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I'm amazed that on the UK's premier climbing website, there isn't a thread running already regarding Dave M's repeat of the 'Walk of Life', for which he proposes a grade of 'solid' E9 6c, especially in light of much grade debate last year.
His blog makes interesting reading and graciously and politely addresses the rather unbelievable (at this point in time) grade of E12, which a lot of folk suspected was somewhat excessive.
So, I'm wondering if the editorial staff at 'Climb' feel somewhat silly now having way over-sensationalised the whole numbers thing in the first place. But then again, I do think that after a promising start, the mag in question has turned into the 'Smash Hits' of climbing mags.
His blog makes interesting reading and graciously and politely addresses the rather unbelievable (at this point in time) grade of E12, which a lot of folk suspected was somewhat excessive.
So, I'm wondering if the editorial staff at 'Climb' feel somewhat silly now having way over-sensationalised the whole numbers thing in the first place. But then again, I do think that after a promising start, the mag in question has turned into the 'Smash Hits' of climbing mags.
In reply to Mark Sheridan:
Err, been there, done that, everybody's got the t-shirt, and have now moved on to the grade of Ryan Pasquill's climb.
> I'm amazed that on the UK's premier climbing website, there isn't a thread running already
> regarding Dave M's repeat of the 'Walk of Life', for which he proposes a grade of 'solid' E9 6c,
> especially in light of much grade debate last year.
> regarding Dave M's repeat of the 'Walk of Life', for which he proposes a grade of 'solid' E9 6c,
> especially in light of much grade debate last year.
Err, been there, done that, everybody's got the t-shirt, and have now moved on to the grade of Ryan Pasquill's climb.
In reply to Mark Sheridan:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=335694
381 posts and 19000 page views
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=335694
381 posts and 19000 page views
In reply to Coel Hellier:
Oh crap! I thought it seemed odd. I'll just go and dribble stupidly somewhere else then!
Oh crap! I thought it seemed odd. I'll just go and dribble stupidly somewhere else then!
In reply to Mark Sheridan:
Before you start threads like this you might want to get a grasp of the british grading system. And i quote you below. The E grade isn't just how dangerous something is. It's the difficulty as well. So asking how much you are going to die on an E10/11/12 doesn't make sense.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
The thread is too long for me to read at present, but I'm going to throw my opinion in anyway:
1). How much more are you going to die on an E12 than an E11 or E10 etc.? It's true that the British grading system, certainly at the top end, is out of control. Graded for the onsight etc. blah, blah ,blah. You can just imagine the scenario ten years from now;
"I'm really not sure whether it's a hard E32 or a soft E33."
Before you start threads like this you might want to get a grasp of the british grading system. And i quote you below. The E grade isn't just how dangerous something is. It's the difficulty as well. So asking how much you are going to die on an E10/11/12 doesn't make sense.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
The thread is too long for me to read at present, but I'm going to throw my opinion in anyway:
1). How much more are you going to die on an E12 than an E11 or E10 etc.? It's true that the British grading system, certainly at the top end, is out of control. Graded for the onsight etc. blah, blah ,blah. You can just imagine the scenario ten years from now;
"I'm really not sure whether it's a hard E32 or a soft E33."
In reply to Mark Sheridan:
I have to agree. Surely it is time for the editorial staff at Climb to have a look in the mirror and see how poor their reporting was over the whole E12 episode.
I suppose the same could be said of a lot of people on here who automatically jumped to James's defence by claiming people had no right to question him as they would never climb that hard, despite how obviously questionable the grade was at the time.
I think the term 'told you so' would be impolite, but accurate...
I have to agree. Surely it is time for the editorial staff at Climb to have a look in the mirror and see how poor their reporting was over the whole E12 episode.
I suppose the same could be said of a lot of people on here who automatically jumped to James's defence by claiming people had no right to question him as they would never climb that hard, despite how obviously questionable the grade was at the time.
I think the term 'told you so' would be impolite, but accurate...
In reply to rusty_nails:
Why is it just assumed James got it so wrong? Why isn't anyone suggesting Dave has got it wrong? How do we know it won't turn out, after a few repeats to be E11?
> (In reply to Mark Sheridan)
> I think the term 'told you so' would be impolite, but accurate...
> I think the term 'told you so' would be impolite, but accurate...
Why is it just assumed James got it so wrong? Why isn't anyone suggesting Dave has got it wrong? How do we know it won't turn out, after a few repeats to be E11?
In reply to Mark Sheridan:
Maybe in light of obviously having been abducted by aliens over the last week, I should now reply to the title of the thread by saying;
...'cos I do!
Ah well, I suppose it's character building in a cringe-worthy sort of way.
Maybe in light of obviously having been abducted by aliens over the last week, I should now reply to the title of the thread by saying;
...'cos I do!
Ah well, I suppose it's character building in a cringe-worthy sort of way.
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
Look at the experience.
Dave has climbed E11 (confirmed by two other world class climbers) and numerous E9/E10.
James has climbed a number of HARD routes, but none at E10 or above, so it's a jump into unknown territory for him. Some of his hardest routes have been downgraded already, leading to questions over his grading.
> (In reply to rusty_nails)
> [...]
>
> Why is it just assumed James got it so wrong? Why isn't anyone suggesting Dave has got it wrong? How do we know it won't turn out, after a few repeats to be E11?
> [...]
>
> Why is it just assumed James got it so wrong? Why isn't anyone suggesting Dave has got it wrong? How do we know it won't turn out, after a few repeats to be E11?
Look at the experience.
Dave has climbed E11 (confirmed by two other world class climbers) and numerous E9/E10.
James has climbed a number of HARD routes, but none at E10 or above, so it's a jump into unknown territory for him. Some of his hardest routes have been downgraded already, leading to questions over his grading.
In reply to rusty_nails:
I must have imagined Equilibriam then.....
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
> James has climbed a number of HARD routes, but none at E10 or above
> James has climbed a number of HARD routes, but none at E10 or above
I must have imagined Equilibriam then.....
In reply to Mark Sheridan:
So where is James Pearson anyway. I have not seen a comment by him on Dave M's climb of the walk of life or should i be going to spec savers too?
So where is James Pearson anyway. I have not seen a comment by him on Dave M's climb of the walk of life or should i be going to spec savers too?
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
Ok, he managed Equlibrium, but has never FA'd an E10, as the promise is now down as an E8.
Ok, he managed Equlibrium, but has never FA'd an E10, as the promise is now down as an E8.
In reply to rusty_nails:
What about The Groove when it gets repeated?
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
>
> Ok, he managed Equlibrium, but has never FA'd an E10, as the promise is now down as an E8.
>
> Ok, he managed Equlibrium, but has never FA'd an E10, as the promise is now down as an E8.
What about The Groove when it gets repeated?
In reply to rusty_nails:
Of?
Two potentially over-graded routes?
One of which hasn't seen a repeat in the style James did it in. Sans pads.
I am not saying these routes aren't over-graded, but all the armchair critics are annoying!
Whatever your top grade is, are you telling me you could get a first ascent grade spot on every time? I know i couldn't!
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
>
> going by his past form...
>
> going by his past form...
Of?
Two potentially over-graded routes?
One of which hasn't seen a repeat in the style James did it in. Sans pads.
I am not saying these routes aren't over-graded, but all the armchair critics are annoying!
Whatever your top grade is, are you telling me you could get a first ascent grade spot on every time? I know i couldn't!
In reply to Adam Lincoln: Good posts adam, these sort of "debates" could do with a bit of balance.
In reply to rusty_nails:
Of? Flashing font 8a/+? Headpointing benchmark E10? Onsighting E8? Putting up stunning new routes? But no, of course, a few possibly overgraded routes are more important, grades schmades-the guy can climb, and that's what counts.
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
>
> going by his past form...
>
> going by his past form...
Of? Flashing font 8a/+? Headpointing benchmark E10? Onsighting E8? Putting up stunning new routes? But no, of course, a few possibly overgraded routes are more important, grades schmades-the guy can climb, and that's what counts.
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
I dunno. If pressed I could probably accurately grade a new v diff '
Being more sensible: These routes are so far beyond my experience and likely future ability that it is all pretty abstract. I find it impossible to get worked up about it.
