking actually going on. Insane ramblings yes, thinking no.

In reply to fxceltic:

I don't bolt anything, because A) I don't have landowner permission and B) I don't want to spend the money and C) I have better things to do, like climbing. But if someone else wants to, good for them.

I can. You can't stop me, neither can anyone else. I don't remember it being illegal. And don't try and act like you're more intellegent or superiour to me, you'll just fail.


And if I'm a troll, which I'm not, why are you responding to me? Don't feed trolls, if you seriously believe I am one.

In reply to fishy1:

Mate, top tip. Run declarative sentences like that through the spell checker. Much safer in retrospect.

In reply to TobyA: In my opinion, spelling ability does not equal intellegence.

But yeah, good point haha.

In reply to Garbh Coire: lol, thats the funniest thing i have ever god dam seen!! numptys

In reply to fishy1:


yep, being unable to spell intelligence is definitely not an indicator of the quality, or lack thereof

In reply to Garbh Coire:

I'm sure that I'm not the only one to have rock climbed in more Wintery conditions than that!

In reply to timjones:

Taking the piss out of someone for being a "numpty" (to quote others) doesn't harm the crag environment, so is it cool with you if I just apply that yardstick and reserve the right to take the piss out of such antics from now on?

Surely it's OK to have a laugh at some guys being caught with their trousers down like this? Walking around with your trousers down in public doesn't harm anybody either, but we'd all laugh at it, right? Or do you think some of us would say "Shit that's awesome - I'm going to wear my trousers that way too!"

LOL - that photograph belongs on a climbing version of http://failblog.org/

WINTER CLIMBING FAIL