I dunno. If pressed I could probably accurately grade a new v diff '
Being more sensible: These routes are so far beyond my experience and likely future ability that it is all pretty abstract. I find it impossible to get worked up about it.
In reply to Mark Sheridan:
Whatever grade it gets, it looks like a fabulous slice of rock and both James and Dave sound like they had great experiences from the actual climbing. And as someone else put it, I think we'd all rather be shit hot at climbing than shit hot at grading.
In reply to rusty_nails:
One was from the colonies and claimed not to understand the E-grade so he doesn't count, the other was quite discrete about the rating if memory serves me.
I find it interesting that Dave Mac's benchmark E9s are Widdop Wall and If 6 was 9. Both appear to be rather stout for the grade. The former is unrepeated (so how can it be a benchmark!) and Dave Birkett couldn't manage the latter on a top-rope when he tried to repeat it for Made of Stone. A casual observer like myself finds it hard to understand how we can have routes of F7b+/c with no real protection (Indian Face) and routes of F8a+ with no real protection (If 6 was 9) both getting E9. Which one is the benchmark?
Looking into the future, I wonder which of Rhapsody or Walk... will be flashed first? I wouldn't automatically assume it will be Walk...
Whatever grade it gets, it looks like a fabulous slice of rock and both James and Dave sound like they had great experiences from the actual climbing. And as someone else put it, I think we'd all rather be shit hot at climbing than shit hot at grading.
In reply to rusty_nails:
> Dave has climbed E11 (confirmed by two other world class climbers) and numerous E9/E10.
One was from the colonies and claimed not to understand the E-grade so he doesn't count, the other was quite discrete about the rating if memory serves me.
I find it interesting that Dave Mac's benchmark E9s are Widdop Wall and If 6 was 9. Both appear to be rather stout for the grade. The former is unrepeated (so how can it be a benchmark!) and Dave Birkett couldn't manage the latter on a top-rope when he tried to repeat it for Made of Stone. A casual observer like myself finds it hard to understand how we can have routes of F7b+/c with no real protection (Indian Face) and routes of F8a+ with no real protection (If 6 was 9) both getting E9. Which one is the benchmark?
Looking into the future, I wonder which of Rhapsody or Walk... will be flashed first? I wouldn't automatically assume it will be Walk...
> What about The Groove when it gets repeated?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=11&year=2008#n45458
About when JP first suggested E12. I agree that people are too ready to jump behind him and defend him. It was fairly obvious (to me as an armchair critic) that grading it E12 when he hadn't tried the only E11 was a bit silly. Surely he at least has to have a go on the E11 before beginning to think about grading something E12. That is what I couldn't get my head around.
On the other hand, people shouldn't burn him at the stake cos he graded it the hardest climb in the world. But we should be able to question it ourselves without being accused of "not being able to comment as you can't climb that hard".
Rant over!
In answer to the OP, I picked up that copy of climb at the castle the other day, flicked through it. I was amazed, it ran through the entire issue, filling about 8 pages + full page photo's. Sensationalism at it's most extreme! I bet they feel foolish, and if they don't they should!
That's my thoughts anyway. Feel free to disagree! M
In reply to davies00: ah. Just read he repeated "allmost all" the Groove! whoops :P
M
M
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
Pads don't make the climbing technically easier.
If i was putting up FA's i certainly would not throw out a grade way above what i had experienced to that date.
> (In reply to rusty_nails)
> [...]
>
> Of?
>
> Two potentially over-graded routes?
>
> One of which hasn't seen a repeat in the style James did it in. Sans pads.
>
> I am not saying these routes aren't over-graded, but all the armchair critics are annoying!
>
> Whatever your top grade is, are you telling me you could get a first ascent grade spot on every time? I know i couldn't!
> [...]
>
> Of?
>
> Two potentially over-graded routes?
>
> One of which hasn't seen a repeat in the style James did it in. Sans pads.
>
> I am not saying these routes aren't over-graded, but all the armchair critics are annoying!
>
> Whatever your top grade is, are you telling me you could get a first ascent grade spot on every time? I know i couldn't!
Pads don't make the climbing technically easier.
If i was putting up FA's i certainly would not throw out a grade way above what i had experienced to that date.
In reply to flaneur:
Both interesting points. Dave thinks it's a benchmark, as it fits in well with his (extensive) experience of that grade.
>
> I find it interesting that Dave Mac's benchmark E9s are Widdop Wall and If 6 was 9. Both appear to be rather stout for the grade. The former is unrepeated (so how can it be a benchmark!) and Dave Birkett couldn't manage the latter on a top-rope when he tried to repeat it for Made of Stone. A casual observer like myself finds it hard to understand how we can have routes of F7b+/c with no real protection (Indian Face) and routes of F8a+ with no real protection (If 6 was 9) both getting E9. Which one is the benchmark?
>
> Looking into the future, I wonder which of Rhapsody or Walk... will be flashed first? I wouldn't automatically assume it will be Walk...
> I find it interesting that Dave Mac's benchmark E9s are Widdop Wall and If 6 was 9. Both appear to be rather stout for the grade. The former is unrepeated (so how can it be a benchmark!) and Dave Birkett couldn't manage the latter on a top-rope when he tried to repeat it for Made of Stone. A casual observer like myself finds it hard to understand how we can have routes of F7b+/c with no real protection (Indian Face) and routes of F8a+ with no real protection (If 6 was 9) both getting E9. Which one is the benchmark?
>
> Looking into the future, I wonder which of Rhapsody or Walk... will be flashed first? I wouldn't automatically assume it will be Walk...
Both interesting points. Dave thinks it's a benchmark, as it fits in well with his (extensive) experience of that grade.
In reply to davies00:
SPOT ON!!!
Why is it not acceptable to question something that stands out so much? Just because we can't (or wont't?) reach that level does not automatically rule out constructive (or other) criticisim.
You wouldn't expect us not to question an MP, or a general over a 'Questionable' decision just because we are not in that profession, or might not reach that level.
> [...]
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=11&year=2008#n45458
>
> About when JP first suggested E12. I agree that people are too ready to jump behind him and defend him. It was fairly obvious (to me as an armchair critic) that grading it E12 when he hadn't tried the only E11 was a bit silly. Surely he at least has to have a go on the E11 before beginning to think about grading something E12. That is what I couldn't get my head around.
> On the other hand, people shouldn't burn him at the stake cos he graded it the hardest climb in the world. But we should be able to question it ourselves without being accused of "not being able to comment as you can't climb that hard".
> Rant over!
>
> In answer to the OP, I picked up that copy of climb at the castle the other day, flicked through it. I was amazed, it ran through the entire issue, filling about 8 pages + full page photo's. Sensationalism at it's most extreme! I bet they feel foolish, and if they don't they should!
>
> That's my thoughts anyway. Feel free to disagree! M
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=11&year=2008#n45458
>
> About when JP first suggested E12. I agree that people are too ready to jump behind him and defend him. It was fairly obvious (to me as an armchair critic) that grading it E12 when he hadn't tried the only E11 was a bit silly. Surely he at least has to have a go on the E11 before beginning to think about grading something E12. That is what I couldn't get my head around.
> On the other hand, people shouldn't burn him at the stake cos he graded it the hardest climb in the world. But we should be able to question it ourselves without being accused of "not being able to comment as you can't climb that hard".
> Rant over!
>
> In answer to the OP, I picked up that copy of climb at the castle the other day, flicked through it. I was amazed, it ran through the entire issue, filling about 8 pages + full page photo's. Sensationalism at it's most extreme! I bet they feel foolish, and if they don't they should!
>
> That's my thoughts anyway. Feel free to disagree! M
SPOT ON!!!
Why is it not acceptable to question something that stands out so much? Just because we can't (or wont't?) reach that level does not automatically rule out constructive (or other) criticisim.
You wouldn't expect us not to question an MP, or a general over a 'Questionable' decision just because we are not in that profession, or might not reach that level.
In reply to rusty_nails:
I wasn't on about the technical grade.
And.
Dave hadn't climbed a confirmed E10 when he called Rhapsody E11...
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
> [...]
>
> Pads don't make the climbing technically easier.
>
> If i was putting up FA's i certainly would not throw out a grade way above what i had experienced to that date.
> [...]
>
> Pads don't make the climbing technically easier.
>
> If i was putting up FA's i certainly would not throw out a grade way above what i had experienced to that date.
I wasn't on about the technical grade.
And.
Dave hadn't climbed a confirmed E10 when he called Rhapsody E11...
In reply to Mark Sheridan:
I don't know if they have any reason to feel foolish. Pearson gave an unprecedented grade to the route which was clearly big enough news to spark many drawn out discussions on UKC about not only the route, but also the grading system itself. The ascent was big news at the time and warranted some kind of in-depth reporting. It's easy, now that MacLeod has downgraded it, to criticise them for making such a big deal about, but then isn't hindsight a wonderful thing?!
One thing I think they should be a little ashamed of is what minimal coverage similar ascents (i.e. Echo Wall) have had in comparison to WoL.
I don't know if they have any reason to feel foolish. Pearson gave an unprecedented grade to the route which was clearly big enough news to spark many drawn out discussions on UKC about not only the route, but also the grading system itself. The ascent was big news at the time and warranted some kind of in-depth reporting. It's easy, now that MacLeod has downgraded it, to criticise them for making such a big deal about, but then isn't hindsight a wonderful thing?!
One thing I think they should be a little ashamed of is what minimal coverage similar ascents (i.e. Echo Wall) have had in comparison to WoL.
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
>Dave hadn't climbed a confirmed E10 when he called Rhapsody E11...
He had been on at least two routes given E10 by the FA & downgraded both of them AFTER success. You point is?
>Dave hadn't climbed a confirmed E10 when he called Rhapsody E11...
He had been on at least two routes given E10 by the FA & downgraded both of them AFTER success. You point is?
In reply to Wee Davie:
So they were not E10. James had done a confirmed E10. That's my point.
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
>
> >Dave hadn't climbed a confirmed E10 when he called Rhapsody E11...
>
> He had been on at least two routes given E10 by the FA & downgraded both of them AFTER success. You point is?
>
> >Dave hadn't climbed a confirmed E10 when he called Rhapsody E11...
>
> He had been on at least two routes given E10 by the FA & downgraded both of them AFTER success. You point is?
So they were not E10. James had done a confirmed E10. That's my point.
In reply to Byron Buck:
It's the JP-centric sensationalising that makes their coverage so unbalanced and hard to take as authoritative. It seemed to me just like a cheap Red Top version of a climbing mag.The coverage given was surely one of the very things that added fuel to the debate.
Hindsight is wonderful; but so is having an opinion at the time and sticking by it.
It's the JP-centric sensationalising that makes their coverage so unbalanced and hard to take as authoritative. It seemed to me just like a cheap Red Top version of a climbing mag.The coverage given was surely one of the very things that added fuel to the debate.
Hindsight is wonderful; but so is having an opinion at the time and sticking by it.
In reply to Mark Sheridan:
Has anyone doubted Equilibrium as being E10?
Could it be if Pearson climbed it within 4 days? I know Neil Gresham spent a year preparing for it.
James
Has anyone doubted Equilibrium as being E10?
Could it be if Pearson climbed it within 4 days? I know Neil Gresham spent a year preparing for it.
James
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
>So they were not E10. James had done a confirmed E10. That's my point.
So, presumably you are saying Dave Macleod has less to base his grading decisions on than James Pearson?
Your point is fairly laughable if that is the case. Whether DM has done a confirmed E10 or not is not really the crux of the argument- it's more about who has the more route mileage at the top end?
Who do you think that favours?
>So they were not E10. James had done a confirmed E10. That's my point.
So, presumably you are saying Dave Macleod has less to base his grading decisions on than James Pearson?
Your point is fairly laughable if that is the case. Whether DM has done a confirmed E10 or not is not really the crux of the argument- it's more about who has the more route mileage at the top end?
Who do you think that favours?
In reply to Wee Davie:
I am not saying Dave has less at all. I am just trying to give a bit more of a balanced viewpoint. Why does it always come down to a competition with you lot?
You could do a lot worse than reading Ste Mac's comments in this article.
http://www.climbmagazine.com/mcclureraventorlinkupl.aspx
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
>
> >So they were not E10. James had done a confirmed E10. That's my point.
>
> So, presumably you are saying Dave Macleod has less to base his grading decisions on than James Pearson?
> Your point is fairly laughable if that is the case. Whether DM has done a confirmed E10 or not is not really the crux of the argument- it's more about who has the more route mileage at the top end?
> Who do you think that favours?
>
> >So they were not E10. James had done a confirmed E10. That's my point.
>
> So, presumably you are saying Dave Macleod has less to base his grading decisions on than James Pearson?
> Your point is fairly laughable if that is the case. Whether DM has done a confirmed E10 or not is not really the crux of the argument- it's more about who has the more route mileage at the top end?
> Who do you think that favours?
I am not saying Dave has less at all. I am just trying to give a bit more of a balanced viewpoint. Why does it always come down to a competition with you lot?
You could do a lot worse than reading Ste Mac's comments in this article.
http://www.climbmagazine.com/mcclureraventorlinkupl.aspx
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
and here
Nov 2: New Thing At Raven Tor by Steve McClure: 9a+? Maybe.
by Steve McClure and UKC News
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=11&year=2008#n45417
You will be deleting your 8a.nu scorecard then!
and here
Nov 2: New Thing At Raven Tor by Steve McClure: 9a+? Maybe.
by Steve McClure and UKC News
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=11&year=2008#n45417
> Why does it always come down to a competition with you lot?
You will be deleting your 8a.nu scorecard then!
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
>Why does it always come down to a competition with you lot?
There's only me here right now, so I have no idea who 'you lot' might be.
I appreciate your input to the argument btw.
It does seem that Dave MacLeod is given quite a large amount of credibility in this gradings pish, but I have to say the basis for his 'cred' seems pretty fair. He's solid at most things and has quite a range of hard FA's and repeats behind him.
I do feel a bit sorry for JP in all this.
Whether DM has unfairly downgraded TWOL or not, it's a shame he has had to witness these backlashes. I would welcome climbers not grading these 'cutting edge' FA's to encourage repeats.
>Why does it always come down to a competition with you lot?
There's only me here right now, so I have no idea who 'you lot' might be.
I appreciate your input to the argument btw.
It does seem that Dave MacLeod is given quite a large amount of credibility in this gradings pish, but I have to say the basis for his 'cred' seems pretty fair. He's solid at most things and has quite a range of hard FA's and repeats behind him.
I do feel a bit sorry for JP in all this.
Whether DM has unfairly downgraded TWOL or not, it's a shame he has had to witness these backlashes. I would welcome climbers not grading these 'cutting edge' FA's to encourage repeats.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Oh yeah, didn't realise ukc had covered it. My bad
I don't have an 8a scorecard Mick.
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
>
> and here
>
> Nov 2: New Thing At Raven Tor by Steve McClure: 9a+? Maybe.
> by Steve McClure and UKC News
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=11&year=2008#n45417
>
> [...]
>
> You will be deleting your 8a.nu scorecard then!
>
> and here
>
> Nov 2: New Thing At Raven Tor by Steve McClure: 9a+? Maybe.
> by Steve McClure and UKC News
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=11&year=2008#n45417
>
> [...]
>
> You will be deleting your 8a.nu scorecard then!
Oh yeah, didn't realise ukc had covered it. My bad
I don't have an 8a scorecard Mick.
In reply to Wee Davie:
I am on about the others from the last few hours. Read back.
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
> There's only me here right now, so I have no idea who 'you lot' might be.
> There's only me here right now, so I have no idea who 'you lot' might be.
I am on about the others from the last few hours. Read back.
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
Sorry Adam. It must be another Adam Lincoln then or someone pretending to be you.
Adam Lincoln - Profile 8a.nu
#1808 Adam Lincoln -00 United Kingdom, Preston, Presentation |, Routes |, Boulders ... 8a Questionnaire. What do you like the most in your climbing life? ...
www.8a.nu/user/Profile.aspx?UserId=1808 -
I wish, all you lot, would get over grades.
They are everything and nothing, important and not, boring and interesting, essential and non-essential.
They aren't going to go away and climbers have always discussed them and will continue to do so.... here, there and everywhere.
Just imagine if we didn't grade routes.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> I don't have an 8a scorecard Mick.
Sorry Adam. It must be another Adam Lincoln then or someone pretending to be you.
Adam Lincoln - Profile 8a.nu
#1808 Adam Lincoln -00 United Kingdom, Preston, Presentation |, Routes |, Boulders ... 8a Questionnaire. What do you like the most in your climbing life? ...
www.8a.nu/user/Profile.aspx?UserId=1808 -
I wish, all you lot, would get over grades.
They are everything and nothing, important and not, boring and interesting, essential and non-essential.
They aren't going to go away and climbers have always discussed them and will continue to do so.... here, there and everywhere.
Just imagine if we didn't grade routes.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Yes, exactly Mick. I don't have an 8a.nu scorecard. It's a logbook. Big difference. A logbook is just that. A log. So when i am away, my friends can keep track of where i am and what i am climbing.
A scorecard, is an entirely different kettle of fish.
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Sorry Adam. It must be another Adam Lincoln then or someone pretending to be you.
>
> Adam Lincoln - Profile 8a.nu
> #1808 Adam Lincoln -00 United Kingdom, Preston, Presentation |, Routes |, Boulders ... 8a Questionnaire. What do you like the most in your climbing life? ...
> www.8a.nu/user/Profile.aspx?UserId=1808 -
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Sorry Adam. It must be another Adam Lincoln then or someone pretending to be you.
>
> Adam Lincoln - Profile 8a.nu
> #1808 Adam Lincoln -00 United Kingdom, Preston, Presentation |, Routes |, Boulders ... 8a Questionnaire. What do you like the most in your climbing life? ...
> www.8a.nu/user/Profile.aspx?UserId=1808 -
Yes, exactly Mick. I don't have an 8a.nu scorecard. It's a logbook. Big difference. A logbook is just that. A log. So when i am away, my friends can keep track of where i am and what i am climbing.
A scorecard, is an entirely different kettle of fish.
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
Well come on update it then, your last climb was last August......
What have you been doing since then?
Your mates want to know!
Good ascents in August by the way.
I bet the experience was very rewarding - let's forget the grades.
Well come on update it then, your last climb was last August......
What have you been doing since then?
Your mates want to know!
Good ascents in August by the way.
I bet the experience was very rewarding - let's forget the grades.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
It is updated. The bouldering section is bang up to date. It's winter.
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
>
> Well come on update it then, your last climb was last August......
>
> Well come on update it then, your last climb was last August......
It is updated. The bouldering section is bang up to date. It's winter.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Lookit......from your 8a.nu scorecard/logbook.
You did some of my problems
Scary last move! ***
08/03/08 Morning Dove White 6C,7A+,7B,7B+ Bishop / The Happys Hard Not V7!
Every Color You Are 6B+,7A,7A+,7B Bishop / The Happys
THERE'S NO WAY MORNING DOVE WHITE IS Font 7B+
Incidently, it is named after Elvis's grandmother who was a native American.
I never graded it, I let others do that, I just enjoy the experience..... and that is why I don't have a scorecard/logbook.
Lookit......from your 8a.nu scorecard/logbook.
You did some of my problems
Scary last move! ***
08/03/08 Morning Dove White 6C,7A+,7B,7B+ Bishop / The Happys Hard Not V7!
Every Color You Are 6B+,7A,7A+,7B Bishop / The Happys
THERE'S NO WAY MORNING DOVE WHITE IS Font 7B+
Incidently, it is named after Elvis's grandmother who was a native American.
I never graded it, I let others do that, I just enjoy the experience..... and that is why I don't have a scorecard/logbook.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Give it a rest Mick, I know you love winding up Adam, but if he wants a logbook and you dont, why does that mean anything? I've met him once before and he seemed like a nice guy, hes not a show off so give him a break....
Give it a rest Mick, I know you love winding up Adam, but if he wants a logbook and you dont, why does that mean anything? I've met him once before and he seemed like a nice guy, hes not a show off so give him a break....
In reply to Mark Sheridan: Been there, done that, got the T shirt, its called how to sell magazines. Neither me nor Ron thought Supersonic was 6c (6a was our guess), but Geoff Birtles knew how to sell magazines!
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h135/alevans_2006/Crags4.jpg
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h135/alevans_2006/Crags4.jpg
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
First ascent of Echo Wall, Ben Nevis, 'Harder than Rhapsody'
Repeats of hardest Lake District climbs; If Six Was Nine E9, Caution E8, Dawes Rides E8, Impact Day E8
1st ascent of To Hell and Back E10, Cairngorm.
1st ascent of Rhapsody E11 7a, possibly the world's hardest trad route
2nd ascent of Divided Years E10 7a, Mourne Mountains, Ireland.
Bit more experience at the top grades than james, also a very rounded and talented individual.
> (In reply to rusty_nails)
> [...]
>
> I wasn't on about the technical grade.
>
> And.
>
> Dave hadn't climbed a confirmed E10 when he called Rhapsody E11...
> [...]
>
> I wasn't on about the technical grade.
>
> And.
>
> Dave hadn't climbed a confirmed E10 when he called Rhapsody E11...
First ascent of Echo Wall, Ben Nevis, 'Harder than Rhapsody'
Repeats of hardest Lake District climbs; If Six Was Nine E9, Caution E8, Dawes Rides E8, Impact Day E8
1st ascent of To Hell and Back E10, Cairngorm.
1st ascent of Rhapsody E11 7a, possibly the world's hardest trad route
2nd ascent of Divided Years E10 7a, Mourne Mountains, Ireland.
Bit more experience at the top grades than james, also a very rounded and talented individual.
In reply to Mark Sheridan:
BINGO!!!
> (In reply to Byron Buck)
>
> It's the JP-centric sensationalising that makes their coverage so unbalanced and hard to take as authoritative. It seemed to me just like a cheap Red Top version of a climbing mag.The coverage given was surely one of the very things that added fuel to the debate.
>
> Hindsight is wonderful; but so is having an opinion at the time and sticking by it.
>
> It's the JP-centric sensationalising that makes their coverage so unbalanced and hard to take as authoritative. It seemed to me just like a cheap Red Top version of a climbing mag.The coverage given was surely one of the very things that added fuel to the debate.
>
> Hindsight is wonderful; but so is having an opinion at the time and sticking by it.
BINGO!!!
In reply to rusty_nails:
And none of that changes what Adam has said. When Rhapsody was graded E11, DM hadn't climbed a confirmed E10. Divided Years and To Hell and Back were after Rhapsody. This doesn't mean JP was right per se, just that his leaping of grades wasn't without precedent and James Pearson isn't exactly a slouch on E9s. He has repeated The Zone and Knockin on Heavens Door. He has also climbed Equilibrium, a confirmed E10.
I have no opinion either way, I am just sick and tired of the DM fan club putting people down. DM is without doubt an incredible climber and comes across as a very nice guy. James Pearson also comes across as a very nice guy and is also a very good climber, although perhaps more specialised than DM. I am not convinced that he deserves the slating he is getting at the moment. Maybe he did inflat the grades for his profile (which would make the flaming valid) but maybe he just felt these ascents were hard and scary. Maybe he trusts gear less than others, maybe Dave M's winter and mountain experience make smaller crags less intimidating? I don't know. I just think we shouldn't be too quick to judge. Both climbers in question are inspirational and highly active on the UK scene which is a great thing to see.
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
> [...]
>
> First ascent of Echo Wall, Ben Nevis, 'Harder than Rhapsody'
> Repeats of hardest Lake District climbs; If Six Was Nine E9, Caution E8, Dawes Rides E8, Impact Day E8
> 1st ascent of To Hell and Back E10, Cairngorm.
> 1st ascent of Rhapsody E11 7a, possibly the world's hardest trad route
> 2nd ascent of Divided Years E10 7a, Mourne Mountains, Ireland.
>
> Bit more experience at the top grades than james, also a very rounded and talented individual.
> [...]
>
> First ascent of Echo Wall, Ben Nevis, 'Harder than Rhapsody'
> Repeats of hardest Lake District climbs; If Six Was Nine E9, Caution E8, Dawes Rides E8, Impact Day E8
> 1st ascent of To Hell and Back E10, Cairngorm.
> 1st ascent of Rhapsody E11 7a, possibly the world's hardest trad route
> 2nd ascent of Divided Years E10 7a, Mourne Mountains, Ireland.
>
> Bit more experience at the top grades than james, also a very rounded and talented individual.
And none of that changes what Adam has said. When Rhapsody was graded E11, DM hadn't climbed a confirmed E10. Divided Years and To Hell and Back were after Rhapsody. This doesn't mean JP was right per se, just that his leaping of grades wasn't without precedent and James Pearson isn't exactly a slouch on E9s. He has repeated The Zone and Knockin on Heavens Door. He has also climbed Equilibrium, a confirmed E10.
I have no opinion either way, I am just sick and tired of the DM fan club putting people down. DM is without doubt an incredible climber and comes across as a very nice guy. James Pearson also comes across as a very nice guy and is also a very good climber, although perhaps more specialised than DM. I am not convinced that he deserves the slating he is getting at the moment. Maybe he did inflat the grades for his profile (which would make the flaming valid) but maybe he just felt these ascents were hard and scary. Maybe he trusts gear less than others, maybe Dave M's winter and mountain experience make smaller crags less intimidating? I don't know. I just think we shouldn't be too quick to judge. Both climbers in question are inspirational and highly active on the UK scene which is a great thing to see.
In reply to Monk: Very, very well said!
In reply to Mark Sheridan:
>"I wonder if Climb magazine feel rather foolish now..."
Not as foolish as I expect you'll feel when Macleod & Pearson reveal that Echo Wall, Walk of Life and all the surround media and internet kafuffle are in fact the same single piece of performance art that they, MacPea (as they, from hence, wish to be known), have been collaborating on for 3 years.
MacPea (speaking in pretentious unison) will say – I explore grades in the same way I explore the physical surface of the Earth. I can feel the shape and texture of the grade grating against my soul more acutely than I feel crystals of rock against my skin.
http://www.shaff.co.uk/films/?year=5#film263
>"I wonder if Climb magazine feel rather foolish now..."
Not as foolish as I expect you'll feel when Macleod & Pearson reveal that Echo Wall, Walk of Life and all the surround media and internet kafuffle are in fact the same single piece of performance art that they, MacPea (as they, from hence, wish to be known), have been collaborating on for 3 years.
MacPea (speaking in pretentious unison) will say – I explore grades in the same way I explore the physical surface of the Earth. I can feel the shape and texture of the grade grating against my soul more acutely than I feel crystals of rock against my skin.
http://www.shaff.co.uk/films/?year=5#film263
In reply to Mark Sheridan:
Boy is this still going...
I will trust James logic as being honest until proved otherwise (even if his youthful judgement maybe slipped in publicising this logic) and that is not at all incompatable with the grade being wrong (if it turns out that way). Even if Dave is right (and he might not be, although I don't suspect his honesty either) the grade seperation is just over two E grades at most (hard E9 vs possible E12) and, as someone else pointed out in another thread, much less of a gap when looked at in the YDS effort vs risk system... ie not untypical in the history of how grades settle with routes that are pushing the envelope.
In terms of grade hyperbole I remember reading about a critic of Gary Gibson who thought he didn't do the E4 Peaches and then claimed the route was only about E1 5c anyway!
Look at the messages this sends to young climbing talent: dont trust the climbing media; whatever you do or say your efforts will be denegrated; consider not grading; consider grading dishonestly (be a hero... work out the E grade best you can then subtract 2 and fiddle the technical grade to suit).
For goodness sake why cant we celebrate the achievement and accept grades are subjective upon subjective at the leading edge, even with honest grading attempts and hence not the real story.
Boy is this still going...
I will trust James logic as being honest until proved otherwise (even if his youthful judgement maybe slipped in publicising this logic) and that is not at all incompatable with the grade being wrong (if it turns out that way). Even if Dave is right (and he might not be, although I don't suspect his honesty either) the grade seperation is just over two E grades at most (hard E9 vs possible E12) and, as someone else pointed out in another thread, much less of a gap when looked at in the YDS effort vs risk system... ie not untypical in the history of how grades settle with routes that are pushing the envelope.
In terms of grade hyperbole I remember reading about a critic of Gary Gibson who thought he didn't do the E4 Peaches and then claimed the route was only about E1 5c anyway!
Look at the messages this sends to young climbing talent: dont trust the climbing media; whatever you do or say your efforts will be denegrated; consider not grading; consider grading dishonestly (be a hero... work out the E grade best you can then subtract 2 and fiddle the technical grade to suit).
For goodness sake why cant we celebrate the achievement and accept grades are subjective upon subjective at the leading edge, even with honest grading attempts and hence not the real story.
In reply to Monk:
Further informative (as ever) comments from Dave Mac on the whole grading issue at http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/2009/01/more-thoughts-from-devon.html
Mark
Further informative (as ever) comments from Dave Mac on the whole grading issue at http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/2009/01/more-thoughts-from-devon.html
Mark
In reply to Offwidth:
Yes, because climbers like you are interested in commenting on this debate!
> (In reply to Mark Sheridan)
>
> Boy is this still going...
>
> Boy is this still going...
Yes, because climbers like you are interested in commenting on this debate!
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Of course, silly me... you and me and everyone; so its in the media's interest to facilitate that. One media source creates a scandal out of a success and the rest can milk it for all its worth.
Of course, silly me... you and me and everyone; so its in the media's interest to facilitate that. One media source creates a scandal out of a success and the rest can milk it for all its worth.
In reply to Offwidth:
The source of top end grade debates are, our grading system and the top climbers who grade their routes - or indeed, even if they don't grade their routes.
The media is now very wide ranging. It used to be just the print magazines. Now it includes top climber blogs, climbing blog commentaries (climbing narc etc), climbing websites, climbing forums, outdoor company websites, and the biggie, climbing films.
There isn't just one media...... and many professional climbers are their own media.....they have their own websites, blogs, films and often shops - hits are as important to a top climber as they are to the climbing media like UKClimbing.com.
No one person or media source creates a scandal, but everyone can comment and ask questions - the climber who climbed and graded the route and everyone else. It is self-propagating and no one can control it.
It's global, almost instant, and a matrix that connects us all whether we are connected by computer or not.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> Of course, silly me... you and me and everyone; so its in the media's interest to facilitate that. One media source creates a scandal out of a success and the rest can milk it for all its worth.
>
> Of course, silly me... you and me and everyone; so its in the media's interest to facilitate that. One media source creates a scandal out of a success and the rest can milk it for all its worth.
The source of top end grade debates are, our grading system and the top climbers who grade their routes - or indeed, even if they don't grade their routes.
The media is now very wide ranging. It used to be just the print magazines. Now it includes top climber blogs, climbing blog commentaries (climbing narc etc), climbing websites, climbing forums, outdoor company websites, and the biggie, climbing films.
There isn't just one media...... and many professional climbers are their own media.....they have their own websites, blogs, films and often shops - hits are as important to a top climber as they are to the climbing media like UKClimbing.com.
No one person or media source creates a scandal, but everyone can comment and ask questions - the climber who climbed and graded the route and everyone else. It is self-propagating and no one can control it.
It's global, almost instant, and a matrix that connects us all whether we are connected by computer or not.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
......and don't underestimate the power of climbing films..... they have a very significant effect and often use grades (and sometimes by dramatic effect but no grades), like all commercial media do, to sell their product.
It's all very human to point fingers and try to find a scapegoat (i've just done it myself), but really we are all in this together and it is just part of climbing as it always has been but these days it is amplified.
You can always ignore it, but that is getting increasingly difficult even if you are not interested.
The root of all this I believe is the need of society to have its heroes and celebrities, are need to be nosey and gossip (the glue that holds us together) and to rank human achievement.
......and don't underestimate the power of climbing films..... they have a very significant effect and often use grades (and sometimes by dramatic effect but no grades), like all commercial media do, to sell their product.
It's all very human to point fingers and try to find a scapegoat (i've just done it myself), but really we are all in this together and it is just part of climbing as it always has been but these days it is amplified.
You can always ignore it, but that is getting increasingly difficult even if you are not interested.
The root of all this I believe is the need of society to have its heroes and celebrities, are need to be nosey and gossip (the glue that holds us together) and to rank human achievement.
In reply to davies00:
It was fairly obvious (to me as an armchair critic) that grading it E12 when he hadn't tried the only E11 was a bit silly. Surely he at least has to have a go on the E11 before beginning to think about grading something E12. That is what I couldn't get my head around.
i might be wrong, but I think JP has been on rhapsody and tried all the moves, satisfied himself that he could do it and left.
Ok he hasnt led it yet, but it makes your assertion that he hasnt tried it and doesnt know what its like incorrect.
Personally I think TWOL must have been overgraded, maybe not by as much as 3 E grades, but overgraded nonetheless. In my opinion a lot of the overgrading by JP boils down to his faith (or lack of) in the gear.
The guys who downgraded the promise tested the gear heavily and KNEW it was good, so to downgrade it to E7 or E8 misses the point somewhat as they KNEW the gear was good and therefore the lower grades proposed possibly are not representative of an onsight no beta ascent.
of course you could maybe argue claiming less faith in the gear after the downgrade is convenient I suppose.
It was fairly obvious (to me as an armchair critic) that grading it E12 when he hadn't tried the only E11 was a bit silly. Surely he at least has to have a go on the E11 before beginning to think about grading something E12. That is what I couldn't get my head around.
i might be wrong, but I think JP has been on rhapsody and tried all the moves, satisfied himself that he could do it and left.
Ok he hasnt led it yet, but it makes your assertion that he hasnt tried it and doesnt know what its like incorrect.
Personally I think TWOL must have been overgraded, maybe not by as much as 3 E grades, but overgraded nonetheless. In my opinion a lot of the overgrading by JP boils down to his faith (or lack of) in the gear.
The guys who downgraded the promise tested the gear heavily and KNEW it was good, so to downgrade it to E7 or E8 misses the point somewhat as they KNEW the gear was good and therefore the lower grades proposed possibly are not representative of an onsight no beta ascent.
of course you could maybe argue claiming less faith in the gear after the downgrade is convenient I suppose.
In reply to fxceltic: the top part of that last post by me was davies00 not me btw
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
A theme discussed further by Dave Macleod with a suggestion for the climbing media (editors and contributors)...
"When the columns are filled with comparisons, medal counts, and dishing dirt this creates an image that this is normal – what it’s all about. Young people coming through believe this, and so it goes on. It doesn’t help that some athletes and media are caught up in the idea that the competition is the end, rather than just the means. It also doesn’t help that a minority of website users who post on discussion forums think that this medium absolves them of responsibility for the words they post and the effects they can have. That is why athletes blogs can be so interesting and popular, because the people themselves get to talk freely about what makes them tick, which is usually the thrill of breaking personal barriers and pushing themselves and the adventures along the way.
This is part of a much bigger problem that ‘getting ahead’ is thought to be a worthy goal in life and will make people happy. Naturally it’s projected right onto sport. Climbing has held out from this for a long time, but it’s in danger for sure.
The reporting media (be it editors or site users) could lead here, instead of always going for the lowest denominator. It might seem like poor commercial sense in the short term – controversy will always receive a peak of interest. But a calmer approach will help bring people on board to collaborate and tell the real stories better, rather than athletes and media suffering from mutual wariness."
from the blog linked above
Mark
>
>
> The root of all this I believe is the need of society to have its heroes and celebrities, are need to be nosey and gossip (the glue that holds us together) and to rank human achievement.
>
> The root of all this I believe is the need of society to have its heroes and celebrities, are need to be nosey and gossip (the glue that holds us together) and to rank human achievement.
A theme discussed further by Dave Macleod with a suggestion for the climbing media (editors and contributors)...
"When the columns are filled with comparisons, medal counts, and dishing dirt this creates an image that this is normal – what it’s all about. Young people coming through believe this, and so it goes on. It doesn’t help that some athletes and media are caught up in the idea that the competition is the end, rather than just the means. It also doesn’t help that a minority of website users who post on discussion forums think that this medium absolves them of responsibility for the words they post and the effects they can have. That is why athletes blogs can be so interesting and popular, because the people themselves get to talk freely about what makes them tick, which is usually the thrill of breaking personal barriers and pushing themselves and the adventures along the way.
This is part of a much bigger problem that ‘getting ahead’ is thought to be a worthy goal in life and will make people happy. Naturally it’s projected right onto sport. Climbing has held out from this for a long time, but it’s in danger for sure.
The reporting media (be it editors or site users) could lead here, instead of always going for the lowest denominator. It might seem like poor commercial sense in the short term – controversy will always receive a peak of interest. But a calmer approach will help bring people on board to collaborate and tell the real stories better, rather than athletes and media suffering from mutual wariness."
from the blog linked above
Mark
In reply to MarkM:
There is no escape from the grade debate and Dave understandably focusses on it - he discusses grades at length on his blog along with his experiences and that is healthy mix.
Similarly as a media we do not focus soley on grades.
Check out the 187 feature articles we published last year:....scroll to the bottom to get the full list and have a poke around.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/older.html?category=1
Similarly, Destination articles:.......choices of where to climb and we have just employed Kevin Avery as Destinations article editor.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/older.html?category=2
Similarly gear reviews and of course our NEWS page which has a very healthy mix of news not all focussed on grades. I think we have over 600 news items last year.
The Photos at UKClimbing.com, over 70,000, of them provide lots of inspiration.
I agree with Dave, top climbers blogs add to the diverse mix which is the climbing media these days and provide a unique insight into the experiences and opinions of the world's top climbing performers.
Mick
There is no escape from the grade debate and Dave understandably focusses on it - he discusses grades at length on his blog along with his experiences and that is healthy mix.
Similarly as a media we do not focus soley on grades.
Check out the 187 feature articles we published last year:....scroll to the bottom to get the full list and have a poke around.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/older.html?category=1
Similarly, Destination articles:.......choices of where to climb and we have just employed Kevin Avery as Destinations article editor.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/older.html?category=2
Similarly gear reviews and of course our NEWS page which has a very healthy mix of news not all focussed on grades. I think we have over 600 news items last year.
The Photos at UKClimbing.com, over 70,000, of them provide lots of inspiration.
I agree with Dave, top climbers blogs add to the diverse mix which is the climbing media these days and provide a unique insight into the experiences and opinions of the world's top climbing performers.
Mick
In reply to Mark Sheridan:
I have it sorted ...
no ones on sighted nowt harder than E7 therefore E7 is the top grade in UK.
Above E7 head point or YDS or sportgrade till E8's are regularly on sighted.
just an idea ...
I have it sorted ...
no ones on sighted nowt harder than E7 therefore E7 is the top grade in UK.
Above E7 head point or YDS or sportgrade till E8's are regularly on sighted.
just an idea ...
In reply to Ian McNeill:
I'm sure Dave Birkett will be well chuffed you just down-graded his two hardest onsights...
> (In reply to Mark Sheridan)
>
> I have it sorted ...
>
> no ones on sighted nowt harder than E7 therefore E7 is the top grade in UK.
>
> I have it sorted ...
>
> no ones on sighted nowt harder than E7 therefore E7 is the top grade in UK.
I'm sure Dave Birkett will be well chuffed you just down-graded his two hardest onsights...
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
"The source of top end grade debates are, our grading system and the top climbers who grade their routes - or indeed, even if they don't grade their routes."
Sounds good but what about things like that 5.12 climbed by John Gill in kletechue (sp?) or the Czec/Saxony climbs or all the other really hard trad ascents that passed the much of the media by over the decades. The hardest routes of a time (in the style of that time) can turn out to have had little or no fanfare. Likewise the downgraded fanfare routes are often not always about climber's dishonesty or ego, despite media finger pointing (that should have pointed straight back at itself).
Responsible media don't encourage idiot questions / nth repeat questions etc as they are boring. Responsible media don't encourage unvalidated assertions etc as they are both boring and might get sued. UKC dont do a bad job in this respect despite what sometimes seems to me to be idiots tripping over themselves to post rubbish or libel.... so don't pretend there is no (editorial) control.
Back to my main argument: I think most top climbers primarily focus on the climb and the full experience that entails and secondly offering all that up for others. The grade usually comes afterwards and despite its complications (often known and sometimes winked at) this will eventually settle and help guide the community, alonside other aspects and information on the climb, to tailor our desires.
"The source of top end grade debates are, our grading system and the top climbers who grade their routes - or indeed, even if they don't grade their routes."
Sounds good but what about things like that 5.12 climbed by John Gill in kletechue (sp?) or the Czec/Saxony climbs or all the other really hard trad ascents that passed the much of the media by over the decades. The hardest routes of a time (in the style of that time) can turn out to have had little or no fanfare. Likewise the downgraded fanfare routes are often not always about climber's dishonesty or ego, despite media finger pointing (that should have pointed straight back at itself).
Responsible media don't encourage idiot questions / nth repeat questions etc as they are boring. Responsible media don't encourage unvalidated assertions etc as they are both boring and might get sued. UKC dont do a bad job in this respect despite what sometimes seems to me to be idiots tripping over themselves to post rubbish or libel.... so don't pretend there is no (editorial) control.
Back to my main argument: I think most top climbers primarily focus on the climb and the full experience that entails and secondly offering all that up for others. The grade usually comes afterwards and despite its complications (often known and sometimes winked at) this will eventually settle and help guide the community, alonside other aspects and information on the climb, to tailor our desires.
In reply to fxceltic:
How did I not hear about this? Are you sure? Cos that would be pretty big news as it would give a bit of justification for grading it E12.
Obviously if it's true then my assertion is correct, and I'd struggle to see how DM and JP could differ so much on the grade of TWOL if they both agree that Rhapsody is E11...
M
> i might be wrong, but I think JP has been on rhapsody and tried all the moves, satisfied himself that he could do it and left.
> Ok he hasnt led it yet, but it makes your assertion that he hasnt tried it and doesnt know what its like incorrect.
> Ok he hasnt led it yet, but it makes your assertion that he hasnt tried it and doesnt know what its like incorrect.
How did I not hear about this? Are you sure? Cos that would be pretty big news as it would give a bit of justification for grading it E12.
Obviously if it's true then my assertion is correct, and I'd struggle to see how DM and JP could differ so much on the grade of TWOL if they both agree that Rhapsody is E11...
M
In reply to davies00: woops, incorrect it is meant to say!
In reply to Offwidth:
That is the nature of climbing thank goodness. It isn't a sport with league tables, although 8a.nu are trying their best to change that.
My first ever article published years ago was based on that; although we have climbers who want to make a living out of climbing and have to get word out about their achievements and provide inspiration and stories (hence some top climbers now have websites and blogs). There are legions of climbers out there who climb at the high levels and in great style and we don't hear a whisper about them....
Ever heard about the 60 year old guy with two fused ankles from Great Harwood who has climbed E7......
There are lots of stories out there like that, not just on rock, but on ice and in the alpine arena.....
And of course, high grades are not the whole story.... style is important too.
Jack has done a great job at UKClimbing.com in trying to give more emphasis on style....
Mick
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
>
> Sounds good but what about things like that 5.12 climbed by John Gill in kletechue (sp?) or the Czec/Saxony climbs or all the other really hard trad ascents that passed the much of the media by over the decades.
That is the nature of climbing thank goodness. It isn't a sport with league tables, although 8a.nu are trying their best to change that.
My first ever article published years ago was based on that; although we have climbers who want to make a living out of climbing and have to get word out about their achievements and provide inspiration and stories (hence some top climbers now have websites and blogs). There are legions of climbers out there who climb at the high levels and in great style and we don't hear a whisper about them....
Ever heard about the 60 year old guy with two fused ankles from Great Harwood who has climbed E7......
There are lots of stories out there like that, not just on rock, but on ice and in the alpine arena.....
And of course, high grades are not the whole story.... style is important too.
Jack has done a great job at UKClimbing.com in trying to give more emphasis on style....
Mick
In reply to chris j:
only 2 on-sights ..?
has anyone else climbed and confirmed the grades of these 2 routes ?
only 2 on-sights ..?
has anyone else climbed and confirmed the grades of these 2 routes ?
In reply to Ian McNeill:
Well, James Pearson for one has onsighted a confirmed E8. You should make sure you are clued up before making comments like above.
> (In reply to chris j)
>
> only 2 on-sights ..?
>
> has anyone else climbed and confirmed the grades of these 2 routes ?
>
> only 2 on-sights ..?
>
> has anyone else climbed and confirmed the grades of these 2 routes ?
Well, James Pearson for one has onsighted a confirmed E8. You should make sure you are clued up before making comments like above.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
thats just waht this statret out as it it
whats the JP E8 done than is it over 5m high ?
thats just waht this statret out as it it
whats the JP E8 done than is it over 5m high ?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I am not having a grading debate Mick. I am clearing up facts that people seem to have got wrong.
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
>
> Adam and Neil
>
> Take your grade debate to another thread please ; o )
>
> Adam and Neil
>
> Take your grade debate to another thread please ; o )
I am not having a grading debate Mick. I am clearing up facts that people seem to have got wrong.
In reply to Ian McNeill:
Yes, End of the affair. And what has height got to do with it? You can't pad out EOTA.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> whats the JP E8 done than is it over 5m high ?
> whats the JP E8 done than is it over 5m high ?
Yes, End of the affair. And what has height got to do with it? You can't pad out EOTA.
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
There are no facts when it comes to grades Adam, you should know that, just millions of grade opinions.
Why are you guys so obsessed with grades?
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
> I am not having a grading debate Mick. I am clearing up facts that people seem to have got wrong.
> [...]
>
> I am not having a grading debate Mick. I am clearing up facts that people seem to have got wrong.
There are no facts when it comes to grades Adam, you should know that, just millions of grade opinions.
Why are you guys so obsessed with grades?
In reply to Ian McNeill:
That's not for you to decide is it. James said it was an onsight. Are you calling him a liar?
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
>
> debatable is E8 on sight beta must have been given ...?
>
> debatable is E8 on sight beta must have been given ...?
That's not for you to decide is it. James said it was an onsight. Are you calling him a liar?
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
I know some Kevin the postman from Luton hes done that and he spent 6hours on LotF with out falling off as well...
I know some Kevin the postman from Luton hes done that and he spent 6hours on LotF with out falling off as well...
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
Which one? He doesn't list it in his "Achievements" section of his blog..... although that only goes up to The Promise, which was early 07 I think. So presumably it was done since then, but I can't think of what it was.
AJM
Which one? He doesn't list it in his "Achievements" section of his blog..... although that only goes up to The Promise, which was early 07 I think. So presumably it was done since then, but I can't think of what it was.
AJM
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Mick, when people are stating wrongly that E8 hasn't been onsighted, then that is a fact that they got wrong. I was pointing this out. Why don't you stop trying to annoy and wind me up and get on with doing what your good at. Running a successful website.
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
> [...]
>
> There are no facts when it comes to grades Adam, you should know that, just millions of grade opinions.
>
> Why are you guys so obsessed with grades?
> [...]
>
> There are no facts when it comes to grades Adam, you should know that, just millions of grade opinions.
>
> Why are you guys so obsessed with grades?
Mick, when people are stating wrongly that E8 hasn't been onsighted, then that is a fact that they got wrong. I was pointing this out. Why don't you stop trying to annoy and wind me up and get on with doing what your good at. Running a successful website.
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
No not a liar... but to E12 with out have a tally of them under your belt is a brave thing to do, is it not especically this day in age what with spies and armchair climbers every where.
The obvious grade to on sight then is E9 is it not then others can be measured from this bench mark ?
No not a liar... but to E12 with out have a tally of them under your belt is a brave thing to do, is it not especically this day in age what with spies and armchair climbers every where.
The obvious grade to on sight then is E9 is it not then others can be measured from this bench mark ?
In reply to Ian McNeill:
Wow, that was a useful post.
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
>
> I know some Kevin the postman from Luton hes done that and he spent 6hours on LotF with out falling off as well...
>
> I know some Kevin the postman from Luton hes done that and he spent 6hours on LotF with out falling off as well...
Wow, that was a useful post.
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
Sorry Adam, will do.
Hands slapped. I apologise.
Just being doing end of year reports all day for clients and I got a bit bored.
You carry on.
Sorry Adam, will do.
Hands slapped. I apologise.
Just being doing end of year reports all day for clients and I got a bit bored.
You carry on.
In reply to Ian McNeill:
Yes. I was sticking to useful facts regarding this thread. How long your postman spent on LOTF is of little importance.
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
>
> and yours was ?
>
> and yours was ?
Yes. I was sticking to useful facts regarding this thread. How long your postman spent on LOTF is of little importance.
In reply to Mark Sheridan: Never mind climb feeling silly what about the man him self I for one have more respect for Dave on his grading just look at the list of his routes climbed plus he must be one the worlds top alrounders .Come on james it was never E12 was it to quote Dave its not E10 never mind E12 .
In reply to davies00: Im pretty sure he went up with John Dunne at the same time or thereabouts as sonnie trotter and steve maclure were up there
I think it was in both climb and climber when they profiled the repeats. I dotn know if it made it onto the news here as he didnt actually lead it.
I think it was in both climb and climber when they profiled the repeats. I dotn know if it made it onto the news here as he didnt actually lead it.
In reply to fxceltic:
Yes we did, and Steve's subsequent ascent.
Jun 6: Rhapsody - "a wee gem for locals with nice moves"
by Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=6&year=2008#n44683
With lots of interest in Rhapsody, Dave MacLeod's magnum opus at Dumbarton Rock, Dave has written what are arguably his most frank words about this route.
Recently the Canadian Sonnie Trotter and a raiding party from the South comprising of Steve McClure, James Pearson and John Dunne have all been on the route and have all made various comments, both publicly and privately, about the line, its quality and the grade of this route which has been given a hypothetical onsight grade of E11, the first time ever.
Dave MacLeod says on his blog:
"Talking of which, I read that folk have been disappointed that Rhapsody has an escape line at a couple of points. I was disappointed with this also when I was working on it, but hey sometimes you can't have everything. It's got good moves, good rock, good difficulty and good situation even if the line is not 100% perfect. What it really is, is a wee gem for locals with nice moves. It's not important anyway – if it appeals to the climber, they will climb it or otherwise..."
You can read more at davemacleod.blogspot.com including good commentary by Dave on his progress on his current Ben Nevis project on Echo Wall.
> (In reply to davies00) Im pretty sure he went up with John Dunne at the same time or thereabouts as sonnie trotter and steve maclure were up there
>
> I dotn know if it made it onto the news here as he didnt actually lead it.
>
> I dotn know if it made it onto the news here as he didnt actually lead it.
Yes we did, and Steve's subsequent ascent.
Jun 6: Rhapsody - "a wee gem for locals with nice moves"
by Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=6&year=2008#n44683
With lots of interest in Rhapsody, Dave MacLeod's magnum opus at Dumbarton Rock, Dave has written what are arguably his most frank words about this route.
Recently the Canadian Sonnie Trotter and a raiding party from the South comprising of Steve McClure, James Pearson and John Dunne have all been on the route and have all made various comments, both publicly and privately, about the line, its quality and the grade of this route which has been given a hypothetical onsight grade of E11, the first time ever.
Dave MacLeod says on his blog:
"Talking of which, I read that folk have been disappointed that Rhapsody has an escape line at a couple of points. I was disappointed with this also when I was working on it, but hey sometimes you can't have everything. It's got good moves, good rock, good difficulty and good situation even if the line is not 100% perfect. What it really is, is a wee gem for locals with nice moves. It's not important anyway – if it appeals to the climber, they will climb it or otherwise..."
You can read more at davemacleod.blogspot.com including good commentary by Dave on his progress on his current Ben Nevis project on Echo Wall.
In reply to Offwidth:
Didn't Dave say WOL was easy E9? He said if6was9 was bench mark & wol was easier hence it's on the easy side of E9? Or have I misunderstood?
> (In reply to Mark Sheridan)
>
> Boy is this still going...
>
> I will trust James logic as being honest until proved otherwise (even if his youthful judgement maybe slipped in publicising this logic) and that is not at all incompatable with the grade being wrong (if it turns out that way). Even if Dave is right (and he might not be, although I don't suspect his honesty either) the grade seperation is just over two E grades at most (hard E9 vs possible E12)
>
> Boy is this still going...
>
> I will trust James logic as being honest until proved otherwise (even if his youthful judgement maybe slipped in publicising this logic) and that is not at all incompatable with the grade being wrong (if it turns out that way). Even if Dave is right (and he might not be, although I don't suspect his honesty either) the grade seperation is just over two E grades at most (hard E9 vs possible E12)
Didn't Dave say WOL was easy E9? He said if6was9 was bench mark & wol was easier hence it's on the easy side of E9? Or have I misunderstood?
In reply to Mark Sheridan:
I've been mulling the 'James Pearson Grade Backlash' problem for a while, and it reminded me of a couple of things that immediately jarred when I first saw them:
1. Firstly the caption: "The Promise: England's hardest trad route", immediately made me think "Really? I mean Really?". Given that it's so short, and Superstition, only metres away is unrepeated (I think), and there are those wacky hard cornish routes, and Rhapsody and etc. etc. etc.
2. The claim that "The Walk of Life is without peer in terms of difficulty, danger etc. etc.". I know that this wasn't said by Pearson and was subsequently retracted, but coming only days after the Echo Wall FA was a rather silly thing for a media savvy climber to have associated with them.
My point, I suppose, is that this sort of thing tends to needle people, so they are less inclined to shrug and ignore when the routes are subsequently downgraded. If, on the other hand, you say "The Promise: my hardest climb/greatest achievement to date", then everyone just says "crikey, this guy is good, so this route must be something else", in much the way the DM's routes have been reported/received.
I don't know any of the protagonists, but a very distantly removed perspective has just cast the impression of someone setting themself up for a fall, which has indeed happened.
I've been mulling the 'James Pearson Grade Backlash' problem for a while, and it reminded me of a couple of things that immediately jarred when I first saw them:
1. Firstly the caption: "The Promise: England's hardest trad route", immediately made me think "Really? I mean Really?". Given that it's so short, and Superstition, only metres away is unrepeated (I think), and there are those wacky hard cornish routes, and Rhapsody and etc. etc. etc.
2. The claim that "The Walk of Life is without peer in terms of difficulty, danger etc. etc.". I know that this wasn't said by Pearson and was subsequently retracted, but coming only days after the Echo Wall FA was a rather silly thing for a media savvy climber to have associated with them.
My point, I suppose, is that this sort of thing tends to needle people, so they are less inclined to shrug and ignore when the routes are subsequently downgraded. If, on the other hand, you say "The Promise: my hardest climb/greatest achievement to date", then everyone just says "crikey, this guy is good, so this route must be something else", in much the way the DM's routes have been reported/received.
I don't know any of the protagonists, but a very distantly removed perspective has just cast the impression of someone setting themself up for a fall, which has indeed happened.
In reply to Mark Sheridan:
I'm not a magazine buyer but I imagine that Climb and others are endevouring to stay afloat with difficulty. Alpinist has already gone down despite its by all accounts exceptional content. It is impossible for a magazine to compete with the speed of reporting that UKC and other internet sites supply - for free. So they have to differentiate themselves one way or another. A headline splash is one way to intrigue a potential customer to part with their cash coupled with the 'exclusive' set-up of Pearson climbing the Groove seemed to me to be an attempt to do that (when I flicked thru it on the shelf!). Presumably Walk of Life was handled the same way. Given what has happened I doubt future 'exclusives' will be handled so brashly. However it seemed to be to be an innovation, albeit misjudged, and at least they are trying to innovate even if it has backfired. How climbing magazines position themselves to get enough customers to part with their cash going forward is a tricky dilemma going forward.
I'm not a magazine buyer but I imagine that Climb and others are endevouring to stay afloat with difficulty. Alpinist has already gone down despite its by all accounts exceptional content. It is impossible for a magazine to compete with the speed of reporting that UKC and other internet sites supply - for free. So they have to differentiate themselves one way or another. A headline splash is one way to intrigue a potential customer to part with their cash coupled with the 'exclusive' set-up of Pearson climbing the Groove seemed to me to be an attempt to do that (when I flicked thru it on the shelf!). Presumably Walk of Life was handled the same way. Given what has happened I doubt future 'exclusives' will be handled so brashly. However it seemed to be to be an innovation, albeit misjudged, and at least they are trying to innovate even if it has backfired. How climbing magazines position themselves to get enough customers to part with their cash going forward is a tricky dilemma going forward.
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